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  Discussion on Changing diet to cange personality
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 1999 - 7:56 pm:

We currently feel omaline 200. We are slowly adding plain oats to eventually feed straight oats. When I bought my 7yr paint mare the owner stressed shes an easy keeper she doesnt need much grain. As we were hauling her out, the previous owner yelled again remember not much grain. Well thats been bothering me....Why not? The mares personality changed ,no longer quiet and loving.Thought she might have been mildly tranquilized the couple of times I looked at her but didn't think the lady would do that,but to this day I believe she was. At first would try to bite if you stuck your hand in her stall. Someone said she was just nervous give her time to adjust. She no longer trys to bite but does have somewhat of an attitude.I thought maybe she just didnt like me. Iv'e had her a year now, and keep thinking of what the previous owner said so we've cut her back and I noticed this morning when I fed she started holding a front leg up. Iv'e seen other horses do this and was told they were nervous eating cause they thought another would take there food. I know this is not the case with her. Does anyone else have any idea's? I've never fed staight oats always a sweet feed. We plan on adding vita charge supplement, our hay isn't the greatest(grass hay) and have very limited pasture. Also how much oats would you feed for maintanance? Cant find any info on feeding oats.
Mary

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 1999 - 10:19 pm:

Don't have any information on what to feed to stop rowdy behavior. But I do know more horses were made outlaws by feed, than are born this way.
We have one gelding that, after feeding the same as the mares. Turned into a kicking, biting, stampeeding idiot. We only had ourselves to blame.

I would also like to know more on how much oats would be needed for maintanance.

I am feeding a sweet pelleted feed and super glow to the mares, the gelding does not get super glow any longer and a lower protein pellet than the mares.

I hope someone can help with this.

Posted on Thursday, Oct 28, 1999 - 7:15 am:

Most of the answers to your questions on how much are dealt with in, Care: Nutrition: Feeding the Mature Horse. Comparating feedstuffs can be done using the tag label on your bag and the article: Nutrient COntent of Feedstuffs.

As to changing from Omolene 200 to oats I would switch lb for lb but watch the weight density (the oats are lighter) and protein (you will be DrOpping about 2% points). If the quality of the grass hay is good and you are feeding adult nonpregnant horses the protein should be OK.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 28, 1999 - 2:41 pm:

Do you not think that perhaps we all have the tendency to blame the horse's feed for everything that goes wrong? Be he/she too slow, too excitable, too fit, too thin, etc. etc. I agree diet is vital, but a lot of these problems can be due to breeding, age, conformation, temperament, condition, training, general health, and....last but certainly not least.....the ability and temperament of the owner/rider.

I also wonder why many people feed only oats and wish to change to only oats. Oats are fine, but can't compare with the marvellously balanced feeds available which take care of the correct calcium/potassium/protein/you name it levels. And you can find a balanced feed suitable for a child's pony, a hard-working hunter, a delicate riding hack, a hot horse, a lazy horse.

The balanced coarse ration I feed [don't like cubes] is just so beautiful, and smells so gorgeous, that one is tempted to add milk and eat it for breakfast. It is non-heating, no corn, no oats, suitable for ponies and riding hacks, and I feed my retired horse 1,5kg a day over 3 meals, and my pony 100g a day over 2 meals. Okay, I'm feeding the horse I rescued in August more, now 3 kg. daily over 3 meals, but he is 16.2h and still picking up weight.

Because the mix is light, and non-heating, one can give a little more than of other mixes. With the previous complete mix I used, I could only feed my retired boy 900g a day over 3 meals, or he got a bit silly.

Now that's not much grain, and I have never fed much more as I feed a lot of hay - but I have also never seen a temperament change due to feed. I've seen a horse get too hot, because of too much energy to burn off - or dull and dreary because of not enough food for too much work - but I haven't seen the basic temperament change.

Sorry - I guess I'm being a little pedantic - but I am convinced of the value of balanced complete feeds!

Alexa

Posted on Thursday, Oct 28, 1999 - 2:47 pm:

Diet can turn some sweet children into hyperactive and irritable monsters....maybe it can do the same in some horses!!!
Carol.

Posted on Thursday, Oct 28, 1999 - 11:50 pm:

DrO
I read the articles on feed and nutrition after I had posted the message. Should have been the other way around. I checked the nutrient contents and found them to be fine. My horses look great, and are in very good shape.

I just wanted to know what I could feed the gelding without getting the monster that we had before. And yes Alexa he was just as docile as the mares until he was fed the same feed the mares eat, then we met the monster.

Right now I am feeding the gelding the pelleted sweet. I would like to give him some more grain but am afraid it will hype him up. I guess will just have to go by trial and error.

Thanks.

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 1999 - 12:47 am:

I must say that I agree that feeds can affect personality. I have seen more than one sweet little horse turned into a nervous monster by grain.

Here is a thought. Why must we feed grains anyway? Horses do not eat grains in the wild. Horses probably don't even eat alfalfa as a general rule in the wild either.

I have a 16.2 hand 15 year old gelding who is spunky as if he were 6. When I got him 6 years ago, he was skin and bone. He got lots of grain and hay and slowly gained weight. The weight gain was more rapid since I started Strongid C. Now he is an easy keeper. He developed a colic problem (frequent mild episodes) a while back, and all grains were taken out of his diet (in the process of eliminating all possible predisposing factors). He now gets plain grass hay (no alfalfa) and a mediocre pasture to graze all day. I have him on Strongid C, a vitamin supplement and salt/mineral blocks. That is all he gets. He has a gorgeous shiney coat, a gleam in his eye, and plenty of energy for our riding activities. He is just as mischeavous as the day I bought him 6 years ago. Further, he has a bit of a weight problem this year....a bit too heavy on his only grass diet. Winter is coming, so he can use the insulation, therefore I am not worried about it.

I guess what I am saying is that if you think feed concentrates/grains are causing a problem for your horse in some way, you can always eliminate them. Just ask your vet (or even Dr. O) to suggest a good supplement to compliment the hay you are feeding in order to insure proper vitamin and mineral balance. Feed the best quality hay you can find and you probably won't have a weight maintenance problem either.

Also, I noticed that the original poster said she had poor quality hay and noted in parenthesis that it was grass, as if this made it poor quality hay. Grass hay is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good, natural thing for horses to eat. Some grass hays are so nice, that they can rival a mediocre alfalfa for protein content. I have boarded at 3 barns that fed only grass hay (no alfalfa) and never saw a starving horse under their care. I currently feed my own horses and grass hay is the mainstay of their diets. Like I said before, the one horse gets only grass and no grain. He has been on only grass for at least 6 years. My other horse is a TB and a hard keeper by nature. He does get a bit of alfalfa because he is too busy to eat most days (a natural busy body) and therefore I need to get as much protein into him as possible in the limited feeding time available. I free-feed him grass at night.

Karen

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 1999 - 9:16 pm:

Here in Arizona, grass hay is in such demand that it brings a much higher price than good-quality alfalfa. I'm talking about a good-quality Colorado orchard grass, timothy mix.

Pam N.

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 1999 - 9:22 pm:

Sorry, forgot to add this. Several years a go I decided to be easy on myself and feed alfalfa cubes for one meal. I went to Phoenix to a grower and bought, in bulk, his beautiful no additive alfalfa cubes. My normally docile mare turned into a raving lunatic--so nervous she could hardly stand herself. My friend who broke and trained this mare asked me if I had changed her feed. After I survived her tongue-lashing and changed the mare back to grass/alfalfa, I learned that those cubes ran about 22% protein! After a few weeks off the cubes my mare returned to her normal docile self.

Pam N.

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 1999 - 9:46 pm:

Karen,I have nothing against grass hay, but it is so hard to find Good grass hay around here. We help our neighbors bale and in exchange we get our barn full, but the hay is not the best. Alot of it is stemy, and yellow almost like straw. Sometimes moldy where he trys to hurry back to the barn with it while its sprinkling rain. He gets very affended if you say anything saying I've fed this for years and my horses are fine are yours too good? Last year we threw alot away for mold and spent almost $3 a bale for some it looked great, nice and green! One of our horses coliced and we started checking it out and there were traces of lite mold here and there in the hay, the neighbors said if you'd of come back and got some more off me you wouldn't have had that problem. I dont know why people around here can't bale hay. Alot of people have cows and I quess they can handle it. We just bought some grass hay tonite and it looks decent, but we haven't opened any yet.
Mary

Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 1999 - 8:04 am:

The key to proper feeding is watching the horses weight, that determines how much concentrate is needed. We really do not think that some feeds are more likely to create bad behavior than others. We do know that some feeds are a lot more dense so at equal volumes provide more nutrients. These feeds are the ones that most horsemen consider hotter, like corn. So wqhen changing feeds or comparing feeds you must compare weight and not volume.

In horses feed large amounts of concentrate there is some work to suggest substituting fat for carbohydrate may hav a calming effect. However you must take many factors into consideration before doing this. See the article on Fats and Oils.
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 1999 - 1:37 pm:

Mary,

So sorry you are having a hard time finding good quality grass hay. I know what you mean about finding hay that has been put up correctly. My supplier is known for putting up the best quality brome grass hay in the area. He charges top dollar, but it is top of the line. Last year I got 120 bales from him and did not find one single weed or moldy flake. This year I ordered 170 bales from him off the same field. I sent back 164 after finding 3 out of the first 6 bales to be damp, "off odor" and starting to mold. He kindly took them back and exchanged them for a different cut off a different field. Most of the suppliers in our area are very good about standing behind thier hay. They can't afford to lose their customers. I am sure he didn't think there was much wrong with the hay, but he didn't argue about it. He just tells me "I know you horse people are picky about your hay around here". I am sure he had no problem reselling it to the cattle folks and they were probably happy with it.

One note of interest. Until about 2 years ago, alfalfa hay around here cost twice as much as grass. Now, some of the better quality grass is costing more than the alfalfa. It seems the local dairy farmers have discovered that they really like the grass hay for their younger cows for some reason, so it is now in greater demand.

Still, I can't complain. The prices around here are reasonable compared to other parts of the country. Small squares (about 50-60#) of grass range from .75 to 3.00 and alfalfa ranges from 1.25 to 3.25. Of course, you (hopefully) get what you pay for.

Karen

Good luck with your new hay.

Karen

Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 1999 - 1:38 pm:

Mary,

So sorry you are having a hard time finding good quality grass hay. I know what you mean about finding hay that has been put up correctly. My supplier is known for putting up the best quality brome grass hay in the area. He charges top dollar, but it is top of the line. Last year I got 120 bales from him and did not find one single weed or moldy flake. This year I ordered 170 bales from him off the same field. I sent back 164 after finding 3 out of the first 6 bales to be damp, "off odor" and starting to mold. He kindly took them back and exchanged them for a different cut off a different field. Most of the suppliers in our area are very good about standing behind thier hay. They can't afford to lose their customers. I am sure he didn't think there was much wrong with the hay, but he didn't argue about it. He just tells me "I know you horse people are picky about your hay around here". I am sure he had no problem reselling it to the cattle folks and they were probably happy with it.

One note of interest. Until about 2 years ago, alfalfa hay around here cost twice as much as grass. Now, some of the better quality grass is costing more than the alfalfa. It seems the local dairy farmers have discovered that they really like the grass hay for their younger cows for some reason, so it is now in greater demand.

Still, I can't complain. The prices around here are reasonable compared to other parts of the country. Small squares (about 50-60#) of grass range from .75 to 3.00 and alfalfa ranges from 1.25 to 3.25. Of course, you (hopefully) get what you pay for.

Good luck with your new hay.

Karen

Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 1999 - 1:41 pm:

Oops. Sorry I posted that twice.

Karen

Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 1999 - 9:43 am:

I have a 4 yr old Peruvian Paso mare. The hay quality where I board has been rather poor. I was giving her Strategy by Purina with good results. Changed her to Farmers 14, which has a bit of corn and is also sweetened. She started being nervous, and sweating just standing around. When let out to run she dripped sweat. Changed her back to Strategy. No sweating. Calm happy horse. The protein level in Strategy is 15%, in the Farmers 14%. Go figure?! I have to order in the Strategy but it seems to be worth it.

Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 1999 - 10:29 am:

Hay prices sure do vary. In Arizona we pay up to $10/bale for good grass hay from a feed store, plus tax. I usually buy mine direct and pay in the area of $6/bale for 55-60# bales. #110 bale of alfalfa is running around $150/ton delivered in small quantities. California is higher. A friend in Georgia complains about the availability of good hay, any kind.

Pam N.

Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 1999 - 11:51 am:

Aileen,
When you swtched brands did you feed the same amounts based on volume or weight?
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 1999 - 8:48 pm:

I fed her only 2 lbs. Strategy by volumne. When I switched to Farmers 14, I had run out of Strategy and they coulnd't get any for a week, so I went directly to the Farmers 14 but cut it to only 1/2 lb. by volumne. Never got past 1 lb due to the sweating and nerves. Now I feed her 1 lb Strategy and 1/2 lb. Farmers 14, both by volumne and she seems to be fine. I also give her Source micro nuggets. She weights about 900 lbs. by tape. Does this sound O.K.?

Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 1999 - 8:03 am:

Hello Aileen,
Now I am confused: lbs would be a weight and scoops, quarts, and gallons would be a volume. It sounds a little like you were feeding a certain amount of Strategy then fed 1/4 as much Farmers 14 by volume. Or did youput it on a weight scale first?
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 1999 - 4:04 pm:

Hello Dr O,
Have you heard of corn in feed making a geldings kidneys sore? My horse seemed to be a little ouchy in the kidneys a while back. I asked my Dad about it and he said that I should check to see if there was corn in his feed. It just so happened that I had been feeding him a pound of sweet feed every morn and evening to mask his prednisone (prednisolone is now recommended instead of prednisone). I took him off the sweet feed and almost immediately he was better. My Dad said we had a horse that had the same problem (many years ago). The vet was called out and said that corn can sometimes have this effect on the kidneys of a gelding. Not to second guess Dad, but has anyone ever heard of this before? I feed Strategy which does not contain corn - at least it is not named on the ingredients. THANKS, JOY

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 11:06 am:

Instead of posting your question at the bottom of someone elses discussion you should create your own. You will get more responses and it helps others find related information better. This is the appropriate forum for your topic, so just back up to the Forum Page where all the discussions are listed. The easiest way to do this is using the navigation bar at the top of this page and selecting: Forum. Once on the Forum page select: New Discussions. Choose a title that is descriptive.
Administration

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 10:38 pm:

Hi Dr. O,
I use a 1 lb coffee can to measure. I did feed 1/4 as much (1/2 can) Farmers 14 because I had to make a quick transition. I was going to build it up over a couple of weeks but at about 1 can she started getting the sweats and nervousness. Now I am feeding 1 can of Strategy and 1/2 can of Farmers 14 with no apparent problems. She used to get 2 cans of Strategy, but was gaining a little weight.
Aileen

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 7:31 am:

Hello Aileen,
Got it, I wanted to make the point that equal volumes do not equate to equal amounts of feed but the 1/4 reduction in feed makes it unlikely that an actual increase in amount of feed occured. I still have problems explaining the sweating being related to the feed: did it so happen at this time the weather was warmer or that there was a change in the environment that caused the horse to run around?
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 10:18 pm:

The weather was cooler than it has been all summer and she ran around when I worked her in the round pen. I think this seems strange, also, but it was so noticable I don't know what else to attribute it to. Since I put her back on mostly Strategy, she has had no other episodes of sweating or excessive nervousness.Could changing her diet when she was coming into "season" cause some reaction. This mare is not real "obvious" when in season. Usually she just gets a little grumpy. I can't say if she was or wasn't at that time...just a thought?
Aileen

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 1:09 pm:

No but the cooler weather will cause some horses to run vigorously all day for a few days... I wonder.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2000 - 8:38 pm:

Hello all, these posts are all pretty old, but I must add to them. I had a 10 year old Morgan mare who absolutely could not handle even a small (1/2 lb) of sweet feed without a noticeable change in
personality. Oats, or oats and barley were fine (same amount by volume - with a 60/40 ratio of oats to barley). Corn also had a bad effect (25%). She would be very difficult to ride - unfocused (where she is normally easy to focus). I could tell from 30 ft. away that she was in season by the look in her eye. VERY unpleasant. I owned her
for 1 1/2 years before finding out that the sweet feed was the problem. It was by a recommendation from the folks at Advanced Biological Concepts that I started weaning her off of the sweet feed
onto straight oats (they had actually suggested the oats/barley/corn mix -and fortunately I didn't do that - she would have remained 'high' on the corn and I never would have known about the difference). Half way through the changeover the mare started falling asleep in the cross ties while grooming. UNHEARD OF. She became much more
pleasurable - all around. It appears to have been the molasses. She also couldn't have pelleted feeds with molasses in them without a problem. Certainly not all horses are sensitive like this - but I now know some are! Nothing else changed in this mare's environment at the time. My trainer has since switched some of her hotter TB's off of the sweet feed and onto oats with similar results. While we don't want to keep switching our horses feed on a whim, and it certainly CAN sometimes be a training issue, we must realize that some of these 'beasts', like humans, are more sensitive to certain types of feeds than others. I can't tell you how elated I was to stumble across this for my mare's sake. She was MISERABLE on the sweet feed. And I was miserable too - but it was MY FAULT. Poor girl.
This is the first time I've posted- I hit the 'post message' button - but nothing happened - I apologize if this attempt ends up posting me twice!!

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2000 - 5:21 pm:

Hello to all:

Just thought I would add a note to this feeding forum, I have found that sweet feed does make a difference in our SWB, after cutting his feed and changing to Buckeye Reduced Energy (no corn) he really settled down and stopped being so nervous and spooky, we also added l/4 scoop of vit B-l.

Posted on Sunday, Sep 10, 2000 - 5:15 am:

Hello Dianne,
The question is whether it is the reduced energy or different feedstuffs: current research suggests if you had just cut the sweet feed to the same energy level as the low energy feed you would have had the same results.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2000 - 6:08 pm:

Hello Dr O.

The only difference in our feeds was corn, we have always fed all our horses Buckeye Pleasure Sweet Feed, we now feed two of our horses Buckeye Reduced Energy Sweet Feed, but I will certainily agree with your comment, we did have to reduce the amounts fed (of the reduced energy) to see a change in behavior.

Dianne
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