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Discussion on Overweight Rocky Mountain
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Member:
klmcbri
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Posted on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 8:40 am:
My Rocky Mountain horse, Shelby will be 20 this Monday. On April 25th we had shoes put on. He is in a Morrison Rocker shoe due to ringbone. He came up lame really bad over the next few days so I had the farrier out to pull the front shoes. Farrier tested with hoof testers and did not get a reaction that told him anything concrete. The farrier said that he could have been starting into laminitis and the shoe really made the situation worse due to the thickness of it. Assumed with the spring grass we have laminitis. I had just fertilized the pastures an hay field April 22nd right before a good rain. bad idea with this guy. This horse at that time was muzzled but on pasture during the day. Free to graze over night. As far as feed he was getting 1 lb Essentail K in AM and 1 LB Essentail K in PM. Vet came out and gave a jug of DMSO on 2 seperate occasions and Shelby is still on bute 2 x per day. We also started pergolide May 13th. Vet thinks IR heading toward Cushings. No bloodwork to confirm this. I plan to have the bloodwork done as soon as my bank account recovers from this last bill. I now have him on drylot only, NO PASTURE. This has been since April 1st. I did the tape measurement equation last night and he comes out to 1081 lbs. As far as BCS I give him a 6 or 7. He has the cresty neck and has for a long time. He has a slight crease down his back. I can't really feel his ribs unless I press pretty hard. He can't walk well enough yet to start exercise. Now he is on drylot during the morning for his sanity. I bring him in the barn before he starts stomping flies and he gets stemy grass hay in a slow feed net. He nibbles at 1 flake until night when he gets his evening feed. Then I give 2 flakes for overnight while stalled. Our flakes have been weighing about 4 - 5 lbs each. He gets a total of about 4 per day. Although he's in drylot with another horse so I can't be sure he gets his portion of what is fed out there. We trail ride about 1 - 2 times per week for about 3 hours. Although we haven't done that yet due to this lameness. So if he "weighs" 1081 lbs now, and I want him at about a 5 BCS, how much more weight should I try to get off him? The vet said he should weigh about 1000 lbs. I'm just not sure DrOpping another 80 lbs will get hime to the BCS of 5. Any other suggestions on my feeding program would be appreciated.
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New Member:
mogedy
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Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 1:44 pm:
Hi,
I also own a Rocky Mountain Spotted Saddle Horse that is IR and last year was diagnosed with Cushings . He is 13, had his first founder at 6. He foundered again two Autumns ago after a fever. It took 6 mos. and a trip to Tufts to finally get him over it. He also had liver values -GGT and SDH --that were matters of concern. Mistakes I made: Assumed my hay was OK after soaking it...it didn''t "look" rich...Surprise, it was way high in sugar and no amount of soaking would fix it. ( I used Equi-Analytical to test and continue to do so. I had greener hay in the barn at the time that turned out to be lower, the only way to know is to test it.)I switched him to Triple Crown safe starch forage. Not cheap but considering the alternative well worth it...and it's fortified so low-grain/no grain not a concern that he's missing nutrients. (He does get about 2 cups of the triple Crown lite" grain to get all his supplements and meds down.). Mistake 2, not getting enough weight off him. He had DrOpped weight from the first founder, but still was not where he needed to be...Even my local vet at the time later recognized we should have been much more aggressive in our goal. I believe for weight loss the formula/guideline is to feed 1.5% of body weight. I was advised at Tufts to reduce my guy to 1% of his body weight at the time and to feed it out over 3-4 feedings plus a bit of his lite grain.
All low starch, < 11 %NSC. He finally came out of the laminitis that Spring, fortunately with minimal rotation. I started hand walking him as soon as he looked reasonably comfortable. He's gets exercised 6 days a week, lunge or ridden. It's been two years, he's very lean now, can see his ribs, but his insulin is just over normal (lowest ever--- it had peaked somewhere between 120 and 140!)) and he's able to do some grazing on the grass  He's also on Metformin, has been for several years. I can't say what benefit it provides with any certainty. Initially (first 2 months) we had no results. We later increased the dose but at about the same time the diet was reduced so very hard to say which helped. I've kept him on it and so far so good. That was the longest winter of my life As a side note I also used Reitsport's to ice his feet and had him on Lamina Saver. The latter is controversial but I've been reluctant to take him off it or change anything since he's been doing so well. Best of Luck
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 8:31 pm:
I have an EMS/PPID Arabian gelding, 21-years old.
He is doing great on a measure and a half daily of Thyro-L.
NO GRAIN.
1 MG daily of Prascend for the PPID.
This was a major help for him. He has had a history of laminitis and abscesses and generally being "puny."
One measure of SmartPak IR pellets twice daily and a maintenance dose of Equithrive.
He is always in a grazing muzzle when on pasture on my Virginia farm but in FL he can get by without the muzzle except perhaps after a rain/cold weather -- I just monitor him carefully on a daily basis, having learned the signs that laminitis is around the corner, such as increasing fat pads. If I see that happening, I pull him off pasture and dry lot him.
His insulin levels were "sky-high" the last time that he was checked (In March) but that was prior to changing his supplement to Equithrive and adding the IR pellets and pulling away the small amount of feed pellets that he had been eating.
He seems to be doing really well but I will recheck his insulin rate this fall, at the latest.
Good luck to you with your horse.
It is hard managing these special ones but careful management is essential to their very survival.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 6:36 am:
Hello Kathy,
We have a detailed description on feeding overweight horses at HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition. As to how many lbs lost will get you to a condition of 5 is hard to know with certainty but consider this: you are not trying to reach a certain number but a certain condition. You will know it when you get there.
DrO
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Member:
klmcbri
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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 8:27 am:
Mary,
Thanks for the info. My hay analysis was from equi-analytical also. There is not a line for NSC but I think I have to add 2 other lines on the report together to get that or something. I just have to find the "key" to the report. I was going on the nutritionist saying it was good for these guys since I had told her of the PPID and laminitis issues. So much to learn. He definately will get more exercise when he is able to walk better. Looked better this morning, maybe things are turning around.
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Member:
klmcbri
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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 8:30 am:
Vicki,
I've read several of your posts. Great details and information. I asked the vet about Prescend vs. the pergolide he dispenses. He says they are the same the Prescend is just more expensive. However with your results I will investigate further. I will look at the other supplements you suggested also and read more.
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Member:
klmcbri
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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 8:38 am:
DrO,
Thanks, I'll re-read the article again. I get more out of them the more times I read them. I talked to the vet yesterday and he said to stop all grain. The Essential K is a low startch pellet from Tribute. You mention it in one of your other articles discussing low sugar/starch feeds. The vet recommended he loose another 200#'s after I explained my weight estimation process. I will go off BCS and the weight. I just wanted the weight so that when we finally gets there, I'll know approximately what he needs to stay at. Is doing the wt measurement once a month sufficient? I saw where DianeE does hers weekly. Interesting that this horse who is usually really gassy is not as gassy now that he is on drylot...hmmmm what does that tell us? I originally thought the gassiness was from nsaids. Guess not as he is on bute right now. I'll be in Lexington, KY this weekend and vet told me to pick up some soft ride boots at Rood and Riddle to give him more comfort. Ugh..going to have to get some cattle to keep from having to mow the grass!
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New Member:
mogedy
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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 9:39 am:
You're welcome Kathy, I used the Soft- ride boots that whole winter and they were a very big helpTo calculate NSC I used WSC plus Starch on their report under the "as sampled" column. Looks like you're at 11.4 which is over the recommendation for a horse in trouble. It's close enough though that if it were me I'd try feeding it after soaking it. "Safer grass" site is well respected for her info and gives a pretty detailed explanation on NSC's...perhaps too detailed https://www.safergrass.org/pdf/testing_for_sugar.pdf
I can't always get low starch hay, it varies from year to year which is why I continue him on the safe starch forage. I had Canadian hay that was very "stemmy" the year he foundered and discovered that my NSC was around 18% ...pretty much "cotton candy" and looking at it you'd never guess. There are sooo many variables that affect the sugars in hay...type of grasses, cutting and growing conditions...How much sugar is removed by soaking is also controversial and if memory serves
me maximum removed was 20% but I don't think you always get that much out so it's a bit unreliable. Much more exact to feed something that is already in the right range.
I forgot to mention my guy is and has been on Thyro-L also which I'm sure helped with the weight reduction.
Things do get better once the weight is off
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, May 25, 2013 - 11:33 am:
Kathy,
I have been told that the efficacy of the compounded Pergolide may vary because it is much more subject to losing potenncy over time. It simply is not as stable.
Also, compounded drugs are not subject to the same kind of controls, so the amount of ingredients in them can sometimes vary much more, and in some cases safety may be a real issue.
Handling Pergolide in a powdered form supposedly can also be much more of a hazard for humans due to potential heart valve and (I believe) fertility issues.
It also can cause eye and lung irritation.
The ease of handling, feeding and increased safety of the Prascend is what made me ask my Veterinarian to prescribe it for me instead of the compounded form.
In my experience, this is one of those cases where I am indeed "Getting what I am paying for."
I paid $100 for 60 tablets recently, which will last me for 2 months.
And at least in the case of my horse, I have had better results with the Prascend.
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Hay analysis report