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  Discussion on Weanling diet?
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Member:
Uptigrov

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 5:45 pm:

Dr. O I own a 9 month old "canadian" he is just 14 HH now and doing well but I have elected to go conservative on his food additives. He is on a 14% alfalpha/timothy/brome hay as well he gets half an icecream bucket of 12% complete feed daily (about 2 llbs.) mixed with hoffmans minerals and flax seed. My concerns are giving him too much protein and running into ocd problems so he gets everything in moderation- really just as a treat. If the breeder had her way he would get straight alphalfa hay!! Do you see any obvious concerns with the route I have chosen. I feel I have done my homework to ensure that I have him on a safe feeding program that won't cause any problems-hopefully. If you have any advice about what else I should or shouldn't do I would appreciate it. Thank You. Tracy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 9:02 am:

I do not see anything wrong with your choice of feeds Tracy and prefer it to the straight alfalfa diet.
DrO
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 2004 - 6:43 pm:

i am at wits end, I am having problems with the way or what I am feeding apparently. Several of my weanlings over the last couple of years have developed a club foot, from growing too fast. I dont feed any grain. I do feed about half and half first cutting alfalfa and good quality grass hay with immature heads. I have been using nutrena horse protein and mineral blocks along with this, plus salt blocks free choice. They have a large paddock to roam in about an acre in size, so they are not confined. the club foot doesnt develop until after weaning usually, sometimes not until they are a year old, but his year I have two of them, one caused by slightly contracted tendons in a 325 day foal and the other one has just started getting a noticable clubiness to one front foot, she is 5 months old and a big filly. My vet is telling me that their bones are outgrowing their tendons. How do I stop this? I have raised many other horses with never a problem, it only seems to be certain mares foals, usually they are heavy milkers. I dont know if I am giving too much protein or not enough! I just weaned these two fillies and want to know if I should give them some nutrena youth feed in place of the alfalfa.
New Member:
DeeDrOtt

Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 2004 - 9:32 pm:

Christine

Not sure where you are located but but we feed Buckeye products to all our horses. We started on this program 4+ years ago and have had great success with Broodmare and foals. The feed is wonderful for the mares and we have had some absolutly wonderful foals. We breed TB and TB/WB crosses. We had 4 last year all TB and 5 this year 2 TB and 3 TB/WB crosses and have not had any problems with any of them. The 2005 foaling years will be bringing us 1- TB/Percheron cross, 3-TB, and 3 TB/WB cross.

If you follow the program as Buckeye recommends you should turn out some exceptional babies. Of course I need to mention that the hay plays a great part in the feed program since their products are fed depending on what hay you feed. Also, they have the mineral blocks that play a part since they are grass or alpha blocks.

It sounds like you may want to look into a new feed program. Just a thought it sure worked for us.

Good Luck
Dee
Borderline Farm
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 5:35 am:

Christine,
I think you should immediately cut all protein supplementation for these babies. Checking for adequate and balanced copper/zinc levels is also a good idea.
If you know a couple of mares are producing too much milk, adjust their feed accordingly so they produce less and a bit poorer quality.
Separating overweight foals from their mothers for an hour or so twice a day will not only skip them a few meals, it is also a nice chance to train them a bit if you have the time.

Christos
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 5:54 am:

DrO has an article for this at:
Equine diseases/ lameness/ diseases of the lower limb / contracted tendons
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 9:26 am:

The gound and hay here is copper/zinc and iron deficient but has a lotof selenium. I have a really hard time finding any kind of pelleted feed that doesnt have way too much added selenium. I have talked to Buckeye about this and they add selenium to every one of their bagged feeds. The nutrena horse blocks take care of the mineral deficiency but maybe they dont need the extra protein, so I will switch to a plain vitamin/mineral block, purina makes one I have used in the past. I know my hay is very high protein. I feed approx half alfalfa and half grass because of this, maybe I am just over feeding the mares and weanlings. I am going to start using some nutrena youth feed in place of some of the alfalfa for the weanlings.
I put the mares and foals on some pasture almost every afternoon for about 4 hours. The pasture isnt great, but it has some grass and lots of room for the foals to run and play. I have been weaning at five months, maybe I should start weaning at four months? I feed a total of about 8 bales of hay to 26 horses, which includes the weanlings.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 11:57 am:

Hey Christine...I do not know why, but most feed companies still offer feed for mares in foal and young foals with a very high protein! NOT ADVISABLE! I suppose they still manufacture it because show horses of most breeds are needed to be bigger sooner than they might normally in a natural situation...I have seen this high protein(14%or higher) cause problems time and time again. Even though club feet can be hereditary, I believe, so cutting down on protein might not solve your particular problem, it is the only factor that I might suggest you look out for! Sometimes, genetics play a role that is dominant over most environmental factors...GOOD LUCK!
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 12:57 pm:

this is definitely a feeding problem, I know I am doing something wrong with the feed or the vitamins and minerals. All of the foals this year were probably too fat, so they were growing too fast. I am going to cut the weanlings way back on the alfalfa and try some nutrena youth feed along with the grass hay I have. I believe my alfalfa hay is probably higher than 14% protein. I get it from a man who is a farmer and it is the best in the area, not a weed in it, or a blossom. I have to give a mineral supplement because of the soils here and I think I made a mistake in using the protein/mineral blocks instead of just plain mineral/vitamin blocks.
If the problem were inherited, they would be born with it and none of the foals were born with club feet or contracted tendons except the one this year. She is out of an old mare, 20, and I think I let her get too fat this past winter.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 2:11 pm:

Hello Everyone,
Research shows that foals grow healthiest when fed a diet containing 12 to 14% protein. In one experiment several years ago many foals fed a 30% protein diet while growing had no more developmental orthopedic diseases than those fed a 10% protein diet. The problem is more likely one of excess energy that often accompanies a high protein diet.

It is also incorrect to believe that genetics are not involved just because it occurs after birth. I knew a Arab stallion that 1/3 of the foals developed a right fore club about their 3rd or 4th month. This happened over several years, with many mares, and dozens of foals that I observed personally. It usually came on in the third month and obviously was a genetic fault of the stallion.

Christine for more on this and how we would recommend you feed your foals see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Feeding the Growing Foal, Nutrition for Young Horses. For information on treatment see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tendon Laxity and Contracture.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 4:26 pm:

Interesting, Dr Oglesby! I, personally stopped feeding those very high protein feeds to my mares in foal and young horses because that when OCD was occuring,it was with high protein feed. Plus, since I feed a high protein hay,I. decided to not overdo it with high protein feed...did not notice any difference in the excess energy, but only a small sampling of horses that I have raised or were being raised at the breeding barn where I was(so, of course, very anecdotal evidence). What would you consider the advantages or disadvantages of feeding those really high protein feeds(30%stuff), except for the excitability factor? Thanks, Nancy
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 4:42 pm:

After carefully looking at the second weanling, she does not have a club foot, she just needed trimming, which I did this morning! The other filly , the premature one, 325days, born slightly contracted, does have one club foot, apparently from walking on her tip toe on that leg, even after she was given tetracycaline(sp) the day after birth. This again, is the only foal I have ever had born premature and also born contracted. Her dam is an older mare, now 21 and is a big heavy built mare. I think I let her get too fat while she was in foal, which probably caused her foal to be born early and tiny. the filly is perfect otherwise and has no other problems. She is bred back again and i will be making sure she doesnt get overly heavy this year. I have a really good farrier who is working on the little filly now and I think he will be able to eventually trim her out of it. In the meantime, I am adjusting their feed to try to give them the proper calcium, phosphorus, and vitamins and minerals they need to grow at the correct rate.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 6:49 am:

Hello Nancy,
The 30% diet is not a recommendation it was a large scale experiment to see if very high protein diets could induce developmental orthopedic disease. Such a diet is difficult to maintain, as the researchers found, because they had a lot of trouble getting the protein that high without jacking up the energy.

Your second post highlights the problem with your earlier recommendation: it does not take into account the rest of the diet. If you are feeding higher protein forages, you should adjust the protein downward, but if you are feeding a moderate quality grass hay you have to adjust upward. The idea is that there are ideal levels that are in the 12 to 14% range for rapidly growing horses, but you have to consider the total amount of protein from all foodstuffs.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 11:18 am:

I agree with you, and considering my turnout grazing, feed, and alfalfa mix hay, my protein levels should be in that 12 to 14% range. Thanks... though I still wonder about those feeds I see for "mares and foals" with those high protein levels. P.S. What do you think about the new fat contents advertised in feeds(from 6%to 10%)? What would be advisable? Again, thanks! Nancy(and what about all those peppermints? Just kidding!)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2004 - 8:36 am:

Hello Nancy,
If the forage is 8% and the concentrate 14% and you feed 1/2 and 1/2 you get an 11% protein in the total diet. As the foal ages and forage makes up a greater part of the diet you may have to result to a 16% concentrate feed...or higher. Again, it is the total make up and since you agree your foals get a 12 to 14% protein, I don't understand your confusion.

Concerning the use of fat in the diet of horses we have an article on this at, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2004 - 10:57 am:

Hey DrO,
I finally remembered to look at the bags of "mare and foal" feeds in the feed store to check out the protein percentages...they were not as high as I "remembered", so it all makes sense to me now... THANKS for the information!
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Monday, Sep 5, 2005 - 1:22 pm:

I read the growing foals nutrition article because I was checking up what to feed my 5 month old foal, weaned 2 days ago. The old rule of thumb was always 1 lb concentrates per month of life ie 5 lbs per day.

[and my contribution to the great weaning debate? Clean break. Just do it. Load mum up and drive her away... preferably so she arrives at new destination just before dark to reduce the eareache. No hassle. Mum neighed for the first 10 minutes on the road, foal neighed for 20 minutes, over and done with. Actually I should have left the foal in the field with the others but a friend of mine was telling me horror stories about foals injured trying to get out of fields so I shut her in the stable overnight and put he back in with the others next day.]

Anyway, off I trotted to the Co-op to get foal pellets and alfalfa even though the last foal refused to eat anything except coarse mix (sweet mix).

Did the maths... even allowing for weight tapes overestimating foal weights, she's about 400 lbs, and Mum is 1100 lbs. So that's about 7 lbs foal pellets and 5 lbs alfalfa a day according to the article... weighed it out to have a look.

What! That's far too much for a foal on good pasture in my humble opinion... are you all sure they need that much! Let alone the practicalities - it's pitch dark when I get home from work so I was hoping to keep it down to one feed a day.

This foal is already 13 h 2 inches so I would be concerned to ensure I do not OVER feed her because of possible epiphysitis.

Thanks for any advice...

Imogen
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Monday, Sep 5, 2005 - 6:15 pm:

Hi Imogen

Your wonderful Irish soil is rich with limestone and awesome for growing bones. Our soil here in Canada isn't nearly as generous. I think I'd zero in on an oldtime horse breeder in your area that you admire and have a good chat about what they feed their young stock.

That aside, I do not grain my warmblood foals/young horses until they are ready to go to work. Their diet consists of pasture during the day and local grass hay at night along with ONE psychological handful of whole oats in the morning to help their vitamins go down. During the winter months, I supplement with alfalfa/grass hay in addition to the local grass hay. I also monitor them carefully to make sure their ribs are easily felt.

These horses are healthy, active and I've never had a youngster develop epiphysitis or any other growth related problem. They are blanketed and sheltered for our damp and rainy west coast winters but never allowed to develop an excess of body fat. My biggest gelding is 18.1 and was never grained until he was 4 years old and starting work.

I hope this is helpful.

Sue
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 4:41 am:

Thanks Sue - we're not in a limestone area unfortunately, and our soil is very heavy on iron but the ph is not too bad for grassland. It's the calcium and protein I'm worried about as, just like her sister and mother, I found out this foal reacts to alfalfa by spitting it out...

I only put a small bit of foal pellets and alfalfa in with the coarse mix this morning but she wouldn't touch it so I'll try one and then other to find out what's causing the problem - I'm pretty sure it's the alfalfa that's being objected to however.

What vitamins do you give your youngstock?

All the best

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 6:24 am:

You seem to be confusing the concentrate recommendation and the warning of putting a maximum on feeding alfalfa hay Imogen. As we don't recommend pellets as a substitute for forage it would be considered like a concentrate and if fed should be subtracted out of the concentrate and not added to it.

These guidelines (taken from Hintz) have always looked to me a lot more like what a show halter horse would receive and would result in a condition around 6 or 7, I prefer a 5 for growing foals. Just as you feed adult horses these are guidelines and as Sue suggests you need to monitor their condition and make adjustments accordingly.
DrO
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 6, 2005 - 7:52 am:

OK then you are right, Dr O - I am a bit confused.

I read the guidelines as 1.7 to 2 lbs concentrate per 100 lbs bodyweight and ideally 15% protein. Additionally I thought you were saying 0.5% of the expected mature weight of the horse for the alfalfa. Even if the alfalfa is part of the concentrates and not in addition, I still think it's a lot... this foal is about a 5 condition at the moment which I agree with you, seems fine to me, plus it's half Irish draught and would therefore tend to not need too much extra food. It's on good pasture although of course it being September the nutritional value of the pasture is DrOpping.

I just want to try and supplement the protein and calcium a bit to make up for the loss of mum's milk. I am not at all worried about the foal's overall condition at all, it's a fine healthy rather large beast. At the moment it's getting about 4 lbs of 10% protein coarse (sweet) mix a day.

If I can't get it to like foal pellets/alfalfa I think I'll just move it up to a 16% coarse mix instead - does that seem ok apart from probably not doing enough on the calcium front? I'll see what it thinks about beet pulp maybe...

All the best

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 7, 2005 - 5:02 pm:

I am sorry for the delay, I had meant to look up the amount and composition of dry matter in the milk at this point in the weanlings diet. I guess that will have to wair for tomorrow.

No the alfalfa number is a warning not to exceed that amount if you using it in the diet. I like the idea of just increasing the protein concentrate of the existing feed. If the calcium seems low you might slowly add 2 lbs of alfalfa hay a day and be ready to adjust down the concentrate at the first signs of pudge. The low proteing, vitamin, and phosphorous content of the beet pulp makes this less favorable too me.
DrO
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Thursday, Sep 8, 2005 - 11:39 am:

Sounds good! Thanks in advance for looking up the milk information if you get time, I'd be interested to know about that.

All the best

Imogen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 14, 2005 - 10:54 am:

Imogen, the figures I find for foals younger than weaning age will consume appx. 20% of their body weight a day in milk which is made up of appx 10.5% solids. These solids have a composition of 18% protein and about 4.5 MCal/kg which makes it slightly richer in energy than corn.

However the actual amount of milk available is limited to around 3 to 4% of the mares bodyweight a day. As a result milk could supply all of a foals needs only up to the second month of life. The amount of milk consumed is inversely related to the amount of other foods being consumed and in a situation where a foal is fed forage freed choice this varies from foal to foal.

I was hoping to sort of get an idea of what was being replaced when a foal is weaned but realize there are many variables to effect this. If we assume a 400 lb foal is drinking all the milk possible from a 1000 lb (450 kg) mare at 5 months and is weaned you would be replacing 4 lbs of 18% protein high energy feed.
DrO
New Member:
Neilas

Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 3:37 pm:

Hello,
I have a 4 month old paint filly that I am about ready to wean, for the past few months we have used a creep feeder and she is getting 1lb flat rolled oats and 2 lbs purina equine jr. 14.5% protein, copper 50.0ppm, she does eat some alfalfa with her mom and bermuda grass hay. Her legs look good, but as everyone I am concerned with DOD, OCD and epithasidis (?). Any addition help would be nice. I live in Southern CA, our area doesn't have enough vets and the 2 we have can never seem to agree. Please help
Thanks Neila
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 6:18 am:

The place to start Neila would be the article associated with this forum, Feeding the Growing Foal, Nutrition for Young Horses. You can select it off the navigation bar at the top of the page. If after reading the article you have any questions not answered on the forum, start a new discussion and we will be glad to help.
DrO
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