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Discussion on HORSE WON'T EAT AND DEHYDRATED-PLEASE HELP
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New Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Jul 4, 2005 - 8:14 pm:
Hopefully someone can help, our vets are stumped. We have a 26 yr old mare that had joint problems in the hock a week ago and we finally got her up after she layed down. We are in Phoenix and the temperature has been in the 110 deg range. She was dehydrated although she didn't want food nor water for two days, then she went down again. We were at the point of putting her down though when we got her up she seemed fine. The vet returned and gave her hock injections which seemed to work. Still, she has refused food and water for 6 days now. The vet put her on IVs and has tried liver medication since they thought that may be a problem. A blood work up was done with nothing too concerning other than dehydration. The Bilirubin was up a bit so the vet will be looking into that a bit further. We added a misting system to help keep her pen cool and continue to pump IVs into her. She typically eats quite a bit of hay and supplements per day and this is highly unlike her. We thought that the temperature may be affecting her, although she's lived here all her life and has never had problems w/ heat. She plays w/ the water and food but nothing is going down. The vet has checked her stomach and she's passing fine (very little due to lack of food). Her teeth were checked, they are fine. Everything seems to be working and has many vets here stumped. I can't mention all the horse diseases here, but the vets say she is showing no signs of anything. Does someone have any ideas, we sure don't want to put her down, but pumping four bags of fluids a day and liver meds doesn't seem to be working. BTW, when she is hydrated w/ IVs, she seems fine and a bit frisky. She though stands in the heat and looks interested in food/water but isn't eating/drinking..just picking. Lastly, she has been given pain meds for the hock and that doesn't seem to be bothering her anymore. She's been on Banamine for five days to see if this would encourage her to eat, no luck. Many Thanks, Steve & Donna
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 7:43 am:
Hi Steve & Donna
A wild guess - have you checked for abscesses or some other sort of blockage in throat? (We had similar situation at our barn a few weeks ago - it turned out to be a huge abscess at the very back of the mouth/top of throat)
Good luck...
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New Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 10:40 am:
Our vet has checked out both (mouth and throat)and both are fine. She is low on red blood cells, we're wondering if she's feeling lousy because of this. We will try replenishing to get the cell count up, not sure what to do at this point. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 12:41 pm:
Being on medication and banamine on an empty stomach has any one thought of ulcers, she might not have any but I am sure my stomach would be very upset being pumped full of meds and not eating.
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Member:
Annes
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 12:59 pm:
This may sound strange, but has the vet specifically checked her tongue? When my gelding had EPM it affected the ability to use his tongue. It was like his tongue was paralyzed. He would try to drink but could not get the water up in his mouth to swallow. His red cell count was also down so we gave him Red Cell liquid. He had IV's for 7 days before he regained the use of his tongue. (raising his water bucket to his chin level helped too).He was dehydrated to the point of colic when the vet discovered the problem with his tongue. I hope you find the answer for your mare. Good luck.
P.S. The low red cell count made my horse weak and lethargic.
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New Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 1:25 pm:
Our horse isn't showing any signs of ulcers so far as the vet can see. She wouldn't eat/drink prior to any meds given to her. On the tongue, when the vet examined her, her tongue seemed to be moving fine....since she doesn't like anything in her mouth and fiddles around while being examined. She eats a few bites of food and her water trough only goes down about an inch per day (temps are in the 108 range here in Phoenix) which is odd since regularly she drinks a lot. I can see where the red cell liquid may work, the wife is out getting them as we speak. Thing is if the red cells work, what's the cause? She's showing no signs of blood in the urine/feces to indicate an internal bleed. If this is it (internal bleed) I'm wondering if struggling to get up when she went down caused her to rip something inside? Many Thanks, I'll keep you posted...Steve
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 3:13 pm:
Steven the only thing we know from your post is your horse will not eat or drink, this is not related to the hock, in fact I don't think the hock problem is the reason she was laying down unless both hocks are very bad, horses attempt to stand even with a broken leg. It sounds like a potential impaction or other colic problem but there are many possibilities. Instead of hydrating through relatively expensive IVs, why not go the nasogastric tube route? You can also create a slurry with vitamins, minerals, and some alfalfa pellets for nutrition that can go down this way. If no one there can diagnose the problem I recommend you refer her. I would be interested in what the hematocrit (or PCV) was and if it is low what lab values are you basing the signs of dehydration on?
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 4:54 pm:
Thanks Doc, we've been monitoring fluid input on our mare constantly which is next to none. My wife got her some "sweet feed" today and she ate about a 1/2 of a small coffee can and that's it, very little if any water. We agree that the hock isn't the problem and we've had four vets consulted and our primary vet has been coming out to check on her and DrOp off more Banamine. The vet has examined her because our mare does colic easily, though no impaction, at to make sure, our vet tubed her with mineral oil/water and she's passing fine. In terms of fecal output....maybe one small pile a day if any, plus a rectal exam was done with no indicators. I'm trying to get a hold of my wife as I post to get more info on the blood work. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Paix
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 5:45 pm:
Hi Steve,
This all sounds terribly scary. Seems as tho you, your wife and the Vets are doing everything you can to try to figure out what is going on.
You mentioned she took in a tiny bit of sweet feed...
I wonder if she likes ice and would play with it and crunch it about getting some water in her...?
Also, I wonder about offering her some well soaked beet pulp, also getting water and nutrition in her.
Both these things helped one of my horses when he was dehydrated and ran a fever of over 106 for 10 days. He didnt totally refuse food & water, tho...
Just thot Id share what worked for my guy while your trying to figure this out.
Another thot... Could she have been exposed to any kind of toxic plant/insect/chemical where maybe she didnt ingest enuff to make her FULLY sick, but is suffering chronically...?
BTW, it took about a month for my guy to fully recover from his experience that was never diagnosed. I sure hope she comes around soon.
Take care
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 7:13 pm:
Thanks Dina for the info, our mare is staying hydrated only w/ IVs at the moment. I checked the water trough this afternoon and little to none is gone. She's picking at the food, takes a bite or two and that's it. We went ahead with the Red Blood Cell replenishment today and we'll see if this helps. Steve
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 5, 2005 - 7:25 pm:
DrO: The PCV was at 31%, the range is 35-52%. The other blood test readings that were out of range were; AST 668 IU/L (range: 180-570), T. Bilirubin 4.4 MG/DL (range: 0.1-2.5), Glucose 142 MG/DL (range: 70-120), CPK 2188 IU/L (range: 20-500), RBC 6.3 (range: 6.5-10.5), MCHC 38% (range: 31-37) and of course the PCV as mentioned. The vet did put her on some type of liver medication to see if there would be a difference, but no change. The glucose was high, though the vet attributed it to stress. Not too sure on the other lab results, but it does seem that she's acting somewhat lethargic. At first when this all happened she would pace in her stall back/forth to the water trough which we attributed to pain from the hock, since then the pain meds have helped tremendously. She does look like she takes a mouth full or two of food and that's about it. Highly unlike her, she's quite the eater/drinker when healthy and has never turned down food. Any ideas? Just feeling helpless that we can't do more! Many Thanks, Steve
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 7:32 am:
Though a little low this PCV is not low enough to cause any clinical signs, neither does any of this work indicate dehydration Steven. It is usual for bilirubin to rise when a horse goes off feed and the CPK to rise when a horse lays down a lot. I agree that the glucose can be stress but also older horses developing Cushings become insulin resistant and may have persistently high glucose values. There is not much here to hang our hat on I am afraid, but neither do I see a reason to be worried from this alone. What are the horses vital signs (pulse, respiration, and capillary refill time).
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 10:41 am:
We received a call back from our vet yesterday (Tuesday) and she mentioned that she talked to the lab and came to the conclusion of two possibilities. One, that she has an ulcer, two the worse case that she has stomach cancer. She did eat/drink a bit yesterday which is encouraging. Our vet wants to try "Gastro-Guard" I believe it's called (or a generic med similiar)for a few days and see if she responds. If not, we will take her to the hospital for scoping. Her vitals seem fine, when I spoke to the vet a few days ago, will find out more on the capillary refill time. With the Banamine, red blood cell replenishment, she seems a bit more interested in food/water, hopefully we're getting close to some type of conclusion. Again this morning she was down and we had trouble getting her up. Hoping more that she's just weak from lack of nourishment (which we are dealing with) instead of the hock problem re-occurring. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Trouble
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 11:20 am:
Steve,
I don't know if your mare likes watermelon or not, but when my gelding doesn't seem to be drinking enough water, I cut up pieces of watermelon and put them in a bucket full of water. As he eats the watermelon (which is mostly water anyway) he also has to drink some water to get it.
Don't know if this would work for you. Just an idea. I wish you luck in getting your mare back to good health.
Lisa
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 11:41 am:
Or apples...in a shallow bucket and just keep filling it with water
Good luck to you!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 3:02 pm:
We've given her everything she likes to eat, regularly she's a avid eater/drinker so this isn't the case. Kinda like when you feel sick and everything either doesn't look or taste good, no matter how much you like it, and of course the taste of meds probably doesn't help, no matter how much you mask the med's bitterness with stuff she likes. We're going to keep trying to a certain extent with IVs, ulcer meds and quite possibly with more hock injections, but we can't help looking at what the "quality of life" will be for her if we continue with the course of action we are taking now. Many Thanks All, Steve
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 6:46 pm:
Good luck with your mare, Steve.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 7:31 pm:
Many thanks for all the input from everyone, I'll let you know what our next course of action is. As of getting home today, our mare Rebecca is eating/drinking very little, we should be getting a call from the vet today to see what the next step will be. Steve
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 9:23 pm:
I have my fingers crossed for you and your mare, Steve. She is very lucky to have you.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 6, 2005 - 10:54 pm:
Steve, My wishes for luck go along with everyone else's. Nothing is worse than the "not knowing".
Prayers go your way. Shirl
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 7, 2005 - 4:18 am:
Dear Steve,
We have heat waves here in Calif of course not nearly as bad as in your state. The water misters are a great idea. Do you hose her down as well?
Is it possible she has lost a close companion? Or moved to another stall? Or does she have a companion she is close with? I have found when my horse is not well he covets his time with his 28 yr old mare. They are definitely in love.
I know this must sound crazy but I have seen horses health turn around and get better when they have a companion whether it is a goat, a mini, an older horse, or even a dog, cat or chicken.
The idea of watered down beet pulp(which is supposed to be soaked I've been told for 24hrs prior to feeding), watermelon mashes, or even a watery bran mash with some molasses and or carrots for flavor may help.
Another idea may be to ice her legs down a couple of times a day to see if this makes her comfortable enough to eat and drink.
I feel for you and your horse. I hope she turns around soon.
Good Luck,
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 7, 2005 - 7:57 am:
Steve I still do not read anything that accounts for the symptoms your horse is displaying and until we know the cause cannot accurately prognose and treat. If there is no response to the omeprazole suggest a second (or will this be the fifth?) opinion.
DrO
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 7, 2005 - 9:52 am:
Steve,
My heart goes out to you ... my thoughts and prayers are with you and your dear horse. Looks like you are doing everything you can do to help her!
Nancy
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 7, 2005 - 10:54 am:
Our vet was back out last night and administered some meds (similar to GastroGaurd) to see if maybe this is related to an ulcer. Our mare has had a long history with colic, although other than not eating/drinking she's not showing other signs. The vet again checked her digestive system and it is active (good). Her fecal output is about two small piles in 24 hrs and urine continues to be dark/thick. We went ahead and gave her two bags of IVs last evening. The vet mentioned that it was strange that she shows very few signs of significant weight loss. Once the IVs were done and the meds administered, she took a few bites of a "buffet" we put out for her, looking like she wants to eat, and paces back/forth to the water trough after one bite and wetting her lips but still not drinking. We turned her loose last evening and she was quite active (obviously not wanting to be caught for more meds). BTW when this was occurring last weekend, I did install a misting system in the stalls which seems to keep it cooler, although our mare rather stand to the rear of the stall in the heat, go figure that. The reason that we haven't taken her to the hospital yet is simply that the hospital would be doing exactly what we are doing now (giving IVs, meds..)....being at home is less stressful for her. If all doesn't work, we will have her taken to the hospital Monday for scoping and ultrasounds. Thanks you all for your encouragement!! Steve
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 7, 2005 - 6:35 pm:
It is not the therapy I am interested in so much Steven, as that has just been symptomatic, I am interested in a fresh set of eyes on this horse with the possibility of a diagnosis being made.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Friday, Jul 8, 2005 - 12:00 pm:
I agree, we decided to have her trailered to the hospital today since the ulcer meds prescribed a few days ago haven't worked. She has been eating about a one pound can of pellets/grain for the past two days and drinking very little if any water. We have continued the IVs. The hospital plans to scope her this morning, hopefully we'll get some answers. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Friday, Jul 8, 2005 - 5:12 pm:
Our mare is back from the hospital. Diagnosis with scoping was an ulcer. We were told that ulcers have a degrees of severity, which are mare's is somewhat higher on the scale. The meds which were prescribed (a generic to "GastroGuard")is limited on what it can do....so we were told to go directly with GastoGuard. She did eat/drink a bit after returning today from the hospital. We're still somewhat concerned because no can tell us a "cause" of how this occurred, since the symptoms occurred before she was stressed out from the laying down episodes. Well at least she's still with us for now. Steve
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jul 8, 2005 - 5:18 pm:
It's a relief to know in which direction to expend your energies. So glad you were able to get her into the clinic. Best wishes to you and your mare as you folks continue giving her the best care you can give.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jul 8, 2005 - 7:13 pm:
I have a mare that went slowly off her feed.. started with the AM feeding... then went completely off... within 4 days of the GASTROGARD she was back on her feed... becus of the expense, I have put her on 7 days full dose, and 8 days of 1/2 dose... I hope this will help as the cost is really prohibitive...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Paix
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Posted on Friday, Jul 8, 2005 - 10:28 pm:
DrO,
What is the thinking abt H.Pylori and ulcers in horses?
Seems all I can find on the subject is that H.Pylori hasnt been isolated in horses stomachs, but have studies been done with a double antibiotic treatment for a specific duration... in conjunction with an acid inhibitor?
seems so simple - there must be studies out there?
thanks for ur time.
Steve -- I hope ur mare improves soon! Its a relief to know whts going on, huh.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 9, 2005 - 9:06 am:
Attempts have been made to isolate H. pylori in horses in association with stomach ulcers with no luck so far. There are some unique features of the equine stomach and we think we are beginning to understand the cause of ulcers in performance horses see the article on Gastric Ulcers for more.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 10, 2005 - 2:29 am:
Hope the GastroGuard works!! So far she's on Day 2 of the GastroGuard still not eating. She drank quite a bit after returning from the hospital, but again has failed to drink since yesterday. The pattern is that when she's sedated heavily, she will eat a bit and drink. After she's fully cognitive, she again shows no interest. Will have to continue IV therapy again tomorrow. In addition to GastroGuard (1 tube/day), she's getting 4 grams of Sucralfate/3 times per day, 240 mL of Double Strength Mylanta per day. I can't figure out that if GastroGuard such a great thing, why do we still have to supplement with other meds...especially the Mylanta? Steve
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 10, 2005 - 7:48 am:
Hi, Steve. You are wonderful to do all you're doing for your mare.
FYI, my mare took about 7-8 days before responding to Gastrogard. I've heard of other horses taking a few days longer,
I wish you and your mare the very best.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 10, 2005 - 8:07 pm:
Many thanks Ellie, we're continuing with the GastroGaurd and all the other meds, also giving her IV fluids today. I hope this stuff works, for as much as the vets brag about it. It's pricey, but well worth it if it works. We also noticed a lump on her stomach that developed over the past few days...almost looks like a hernia, although the scope didn't disclose anything other than the ulcer. BTW, did you or anyone else get a "cause" of the ulcer, what triggers it? Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 10, 2005 - 10:10 pm:
Hey Steve,
Been following your posts ... and I can tell you from personal experience how great Gastrogard is. It keeps my horse alive! He developed ulcers from many months of stall rest, along with pain meds, and multiple surgeries for an eye problem. His eye problem was resolved six months later but he was left with devastating gastric ulcers. He has to stay on a maintenance dose of the stuff, but many horses do just fine with the sixty day dose, and then management, such as free turnout with grazing, breaking up meals into three or even more feedings, high fiber diet! Good luck, and I hope your mare turns around really soon for you. My horse turned around, as far as feeling better, within two days with treatment. And now, if he has an "episode", he seems to turn around within hours of administration of Gastrogard!
I'll keep reading your posts, and pray for healing!
Nancy
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 12:28 am:
Nancy, did you scope your horse to know for sure about the ulcers..? With my mare we went by her symptoms.. I worry about the expense and not being able to put her on the complete program.. .. she is out in pasture at least 10 hours a day / or night .. I keep hay in front of all my horses all the time.. .. but she is a busy body .. has to be aware of everything going on in or out of the barn... I think that is what caused her to either ulcer or the beginnings of it...
Steven please keep us up dated...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 7:07 am:
The reason for the Mylanta and possible causes for ulcers in horses are explained in the article Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Gastric Ulcers » Gastric Ulcers in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 10:28 am:
The day our mare begins eating/drinking, you can be assured that I'll let you know. She has been nibbling after giving her the Mylanta, but not eating significantly. We're keeping our fingers crossed, just hoping that this spell of above 110 degree temps end soon. The temps are supposed to peak out by tomorrow or Wednesday with a max temp of 115-116 degrees. Not fun for any horse, misters are a wonderful thing. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 11:29 am:
Ann,
My horse was scheduled twice for scoping and became very colicky both times before the scope, so we just administered the Gastrogard and gave up on the solid evidence a scope would give us. He has been "tortured" so much that I (and his many vets) have just gone with the knowledge that if the Gastrogard works, then it is working on an ulcer. Gastrogard, plus turnout with free grazing, or free choice hay when stalled, and the breaking up of meals into 3 or 4 times of high fiber meals, seems to be working. I can many times skip the Gastrogard now, if life is perfect for him, BUT, when he is being trained on, I never skip the Gastrogard. He is going back to the training barn this week(would have gone there sooner, except the hurricane dumped too much weather on us to haul him there). I suspect we will go back to a larger dose there!
I have read that stopping the Gastrogard too soon causes many times the reoccurance of ulcers, so I would stick to the 60 day regimine at first, if at all feasible! I KNOW, IT IS A POCKETBOOK BREAKER! Good luck with your mare, too!!
Nancy
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 11:32 am:
Ann,
I just read your profile, and you have a great feeding and turnout regimine ... HOW DARE THAT MARE GET AN ULCER!!!!!
Nancy
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New Member:
Judyt
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 12:14 pm:
Steven:
I have a gelding that developed a high fever and quickly stopped eating back in January. I met with two different vets and they both diagonosed him with an ulcer.(no scope was done, because the vets didn't want him to travel, because of the stress) So they prescribed the Gastroguard. After I got the fever down he finally started eating again. Thank God for that Gastroguard. He had lost so much weight within a few short days. I know that it is expensive, but it was worth it. I did make sure he had plenty of water a hay. Eventually he has gotten his normal appetite back. Hang in there. I have been praying for you.
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Member:
Rose15
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 12:46 pm:
Steve.....I've had good luck with a new product called EQUITEA. Many equine hospitals use it for horses after surgery to encourage them to drink. You mix it in 5 gal bucket of water and then put a regular 5 gal bucket of water next to it. My gelding who thinks he's a camel just loves the tea and has increased his water consumption by about 3-4 gallons per day.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 4:34 pm:
Nancy , my thoughts exactly... 
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 9:51 pm:
Well our mare seems to be drinking a bit more today which is promising. We're going to stop IVs tonight and see how she does tomorrow. We 4 bags on hand in case she fails to drink. Not eating too much although a bit more than the last few days. She kinda goes up and down with eating/drinking, though eating more right after receiving Mylanta. I read the article concerning ulcers in horses as recommended by Dr.O, though it seems that the causes relate to active horses in training, or younger horses. Was wondering if our mare's bad luck with colics through most of her life maybe caught up with her in terms of resulting in an ulcer? So far things at least for today look promising, (not to jinx ourselves but) go GastroGuard! Steve
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 10:07 pm:
https://www.foxdenequine.com/tract.htm
Dr.O is this another don't bother with supplement..??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2005 - 10:04 am:
Ann, yes this is another don't bother with supplement that is not even based on an accurate understanding of horse physiology: horses stomaches become acidic between feedings not during feedings, see the article on Adult Ulcers for more on this.
Guys, not wanting to throw water on this Gastroguard rally, I have to admit I read about all these ulcer treatments in adult horses that are not in a ulcergenic environment, that are not scoped, and have symptoms that I commonly see and attribute to transient viral infections or transient impactions and often get better without Gastroguard or any other treatment than maintaining good hydration and I wonder if this has become our newest "placebo" that also is very expensive. It has taken the place on the inappropriate use of antibiotics in these situations and I must say I prefer it to the over use of antibiotics. Of course I am not there to examine these horses and perhaps there are other symptoms you are not reporting but many if not most of the reports I see on here on the treatment of ulcers leave me wondering.... Note ALL seriously ill newborn foals should be on Gastroguard as ulcers are a very common complication in newborns.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2005 - 11:49 am:
It is promising that the current treatment may work. Sure we want to know the cause although all the vets consulted haven't been able to paint a clear picture to what has occurred. The hospital was willing to run additional tests which would have totaled around $ 5000.00, and still they were reluctant to say whether they would find anything. So, we have no problem spending the money for our horses, they're our children, but the vets including the hospital all throw their hands up and say "GastroGuard" or nothing. The equivalent meds prescribed prior to the GastroGuard didn't work, but this stuff seems "promising." The price on this stuff is killing me, but not to endorse the product, it's promising and it's all we've got at the moment. The vets and I have been trying to figure out the cause of this episode and still we are lost. After all the diagnosis, testing, hypothesizing this seems to be a sensible option. Steve
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2005 - 1:58 pm:
Steve: Been following this thread and am happy and relieved to read of some neutral news instead of the continuing gradual downward slide. Having been in similar situations, I understand the enormous relief this leveling off period can bring to us humans. So....placebo or cure......if it doesn't harm the horse, HANG THE EXPENSE - administer the "GastroGuard" for your own health and get a peaceful night's sleep. Good Luck!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2005 - 10:30 pm:
Thanks Lee for the encouragement. We are approaching Day 10 or so with GastroGuard and our mare has been eating a bit more each day. From eating nothing, she's now up to about 2lbs of pellets a day, which doesn't seem like much but in the current situation, it's increasing each day. We are still borderline with her drinking though she hasn't had IVs in about 3 days and is making some progress. Our vet may/may not put a new catheter in for IVs but wants her to try drinking on her own. She's been somewhat energetic especially after getting her rear legs wrapped each night (that she doesn't like). She's been cantering pretty well and seems more energetic. Once our continued heatwave breaks of 113 deg days, we'll have her hocks injected once more in order to relieve her of pain when trying to get up in the morning. We've been waiting on this because the hock injections with the extreme temperatures can cause horses to founder (the vets explained). So far we've been having to help her get up if she lies down...probably because of the pain and just been weak from not eating much. Thanks again to everyone for all encouragement and the great posts. Hopefully we've overcome this to some extent and will plan a course of action to somehow prevent this from re-occurring in the future if at all possible. Steve
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 9:17 am:
Steve,
So glad to hear about the progress! Of course, I'm sure you are already feeding a wet feed to help with that water consumption, AND, all the grazing and turnout possible(I know you are also dealing with extreme temperatures!) Soaked beet pulp may help a whole lot and Alfalfa hay is working for my guy! Still praying for y'all! Can't wait to hear all is well ...
Nancy
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 11:31 am:
Thanks Nancy, I mistakenly said we were on GastroGuard for 10 days, it's more like only 7 days today. We turned our 3 horses including our mare out together yesterday for some quality time and things went well. Our mare is still somewhat finicky on what she'll eat. Ordinarily she loves alfalfa, but since this started, she won't touch it and we have resorted to the pelleted form and Equine Senior. This combination she seems to like at the moment. We're waiting for the horse form of Mylanta to arrive called I believe "Nylanta" or something similar. She's looking a bit perkier each day. Within the next 10 days or so we probably will have her trailered back to the hospital to have her re-checked to see if the ulcers are healed. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 2:23 pm:
Steve, Sending my wishes and happy thoughts that things are improving. I know what a difficult thing it can be when your horse is ill and then you have to deal with the heat too. It's been a killer this year. Are you in AZ by any chance? I'm in Tucson. Best thoughts, Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 1:16 am:
Shirley, we're in Phoenix and Sunday/Monday we're looking at 115 degrees. Cooling off to 108 by next Thursday on the extended forecast and no monsoon in sight yet. I'm glad we installed the misters in the stalls, our mare at first didn't like them but now is constantly under them most of the day. She's finally eating more with four manure piles in a 8-hour period compared to barely one in 24-hours a week ago. Since we installed the misters, all of our horses are drinking less while they're constantly under them. So we're holding off on IVs on our mare, I think keeping our horses in the shaded stalled w/ the misters has helped tremendously. Steve
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 9:04 am:
WISH I could send y'all some of this rain in Georgia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nancy
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 12:22 pm:
Great to hear the manure production is increasing. ;-) . . . Are horse people the only ones who watch and listen to the back ends of their animals as much as we watch the front ends?
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 7:21 pm:
Steve, Thankful you have misters for your horses. I know it's even worse in Phx than it is here. I lost my mare last Oct. and I miss her with all my heart, but if she had to pick a time to go, I'm thankful it was prior to all this heat. She was boarded and the barn was very hot with afternoon sun coming into the stalls. I used fans on her even when bathing her, probably as much for me as for her! And yes, I think we horse lovers and owners are very, very aware of what comes out as well as what goes in,:o) Best to you Steve and keep up the good work. Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 12:14 pm:
I never that someday I'd be interested in watching the backend of a horse, the things we do for our horses. As I write this the temperature here is already 100 deg at 9:00 a.m. and we're now expecting 117 degrees today. We had a dust storm last evening, no rain though it DrOpped the temps down to about 100 deg by 8:00 p.m. We're still monitoring our mare's water input...still somewhat marginal whether to give more IVs, though the vets are trying not to rely on the IVs and get her to drink on her own. She's going more for the pelleted feed and won't touch the alfalfa and nibbles some on the grass hay. I guess whatever she'll eat as long as she's eating. Steve
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Member:
Rose15
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 2:10 pm:
Steve....hope everything is going better for your mare. Would you mind giving me some information about the misters? We don't have 117 degree temps but today will be 98 with high humidity so I would like to consider misters. I currently use 52" ceiling fans above each stall and when they are not out in pasture I have 50' runs off
each stall. And ,of course, the frequent baths helps keep the horses a little cooler.
Did you get a chance to try the Equitea for your
mare?
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 2:24 pm:
Honestly, bless your heart ... and your mare's too! Anybody who would install misters in their horse's stall is all right with me! I hope and pray for the day you post that you are happy with how she feels. As I posted earlier, I would gladly send some of this Georgia rain to you if I could! I will not complain any more about our situation ... all things being relative, I've decided it is a "good problem" to have, compared with what you are enduring!
Rose- did I miss how to get that "equitea"? I would also like to look into it.
Thanks,
Nancy
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Monday, Jul 18, 2005 - 2:39 am:
I've owned my QH mare since I leased her dam and bred her in 1980. Although I would have sworn that I knew everything about this mare, I missed the fact that she had Cushings. Yes, she took a little longer than the others to shed out completely, but then, she was in her twenties.... And yes, she was looking a little sway-back, but, why not, at her age? Her eyes were not quite as bright, her coat dry and brittle...slept alot....then the easy keeper mare we sometimes referred to as "Hoover" slowly lost her appetite, presented suddenly with "hot" front feet and "the light" finally dawned on me. After her test, she started on Permax and has DrOpped 10 yrs off her looks and attitude since last December.
I still can't believe I didn't see it sooner.
Considering your mare's age, if you haven't already, you might consider a test. Not that Cushing's causes ulcers, but it does affect the immune system, along with many tissues.
Just a thought. Best wishes for continued improvement.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Jul 18, 2005 - 11:34 am:
Our vets thought that she was in the early stages of cushings, so I do agree that it could be a possibility. We did see a few other signs to cushings a while back.
To Rose: I went out and purchased the misters from Home Depot. They do sell kits which to me are extremely overpriced but do the job. I wanted to get something up quick to cool the horses down so I went with the 3/8 line mister kits which does about 15 ft or so. I purchased three kits and spliced them together. They say that the kits are expandable to 50' but you have to purchase additional hardware separately and it's not easy to do. If I had the time, I would have went with the 1/2 line kit made of PVC (the 3/8 kits are hose). We have 4 stalls in a shed row and ran the misters toward the rear of the awning. I drilled through the galvanized steel awning perlins and installed the hose clamps into 3 of the 4 stalls. Then you attach a garden hose to the end and that's it. If you have time you can make your own misting system using 1/2 PVC tubing and drill/tap holes for the mister fittings, which you can purchase separately. You can then put more/less misters and position them where you want. Then just add a PVC elbow and a straight piece going from the top to the bottom so you can attach a hose (don't forget to add a hose attachment fitting). Regardless if you buy the kit or do it yourself, you can get everything at Home Depot or Lowes. Don't forget to place the system in a place based on the prevailing breezes, so your horse has access to them or decide he/she doesn't want to get wet. Good Luck, Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Monday, Jul 18, 2005 - 2:12 pm:
Steve, If you suspect Cushings by all means test her for it, and go to the files here for all kinds of info. My mare had Cushings, it's a precurser to Insulin Resistance in a lot of cases, which means a very, very tight diet. Any more help I can be, having dealt with it, you may e-mail me privately at Shirley4715@msn.com. Good luck, Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 19, 2005 - 7:42 am:
For more on Cushing's see, Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders » Cushing's SynDrOme and Pituitary Tumors.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 12:48 am:
Thanks Shirley and Dr.O for the info. My wife's been suspecting cushings for a while now since she has problems with her coat and a few other symptoms. In fact, our dog has cushings and recently went on Insulin. To add more to the mix the son of our mare is Insulin resistant which the vets attributed to his over-weightness and he foundered about 3 months ago. Our mare has been good up to this morning. She was back to her normal big eating and drinking until we found her down again in our arena this morning. Because of her hocks, she couldn't get up. You could see that she had struggled for a while until we got her up. After that stress, she went back to eating little to nothing, although she is drinking. This follows closely to what happened when she went down the first time and all of this started. So, I'm figuring that cushings or whatever may be the outlining problem but the stress she's had with her attempting to get up and then falling for a while may have aggravated her condition; since when she's down she gets overly stressed. She did eat a bit tonight and the temps are supposed to cool down to 105-6 by Friday so the vet will come out and attempt the hock injections. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 1:23 am:
Steve, I'm so sorry to hear she's still having difficulties getting up. That has got to be very frustrating for her and you. Please let us know what the vet says. Again, prayers and thoughts are with you. Shirl
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 9:12 am:
Steve,
I've been following the progress of your mare.
She is lucky to have you and your wife to care for her.
Wow, cooling down to 105-6!
Take care,
Barbara
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 11:04 am:
Steve
Just want you to know you still have my support and prayers ... I know that sinking feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you go out and find your horse down. She is indeed very blessed to have you and your wife caring for her. Hope today will be a good day for her(and therefore you)! She must be a very special mare!
Nancy
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 11:09 am:
Steve
Just read where "record heat" has killed 18 in Phoenix ... think I'll keep our rain!
Nancy
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Member:
9193
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 4:48 pm:
Hi Steve,
I've been following this post and want to send to you and your wife my support and admiration for your care and dedication to your mare..She is one fortunate and beloved member of your family..
I wish I could send you the fog and cool temperatures we are experiencing in the SF Bay Area.. the High is 71 degrees along the coast. I read the papers regarding the 118 degree temps and feel for you all!
Please keep the updates coming.
Debra
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 8:51 pm:
I just wanted to add that I too am sending your family and your mare positive healing thoughts and prayers for strength and I'll add in prayers for cooler temps as well.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Friday, Jul 22, 2005 - 12:45 am:
Thanks everyone for your support. Our vet should be out tomorrow for the hock injections, but I have a feeling that they may not help much. Our mare's getting up there in age and it's just getting harder for her to get up. We're awaiting moisture from old Hurricane Emily and hopefully that will cool things down this weekend. The temps are still near 110 and the humidity is horrible! And yes people are dying in this heat most either are homeless or can't afford to either fix or pay for air conditioning. I guess that'll teach me for moving to Phoenix from California! We did have a scare last evening as a fast moving brushfire broke out about 150 yards from our place, luckily the fire department was able to get it under control and all the horses around here didn't freak out. Boy talk about ulcers, I'm due for one soon. Steve
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2005 - 3:19 am:
Steve, Please discuss the Cushings test for your mare when the vet comes. I forgot to mention that before my mare was diagnosed, she spent an awful lot of time lying down - a frightening amount, actually. HER FEET HURT. And, she had a terrible time getting up...because HER FEET HURT. And I missed it. Instead of investigating Cushings, I had the vet give her Legend. I had new X-rays taken of her navicular....Which showed no change since 1997 X-rays, which, in turn, showed no real change since 1992. So how come, I wondered, her navicular is bothering her so much over the last couple of years if there has been no further breakdown? Figured it had to be arthritis and started Legend. Thought it was the beginning of the end. Couldn't see the forest for the trees.
She canters happily down the field now, choosing her right lead - the "bad" navicular foot. We can trail ride again, and she is as anxious to go out as she is to go home.
Consider a check for Cushings and Insulin resistance - it's in her "family".
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 2:40 pm:
Our mare does show signs of Cushings w/o the Insulin resistance and our vet is aware of it, although she doesn't believe that the ulcers or other symptoms were from the Cushings. The lying down isn't frequent. Our mare has only lay down 3 times in the past month or so. She now seems apprehensive to lay down probably since she knows that getting up will hurt. Our vet did do the hock injections as well as we have her on joint supplements. She hasn't lay down since the injections...curious to see if it helps at all. Her appetite is back to somewhat normal, she's been eating/drinking pretty good the past week since her last episode of trying to get up. That seemed to freak her out and she stopped eating for the day...but by the next day she was back at the pellets. Funny though she doesn't want alfalfa which she is so used to inhaling, she rather have pellets....whatever works. Steve
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2005 - 9:25 pm:
Steve
Guardedly sounds like things are a bit better ... hope the turn for better keeps up. I know this has been a long haul for you and your mare. How's the heat factor there. Yesterday, in middle Georgia, the heat index was 110*. Today temp. was 98* ... don't know what the index was, but, I think I'm feeling your pain!
Hope your mare continues on her upswing!
Nancy
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 26, 2005 - 12:52 am:
We should be feeling "your pain" here in Jersey, by tomorrow. Weather station says the Phoenix heat is headed this way....except in Jersey, it's never a "dry" heat.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 26, 2005 - 10:03 am:
Steve, so glad your mare seems to be doing better. It's a long haul, but will be worth it I'm sure. Seems like it's always the "best ones" that develop problems and have injuries.
I can't imagine way anyone would move to Phoenix from California! Except, of course, politics, taxes, jobs, and maybe cost of living. Pretty country in the winter. Of course, this heat wave has been bad for everyone. Record highs here in UT. Temps were between 102 and 106 whole time I was at a show in SLC. Am praying for rain.
I think it's going to be a smokey summer for all of us out west. We had so much smoke from fires we couldn't see the mountains only six miles away from us. Stay safe and cool!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2005 - 1:23 am:
Well folks the temperature did cool down this evening due to thunderstorms....it made it down to 80 degrees! But it will be up to 90's by dawn, not fun. I did hear the heatwave is headed northeast, I do recommend the misters they have done wonders in keeping our horses somewhat comfortable. Didn't have a choice when moving to Phoenix, went to college here and sorta got stuck. Going back to California would be next to impossible, especially trying to get what we have here, we'd have to be millionaires! Were are considering Upstate New York near the US/Canadian border, we love the cold and at least you can dress for that! Our farrier was out on Saturday and mentioned a high rate of founder this season, probably due to unbearable heat. Something to think about for those who will be getting the heat soon enough, especially if your horses aren't used to it. So far we have an Insulin Resistant Gelding with founder, another Gelding with minor founder, a newly discovered diabetic dog and our mare with ulcers.....our kitchen counter looks like a pharmacy! Try to stay cool in Utah, Georgia and Jersey!!! The best of luck and keep watering them ponies!!!
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2005 - 1:54 pm:
Steven, You are so right about the heat causing more founder. My former Ferrier called me last week just to check in and he said he's seen more horses this summer with laminitis/founder than ever before. So people in the 'hot spots' take care. Though I am mourning still over losing Sierra in Oct. I'm also thankful she doesn't have to deal with this heat. Good luck with your herd and take care of you too. Shirl
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2005 - 2:24 pm:
Steve, I'm very glad your horse is doing better!
I don't mean to hijack...but could you expand more on heat and founder? How to keep it at bay...are there specific temps/duration to watch out for?
Thanks!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2005 - 2:46 pm:
I feel your pain Shirley in regards to losing Sierra, though through this heat (which seems worse overall this year) I agree that it was best that she didn't have to suffer through this summer in Arizona, or for that matter any horse. It's summers' like this that make me want to let them all loose and tell them to run to cooler country!
Aileen, maybe DrO can expand on the heat/founder problem, though I believe that continued high temps can lead to stressing out the horse which may result in founder. Seems that their are many things out there that can lead to founder. What we've done is keep our horses penned up under shade until roughly around sunset and then let them loose in our arena for turnout. Our pens are pretty big and have the misters installed on the awnings which seems to keep the air in the pens cooler. I guess it really depends where you are in the country in terms of temp and duration, if you are experiencing extremely above normal temperatures...I would (as a laymen) keep the horses hydrated, under shade if possible, and maybe add some electrolytes to their grain. Good luck!! Steve
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2005 - 3:49 pm:
Thank you Steve, we are not nearly as hot as you are, but quick weather changes do worry me. They are drinking a lot because I'm filling/cleaning the 70 gal waterers every other day and they have fans in their stalls and shady paddocks - except for one. Why they choose to sunbathe though is really beyond me!
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, Jul 29, 2005 - 1:16 am:
We already GOT your heat, Steve, and it's been here in Jersey!!! I've spent a lot of time in Phoenix, and used to mock the "yes, but it's a DRY heat". Well, yesterday, my thermometer read 108 in the shade, and the humidity was outrageous. Like breathing underwater....boiling water. We jumped in our pool for relief.....it was 94*...and, no, it's not heated.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 29, 2005 - 9:26 am:
It pretty much is as Steve sums it up, other than stress of any kind lowers the thresh hold for founder, there is not a clear connection between the two. I think a likely possibility is where altered bowel motility might result in an increase or bacterially produced founder inducing chemicals. But other mechanisms are possible.
DrO
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 - 11:35 pm:
Now our mare's somewhat back to normal, her son which is a 6 yr. old gelding has founded pretty bad. Plus our other horse, a 19 yr old Standardbred as founded as well. The vets are attributing the amount of rotation in such a short period of time to the heat. Chances are that the 6 yr old will have to be put down. Just in the last two days he went from slightly lame to severe. He does have pads and therp. shoeing but the farrier is returning tomorrow to put a hospital plate on his hoof. He can barely walk and it's been painful to watch. Our Standardbred rotated a bit more from the last xrays taken about 5 wks ago, but not as severe. The 6 yr old has the Insulin Resistance problem so we've had to change his feed, although the vets are commenting that this will be an ongoing problem which may cause the founder to re-occur throughout his life. All the vets are shocked to hear of the problems we've had the past two months with our three horses. Just goes to show that you can give your horses the best of care, comfortable surroundings and love and things still happen. You become bitter because you see other horses around where we are which are not taken care of and neglected somewhat and nothing happens to them. I'm just glad that the temps have come down a bit. Steve
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 12:26 am:
Steve, how awful for you about the 6-year old . . . Do you know that so much can be done for foundered cases nowadays. Despite the rotation, your horse may be able to recover. Of course, if the insulin resistance problem is severe and will cause further problems, it may be best to put the horse down . . . So sorry you are having to watch them be in pain. Check and see what can be done first, though . . . Many foundered horses have gone sound with today's more knowledgeable treatments and procedures.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 12:33 am:
Steve, I am too am so very sorry. I can't believe what you and your horses have had to endure this summer. I truly believe the heat has a lot to do with it as my ferrier stated. I think the worst thing in the world is to watch our animals in pain and we can't 'fix it'. Has your vet suggested a couple days of Bute to help the original inflammation? Might help. Your in our prayers. Shirl
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 8:20 am:
Geeze Steve, I am so sorry that your two horses have foundered.
What good news though, that the older mare is doing well.
-Barbara
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 8:35 am:
Steve - I have to admit that I haven't read every single post in this thread, but I have read many. I wonder if you have iced the feet of the foundered horses. My understanding from both my vet and my farrier is that if their hooves are immersed in water with a lot of ice in it for as long as possible and as often as possible as soon after symptoms begin as possible, it can have a profound effect on the degree of rotation and the severity of the symptoms. I hope you can delay any "permanent solution" as long as possible to give this a try. Much luck. I can't imagine how agonizing this is for you.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 9:42 am:
Steve
Please don't be bitter ... I have come to learn that it seems like there is almost a positive correlation between the horses that are
"kept well" and the horses that have problems. It is just an old horseman's "joke." Don't know what that is all about, but when a good one is born I say, "He'll be a world champion if he lives." And when one gets sick or hurt, "I knew he was going to be a special one." Seriously, the horses that NEED YOU are WITH YOU. I know how it hurts your heart, but remember how awful it would be for them if they did not have you! God bless you in your efforts and send you and your horses healing and peace! You are in my prayers...
Nancy
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 9:44 am:
Steve, I'm so sorry. I completely agree with your thoughts on the best cared for horses having problems and the one's whose owner's don't know enough or don't care never have any problems, it is very frustrating.
Holly is right about help for foundered horses. I'm not sure of the process she's thinking of, but I've heard a lot about barefoot helping foundered horses, but if he's that bad, it may not help.
Sending many positive, healing thoughts and prayers to you and your herd.
ps. if you haven't already, don't forget to check out Dr. O's articles on founder.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 12:37 pm:
Steve,
I have been following your posts. So sorry about your new troubles with the founder. I hope something can be done for the founder cases - you are working so hard at giving your horses the best of care.
Wishing you luck and strength,
Lilo
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 5:35 pm:
Thanks everyone for the support. The farrier was afraid to remove the therp. shoe this morning on our gelding, thought the whole hoof was going to fall off. The vet showed up and our farrier carefully removed the shoe and we found more rotation in the 24 or so hours. The coffin bone is about ready to DrOp, so the vet decided to keep the shoe off and use foam padding with some tape to give some comfort for the time being. You can see the coffin bone indent on his sole, this was a rapid setback that we didn't expect. He's been iced since May when this all started and has been on bute since May as well. The bute is not working and we wish that he would lie down a bit but refuses. He's a warmblood and has a high pain threshold but the pain has caught up with him. Our vet is giving him a few days and if things don't look better he suggested putting him down. He's still eating and playful, but the quality of life in the future doesn't look good for him, especially since he is so young....we would hate for him to live like this the rest of his life, especially with his insulin resistance. A fews days ago he was short but still somewhat active and all of a sudden. We'll see what the next few days holds, wish we had better news to share. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 - 6:54 pm:
Steve, I understand your feelings about the best of care not always ends the way we'd like. However, as Nancy said, sometimes they are with us for a special reason because they'll get that care. I always said with all the problems my mare had she'd not have lived past 10 had I not had her and done without myself to give her the best care.
You mentioned your boy being on Bute since May. Sierra was also on Bute for the last two months of her life, and the last 48 hrs. it did nothing (2 grams 2x a day). But, until that time, she was one happy camper exploring the entire area with me on our daily walks. She too refused to lay down, but ate, walked and all systems were normal, until 48 hours prior to her leaving us. In the 14 years she was with me I'd seen her lay down only 3 times. The minute she begin laying down with people around her I knew it was close to being time. Last vet and ferrier call coffin bone DrOpped, showed no circulation in her front feet and her heart rate was over 90 from pain. Our vet gave her a lot of injectable pain meds to keep her comfortable the last hour and we let her eat her fill of all the things she couldn't have prior due to IR and Cushings. When she left us she was content and happy - went very easy. Your boy will let you know when it is time. I had her cremated. I know the heartache you are having and each time you go to the barn you wonder what you'll find. Take care of you, get your rest and we'll pray things turn around for you. I hope some of this helps. Always know you are doing everything and more to keep your herd well and content. Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 2:59 pm:
Thanks, Shirley, we have one more grasp of hope. My wife called a vet hospital in Virginia which has had success with laminitis surgeries. They told us that many vets nationwide are unaware of some of the strives made in research/treatment on this disease. We told them of our gelding and they gave us a prognosis of what to expect which gives us about a week or so before full DrOpping of the coffin bone. The hospital there, not sure on the location, does the surgery, attempts to find the root cause and rehabs them back to either pasture or little work. They have had good success with their methods which takes anywhere from 3-6 months. We have calls in this a.m. to our insurance company to see if they will cover the cost under surgery. Of course it doesn't cover the whole thing, though at least part of it. The hospital has good transportation to get him there and would do the surgery after he stabalizes a bit in Virginia. I'm praying that the insurance company covers some of it, they are picky on what they cover/don't cover. They may not approve it and we will have no other choice but put him down. Our vets here are going to consult with the Virginia vets on this and see where we're at. My wife has raised this baby and she's about to do anything to keep him alive based on quality of life he could have if the surgery is done. If the outcome is grim, of course we would do the most humane thing, but if there is a chance he could somewhat recover, we're willing to do whatever possible. Who knows, soon enough I may be living out of a stall because of all the costs....but we're going to give it a try. Sounds like this surgery that this hospital does is pretty new, if this works, wished more vet hospitals around the country could pick this up so we can rid our horses of this terrible disease. Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 3:24 pm:
Sounds like possibly the Marion Dupont Scott Equine Medical Center near Leesburg (Morven Park). Hoping for a great outcome!
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 3:57 pm:
Steve,
I've been following this discussion but haven't commented since I haven't anything useful to add...but, I did want to wish you all the best as you try to help your horses. I can only imagine how frustrated and helpless you feel as one after another, your horses experience extremely difficult problems.
You and your wife and your horses are all in my thoughts.
Fran
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 3:58 pm:
Steve, Thanks for the update. Prayers are coming your way that this horse can be saved. It sounds like a wonderful opportunity - hoping it works. And I'm also praying and hoping, fingers and toes crossed that your insurance comes through. Sad if they don't as I'm sure this is an expensive surgery. Laminitis and Cushings are two diseases I wish we could get rid of for good. Take good care and please keep all of us posted. We all are here for support. Hugs for your wife, I know how she feels too. Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 10:14 pm:
Thanks Shirley for all of your support, unfortunately we saw evidence today that other front foot is beginning to DrOp. All the pressure on the so-so foot has made it worse. Our vets are now recommending to put him down. Timing is what's killing us since we aren't able to get a transport until the end of the week plus the stress of having to stand 3 days from Phoenix to Virginia will be too much. The vets here are concerned that he may go down en route to Virginia, so we are siding with wanting our horse here when it happens instead of on the road somewhere. Another time factor obstacle is the tests needed to cross State lines etc.. We're taking it pretty bad, though if a positive outcome exists, we are planning to send the hospital in Virginia the xrays of our other foundered horse (Standardbred) in order to see what they recommend for shoeing/treatment before things get worse for him. We want to be proactive. His outcome is pretty good with a good amount of sole that he grew since last shoeing, though we want a better technique for shoeing him which the hospital can provide us. I guess things are just hard since we've never experienced losing a horse before. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 11:14 pm:
Steve, my heart breaks for you, your wife and your horse family. I agree, that trip to VA would be most unpleasant for him, new people, new surroundings, long trip and you not there! Have you ever had any dealings with Equine Hospital in Gilbert? If you would agree to it, I'd like to e-mail you personally about a few things that might help you through this. Sierra's best leg went also, in fact it was the worst at the end due to stress overload. Tears and prayers. My e-mail is Shirley4715@msn.com, if you'd like to hear from me personally to help you through this. I'm so sorry. Shirl PS How is he acting at this point?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 11:20 pm:
Don't the vets in VA have any alternatives for you? They know how far away you are and how difficult it would be for your horse to travel that distance, (although, if you send him in a box stall set-up, he will be able to lay down part of the time, provided he can stand up again). If you and your wife are willing to do whatever you can, it seems that there must be a way to provide what your horse needs. Surely, there must be more than one set of vets who know the new technology and operating procedures to help relieve your horse of the complications of laminitis. How about Colorado State University? Maybe if we all do some research we can come up with something. Odd, isn't it?. . . your posts started with a dehydrated geriatric mare and have morphed to be posts about a young, laminitic gelding.
It comes to each of us, Steve, that someday we have to let our horses go. It's never easy. Here on HA you have a host of fellow horsemen/women who know the pain you are feeling now. You aren't alone.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Aug 1, 2005 - 11:41 pm:
Found this on Dr. Ric Redden's Equine Podiatry Center (in Kentucky) site:
"What are some of the myths about Laminitis?
Stall rest and bute are appropriate therapy. The patients that get better on this treatment would have recovered without any treatment. This statement is a complete myth. The horse may look better, but diagnostic testing will often reveal permanent damage from a mild case that otherwise could have been prevented. This is often the case with grass founder, that is, horses that get sore feet every year, seemingly from eating too much fresh, green grass. Each year they are put on bute and stall rest, and each year they "get better." Radiograph their feet, and you will see they are not better--they have avoidable damage from an avoidable synDrOme.
Laminitis is not treatable, especially high scale laminitis.
Horses with severe rotation of the coffin bone cannot be treated.
Horses with laminitis should not be shipped.
If shipped properly (see our Correct Shipping Protocol for Laminitic Horses), transferring the horse to a specialized treatment facility like the Equine Podiatry Center is the best option for saving your horse's life."
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 3:45 am:
Have you found stuff like this?
www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Joey.html
https://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/case_season_2002_01.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 7:33 am:
Steve what is the nature of the surgery that the folks in VA believe is worth shipping a horse that distance with founder. Have you had a chance to study our article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview?
DrO
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Member:
Ryle
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 9:07 am:
I have to disagree with the statement from Ric Redden's sight that says horses with severe rotation cannot be treated. I 2 friends who have had great luck with treating horses who had severe rotation of the coffin bone. (Success shown by radiographs.) The treatment has not been quick and has required lots of work, but it's been done. On one of the mares the vets kept recommending that she be put down but her owner refused and found someone who would help her. Her mare is now doing very well.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 10:08 am:
No, no, no, Cynthia . . . Those three statements in the center of the paragraph are MYTHS about horses with laminitis. Dr. Redden DOES believe that there is hope for horses with rotation.
I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from trying to save a foundered horse.
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Member:
Ryle
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 10:27 am:
Thank you for the clarification. I just couldn't believe that Ric Redden would say something like that since he is such a big proponent of treatment. It just read odd to me.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 2:13 pm:
We are trying to research alternatives in the 11th hour. What are you supposed to say when a vet highly recommends putting a horse down? We discussed the possibility of having the vet in Virginia talk our vets here through the surgery, though the comments were that the post surgery treatment probably isn't an option since there is a regimine of things they do w/ the horse which includes special shoeing. Here's a link to the hospital we're talking about:
https://www.serenityequine.com/
Don't know what else to do, I believe my wife has read just about every article known to man on the subject and treatments. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 4:15 pm:
Steve, It's your horse, you, your wife and your horse decide when it's time. Wishes still coming your way. Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 4:35 pm:
Thanks Shirl, we've got one last ditch effort as we speak. We have a local Surgeon which we need to talk with today in terms of working with the team in Virginia on doing the surgery. If they decide to give it a shot, we'll go for it. The general vets here say we have about a week before the bone actually breaks through on one foot, with the other soon to follow. Our gelding even limping still actively plays with our Standardbred through the railing, go figure. If we can get an attempt on the surgery here we can feel assured that we did everything we could, plus alleviating the stress of moving him to Virginia. I just pray the Surgeon is willing to work with Virginia and take the case. Steve
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 4:36 pm:
I agree with Shirley...still sending positive, healing thoughts and prayers for peace.
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Member:
Deggert
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 5:21 pm:
Steve
good luck with a difficult situation, I will say that in my mare's case, simple was best for her. she did not want a shoe on her foundered foot so we left it barefoot for 10 months and kept her in deep footing in a paddock. She didn't want pads or anything, everything made her worse. Until, the abscess came, then the vets said she was so lame I should put her down. Well, 9 months later she is trotting full tilt down the pasture sound as can be with a shoe on. It took alot of work on my part but another factor is the horse. You will know if the horse wants to go on and keep trying.
Her post is under "foundered mare with foal at side" All the best to you.
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 7:13 pm:
Steve - I'm sure you've thought of all the angles, but I wondered if you had considered bringing the VA vet to your location. I can't even imagine the expense involved but it seems that that could be a more viable option than taking the horse there, which it seems you've already ruled out, and your own vets could learn this technique first hand. I wish you the best of luck in your process and peace whatever the outcome. I can't even imagine having to agonize over this decision.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 8:19 pm:
Val, what a great idea.
Steve, it sounds like your horse isn't giving up yet, and the horses are the ones who usually tell us when the time to say, "good-bye," has come. I am hopeful about the possibilities. Sounds like you still have a window of time. I hope that at this time next year, your wife will be joyfully riding her blessed gelding in much cooler temperatures in the Adirondacks (Vermont is a great place, too  ).
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 9:44 pm:
So is Maine!!!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 10:11 pm:
Unfortunately the vets in Virginia are unable to come down for the surgery, however interesting enough the vets in Virginia have worked with Dr. Ric Redden...The vets were more concerned with the post treatment which takes months than the surgery itself. What really upset us is that one of our vets here has flown Ric Redden here to perform surgery on special cases, though the same vet didn't have any other opinion but to put our gelding to sleep. Anyhow, we contacted a Surgeon today and will come up Thursday to take a look at our gelding. She also wants to consult the same vet (the one who wants our gelding down). Regardless, I'm going to make it clear that I want her to consult with the Virginia Vets and have a bias opinion. I'm getting tired of one vet talking to the other w/o any exam and making a prognosis...just because they "trust his word." Funny, I have the Eastern US Vets saying there's a chance and the ones' out here saying don't bother put him down. We were planning on putting our gelding down tomorrow but I'm glad to see that there's the slightest chance and we'll have him another day. If the vet is willing to take on the surgery, I'm assuming that she'll be in contact with Virginia during the process. I'll keep you informed. Thanks for all the prayers Steve
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 11:32 pm:
Ayuh . . . Maine is nice. My dad lives in Bangor. You don't need horses in Maine, though . . . The Black Flies are so big, you can just ride them instead! 
Steve, I took the liberty of writing to Ric Redden's Equine Podiatry Center. Don't know what will come of it, but maybe we'll get a response. In the meantime . . . Dr. O., . . . You'd like to see Arizona this time of year, wouldn't you? Maybe you could pioneer an impromptu, emergency laminitis surgery clinic . . . or give us some other options?
Would frozen gel packs taped to the bottom of the gelding's feet be of any help? Standing in sand shouldn't be a problem . . . You have plenty in Arizona, don't you?
I'm really not one to give up hope in a situation like this . . . I really believe that there is a solution out there . . . just need to use our creativity and love of horses to find it.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 12:01 am:
Steve, Thankful another vet is coming to look at him. If he is eating, moving and acting happy, there's a chance. Some vets, if they can't fix it immediately, it's easier to just "put it down". That's the way the world works at times. No one wants to admit they can't 'fix it'. Prayers continue to be with your family 4-legged included. Shirl
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 2:14 am:
Steve: Found these people in Wyoming
https://www.reDrOckhorses.com/index.html
It says to get in touch with them for questions or help with founder. Looks like they also offer board, care and treatment for foundered horses.
Have you researched farriers? My vets have always worked very closely with my farriers when legs and feet were the problem, and each of them have their own sources of information to plug into and "brains to pick". After all, it makes more sense to go to a podiatrist for your bunions rather than your GP- yet, they should still consult with each other.
What do you feed?
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Member:
Sylvy
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 2:24 am:
I hope things work out for you. There's nothing worse than having to make the decision to put your horse down. Sounds like you guys are doing everything possible. We know we have to let them go when they are in chronic pain and the future doesn't doesn't hold much promise of relief. Hang in there!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 2:39 am:
Wow, Lee . . . that sounds like a super place and not as far away as is Virginia. (Although why anyone would want to breed Morgans to Arabians is beyond me . . . I feel qualified to say that as I have a nutty Morab now, and have worked with and owned two others . . . Not a good combination for the faint of heart.)
It sounds as if these folks at Red Rock have had good success and are sincere in their desire to give hope and help to foundered horses and their discouraged owners. Good job, Lee.
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 7:48 am:
Gee, Holly....my stable is a mile from the Bangor line! Stop by when you come visit your dad!
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 8:45 am:
Steve
I'm still following your posts, and, for once in my life, am glad I have no knowledge about a disease! I have seen this terrible disease affect the lives of many horses and the people who love them, but have had no personal experience with it. I hate it for you and your wife, that you are having to face this terrible problem. God bless you all, and send you support and confidence in your decisions ... know that you are absolutely doing the best for your guys, and that is all that can be expected of you. I really pray for a good outcome for you all. There is a prayer "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" ... used by alcoholics in their programs to recover, it seems to apply here!
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 8:58 am:
Hello Holly,
Thanks for the vote Holly but the procedure described in the VA clinic site really needs an orthopedic surgeon and though I have screwed, wired, and plated my share of bones back together this one is beyond my skill level. The article I referenced to Steve above contains our best recommendations for treating founders and I don't think that the frozen packs would help Holly. The damage is already done and the ongoing complications are mostly from what has already happened. If Steve has any questions about treatment not answered in the article or that is being administered I would be glad to answer them.
Reading Steve's posts it seems that he is comfortable with his knowledge level and even the medical therapy his horse is getting though bothered by the prognosis and that he cannot get the surgery offered by Redden and the group in VA. I am of the opinion that if the horse is standing there is hope but the decision to put a horse down is not based purely on prognosis.
DrO
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:04 am:
Thanks, Dr. O.
Steve, I received this from Ric Redden's Clinic this morning.
Please contact Dr. Carrie Long Her Cell phone is 859-983-2121
She is out of town today . If she does not answer please leave her a message and she will return you call
Thank you Mary Wilkin
Equine Podiatry Center
I hope that they may be able to help in some way.}
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 9:22 pm:
You are all so gracious..many thanks!!! We had another Vet make it out today and examined our gelding. This vet seems more in tune with the newer advances. His prognosis quote, ..........."I would not put him down, you're far from it." The treatment, bute 2 gms/X2 day (because of his size), 3cc Acepromazine X2 day orally (for circulation, not as a sedative), low carb diet supplements to include 5 mgs of chromium, no shoeing or trimming until sole is re-grown and the heat spell ends, and ice around coronary bands twice a day for 20 minutes. This vet mentions that the shoes which were on him recommended by our last vets may have contributed to the worsening of the laminitis since the shoeing was more in tune for navicular. The other shoe was pulled and memory foam pads were used instead of the foam which was currently on, since it had already squashed down and was causing him more pain. Funny, this morning before the vet arrived, our gelding namely, Ravel cantered into our arena, once we saw this we were convinced that something could be done. Another funny thing, this vet was confident that Ravel could be brought back. In fact, he asked us what we wanted to do with him...our answer, "just to live." The vet asked again but added "if he wasn't lame." We mentioned dressage and a bit of jumping...the vet saw no reason why we couldn't do some of those things again if we took the time to rehab him and follow him carefully. This vet saw no reason to do any type of surgery at this time...he mentioned that Ravel was far from DrOpping...contrary to the other vet's opinion. So for now, we save another one!! This afternoon, Ravel is walking better since the second shoe was pulled and he was placed on better pads. We still have a long way to go but worth the fight every step of the way. How can I summarize, if you're unsure about anything, get a second, third and even fourth opinion and make sure they are unbiased independent opinions. We've heard about this vet through some of our friends, though we were under the impression that the clinic was closing since the main vet was retiring, funny he's so busy and does such a great job, they won't let him retire. DrO, Val, Holly, Lee, Nancy, Sylvia, Debbie, Aileen, Sarah, Rose, Ann...many many Thank You's. And, especially to Shirley (Shirl) for making our days brighter with her encouraging words. My wife will call Dr. Carrie Long just to let her know that we're safe for the time being. If I can ever help any of you, please do not hesitate to e-mail me: hazmat9@hotmail.com Again, Many Thanks from Steve, Donna, Rebecca (Thoroughbred: Ulcer), Southern (Standardbred; Minor Founder), and Ravel(Dutch Warmblood: Founder). Now maybe one good night sleep.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:00 pm:
YIPPEE! Way to go Rave, Steve and Family!! Tears are flowing as I just read your message. Prayers are indeed answered. I'm so thankful you didn't listen to the "put him down" talk! I felt all along if he was still playing, he was good to go! Thankful he's on the road to recovery. I'm so very happy, happy for all of you. PLEASE keep us informed as to how he is doing. I feel like part of your 'horse family' now. That's crazy I know, but enlight of what happened to Sierra I was really, really hoping for a happy ending. It will be a long road, very strict diet, but all's well that ends well. Thank you for a real Evening brightener. Best to all, Shirl
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:02 pm:
PS Steve, Donna and Rebecca, If you have the time and camera, now that you can get a decent rest, a picture of him would be wonderful. Maybe your entire family? Hugs to all, Shirl
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:47 pm:
Hallelujah! . . . MANY peaceful nights' rests to you all. (I expect you have lots of catching up to do.)
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:22 pm:
WONDERFUL! SO very glad this is working out! Still sending positive healing prayers!!!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:26 pm:
Thank you everyone, we'll surely send a pic of the family once things are settled. Ravel doesn't shy away from a camera . We are still going to be on pins/needles somewhat for a while though things are looking better than 24 hrs ago. Again as mentioned, we were surprised how much the vets differed on the prognosis, the reason to research a problem from different angles and if unsure get more opinions. As we speak, Donna is out icing the hooves on both horses and she couldn't be more relieved. I gotta give her credit for being so strong and determined through all of this. She deserves a long long rest.
When you do bed checks on your ponies tonight, pat them, give them a hug and a treat from all of us. Best Regards, Steve
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 7:46 am:
So glad to hear the news about Ravel.
-Barbara
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 7:51 am:
Steve - It sounds like we are all riding this one through with you.I'm not the only one who got teary at your post! It is a huge relief to know that the new vet's opinions reflect a more modern approach and so amazing to think of Ravel cantering! Where there's a will..... May the smiles continues and the improvements continue rapidly. Peace.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 8:52 am:
... the courage to change the things I can! I pray God continues to send you and Donna the courage and the strength to make it thru this! And vets who are skilled and knowledgeable. Healing thoughts and prayers to you. Keep up the good work,
Nancy
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Member:
Annes
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 11:05 am:
Steve, I have been following your posts and am so happy things are starting to turn around. I will keep Ravel in my thoughts and prayers and I think he must know so many people are sending him good wishes....a real trooper! - Ann
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 12:50 pm:
Steve and family, I too have been following this thread and hoping for the best for all involved...
this only shows that where there is hope there 'could' be a way... this gives all of us encouragement for our horses that are going thru lameness issues as well...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 3:08 pm:
Just caught your post, can't believe I choked up....I believe the others will agree, your thanks pale in comparison to the happiness and euphoric relief that came through in your post and warmed all of our hearts.
Such a super site Dr.O has created for us!
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 9:49 pm:
Well we've wouldn't have gotten through this without all of your support. I just hope we can get past the next 6 wks or so of heat w/o any major problems. Our Standardbred Southern is glad to still have his pal around. This site has been tremendous in the outpouring of support. Sometimes when problems happen you think that you're the only one affected. As I write this I stare out toward the pens as Ravel snoops around for more hay. I'll make sure to send a picture soon..and BTW we did sleep somewhat soundly last evening. God Bless, Steve/Donna
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 11:56 pm:
Steve and Donna,
You will get through the next 6 weeks with or without problems because you have the will, hope and love to do so . . . You also have the support of a host of friends here at HA, some of whom have been in desperate situations with their horses as you have been with yours . . . and we have also been the beneficiaries of encouraging posts from Dr. O. and fellow members.
}When I joined HA, I did it out of desperation for an underweight Arabian mare in my care . . . I never thought of this site as being a site through which I would make friends . . . thought of it as a resource; a tool . . . but I have made some very good friends whose frienships extend beyond the posts on HA . . . That is an unexpected blessing . . . and, yes, Lee, here is another member who is grateful for Dr. O.'s vision and commitment to help horses and the people who love them. Thank you, Dr. Oglesby. You are creating quite a legacy. I hope that for you the benefits far outweigh the frustrations. Now . . . Happy August to ALL, and to ALL a GOOD night! 
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 12:09 am:
Ditto Holly, been following your thread Steve, and sending positive thoughts your way. Hang in there, even if we don't write in we are thinking of you and your ponies!
suz
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 12:41 am:
Steven and Donna, Same thoughts coming from me as those from Holly and Sus. You've both been very strong, brave, full of love and stamina besides whatever else may come your way to "get the job done". You are admired by many and many keep you in our best wishes and prayers. Lucky horses. Best always, Shirl
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Member:
Paix
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 12:56 am:
Steve, I too, have been following this thread sending positive thots and endless hope for ALL your ponies. Every time I see ur subject title in my mail box, I take a deep sigh and pray for good news.
I believe all of our collective positive energy, thots and hope for the absolute best for u and ur family, will indeed have a powerful impact.
Keep on keeping on...
dina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 6:07 am:
This is most excellent Steve and I will lift a glass and say a prayer for continued improvement. The kindness and support y'all gave Steve above reinforces my feelings that this has become much more than a information resource and I thank you all for making Horseadvice what it is.
DrO
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 12:31 pm:
Dr. O, You deserve a big THANKS for having this site, letting each of us voice our feelings, thoughts, advice, prayers, good wishes without judging us. We all view situations differently and you've seen, heard it all, and continue to guide us through it all. Even though I lost Sierra, I continue to learn and hopefully can pass what I've learned on to others. Thanks and good wishes to you and yours, Shirl
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 12:33 pm:
It is so emotionally and physically exhausting when worrying about and nursing multiple horses, but you and they will reap rewards through your caring enough to do all you can. So glad for the improvements you have seen, and may this give you the strength to complete the tasks at hand.
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 2:05 pm:
Steve and Donna, I, too, have been silently following this thread. You've been in my thoughts and prayers all this time and it was with great joy that I read your August 3rd update. Wishing you continued success and a full recovery for each of your beloved horses.
D.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 3:13 pm:
Dear HA family,
Just want you to know that Mary Wilkin from Ric Redden's Equine Podiatry Clinic e-mailed me today to find out how Steve's horse is doing. That says a WHOLE bunch to me about the kind of folks working at that clinic. The e-mail address for the clinic is: epcinc@direcway.com
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 10:46 pm:
Ravel is walking a heck of a lot better, though still lame, the pressure off his soles has helped tremendously since our new vet removed the other shoe. Kinda flip flopping now as we return to our mare which has decreased eating again, but at least she's drinking. If things don't improve in the coming weeks, we'll have the new vet take a look at her. He did mention while he was out that he thought that it could be an object in her intestinal tract...something called an "Enterolith." Usually a foreign object which then minerals build around it. Kinda like having a stomach ache and not wanting to eat. The vet thinks that if the Enterolith acted up, then she stopped eating which lead to the ulcers....this makes sense. So it's something that comes/goes in terms of pain. Unfortunately, she's had so many colic surgeries and is getting up there in age, we probably wouldn't put her through surgery again. Other than that, the hock injections helped tremendously and she's able to lay down and get up with little or no difficulty. Again thanks to everyone, we'll keep you posted. Steve
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 5:35 pm:
You are on quite the rollercoaster aren't you Steve...I'm sorry...still sending positive healing thoughts and prayers!
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 7:43 pm:
Good to hear Ravel is doing better.
You and your wife sure have your hands full.
Here's hoping for an early Fall for you!
Take care,
Barbara
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Member:
9193
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 6, 2005 - 9:14 pm:
Dear Steve and Donna,
I left a few days ago feeling just terrible for the ordeal you were going thru with Ravel and your mare. I was so very, very happy and so moved to tears to read that your news regarding Ravel had turned to a more postitve path...
I hope that your mare is more comfortable and I too, will continue to follow your story and send you and your family prayers and positive thoughts.
Smiles,
Debra
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 2:05 am:
Many thanks for the continued support. Our mare is only eating about 10 pounds per day, though she's drinking plenty so we're not overly panicking at this point. Tomorrow the temperature is supposed to peak out to about 106 but should decrease to low 100's by next week, that's promising. Everyone seems to be doing fine and the vet in Virginia will be reviewing the xrays of our other Gelding, Southern for her opinion on specialized shoeing. Many Thanks, Steve
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 9:51 am:
Continued wishes for a good outcome for all your horses! Hope the weather starts cooperating!
Lilo
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 11:39 pm:
Wow what a posting. I haven't had time to catch up and tonight i did... This darn heat.
Steve, i hope all goes well with your older mare. I did research the enteroliths, i have even seen one the size of a large softball (2 of them smmooshed together- it was hard as a rock) There was a horse at my old barn that had the surgery, and the horse recouped fine. Those of us in sandy climates have to worry more about this. how many colic surgeries has your horse gone thru. I was under the impression enteroliths can take years to form. wouldn't they see that in past surgeries?
26 isn't so old. The beginning of the summer i posted about my 22 year old mare doing almost the exact same thing as yours. from the pre-cushings thoughts, to even the point of likcing her lips with the water but not drinking it. to ulcers, and back again to colic. never showing me signs of a true colic episode... She came thru it but not after 15 days of pure torture and worry. I didn't go the iv route but tubed at one point almost daily. And like you found my vets rationale at times frustrating. I feel for you on all issues.
If she is off her feed for a second. I do all sorts of mushy mashes that hopefully either keep it at bay or stop the process of her colicking. adding minerals and electorlytes and so forth. I mentioned to my vets once about the chance of enteroliths but, she got better so i never pursued it. But wonder if there is something forming in there...
I am sorry to hear about the foundered horses,too. i find it simply crushing to have all these dilemmas on three different horses all at the same time. good luck and hoping you have a cold front coming your way soon...
and definitely check out the barefoot horse sites for the founder stories. Holly is so right about so many new things out there and procedures, etc. Your new vet is right on with taking off the shoes and her thoughts on this isn't the end... Sometimes just that little bit of hope and concern can truly turn your attitude around.
good luck!!
jojo
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 1:39 pm:
Many thanks for the info Jojo. Our mare has had I believe 6 colic surgeries in the past. My wife who has had her all these years mentioned that she didn't want to put our mare through any more surgeries, especially with the other problems such as Cushings. She's doing pretty good now and is back to eating somewhat. She isn't unhappy and seems to be doing fine. We figured if things get really bad sometime in the future, we'll consult our new vet which seems to have a grasp on a lot of our problems. I think my wife wants to do what she can for her mare but then again wants her to go with some dignity if/when the time comes. She's sure that she wouldn't make it through the surgery, she knows her mare best. Our other four-legged friends are doing pretty darn good considering the founder and temps have gone down somewhat although we're trading it for uncomfortable humidity. I don't forsee anymore 116 deg. days although anything is possible around here with weather. Steve
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005 - 2:24 pm:
Steve and Donna, Glad to hear everyone is 'holding their own'. You are right in wanting your mare to go with some dignity. She'll tell you when it's time.
You are both to be praised, honored and admired for the time, money and determination you've shown for your beloved pets.
I agree with you regarding this heat. I think it's causing a lot of Equine problems all over the state. Too constant and the humidity now is extra difficult.
Please take care and know you continue to have my prayers and good wishes. Shirl
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 1:59 pm:
Many thanks Shirley, we're thinking positive thoughts and all the horses seem to be holding their own. I can't believe that we were actually below 100 deg for a few days! We looked at some ice boots for the hoof icing (to make it easier in icing two horses at once) and the prices were astounding! Over $ 100.00 for one pair, I'm tempted to make my own. Hopefully things continue the temperature cool-off, it supposed to max out next week at about 106, with low 100's up
'til then. Have a Great Weekend!! Steve
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 1:58 am:
Is there any chance that the reusable cold - heat therapy pacs for humans would work? They are filled with gel that you can put in the freezer and then velcro in place. They bring me immense relief when I wear one on my neck when haying. The local store usually carries them. If not, I vet wrap a bag of frozen peas on areas that need icing....then I refreeze.....umm...don't eat them.
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Member:
Donna7
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 12:50 pm:
I thought those of you who followed our horse Ravel's laminitis problem may want to know of our bad news. Ravel was put down last Friday. His progress started going down the past few weeks, probably accelerated by the increase in temperatures here in Phoenix. Our vet was called out on Thursday as my wife noticed separation of the hoof wall around the coronary band. It was occurring on both hooves and severe. We had been icing Ravel for quite some time and began alternating ice/soakings since one hoof began to abscess. We all thought that the draining of the abscess would relieve some of the discomfort he was experiencing; it did but the brunt of the pain was from the separation. Ravel was on 8 grams of bute a day and still in constant pain. Though in pain, Ravel was still playful, eating/drinking up to his last day. This is the first horse that I've seen put down, and it's something that I don't ever want to see again, but I know that this is a part of life and will happen again. Ravel had the look that in his eyes of being betrayed as he fought the vet and needle to the end. Our loss has been hard on both of us, to see a 7 yr old playful horse that had a great attitude and loved life put down. We hope that he is in a better place and forgives us for what we had to do. Many thanks again to all of you for the support and the hope you gave us during the hardest of times. Steve and Donna
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 1:16 pm:
Steve & Donna,
My deepest condolences to you both. I hope that you will take comfort knowing that you did everything you possibly could to give Ravel the best care possible. And in the end, ending his suffering is always the kindest thing to do.
Peace to you both.
Fran
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Member:
Jodeen
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 1:21 pm:
Steve and Donna,
I am so sorry for your loss. I know it is not an easy thing to go through. Take comfort in knowing you did all you could for him. And yes i beleive he is in a wonderful place and free from pain. Sometimes there is so many worse things than death.
take care
JoDeen
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 1:41 pm:
Steve and Donna,
Oddly enough I was thinking of you two on Friday, but failed to take the time to 'check on you'. I am so very sorry for this sad ending. To have him on so much Bute that didn't help, I'm sure it was time. The worst had to be seeing him fight to the end. I was lucky in that respect, Sierra's eyes told me it was time and she was ready. My heart aches for you, and prayers are going to you and I know now Ravel is galloping with others gone before in green pastures, free of pain. You need to grieve and cry. I still do. Take care.
Love to you and your family, Shirley
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 2:03 pm:
Steve and Donna
God bless you for what you have done to save your most precious gift from God from further suffering ... you have returned your gift to God. I know, believe me, I know how awful it feels to put one down, but, know that you did the right thing. His suffering is over, and now, yours takes on a new dimension. You have been sent special help and comfort, one of which will be the friends you have at this site. I am filled with a special empathy for you both ... God speed your healing and flood you with wonderful memories of the horse he gave to you, if only for a short time. You are in my thoughts and prayers,
Nancy
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 2:05 pm:
Steve and Donna,
So sorry to hear about your loss. You had to make that toughest decision of all. Our family has been through it many times, with horses, cats and dogs. All we can do is honor their memories - they are all special, each in their own way.
My deepest condolences,
Lilo
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 2:05 pm:
Steve and Donna
God bless you for what you have done to save your most precious gift from God from further suffering ... you have returned your gift to God. I know, believe me, I know how awful it feels to put one down, but, know that you did the right thing. His suffering is over, and now, yours takes on a new dimension. You have been sent special help and comfort, one of which will be the friends you have at this site. I am filled with a special empathy for you both ... God speed your healing and flood you with wonderful memories of the horse He gave to you, if only for a short time. You are in my thoughts and prayers,
Nancy
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 2:28 pm:
Steve, How hard that must have been. Some horses are just fighters, and Ravel was obviously just that. They will never give up and it shows in their spirit. I am sure you will feel better about this in time. I have put down 3 animals in the last year and a half, including my daughters precious, youthful pony. And it always rips your heart out. However, the comfort in your decision does improve with time.
Shelley
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 2:53 pm:
Steve and Donna,
It was heart wrenching to read about Ravel's decline and the decision you were forced to make.
God bless you and keep you in His care during this time of sorrow.
D.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 3:07 pm:
You tried so hard and went above and beyond what most people would do. It is difficult to accept that sometimes things are simply beyond our control and cannot be fixed no matter what we do. You did not betray Ravel's trust, but acted very responsibly throughout, acting in his behalf to do what was right for him. I am so sorry to hear of your loss. V
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 3:35 pm:
Very sorry to hear the sad news, Steve and Donna. You are in my thoughts.
Sue
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Member:
Qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 4:45 pm:
Steve,
My deepest condolances to you and your family. These horses hold such a tight grip on our hearts, it is so hard when we lose one. It is so painful to make the final decision, but you and your wife went above and beyond what most people would have done and Ravel knows that, but in the end, it was the only thing that could have been done. To free him from pain. May you find the strength to get through this, and wishing healthy thoughts for your other horses.
Ravel will be forever in your thoughts and the many memories you have made together.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 7:06 pm:
I am so sorry Steve & Donna. Everyone including Ravel fought so hard to overcome. To put out so much effort...I believe God only gives us what he thinks we can handle and we are stronger because of what we experience in life. We put down one horse this yr and just buried a 6 month old kitten yesterday. It never gets easier.
You will both be in my prayers. Take care.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 11:30 pm:
I ache for you both as you had to give up your hopes for Ravel and had to watch his life end. I know that to watch the life leave your special horse who had so much energy and joy in living causes pain almost more than you can bear. Your Ravel was courageous, and so have you been, only now, your courage has more depth than before.
Might we see a picture or two of your marvelous young horse? Your descriptions of him, along with the compassion you have shown, have been an inspiration to me.
How is your older mare doing? Do you have another horse, as well?
Peace to you.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 7:28 am:
Oh no, how heartbreaking. I really thought from following your posts that Ravel was going to overcome this; it must have been so much harder for you, having had your hopes raised.
My very deepest condolences.
Lynn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 8:07 am:
Steve and Donna, my deepest condolences. This was a case where we seemed to get to know you personally and what troopers you have been through it all.
DrO
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Member:
9193
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 12:30 pm:
Steve and Donna,
What a heartbreaking end to a nightmarish summer!
I am so very, very saddened to learn that all your love, care and devotion to Ravel ended much sooner than you had ever intended.
My heart aches for your loss and your grief. He will always be cherished in your hearts and memories forever.
My deepest condolences,
Debra
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Member:
DeeDrOtt
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 2:12 pm:
To share with you - this is on our horse of 17 years memorial in our barn who we lost last Dec. at the age of 26+ (almost made it to 27)
THE LOVE OF HORSES KNOWS NOT IT'S OWN DEPTH TIL THE HOUR OF SEPARATION
You made the right decision - he is now peaceful and playing in that green pasture with our Storm'n Norman.
Time will heal the pain but you will never forget.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 6:30 pm:
Oh, I am truly so sorry. 
Try to think of the good times, his wonderful personality and how hard you tried for him.
-Barbara
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And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end...the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance...I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
-The Dance by Garth Brooks
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 10, 2005 - 11:38 am:
Steve and Donna - there are no words that could express my sadness at the passing of Ravel. You worked so hard which must have bound your hearts even closer to your dear boy. May he rest in peace and may you find your own in time. Val
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 11, 2005 - 2:00 am:
Oh, dear. Indulge your grief. You're great people and, unfortunately, there is no quick route through this process. Hopefully, you'll mend soon, because there are so many horses out there that need owners like you.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 15, 2005 - 12:58 pm:
Oh my..I'm so very sorry....you did all that you could, you should be commended for how hard you and your wife tried...((((Hugs)))) to both of you!
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