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  Discussion on Unable to feed hay
Author Message
Member:
klmcbri

Posted on Friday, Sep 6, 2013 - 4:30 pm:

OK, so I care for a horse that has been coughing for a while now. The vet suggested soaking the hay. I have been trying that but it is not really helping the cough. In addition with the warm temps the hay is getting moldy. I keep it in a hay bag which makes it easier to handle the wet hay and also I can hang it in the shed where he spends most of his time. This horse is Cushingoid and IR. He is on pergolyde. He is a BCS of 3.5 as of July 19th according to the nutritionist. He has improved some since we changed the feed plan, but not where we need to be. Submitting a hay sample for 2013 hay next week. Current concern is the cough. I feed him 6 lbs 8% protein ration balancer, 4 lbs alfalfa pellets over 3 feedings. The hay is there for him to munch on during the rest of the day. He is on dry lot 7/24. If I eliminate all hay from his diet, what will he do all day? Is this safe w.r.t colic? I've heard it is best to keep hay in front of them all day so the intestines are constantly working as a full intestine doesn't twist. This in addition to fighting boredom. Thoughts?
New Member:
mogedy

Posted on Friday, Sep 6, 2013 - 7:41 pm:

Try using Triple Crown Safe Starch forage. I originally started using their Grass Forage years ago for horses with respiratory allergies. As time went on I kept using it to supplement their regular hay simply because the horses liked it, it kept weight on and was fortified. I then had two horses with Cushings and switched to their Safe Starch forage. I currently have a Cushing and IR horse who has it as his main source of food. It is low/no dust. It doesn't last as long as hay, they can eat it a bit faster but serves the same purpose as far as keeping fiber in their system.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 8, 2013 - 6:36 pm:

Hello Kathy,
What did the veterinarian diagnose your horse as having that is causing the cough?

You might want to look at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Chronic Cough Without Fever for an approach to undiagnosed chronic coughs. There is a very complete discussion about feeding horses that cough because of hay molds and dust at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Heaves & Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease.
DrO
Member:
tentpeg

Posted on Monday, Sep 9, 2013 - 5:04 am:

Still unable to start new discussion.
Have spent lot of time.
Feel the site needs to be made more user friendly, if I may say so.
All those things/steps listed under 'Start New Discussion' just not working.
I am UNABLE to find the 'button' at the 'end'.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 10, 2013 - 7:00 pm:

tentpeg, to start a new discussion you need to back up to the article page to which this discussion belongs. You are currently on Kathy's discussion page titled Unable to feed hay which is a daughter page to the article Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. To go to the article page use the navigation bar at the top of this page and click on the mother page Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. You will be taken up one level to the article. After the article you will find a list of already existing discussions (including this one). At the bottom of that list of discussion is the start a new discussion button.

The idea is if you have a question you use the menus to get to the article, read the article, then look to see if there are any preexisting discussions that address your specific concerns and if not when you get to the bottom you start a new discussion of your own.

If you have been using "search" only to navigate you don't see this organized structure to the site. Try finding information using the organized menus to zero in to your topic and I think the above organized structure becomes quite apparent.
DrO
Member:
klmcbri

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 11, 2013 - 10:49 am:

Well, the diagnosis via email is "allergy to hay". I'm taking that to be allergy to mold spores on the hay as discussed in the COPD article. This is the first year this 16y.o. has had this cough. Since my original post I have had the nutritionist take a hay sample and we discussed his thinness and the hay cough. Nutritionist said that beet pulp is actually the first ingredient in the pellets he is getting so more of that really won't help with getting some more weight on him. Then we discussed the hay soaking issues and she said it may take a month of doing that before he stops coughing. I added a fat supplement to his diet on Tuesday and she agreed with that. It seems they don't recommend only feeding concentrates, i.e. don't eliminate hay. The cough has improved since last Friday when I was very discouraged and starting to panic. So the improvement is good. He was also ridden on a trail ride at a walk for 2.5 hours on Saturday and he only coughed a little bit, after going up a hill. This is improved from the coughing fits he was having last week while standing in the shed. We rested him at the top until his breathing came back to normal. I have noticed that he appears to really flex his abdomen when breathing now. I can't hear him breathing standing next to him, but compared to the other horses at rest he appears to really flex hard in the flank area when breathing at a stand still. The vet comes out next week for fall shots so I'm eager to hear what he thinks of any "lung sound changes". I spoke with the vet on the phone this morning and he mentioned the high humidity we are having and that with cooler temps and continued hay soaking that may alleviate the issue. He also mentioned ventapulmin treatment. Looking at what that is now via the COPD article, looks like prednisilone is more effective to treat COPD. Is the ventapulmin more to help alleviate the apparent effort he is exerting to breathe? Going back to read the article again.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 15, 2013 - 8:48 pm:

Kathy, assuming this is a case of common COPD it is not the hay causing the problem it is the mold spores that need to be eliminated. There are many sources of forage that do not have hay mold. The COPD article discusses these. Experiments on hay soaked in water, and my personal experience, has shown there is often not enough change to reduce most horse's allergic pneumonia, but this is in the article too and the published research for this conclusion is found at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Respiratory System » Heaves & Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease » Research Summary: Reducing Respiratory Dust Concentrations.

Ventipulmin (clenbuterol) which is explained in the COPD article has a more complete treatment at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Miscellaneous Drugs » Clenbuterol.
DrO
Member:
klmcbri

Posted on Monday, Sep 23, 2013 - 1:34 pm:

So Wednesday 9/18 the vet came out to give fall shots. Listened to Drummer (coughing horse) and said heaves. He "pushes" on exhale and nostrils appear flared most of the time. Vet said he is about a 1.5 out of 5. Vet said he doesn't want to use prednisilone due to Cushings/IR issues. So I talked to Drummer's owner and we discussed getting some Triple Crowne safe starch forage. Now the issue is separating the 2 horses. So if one gets Triple crowne and the other can have regular hay then I need to at least separate them when the Triple crowne is served. I can feed 3 times per day, not an issue as I work from home. He is already fed 3 rations of his concentrate as he is still under weight. I'm used to putting out 2 - 3 flakes of hay for 2 horses morning, noon, and evening and they munch until gone. Now I cannot leave hay out, is this 3 feeding and then nothing but hanging out in a drylot in between feedings OK for thier digestive system? Friday I tried to feed Drummer outside and the other 2 in the barn, that didn't work. Drummer just stood there and didn't eat. Today Drummer got his lunch outside and ate it but I had to remove Shelby so Drummer could eat in peace. Will feed everyone outside tonight. I guess hubby and I will have to figure out how to divide the drylot so both horses can get to the shed and water but only Drummer gets the Triple Crowne and Shelby gets our hay. Hopefully after the fall surge in grass growth maybe in December I can put Shelby(had laminitis in the spring) back on pasture with Arthur. Then Drummer is the only one on drylot. It kills me that I have 6 acres of beautiful pasture and only one horse can eat it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 - 5:10 pm:

Splitting the horses total forage daily feed into 3 portions will be OK but I am confused with all the pasture why supplementing forage is necessary.
DrO
Member:
klmcbri

Posted on Monday, Sep 30, 2013 - 9:00 am:

Dr. O,
According to the nutritionist I'm working with (Tribute feeds). It is best not to put a Cushingoid horse on pasture. I'll upload the article he referred me to. I'd love to get this guy on pasture but I'm concerned about laminitis. He accidently got out on my pasture last October for about 3 hours and had a laminitis flare. Now obviously I would not start him on 3 hours but I'm thinking he is one that cannot handle pasture. What is your experience with Cushingoid horses and pasture? My pasture is Orchard grass, endophyte free fescue. Has some larger areas of clover that has invaded over the years. I mow it every 2 - 3 weeks.
application/pdfCushingoidPlan
Nutritional-Suggestions-for-the-Cushings-SynDrOme-Horse.pdf (63.3 k)
Member:
mogedy

Posted on Monday, Sep 30, 2013 - 1:44 pm:

As an aside Kathy, the best way to determine whether and when he can go on pasture is to have it tested...Equi-analytical can test it, go to their web page for instructions. It's not expensive. Basically you clip, freeze and then send samples. I had a total of three Cushings horses, all of whom tolerated some pasture (all took Pergolide) , two were actually fine on pasture. The third also has IR and is more sensitive (the only one that ever foundered) but has tolerated it this past year. (Has this horse been tested for IR?) He is exercised regularly and kept lean. I limit his time on it in Spring and Fall. Equi-analytical is an invaluable resource for testing NSC in your hay also. Without testing it's a guessing game. I made a big mistake years ago making assumptions about what the content in my hay and pasture was based on some very generalized recommendations when all of these metabolic issues are far more complicated.
Member:
klmcbri

Posted on Monday, Sep 30, 2013 - 2:09 pm:

Mary,
Thanks for the info. Equi-analytical tested my hay so I will look at the procedure for testing the pasture. It would be great if he could go out on pasture some times. As far as testing for IR,the vet did a gluscose/Insulin test on him and it was 74 said it should be between 5-20. ACTH was 43. My second cutting hay was much higher NSC at 15.9. First cutting was 5.5 NSC. Not sure how that relates to pasture if at all. More info to think about. How much are are your affected horses on pasture?
Member:
mogedy

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 1, 2013 - 9:38 am:

Kathy, it depends. Spring and fall I restrict the IR/Cushings horse to about two hours. He can go on it quite a bit in the heat of the summer. There are times of day when the sugars are lower, and there are times of year such as the heat of summer. Go to Safer Grass's website. She has all kinds of good info on grass and founder. An Insulin reading at 70 for my guy puts me in caution mode. ( He's only ever been as low as 49, full laminitis one winter he was at 130 ) I think the horse you are treating could be IR too ...I'd ask your vet if that is part of the diagnosis. I had two that were just Cushings, their insulin was OK, and they were full time on pasture with the Pergolide and never had laminitis. I test my guy frequently so I know where we're at and keep him very lean and exercised.
Member:
mogedy

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 1, 2013 - 5:22 pm:

Kathy, I also meant to say that your 1st cut is golden for an IR or Cushings horse, very hard to find NSC that low where I am. I have yet to test my own pasture, but I would think the NSC values would need to be in the same low range recommended for hay and grain...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 2, 2013 - 7:28 pm:

Kathy,
Most Cushing horses do not have founder and do fine on pasture. Those that do have to be treated with pergolide and may require management as described in the founder section on pasture associated founder.
DrO
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