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Discussion on An Everything Supplement?
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Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 13, 2005 - 1:41 pm:
Can anyone recommend a supplement or feed that has the "right" amount of vitamins, minerals, MSM/Chron, fats/oils, flax, prebiotics, etc.? Basically, everything a 10 yo light trail horse in Southern California would need who is fed free-choice Timothy Hay, free-choice Redmond salt, and water only? I really want to keep it simple and just have one supplement that covers it all. Does that exist?! The more organic the better - no fillers....
In the past I fed beet pulp and added a bunch of stuff to it, but I am going to be traveling quite a bit and need a reasonably fool-proof and simple feeding regime going forward.
Many thanks!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 13, 2005 - 2:18 pm:
Unless your horse has arthritis or some other problem, I would suggest having your hay analyzed and then just adding whatever vitamins etc that might be lacking, if any. You might now need to add anything.
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 13, 2005 - 3:11 pm:
You might go to equineracing.com and check out their Vitamax product. It has just about everything in it. EO
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 13, 2005 - 3:51 pm:
The "Horse Journal" recently listed two supplements that were supposed to be enough of everything no matter what kind of hay you use. One of them is something I have been using for about a year -- Triple Crown's 12% supplement. They have a web site that gives the nutritional breakdown of all their products. It is necessary to feed about a pound and a half of the 12% supplement daily for an average horse, if I recall correctly. This product is pelleted so it has a good shelf life 6 - 8 months) if kept in a cool place, but about 2 months if kept in heat/humidity. It comes out of Minnesota and their site could tell you the dealer nearest to you. I don't remember what the other supplement mentioned was. If feeding straight Timothy, I would want to ask them (you can E-mail them questions) whether anything else would be necessary to be sure of a good calcium/phosphorous ratio. They also sell T & A cubes (very good to travel with as a hay substitute) and bagged Timothy or Alfalfa forages that come out of Washington State -- cut at the peak time, no blister beetles. A couple of my horses (easy keepers) only get 12% supplement plus grass or hay and all of my horses have done very well on the product.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 14, 2005 - 6:43 am:
Keep it simple Sarah? What makes you think your horse needs any of this. Is your horse having problems with the existing diet of timothy hay and what is the quality of the timothy? For a suggested simplified feeding regimen and discussions on the specifics that you list above see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 14, 2005 - 9:10 am:
Sarah,
Although it is not a multi-vitamin supplement, I love Horsetech's Reitsport. It has flax (omega 3s), biotin (30 mgs), fats, glucosamine, chonDrOitin, MSM, vitamin C, probiotics, etc. I have tried other flax products and love this one. You could also continue to split up your products and put them into Smartpaks, which are easy to store, pack, and use on the road.
Here are the links to Reitsport and Smartpak (which, incidentally also carries Reitsport. Incidentally, my own Smartpak has Reitsport and Accel).
Good luck!
https://www.horsetech.com/reitsport.htm
https://www.smartpakequine.com
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 14, 2005 - 9:17 am:
Also, check out the ingredients in Platinum Performance Equine! My vet recommends this. The only reason I switched to Reitsport was because I wanted glucosamine HCL at higher doses and because I couldn't store the PP in a cool enough environment for it to last very long before it went rancid. It is a great product though!
https://www.platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 14, 2005 - 6:43 pm:
Debbie did your horse have:
1) chronic inflammatory disease (omega 3's)
2) bad hooves (biotin)
3) weight loss (fat)
4) arthritis (chonDrOitin, glucosamine)
5) their are no indications for the MSM and the probiotics and vitamin C are controversial. (We do recommend C supplementation for aged horses.)
And once you began the supplement these problems disappeared?
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 15, 2005 - 9:41 am:
1) He does tend to get skin infections fairly easily, and as far as I can tell the supplement doesn't stop that. It does make his coat more shiny than any other horse at the barn, which is noticed and admired by other boarders. I am not the most consistent groomer, so I can only attribute that to nutrition.
2) He did have very bad hooves when I first got him in May. The supplements have made enough of a difference that you can see an actual line on the hoof from "before" and "after" the supplement.
3) He was skinny when I got him. He has gained weight. I am not sure if this was due to the supplement or the feed, but I am assuming a combination of both. I feed a 10% fat feed, so the feed counts here.
4) He is as sound as a pin, and is only 3, so I agree with you that he probably does not need the glucosamine. However, my vet is of the "can't hurt, might help" opinion when it comes to glucosamine as a preventative. I like to use it myself (I can feel a real difference in my wrists and fingers, which usually hurt).
5) You're a licensed vet and I am a lowly horse owner, so I can not challenge you from a medical perspective! I am just writing that I feel, from personal observation, that the Reitsport has helped my horse. I guess the only real way to see if it has helped is to take him off the supplements, continue to feed the 10% fat feed and take a new CBC to see if there have been any changes.
Thanks as always for your opinion!
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New Member:
Kayababy
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 15, 2005 - 3:02 pm:
If you are looking for a product that does a lot...it might not have all that you need... I use TraceLytes by Springtime Inc. TraceLytes is a vitamin/mineral/trace/hoof supp./electrolyte all in one. Excellent product. I think the website for the company is www.Springtimeinc.com They have great products; all natural with NO fillers. I have my 11 horses all on TraceLytes, Bee Pollen (great for overall health & bloom), with daily 1 or 2 oz scoop of ground flax from the local mill. My competition horses also get Joint Health. Understand I do not work or represent Springtime... to be honest I was a real skeptic when I first tried their products. The proof is in the results, and I have to say the results are amazing. Good Luck.
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 15, 2005 - 4:44 pm:
Amy, I use Springtime products also and you are absolutely right. I have our 24 year old TB stallion, Basket Weave on the joint health. He had arthritis issues when he came here 2 years ago and the joint health pulled him out of it. He acts like he is 12. I also feed him vitamax. The combination is fantastic. EO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 8:39 am:
Don't worry Debbie it is not the challenge that worries me, that is one of the reasons we are here and we love lowly horse owners, in fact I am a lowly horse owner.
But I do want you to think about this: directly and (mostly) indirectly we have taken care of perhaps as many as ten thousand horses in my lifetime. And though specific supplements have occasionally been used to address specific needs the use of a general supplement like this was not needed to keep a single horse healthy. It sounds like when you got this horse he was not in top condition and to repair such a state may take a year or more of good care. I would suggest to you that it is possible your horse improved in spite of this supplement not because of it. You mention you groom your horse less yet it shines the most: I don't know anything that ruins a shiny coat more than frequent bathing and some horses seem to have naturally better coats.
I am also concerned that if you really are getting improvement from such a supplement it may indicate nutrition problems with the feed. I see from your profile where your horses are mainly on pasture and would be interested in further evaluation of the protein content of the forage and feed. It is your $2.35 a day (using the supplements site estimation of daily cost) per horse to feed this supplement that it is very uncertain is doing your horse any good.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 9:10 am:
Debbie,
We got a yearling filly who was a walking skeleton. She had warts, her hair fell off in clumps, her eyes were dull. I fed a mega vitamin supplement for the first 6 months or so just to reassure myself she was getting everything she needed. At first she got mixed hay, sweet feed which was 14% protein then 10% protein. And loose mineral was there for her as needed. At first she went thru a lot of the loose mineral supplement, now she takes some now and then.
She is now a beautiful 3.5 year old. She shines, and her feet are good. She'll always have softer feet,and is sensitive to feed changes but I won't spend more on supplements I don't see any reason to give her. Hay, water and salt like DR.O suggests. We all have a tendency to think more is better, and we think somebody put this together so of course my horse needs it. Horses survived just fine all this time in history without anything but grass! That should tell ya something!
I think we should take the money saved on vitamins and buy the best hay we can afford, and keep the pastures seeded and weeded.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 9:23 am:
I feed 50% complete feed and 50% beet pulp which is the main reason why I supplement. If I could get away with just graining him, I probably wouldn't need the extra supplements.
He is not an easy keeper. I have tried to back off the grains and he loses weight every time, within days. If I increase his grain, he starts getting crampy in his muscles. The only answer is to rely on beet pulp, which is not balanced in and of itself, and extra fats, which the flax gives me.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 9:28 am:
Ann,
I field board along with 20 other horses and have no control over hay or pastures. My horse only gets what he gets when I am there to feed him. I do give him hay cubes along with his beet pulp and complete feed, but no hay. There is no way to ensure he would be the one eating it and not the other 20 horses! I am a nice person, but not nice enough to feed the whole barn quality hay just so my horse can have some good hay.
I feel like I have accidentally hijacked this thread! Thanks for your suggestions Angie and Dr O, but I have to say that my horse looks great with what I have been doing and the difference is quite remarkable.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 6:39 pm:
Well look at it this way Debbie, "we are educating both you and Sarah as this is exactly what Sarah was inquiring about".
I see we have a horse that is prone to tying up but is also a difficult keeper. Beet pulp is fine as a feed, particularly for tying-up prone horses but your supplement does not seem to address the weaknesses in the beet pulp which are:- A very high calcium and very low phosphorous balance
- A slightly low protein.
We seem to be getting the feed information in dribs and drabs Debbie. If you are interested in pursuing the almost sure possibility we can better feed your horse and save you almost a $1000 a year, could you give me the weights of all the feedstuffs fed on a daily basis and the number of hours out on what kind of pasture?
I am still waiting for a reply from Sarah White from my questions above.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Sep 16, 2005 - 7:28 pm:
Well darn, Dr.O!  .
I am getting educated from this discussion also. I have my own fat on, fat off issues, which I will post in my own discussion. The Platinum Performance supplement would address my horses pathologies as Debbie Green suggested and I could say yes to all of the questions you asked in the above post of this discussion.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 18, 2005 - 8:12 am:
Hello Susan B,
Unlike many of the combination products that do not contain adequate amounts of the useful supplements this product does. The useful ones would be the ones for arthritis and improved horn on the hooves. The rest would be speculative and in some cases highly speculative as to whether there is any benefit. You can research these individually in our pages.
However these speculative additions add significant cost and therefore the useful ones can be supplied for a good deal less without a lot more trouble. However if you are experiencing general problems with your horse it suggest some of your feedstuffs are not up to snuff so the solution may be even cheaper, easier, and even better than supplying a few of what might be a across the spectrum deficiency.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Sep 19, 2005 - 10:56 am:
I know, my feed program is a bit complicated. If I have anything listed in my profile, it has surely changed in the past 3 months while I have tried to figure him out.
He gets 2 pounds of Triple Crown Senior (because it is high fat and easy to digest). He also gets 3/4 "dry" pound of beet pulp (which is much more heavy and high volume once soaked) along with 10 or 12 timothy hay cubes that get soaked along with the beet pulp. The beet pulp/hay cube mix gets really HUGE after a few hours.
He also gets 1 pound of rice bran pellets to balance out the calcium of the beet pulp. My vet told me that once we start fooling around with beet pulp and rice bran as a larger percentage of his feed, a multi-vitamin supplement is a good idea since he is not getting all he needs from the processed grains. They recommended Platinum Performance, but I tried to "re-create" this product by mixing Accel with Reitsport since I had such poor success at storing the Platinum Performance. I buy the Reitsport/Accel combination in Smartpaks for ease of use.
I would be happy to DrOp the supplements, but as I said - he is doing great. His only issue is the tendency toward tying up (based on elevated muscle enzymes in his CBCs) if we overdo the grain and getting too thin if we don't feed enough grain. On his current diet, he is doing wonderfully. In fact, I can't help but brag on what a wonderful 3 year old he is. He looks great, rides beautifully, is very sound, easy to train and is quiet enough for my 10 year old son to ride. I love this horse. He is a "forever horse" in our house. Even my husband loves him. That said, if he really doesn't need the supplements, I can think of a lot of other things to spoil him with for the money! 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 20, 2005 - 7:34 am:
Debbie, can you explain a bit more about your pasture situation? Particularly how long is the horse out, the composition of the pasture, and the condition?
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 20, 2005 - 9:22 am:
The horse is out 24/7, and the pasture is of average quality. I am not sure what type of grass they have, but I believe it is a fescue mix. It can get very weedy at times in high summer. The good news is, they do rotate the horses into 2 separate fields to mow and re-seed the field that is resting, which helps maintain the pasture. Both pastures look good right now, but both pastures turn into 100% mud in the winter.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 21, 2005 - 6:53 am:
Ok lets summarize:
3 yo QH whose condition at this time is stable and excellent. He has a history or repeated tying up in the past. His total daily feed consists of:- He is out 24/7 on average fescue pasture.
- 2 lbs Triplecrown Senior
- 3/4 lbs beet pulp
- 1 lb rice bran
- perhaps a lb or 2 of timothy cubes
- Reitsport and Accel supplements
Still have one hole in the information Debbie, how many ounces of each of the supplements do you give?
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 21, 2005 - 9:10 am:
Reitsport = 4 oz per day
Accel = 2 oz per day
Reitsport =
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Ingredient Per Serving Per Pound
Crude Protein, Minimum 18.2 g
Crude Fat, Minimum 27.2 g
Crude Fiber, Maximum 22.7 g
Biotin, Minimum 30 mg
Glucosamine HCl, Minimum 6000 mg
ChonDrOitin Sulfate, Minimum 2000 mg
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), Minimum 10 g
Vitamin C, Minimum 4500 mg
Vitamin E, Minimum 300 IU
Alpha Linolenic Acid, Minimum 15 g
Methionine 6500 mg
Lysine 1,500 mg
INGREDIENTS:
Full-Fat Milled Flaxseed, Methylsolfonylmethane (MSM), Yeast Culture,Glucosamine HCl, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin Supplement, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride (B6), Niacinamide, Riboflavin Supplement (B2), Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine HyDrOchloride (B1), Zinc Amino Acid Complex*, Manganese Amino Acid Complex*, Copper Amino Acid Complex*, Cobalt Glucoheptonate*, Dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, Dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, Dried Whey, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Sodium Sulfate Calcium Carbonate. *supplied by Zinpro Availa-4 - Zinpro is a registered trademark of ZINPRO Corp.
Accel =
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Ingredient Per Serving Per Pound
Lysine 0.77% 3,500 mg
Methionine 0.55% 2,500 mg
Tryptophane 0.27% 1,200 mg
Glycine 0.70% 3,160 mg
Cystine 0.20% 920 mg
Arginine 0.61% 2,780 mg
Histidine 0.21% 960 mg
Leucine 0.97% 4,400 mg
Isoleucine 0.67% 3,020 mg
Phenylalanine 0.59% 2,670 mg
Tyrosine 0.44% 2,000 mg
Theronine 0.54% 2,460 mg
Valine 0.77% 3,480 mg
Aspartic acid 0.17% 750 mg
Calcium, min 4.01% 18,182 mg
Calcium, max 4.81% 21,819 mg
Phosphorus 3.03% 13,730 mg
Magnesium 2.05% 9,278 mg
Potassium 1.51% 6,831 mg
Sulfur 6.893 ppm 3,127 mg
Iron 5,688 ppm 2,580 mg
Zinc 1,323 ppm 600 mg
Manganese 1,102 ppm 500 mg
Copper 441 ppm 200 mg
Cobalt 22 ppm 10 mg
Iodine 22 ppm 10 mg
Selenium 9 ppm 4 mg
Vitamin A 100,000 IU
Vitamin D3 20,000 IU
Vitamin E 4,000 IU
Vitamin B12 3 mg
Menadione 4 mg
Riboflavin 1,000 mg
d-Pantothenic acid 200 mg
Thiamine 224 mg
Niacin 500 mg
Vitamin B6 243 mg
Folic Acid 80 mg
Choline 2,866 mg
d-Biotin 8 mg
Ascorbic Acid 500 mg
Amylase activity, min 0.625 CMC units
Protease activity, min 60 HUT
Cellulase activity, min 10 BAU
Mixed Lactic Acid Bacteria 3.69 x 10(6) CFU/gm
Saccharomyces cerevisiae 9.92 x 10(6) CFU/gm
INGREDIENTS:
Dehydrated alfalfa meal, mineral oil, dried whey product, dried whey, dried skim milk, molasses, soy flour, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, magnesium oxide, iron proteinate, choline chloride, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, cobalt proteinate, ethylene diamine dihydriodide (source of iodine), dl-methionine, vitamin A supplement,d-activated animal sterol (source of vitamin D3), vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid, vitamin B-12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, niacin, folic acid, pyridoxine hyDrOchloride, thiamine mono-nitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), d-biotin, sodium selenite, fermentation products dehydrated of: Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus fermentum, Pediococcus acidilactic, natural flavoring and artificial flavorings. Contains a source of: amylase, which can hyDrOlyze starch, protease, which can hyDrOlyze proteins, and cellulase, which can break down cellulose.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 21, 2005 - 9:11 am:
Oh, and the food amounts are fed twice per day.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 21, 2005 - 11:05 am:
Balancing minerals is difficult. Rice bran is very high in phosphorus, beet pulp is high in calcium but not as high as alfalfa. If you are giving 3/4 pound beet pulp and 1 pound rice bran I cannot help but wonder if the phosphorous is actually a bit too high. There is a very interesting article on this at: www.Shady-acres.com/susan/ricebran.shtml
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 6:46 am:
Hello Vicki,
Balancing the calcium / phosphorous using beet pulp and bran is covered in the article Overview of Forages where we discuss beet pulp usage in the horses diet and will be one of the changes we recommend to Debbie. Taken alone you would be correct they are badly out of balance.
Debie, got it twice a day, is that all of the foodstuffs except the supplements? Debbie how about mineral supplementation other than the supplements, is there a trace mineral block in the pasture? If so what color is it? Also, are there any mineral deficiencies in your area that you are aware of?
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 9:13 am:
The horses have free access to large, covered salt blocks in the field. They are the plain white kind, not the fortified kind. I occasionally give him electrolytes (Apple a Day brand) on particularly hot/humid days when he sweats a lot.
There are known Vitamin E and Selenium deficiencies in my area.
I just checked my rice bran. They do add some calcium to help balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio. Here is the information (Equi-Jewel brand)
EQUI-JEWEL
EQUI-JEWEL is a highly digestible source of fat for horses of all ages. The addition of EQUI-JEWEL to the diet allows horses to consume more calories (energy) without feeding excessive amounts of concentrate. EQUI-JEWEL has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio which is unique among rice bran supplements. EQUI-JEWEL is very palatable and contains essential amino acids which are necessary for healthy skin and a shiny coat.
Feeding Directions:
Feed 1 to 2 lbs of EQUI-JEWEL per day to the current ration. If more than 1 lb of EQUI-JEWEL is fed per day, divide total amount between meals.
Crude Protein (min) 12.50%
Crude Fat (min) 20.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 13.00%
Calcium (min) 3.25%
Calcium (max) 4.25%
Phosphorus (min) 1.75%
Free Fatty Acids (max) 4.00%
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 10:14 am:
The plot thickens. Just as I think I am about to get to the bottom something new comes along. Note that vitamin E,unlike selenium, is not related to local soil conditions but is made by the grass. Unless you can think of something else I think we are ready to "digest" all the above. Anything?
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 10:34 am:
That's it Dr O, we are done! No more rocks to look under.
My horse and I anxiously await your response (he made a special request that you advise I give him lots and lots of extra carrots).
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 22, 2005 - 10:39 am:
Just in case you wanted to be bombarded with even more data, here is the breakdown and ingredients of Triple Crown Senior:
TRIPLE CROWN SENIOR
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein (min.) 14.00%
Lysine (min.) 0.70%
Methionine & Cystine (min.) 0.35%
Threonine (min.) 0.40%
Crude Fat (min.) 10.00%
Crude Fiber (max.) 17.00%
Calcium (min.) 0.90%
Calcium (max.) 1.40%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.60%
Magnesium (min.) 0.37%
Iron (min.) 175.00 ppm
Potassium (min.) 1.25%
Selenium (min.) 0.50 ppm
Zinc (min.) 170.00 ppm
Manganese (min.) 100.00 ppm
Copper (min.) 55.00 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) 6,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D (min.) 1,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E (min.) 170 IU/lb
Vitamin C (min.) 45 mg/lb
Biotin (min.) 0.30 mg/lb
Lactobacillus Acidophilus Bacteria (min.) 1.3 million CFU/gm
Saccharomyces Cerevisiae (min.) 2.5 million CFU/gm
Cellulase (min.) 110 CMC–ase units/lb
Protease (min.) 0.40 Northrup Units/lb
INGREDIENTS:
Free from Restricted Ruminant Protein Products per Title 21, CFR 589.2000)
Shredded Beet Pulp, Alfalfa Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Distillers Dried Grains, Wheat Middlings, Rice Bran, Soybean Hulls, Cane Molasses, Ground Limestone, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium-Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Sesquicarbonate, Magnesium Oxide, Calcium Carbonate, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Manganous Sulfate, Magnesium Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Choline Chloride, d-Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride, Folic Acid, Beta Carotene, Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Yeast Culture, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Yeast Fermentation Solubles, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, D. L. Methionine, L-Lysine, Soybean Oil, (Propionic Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate (Preservatives)), Kelp Meal, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Ground Flax Seed, Lecithin, Fenugreek Seed, Anethole.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 23, 2005 - 9:18 am:
Ok, let me play with this over the weekend, I have not quite decided how to tackle this to best illuminate nutrition principles but I have some ideas.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 10:59 am:
I have not forgot but am devoting a little time each day, I will post when I have it done.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 27, 2005 - 10:34 am:
Okay, let’s summarize again. He has a history of not being in good condition when first bought. A 3 yo QH whose condition at this time is stable and excellent. He has repeatedly tied up in the past. His daily feed consist of (one should note that the ingredient levels posted above for the Reitsport are for a 6 oz serving and for the Accel per lb and not for the serving amounts Debbie is using below):- He is out 24/7 on average fescue pasture (10% protein, adequate amounts of vitamins and probably minerals with the possible exception of selenium).
- 4 lbs Triplecrown Senior (14% protein, 10% fat, 1% Ca. 0.6% Phos. Vitamin, mineral, live probiotic supplemented)
- 1.5 lbs beet pulp (9% protein, 1%Ca)
- 2 lbs Equine JeweL (fortified rice bran supplement 12.5% protein, 20% fat, 3.75% Ca, 1.75% Phos)
- 4lbs appx. of timothy cubes. (9% protein, 0.3% Ca, 0.2% phos)
- 4 oz Reitsport (fortified full fat flax supplement: 15 gm linoleic acid, and good amounts of foot and joint support)
- 2 oz Accel (Live probiotic, and small amounts of vitamins, amino acids, etc..)
It is my proposition Debbie that your horse improved do to generally better overall nutrition provided by the forage and the concentrates and that the 2 supplements you are adding were incidental to the improvement. Also the tying up has improved because of the decreased amount of starch fed by supplementation with high fat concentrates, the high fat bran supplementation, and beet pulp.
Quite frankly the Accel fed at 2oz. a day provides no nutrition that is not being already supplied in the main feedstuffs in excess. The concept of Accel is that some essential ammino acids are not available in optimal ratios from grains (true) and that the probiotic organisms will improve digestion (unproven). However with your horses access to fescue, a grass that has high amounts of well balanced protein and a non-grain based concentrate with 14% protein that has been fortified for those aa that tend to be low makes this an unnecessary additive. Also if you like the probiotic theory your concentrate provides it in greater (appx 15x greater) amounts than the Accel.
Concerning the Reitsport lets start with the linoleic acid from the flax. Linoleic acid is assumed to be an essential fatty acid in horses like other species. But unlike other species when linoleic acid deprived diets where fed to ponies for extended periods no adverse clinical signs were found [Sallmann et al.: Proc Equine Nutr and Physiol Soc Symp, pp 81-82 (1991)]. Besides this linoleic acid is found in large amounts in the fats that are commonly found in forages, grains, and other common horse feeds. In no-fat fortified feeds horses are receiving up to 30 times the amount these ponies received in the study. Your diet is fat fortified and so may contain several times more than in no-fat fortified feeds. Clearly the extra linoleic acid is not needed.
The foot supplements in the Reitsport are methionine, an essential amino acid, and high levels of biotin a vitamin. While there are a few horses while receiving good nutrition that have poor feet that might benefit from this, there is no proof this is true of your horse. He came to you in less than good condition and was the reason for the early problems. After all the horn that was at the top of the foot takes almost a year to grow out so it takes a year to recover from such problems. I suggest that you experiment without the supplement to see if the feet remain healthy, you have about a 99% chance that is the case.
It is unknown if chonDrOitin and glucosamine supplementation from the Reitsport will act as a joint protector in healthy joints. I agree it is unlikely to hurt to give them but realize this is purely experimental.
This brings us to the nutritional problem you have identified: low selenium in the area. There are no supplements here that are likely to correct this problem though the high vitamin E may ameliorate the problem. However fresh grass is high in vitamin E and the other essential vitamins needed in the diet. Here is my suggestion. Discontinue the 2 high price supplements, make up the weight difference with the Triple Crown and add 2 ounces of loose fortified mineral salts to the daily feed. Also when the pastures are poor and hay is a high percentage of the forage, if that hay is of medium to poor quality I would add 6 human adult vitamins (a inexpensive but name brand vitamin will do). After reviewing the Ca and P (the bran fortifies the calcium and the amount of beet pulp is a small amount of the total feed which is primarily grass) I think it evens out in the wash.
I believe this will save you thousands of dollars over the years and your horses health will be at least as good as it is now. After all this is true of thousands of other horses I have known.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 27, 2005 - 10:59 am:
Hello Dr. O,
Thanks for the detailed analysis! Now you will be flooded by other owners trying to do the same - don't say I didn't warn you once it happens.
I am happy to get rid of the Accel if my horse is getting enough general vitamins, but am iffy about the Reitsport because I still like the idea of the biotin and the glucosamine. If I DrOpped the Reitsport and only supplemented biotin and glucosamine as separate products, it would cost me the same as I am paying now anyway to get the two combined in one product.
Let me mull this over though, as it would be great to save the money. I will keep you posted, especially if I go "cold turkey" and DrOp all the supplements!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 27, 2005 - 11:12 am:
I do have one more question, though perhaps it doesn't matter since he is doing well and since I already know you are anti-supplement.
Do you think that magnesium is helpful for horses who tie up? Is there any other supplement that has been proven in double blind studies to support muscle systems against tying up?
Its not broke, so I am not trying to fix it. I just want to know your thoughts (though I think I already know what your answer will be).
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Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 27, 2005 - 4:44 pm:
Hi All,
I apologize for being incognito after posting my first message - I was without a computer. I have read the entire discussion - very educational and enlightening - thank you. I'm still not quite sure how to assess if the Timothy Hay and Redmond Salt is enough in vitamins, minerals, etc. etc. - I'd get the hay analyzed but it probably changes in nutritional value on a fairly regular basis?
Being that Charlie is 10 and a little stiff in the hip after a ride, I'm wondering if I should use MSM/Gluc too. If yes....should i get the one that has that acid in (H- something?).
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 6:59 am:
Debbie, they will get the information by going through the nutrition article but I felt a need to rebut your insistence that this type supplementation was a good idea. It is not that I am anti-supplement, but I am against buying and feeding unnecessary foodstuffs.
I don't know of any tying up conditions responsive to magnesium supplementation and magnesium deficiency would be unusual as most horse feeds contain adequate amounts of magnesium.
Welcome back Sarah, did you get a chance to read the article referenced above in my first reply? Concerning evaluation of the hay see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Forages for Horses, an Overview.
For our suggestions on oral arthritis supplements see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments. But considering this is a life long and fairly expensive endeavor I would first have an exam following a long ride to see if this is likely to be muscle, joint, or the most common problem seen following a long ride: foot soreness.
DrO
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Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 12:24 pm:
I haven't had a chance yet Dr. O but will do shortly - thank you. Charlie and I went for a lesson a couple of weeks ago (what a bore - round and round in circles - I'm going to stick with trail riding!!) and the trainer thinks one of his hind legs is shorter than the other....it causes him to cross-canter and I think its also resulting in hip pain. I gave him a massage afterwards, and he was extremely sensitive over the rump and behind the point of hip. Not sure if that helps but I will also get some help this end to help determine the problem. I use a barefoot trimmer and his feet have never been better or tougher (he used to have WLD etc. with shoes) so I don't think its sore feet as it happened more after round and round soft ground for lesson. His right hip also makes a clicking sound sometimes.
Thanks for all the advice. I love this site!
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 2:53 pm:
Hello Sarah,
Thank you for posting this question about supplements. I have learned a lot even though I didn't really participate that much.
Reading your last post does make me wonder if your horse has some arthritic issues in the hind end. Usually the hocks are the most common area
for this to show up in. Could also be sore muscles from going round and round in the sand pen.
Dr.O gave you very good advice in the above post and you might want to explore those avenues. In the meantime give your buddy the best nutrition you can afford. It is the foundation for healthy horsekeeping.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 6:39 pm:
Susan is right, always buy quality feed, the best hay you can find, and keep those pastures healthy!
I have been following the "leg is shorter on one side argument" for more than 15 years and I really don't think this happens. Some horses don't stand even but it is not because a leg is shorter but more to do with alternate resting of the legs, particularly the rears. Cross-cantering and popping of the joints are common events in some horses, and by themselves, do not indicate joint pathology. Cross-cantering can occur with lameness but the lameness should be visible at least to a practiced eye.
I am starting to feel like that guy on the commercial that keeps saying "no".
DrO
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Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 7:29 pm:
No Dr. O!
Thanks - you make sense to me. Do you fancy popping out to Santa Barbara, California just to confirm though? :-)
Thanks for all your help - much appreciated.
Sarah
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Member:
Denise43
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 29, 2005 - 7:24 am:
Hello Sarah, I started using a suppliment called: FOR-A-FLEX Multi-Vitamin Equine Supplement, sold thru Countrysupply.com. I feed my horses the best hay in the area, loose minerals, white salt block and 1 cup of Nutrina prime w/ this suppliment once a day. They are all healthy, young horses moderately used. I am a stickler on the K.I.S.S. rule. ;-) So far this feeding program works great for my horses. Enjoy~D
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 29, 2005 - 10:35 am:
Dr. O, we NEED you to say no where warranted! There are so many different products out there and therapies...it helps to have someone point things out as you do. Thank you for that.
Sarah, thanks for the good thread!
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 1, 2005 - 7:33 am:
Dear everyone,
I use Amerdon Rapid Response T. If you call and order you will also receive RR for humans as a free trial. It is a great joint supplement for me as well as a wonderful digestive aid for my stomach. I have only been on the human RR for almost two months. Let me tell you--I feel so much better.
Sharone who is head of Amerdon is a very nice lady. She will answer any questions you may have about the products available her #1-800-331-1036. Please let her know that Wendy From the Palisades in Calif referred you. Even though it cost $279 a gallon. It has been worth it. My horse has been sound as a dollar. It has been almost three years since I have had to have the vet inject his hocks. Aly has been on the RR for almost three years.
Good Luck,
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2005 - 4:45 pm:
WTG can you tell us what is in the Amerdon Rapid Response T supplement?
DrO
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Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2005 - 9:36 pm:
I'm sorry this is long - but I find it a very interesting article and would love your thoughts Dr. O...
A Horse, of Course
by Don Blazer
Feeding that bran mash may be a danger to the health of your horse's hoof.
And biotin supplements aren't going to help.
If you want your horse to have a healthy hoof, you've got to feed his feet and make sure he has adequate access to movement.
Good nutrition and exercise pays off in a healthy hoof.
Do not feed bran if your horse has any hoof problems, or even if he doesn't have problems. Oats or other grain brans contain phytate which is high in phosphorus and will block absorption of calcium in the small intestine, producing a systemic calcium deficiency, according to J. Frank Gravlee, DVM, MS. Dr. Gravlee is an equine veterinarian and founder of Life Data Labs in Cherokee, Alabama. Calcium, Dr. Gravlee says, is necessary for the strong bonding of keratinized cells to produce a strong hoof.
Dr. Gravlee says if you are feeding bran to regulate stool consistency switch to sugar beet pulp. If you are using bran to prevent sand colic, use psyllium instead, he says. (Personally, I say feed the horse adequate amounts of forage and he won't be sifting through dirt and sand looking for that last blade of grass. Your horse should have a handful of hay left at the time of his next feeding.)
Biotin, the popular "hoof growth supplement," is only one of many nutrients needed for a health hoof, and biotin is only needed in small amounts. Dr. Gravlee points to studies which clearly show a horse with a normally functioning GI tract has no biotin supplement need. Research has also shown that feeding more than the physiological amount of biotin does not improve hoof growth and strength, he says.
What you do need to feed is loose salt, vitamin C, copper and zinc, says Dr. Gravlee.
Be sure your horse has access to loose salt. Salt blocks are fine for cattle, but a horse has a smooth tongue and cannot lick adequate amounts of salt, and if they do attempt to, it can cause painful lesions and sores on the tongue which you will probably not see without a thorough exam. Do not depend on a salt block. Horses fed a premixed feed often get adequate amounts of salt, so if fed loose salt, they may ignore it.
Copper and vitamin C, according to Dr. Gravlee, are necessary catalysts for forming health, connective hoof tissue and should be provided through the daily diet or supplemented. Check your feeding program to be sure copper and vitamin are provided in adequate amounts. DL-methionine, praline, glycine and glutamic acid are major building blocks for healthy connective tissues.
Zinc is a requirement for a health hoof. Without the proper amount of zinc, the hoof suffers parakaratosis, a defect in the maturation of keratin, which leaves the hoof soft and structurally weak.
Dr. Gravlee cautions that the proper amount of zinc must be in the proper ratio with cooper.
Do not start feeding supplements just as an "insurance policy." If you do not know for certain that you have a dietary deficiency, do not supplement.
And no horse should be given more than one supplement at a time. Feeding multiple supplements leaves you with no baseline and no way to determine the effectiveness of supplementation. In addition, multiple supplements can create "combination" problems.
Be sure to adjust your horses grain intake during the colder coming months. Common misconception is to feed more grain when it is colder. WRONG! Feed less grain, more forage. Because, most horses tend to drink less - even just a little bit less makes a big difference and this can cause colic and/or digestive distress/ulcers. More grain in summer, less in winter. Simple.
Finally, essential fatty acids are necessary for the creation of a healthy pliable hoof. Fatty acids are obtained from quality grains, unprocessed grain oils, cooked whole soybeans and lecithin. Processed vegetable or corn oils we use for cooking is NOT healthy for your horse and very difficult for them to digest. If using an oil, consider an unprocessed flax seed oil. My personal favorite is a coconut/soybean oil made by Uckele, called Cocosoya Oil. I haven't met a horse yet that didn't grow to love this oil, and it is fantastic for the hoof, coat and much more.
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2005 - 11:58 pm:
Dear Dr.O,
The next time I order my RR I will post the ingredients. It comes with each shipment along with testimonials from across America. Last time I gave the packet to another friend who now has her horses on RR and is definitely seeing a difference. Her horses have a better attitude-more willing to work and do their job, better coat quality, more muscle because they are able to work and gain strength instead of being stalled for lameness or whatever else was wrong with them,their eyes are brighter,their hooves are stronger and better looking, their poop is much healthier and their overall health has improved greatly. All of the horses that I have seen that have been on RR are much happier horses.
For years I used to ride at Foxfield Riding Academy with Nicollette Sheridan. This quarters Show Circuit Magazine summer issue 2005 volume 12 number 3 featured Nicollette with her rescued horses all of which are on Rapid Response T. Nicollette takes it herself for a back condition, and says it can work miracles. One horse in particular was rescued from the butcher. The before and after photos are astonishing. Apparently at 18+ hands he was several hundred pounds under weight and very lame on more than one leg. Jenny Martin now rides him in the Grand Prix ring. His name is Grande Noir.
I already knew that RR works miracles 2 1/2 years ago when my vet told me my horse did not have to have his hocks injected that year. He has not had his hocks injected for almost three years now. Most of the horses about 75% on the A Circuit have to have their hocks injected annually. Some horses get injected twice a year.
We jump enough obstacles to warrant, in my mind, special products for my special horse.
If you need the ingredients asap maybe you can call the toll free number posted above. I will look for the website URL to post as well. I am fully stocked up so it may be awhile before I can post.
I do know that it has many vitamins, glucosamine-chonDrOitin, digestive aids, etc. Supposedly RR supplies the horse with the nutrition it needs to repair itself naturally. All I know is RR has changed my horses life and my life for the better.
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 3, 2005 - 7:03 am:
Sarah there are many points made in the above article and we discuss all of them at various points in the articles on this site. Though there are a lot of general statements that are true there are some statements that are not consistent with current equine nutritional science. Certainly the most glaring error is the comment about processed vegetable oils being difficult to digest, I have seen much scientific work that states or at least implies the opposite and not a single one consistent with that statement.
If you review our articles on Overview, Minerals, Bran, and Fats (we have an article on each of these subjects in the nutrition section) you can get our specific thoughts on these subjects. If you have a specific question I would be glad to address that.
DrO
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Monday, Oct 3, 2005 - 10:26 pm:
Dear Dr.O,
I have only had my laptop for a week so I am still stocking up on all of the web sites I enjoy. Amerdon Rapid Response can be accessed through their website.
I hope I am doing this correctlyhttps://www.amerdon.com
Today is the first time I visited the site to get info for you. Usually I just call the 800# to order. There is so much info I would not know where to begin to relay to you.
I urge you to visit the site to see what I mean.
WTG
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 4, 2005 - 12:09 am:
Dear Everyone,
Just thought I would explain why I started using Amerdon's Rapid Response. My horse was having a problem with his hocks. He was also stiff to the left. He was never dead lame just off slightly a year into training.
I tried everything such as, acupuncture (once every two weeks for 3 months, massage(came with the acupuncturist), legend(still using),cosequin(still using),MSM, or any supplement that may help this situation. With out drugs ie Banamine or Bute.
My other option was to put him out to pasture for awhile and not ride. Since he had been so severely neglected I opted for a 24X48 open pipe corral 1/4 covered so we could still ride. He loves it. He is sound.
Before I got him, he was stalled for a year in a 12x12 with an in and out(12X12)because the previous owner was nuts and scared of him. She hired me in Feb 2000 to restart him at the age of 6.
Two years later I ended up owning him because I was the only one who could or would ride him. He could be quite explosive.
From the day I bought him we started jumping. He loved it. It was like he could finally use his athletic ability to good use instead of bad behavior. The first two years were spent on the flat because the previous owner wouldn't let me jump him.
I should have known he could jump because when we first started learning our lead changes in 2000 he would capriole 3-4ft into the air and buck out behind. Within 2 weeks he had auto changes.
In 2002 when my vet went to inject his hocks he found that the synovial fluid was very thin as it should be thicker more gel like. He said that because the horse had been standing for so long it decreased the circulation. Therefore the synovial fluid was not able to regenerate itself properly. He also said the synovial fluid may never be able to regenerate itself properly and recommended Legend. We have been on it ever since.
With Rapid Response his synovial fluid has regenerated itself and we have not had a sore or lameness problem since. That was three years ago this month.
Sometimes a person is lucky enough to find a product that works. For me and my special horse, Rapid Response is the cure.
Sincerely,
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2005 - 11:06 am:
Hello WTG,
I took the time to visit the Amerdon site and looked at the pages discussion Rapid Response and have to admit I was not impressed.
Much of the text reads like a high school health text on nutrition and the ingredients listed can be found in many regular equine feedstuffs and they don't list the actual ingredient origins nor the amount of the "active elements" that they list. Though they are long on anecdotal stories I don't see any scientific published work on this scientifically advanced proprietary process resulting in a unique new dietary natural food supplement. At least that I can find.
DrO
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New Member:
Remmi
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 4:12 pm:
Dear Dr. O,
Are you available for a nutrition consultation? I am looking for someone (not a feed company) that I can send my hay analysis to and who could address the different needs of my two horses. If not, do you have a suggestion on where I could find such an expert?
Thank you.
Heidi W.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
Just post your results in a new discussion Heidi along with details of pasture turn out, concentrates (composition amount fed by weight and frequency fed), and your horses overall condition on the Henneke scale, see Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation.
But before you do you should read the article Care for Horses » Nutrition » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses you should find you can do the evaluation yourself.
DrO
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