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  Discussion on Snow in lieu of providing water
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Member:
Dhaslett

Posted on Friday, Aug 26, 2005 - 5:15 pm:

I've only lived in cold country a few years. I've always been where there was a stock tank and tank heater in the winter. I'm considering moving to a new place. The owner is a native and long-time horse owner who says horses can get plenty of water by eating clean snow. This doesn't sound right to me. It seems I've read somewhere that they can't/won't eat enough snow to stay sufficiently hydrated. Does anyone have any information about this?
Member:
Jodeen

Posted on Friday, Aug 26, 2005 - 5:35 pm:

I can't imagine that is true, I live in wyoming and have had the joy of being able to observe a wild horse herd near me, and i have never even seen them eat snow for water. They break through the small creek that is there. My 7 horses have a small irragation ditch that runs through till around nov. and they will break through it also rather than eat the snow. Then it is time for me to set up the tank and heater. Maybe they can, but I just cant see it happening personally.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Aug 26, 2005 - 5:58 pm:

NO, no, no and no!!! This is an unfortunately common misconception. A horse would have to eat snow 24 hrs a day, and then maybe barely get enough. In the western U.S. where the humidity is so low, the water content of the snow is especially low. Horses not only need clean water, it should be heated if at all possible so they will drink more of it. Not getting enough water in the winter is the main reason vets see more colic in winter than in summer.
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Friday, Aug 26, 2005 - 8:52 pm:

Eating snow can't be beneficial to keep their body heat up either. EO
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Friday, Aug 26, 2005 - 9:40 pm:

I agree with all of the above... Snow should not be considered an adequate water source.

-B
Member:
Dhaslett

Posted on Sunday, Aug 28, 2005 - 2:24 pm:

Thanks for your replies everyone. I also found some other web site articles confirming what you told me. I learned that horses CAN survive on snow and by licking ice but they can colic until they adjust, may get only enough to stay minimally hydrated, and waste a lot of processing calories that they could use to stay warm. So, they need a fresh water source in winter just as much as summer.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 28, 2005 - 5:48 pm:

I have to say I have not heard of horses being able to live on snow Prairefemme, what is the source of the information that this has been seen?
DrO
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Monday, Aug 29, 2005 - 11:33 am:

Many horses in our area survive on snow only during the winter. Of course, I am sure there are horses which colic esp during times of low snowfall or other adverse conditions. While I don't advocate it, it is such a a common practice I am surprised people don't know about it.
In fact, I know some oldtimers who think my horses are babied because I provide a water tank with a heater for my horses. Blankets and a shelter also, boy, do I pamper them!
Before electricity only horses that were 'used' were given water in the winter.
No one gives water to the herds of feral horses and there is no way they are breaking through the ice in winters where the temps get to-20 or more.
Who knows how many suffer and die due to lack of water.
Member:
Dhaslett

Posted on Monday, Aug 29, 2005 - 3:51 pm:

Dr. O: The web site I found which said horses can survive on snow was horsequest.com/journal/health/mccall. It cites a case several years ago when a group of horses was stranded in Alaska. They survived by eating snow and licking ice and "did not show any signs of dehydration". gaitedhorses.net also stated horses can "get by" on snow if necessary.

Obviously wild horses managed somehow but as Lori says, who knows how many died due to colic, inadequate snow/ice or dehydration. Plus I assume their systems are more adaptable than our modern "pampered" horses. My conclusion from all this is why risk my horse's health when I don't need to.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 1:16 am:

Just 40 years ago, there were a lot of things that horses "survived" without, and got by "just fine". However, in those days, horses over 12 yrs. old were listed as "aged". Today, with all the advancements that have been made in equine research and medicine, 12 years old is a fairly youthful animal.

40 yrs. ago, many horses suffering from dehydration were labeled as "poor" and shipped to the killers to be sold by weight before they died in the barn and had to be disposed of.

There's really no difference in today's "pampered" horse and those of years past. Stress and insult to their system will always result in deleterious effects. But we now understand that system better, and can avoid or treat these problems that caused horses 12 and over to be considered "on borrowed time" should a medical emergency arise.

Today I, myself, and many others, own and have owned horses who have lived well into their 30's and longer. I find myself in complete awe of the sweeping changes in the horse industry since the sixties.

And so much of the change is due to those like Dr. O, who guide and challenge us to better inform ourselves for the benefit of our dearest equine companions.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 7:05 am:

Thanks Praire and Lee and great post Lori.

There is always more out there to learn and I love learning about the limits our horses can push in situations I am not familiar with. It is fascinating to learn what is possible. Yet we do not know whether the practice is safe for every horse or perhaps just the strongest. But it may be that almost any horse could adapt, we just don't know and lord knows our preconceived notion is that we own a bunch of hot house flowers. Any other stories out there guys?
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 8, 2005 - 10:28 am:

Well after our recent discussion about snow as a source of water for horses look at this, support for what our members said and an indication that not only can it be used but makes a suitable replacement at least in horses accustomed to snow!
DrO

Acta Vet Scand. 2005;46(1-2):19-22.
Is snow a sufficient source of water for horses kept outdoors in winter? A case report.
Mejdell CM, Simensen E, Boe KE.
National Centre for Veterinary Contract Research and Commercial Services, Ltd.

Due to extreme weather conditions, a flock of outwintered Icelandic horses had to manage for several days on snow as the source of free water. They were fed grass silage ad lib, and any change in feed consumption was not observed. After nine days, blood samples were taken and analysed for plasma osmolality, they were subjected to a simple clinical examination, and offered drinking water. Osmolality levels were within normal limits and mean value did not differ significantly from samples which previously were taken of the same individuals. The general condition of the horses was normal, with no signs of clinical dehydration or disease. The horses showed very little interest for the offered drinking water. This suggests that in cold winter weather, horses being fed grass silage and adjusted to eat snow, can manage for several days with snow substituting liquid water without their physiology and welfare being challenged.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Sep 8, 2005 - 1:30 pm:

Hmmm. Interesting.

Wouldn't it depend a lot on the water content of the snow? Our snow here is very dry, for instance, and the snow in the east is much wetter.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 9, 2005 - 7:45 am:

No Sara, snow is water, just frozen crystals. The relative feeling of dry vs wet depends on the temperature and perhaps the moisture content of the air. Cold days with low humidity means the snow has a relatively dry feel but it still is all frozen water.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Sep 9, 2005 - 10:51 am:

Yes,snow is water, but what I meant is that the moisture content of the snow does vary from storm to storm and region to region. In the Sierra's, for instance, the snow, often referred to as Sierra Cement, has a higher water content than snow in the high Rockies. So I was thinking that the moisture content of the snow would effect how a horse could survive by eating snow. The dryer snow would require that a horse eat a lot more of it to get enough water to survive.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, Sep 9, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

My thoughts would be, yes, a horse could SURVIVE on frozen water(snow) for sure, however, if an owner is considering the health and welfare of her horse, I would certainly want to provide a source of water other than frozen snow as a water supply for her horse in a snowy environment, rather than depend on his consumption of snow for hydration!
I know every one would agree on this ...
Nancy
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Friday, Sep 9, 2005 - 2:19 pm:

I tried to post this morning - but my post did not make it. Here in dry Colorado we do think about the moisture content of the snow, and the weather stations often state the water equivalent of a snow fall. Sara, you are right, horses would have to eat more of the "dry" snow than the snow with higher moisture content (like our Colorado spring snows).
My horses do like to nibble on the snow at times, even though they always have water available.
Lilo
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Sep 9, 2005 - 6:41 pm:

Hello Prairiefemme,
A couple of questions on this topic is; what type of environment is your horse living in now and what type of environment are you considering moving your horse to?

Good healthy horses are pretty tough creatures and can weather the changes thrown at them, but I might consider the whole horse health picture before making such a move. Does your horse know that snow is water?; for example. What environment is your horse used to? The potential landlord could be giving you that excuse for his easy or lax care, financial reasons or some other obstacle that prevents him from providing water.
Lot's of unanswered questions on my part and I do apologize, but I am curious .

Sara: I prefer to shovel the dry snow vs. the wet snow, much easier on my back .

All in all Prairiefemme, consider the whole boarding environment before agreeing that snow is an adequate water source for your horse.

Hope this helps,
Susan b.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 10, 2005 - 9:28 am:

Guys whether it is wet or dry, 1 lb of snow contains the same amount of water (a tad over 1 pt) when thawed. If you are saying dry snow is fluffier therefore has more volume per unit weight, that may be but I don't think the increased volume in any way would limit their ability to consume the amounts they wanted.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Sep 10, 2005 - 10:14 am:

I'm just thinking the horses would have to eat more snow/spend a lot more time eating snow to get a suitable amount of water. I would think all that cold snow in their stomachs wouldn't be good for them, although I realize it would be the same as cold water. I was always told there is a concern of colic from not drinking enough water in the winter time if the water is freezing cold. That is one reason we keep heaters in our tanks in the winter - plus we hate breaking ice.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Sep 11, 2005 - 10:30 am:

Sara, yes, it does take some internal heat for a horse to convert snow to water, which translates into how much energy the horse needs to survive, hopefully thrive.
The question then becomes how much feed does the horse need to supply the energy(heat) he needs; which, of course, depends on numerous factors like feed quality, available shelter, workload, even age.
All the wild animals: moose, deer, feral horses, coyotes,lynx, etc rely on snow for water during the winter.
The biggest difference between the wild things and our horses is the wild ones can travel to find enough clean snow, providing there has been sufficient snowfall, but our domestic horses are confined to a corral, even the ones in a pasture can run out of clean snow and out of survival instinct will consume manure contaminated snow.
This is the greatest danger I see in relying completely on snow for water intake.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Sep 11, 2005 - 10:42 am:

Nancy, most definitely many people would not agree with your statement. Some people simply think if they provide hay for their horses they are fine.
The degree of care a horse needs can vary immensely depending on who you talk with.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 8:56 am:

Hey Lori
Maybe I need to make myself more clear ... surely, anyone who has a domesticated animal SHOULD know that they need to provide basic food and water for the animal. Now, the debate over whether a horse can survive on snow during the winter(as well as wild animals) is not really a huge debate for me. Of course, these animals can survive on snow, BUT, once we remove an animal from this natural environment, and basically remove the animal from his natural state, WE become responsible for providing the basic care needed for that animal, not only to survive, but to THRIVE, in the new environment! Nature no longer has control of the situation ... we do! The DEGREE of "care" can certainly vary, as long as the animal is thriving. No, not "hot house flower" care, but since the animal no longer has control over his own environment, we must provide an environment where the animal can do more than just survive. If not, then the person should not have ownership of the animal. No debate there! I'm sure you would agree with my "clarified" statement ...
Nancy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 9:14 am:

A Saskatchewan prairie winter can be brutal and a vast majority of horses are pretty much left to winter on harvested sections of land providing only snow for water, leafless bushes and valleys for shelter and pawing for whatever they can find for forage. Temperatures can dip to -40 for weeks at a time. A healthy horse that is acclimatized to this environment will not only do fine, but will ignore the available shelter, water and hay that is available 'up at the yard'.

I can't explain it, but I guess we equate our comfort with what we think a horse's comfort should be. If I were a horse, I'd surely rather be wrapped in a blanket, in a shelter, eating nice hay and drinking warm water, but in the wildest of weather we have witnessed our horses standing out in the open, backs turned into the weather, heads down and completely ignoring the comforts that are provided to them, should they desire them. Go figure.....

I do think that a horse can survive on snow for water but there are a lot of variables to consider. A lot of times our snow will be too deep and/or too crusty to forage for feed, or will be too crusty/hard/icy to provide adequate water intake. It's usually only during these conditions that they'll actually come 'to the yard' in the winter for water and feed.

As for shelter, we've noticed that our horses look for shelter in the heat of the summer, not in the cold of winter. I think they prefer the cold to the heat and the bugs.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 10:33 am:

This is an interesting discussion. I know horses, and for that matter most animals, are a lot tougher than we give them credit for being. Most still have very strong survival instincts, and they are still "equipped" for survival after the ages they have spent as domestic animals.

If it were up to me, I would probably have all my animals in the house in front of the fireplace with me every winter storm. AS it is, I bring them in and blanket them, use extra bedding, give them extra feed, etc.

I have to admit, however, that I do all this in part because I "humanize" them and treat them how I think I'd want to be treated in their place; and I do it in part to make my life easier. It is easier in a storm to go to the warm (comparatively) barn and feed, than carry feed to horses standing in the fields during a winter storm. And, it is easier for me to ride when the horses are clean under their blankets, than to do a lot of heavy grooming, or to try and cool down a winter haired horse.

Before we had room in the barn for all the horses, if a storm came up unexpectedly and I didn't have waterproof winter blankets on, I would worry and wake up in the middle of the night, pile on winter clothes over my pjs, and go out and check the horses. Never did I find a shivery horse. They were always dry and warm down by their skin. The only time I've seen one of the horses get cold is if a storm started out very wet and their was wind.

Even when we lived in the Sierra's, where it got to 40 below sometimes, like Sherri, we'd see some of the horses standing in the snow rather than in their stalls during a storm.

All that being said, I still overprotect my little herd, but am less manic about it than I used be.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 10:40 am:

Along a similar vein, quite a few years ago we lost a horse in the terrible Santa Barbara fire. She was down at a farm to be bred. Many, many horses were lost at different farms in that area. I can remember a lot of discussions afterwards about how we over protect our horses and really do them a disservice by throwing them in a barn at the first sign of a problem. We teach them that the barn is "safe" and "shelter" no matter what. Most of the horses that died in the fire were in their barns. Our particular mare was last seen with some other horses running into the barn (for protection) just before the barn imploded. The only horses that survived the fire were in a small, tight circle in the middle of a field.

Just more food for thought.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 10:54 am:

I bet you girls thought I'd disagree with you, but I don't! My point is that we are responsible for providing what they need since we have "taken" them out of their natural environment! I have had folks who leave their show horses at my place during the off season, and were shocked to see that their horses actually preferred not to be blanketed in the cold weather and enjoyed their days out in the pouring rain and, yes, I even sent out our Christmas card with the "hot house flowers" in the snow! Then, again, there were those darlings who paced at the fence when they decided it was time for the stall! I don't equate my human comforts with horsey comforts,and have seen too much of this "care", when horse owners keep their horses separated because they "fight", so the poor horse is destined to a life alone when it would be best to let the animals have their usually more noise than action "fight " and let the horse have his companions. Or the owner who keeps his horse stalled for days because it is raining out, and then is surprised to see him colic.
You know, my point is to offer basic care, and, if they don't need or want it, well, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!"
Nancy
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 10:56 am:

P.S. Sara, was that the fire long ago that killed E.W.Natal? So very sad!
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 10:58 am:

How sad Sara. I can't imagine losing a horse that way.

Along the same lines of horses surviving nicely in inclement weather, we notice a lot of people brushing the snow off their horses back in the winter, grooming them and then turning them out into the cold again. Unless you're going to ride, the snow on their backs actually acts as an insulator (much like a snow fort) against the weather and grooming them (I've heard) disrupts the guard hairs and natural oils that protect them in the cold weather. We do try to keep the snow balls out of their feet and off their fetlocks and manes. I don't know if it really bothers them or not, but again, as a human, I wouldn't want snowballs hanging from my hair. Another ill advised practice that I've seen done by our neighbors horses that are kept outside during cold winter months is roached manes??? Unless a horse is being shown or has some medical reason to have a roached mane in the dead of winter, I can't imagine why they would do it? I must ask sometime. Kind of like us going outside without our toques (sorry, Saskatchewan term for a hat).
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 11:09 am:

Hi Nancy, your post showed up after my last one, but your last point ("You know, my point is to offer basic care, and, if they don't need or want it, well, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!") is absolutely correct. The problem is that some people don't even give their horses the option of deciding for themselves. They simply wrap them up in a blanket and lock them in the barn. Granted, some people don't have the luxury of giving their horse choices.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

Hey Sherri
We've been pecking away at the same time this A.M. I had to leave to take my dog to the vet for a bandage change ... he had ACL surgery on his knee, just like a human. And, yes, I am laughing at my own self! Back to the subject, I can tell you obviously offer your horses the best choices, as well as educating yourself to what to provide. I can see how beautifully your horses are turned out by your pictures! As for the people who do not have the luxury of giving their horse choices; as long as the horse is kept well and happy, then, all is fine. If they cannot afford to keep the horse by offering the basic health care, then they should not own the horse!
I do have an interesting discussion for ya ... since I am aware of PMU farms in Canada(and some northern United States as well)! How do you feel about PMU farms? I should probably move this to another site since I'm moving away from the original discussion.
I bet this will be an interesting topic to debate!
Nancy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 12:42 pm:

Hmmm..that would be an interesting discussion, but you're right...better move it to it's own thread.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 1:13 pm:

Nancy-yes. Our mare was at Ventura Farms. That fire burned something like 450 homes. I was in Alaska at the time. It took me two days to get down there. Met Robin McFadden (know her?) and another friend and went down searching for horses. Rescued several, but lost ours. Ventura lost all but about a dozen of theirs inc. mares down to be bred. I should post at another place the story of some of those horses. It was amazing. The aftermath of the fire was the most horrendous thing I have ever seen.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 4:54 pm:

Hi All and this is a good discussion;

I would like to relate my horse's environment and the relevance to this discussion.

He is on a diet of hay cubes in the winter due to allergies or sensitivities. Supplements and concentrates are added to round out the diet. He needs water to wash all this down with. Presently he is on pasture 12 to 15 hours without any problems with a stock tank to water about 17 horses. He goes in a paddock at night with a shelter and watering system. I have observed that he does like to have a good drink when coming in or having a little snack from the concentrates.
Cold, fresh water seems to be his preference and have no incidence of colic to my knowledge.

I don't think I would trust the size of paddock he is in and winter conditions to sufficiently water him if snow was all he had and no other choices.

He is a tough cookie and will survive a tough climate, but if I had some say in the matter, I would want a clean water source by choice. I am sure he has enjoyed a few "Snowcones" in his lifetime, but if I am keeping him in the confines of a fence, it has to be adequate for his survival.

He has no business being kept in a stall all day; bad for his arthritis and allergies. He has free option of shelter, water and salt/mineral block.
After this weekends more than enough rain and then some, my horse barely looked harmed. My only concern would be soft hooves from too much rain.

Susan B.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 5:09 pm:

I don't think even with the 4 1/2 inches of rain we received that I'd be too concerned about soft hooves. It dries up pretty quick around here. I have booked the farrier for Tuesday however, she may as well benefit from a little softer hoof - make her job a little easier for once.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 5:55 pm:

Hi Sherri,
I know you and I share the same environment, but soil structure seems to travel in veins on this flat environment.

From where I live, I can travel 20 minutes by car and notice different soil environments.

Where my horse lives, the pond is now becoming a lake and has engulfed some of the paddocks.

He is due to be reset, but his hooves are soft and crumbly. Very easy to flake away. Never had such issues before .
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Sep 12, 2005 - 6:16 pm:

Standing constantly in water or muck would be problematic. We are fortunate to have hilly pastures and the horses seem to naturally migrate to higher ground where the footing is better and a little drier after a lot of rainfall.

This has been a bad year for hooves in general. Too much rain and then too much heat too quick. The hooves got very dry and brittle. Our farrier is seeing a lot of cracks and bad chips this year.

We usually kick them out of the corrals when they get mucky. Hopefully the rain will subside for now so we can get these bumper crops off! But it'll be at least a week before a combine wheel can turn.
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