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  Discussion on Vet at a loss - Help
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Member:
Avandia

Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 11:26 pm:

This morning we had the final visit from the vet. He scoped our Part Draught and only found slightly paralysed vocal chords.Approximately three months ago our 15yr old part-bred draught horse started to loose condition. Usually Truman is a really good doer. His manure seemed small. This had not been obvious previously. Blood, urine and manure tests were taken. Nothing significant showed. Worming has been regular. Teeth checked regularly. Today he was scoped and stomach showed nothing sinister. We have been offering a smorgasbord of food over this period with very little interest taken. He will eat for a very short period of time. Then he yawns and moves jaw appearing to be uncomfortable and just leaves his feed. He is now like a coat rack and looking quite miserable. Does anyone have any ideas before we take final action.
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 2:13 am:

Dear Marcia,

These may be silly questions since your vet has been out but here goes. Have his teeth been checked or recently floated? Has his environment changed in any way?

We had a horse with similar symptoms. He had a severe abscess in his tooth that went undetected for a few months. He was checked by several vets. Until one day my acupuncturist was out working on another horse and I asked him if he could take a look.

To my surprise he asked the same question I just asked you. I replied well of course his teeth have been checked and recently floated. He palpitated from head to toe and said his jaw was sore right there. And there it was.

As soon as the tooth was removed he was back to normal. The vets were stumped as to how he did this with out a xray. We will never know but I am just lucky to have a great acupuncturist who is a great horseman. I think he is a little psychic.

Good luck,

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 6:10 am:

Certainly having a thorough exam of the mouth is in order particularly since your horse appears to you to be having trouble chewing. For this and other suggestions on causes of weight loss in a horse see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. If you feel your veterinarian has reached the end of his rope you should consider a referral to a large equine facility or veterinary school.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 10:35 am:

In addition to the above great advice, have you tried giving him mash so he doesn't have to chew? If so, did he eat that?
Member:
Thomboy

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 12:06 pm:

This is going to sound silly, but have you wormed him with a combination wormer for tapeworms? I ask this because many horses in our local area here were having similar symptoms, and the vets were just as confused. I, being the tapeworm-phobic that I am, distributed tubes of ComboCare and Equimax and within a few days, all the horses were back to normal. Just a thought!
Member:
Vrich

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 9:40 pm:

Any chance at all that he has ulcers? We have a TB who essentially stopped eating and lost a bunch of weight. We treated her with 2 ulcer meds for less than 2 weeks and she's good as new. All her weight is back and then some. I think ulcers are difficult to diagnose. We tried the meds without a definitive diagnosis and the meds did the trick. Hoping for the best for him! Val
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 11:15 pm:

Thank you all for your advice. I took Truman to a Vet from Werribee our largest in Australia. He was very thorough. He suggested firstly 50ml of Panacur wormer for 3 days for any persistent infestation in wall of smaller bowel. Allow a few days. Depending on that result. Then trying ulcer meds. Also a drench to collect any sand. Pleased to say that Truman is already a little perkier. He ate a decent meal this morning. We are not out of the woods but no final action will be necessary at the moment.
Thanks Again
Marcia
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2005 - 11:51 pm:

I will ask another question; Has your horses' temperature been taken?

I agree with Dr.O on a THOROUGH mouth inspection to look for any teeth or recent lack of to account for an awful sore throat after the fact.

He might not have trouble chewing but swallowing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 9:50 am:

I have recently read reports of horse worms being resistant to even the high dose Panacur regimen. If parasites are suspected I strongly recommend a moxidectin/praziquantel combination. For more on this see our article on dewormers, Care for Horses » Deworming & Parasite Overview of Deworming.
DrO
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Friday, Nov 4, 2005 - 12:41 pm:

The latest is that Truman is eating much better, also looking a little brighter. However, on the down side the vet has discovered some paralysis of the vocal chords. One vet seems to think this could be relative to condition/circumstance etc the other does not and cannot see the point in prolonging his discomfort as he considers long term he will always be short of breath etc! I am so grateful to you DrO for your recommendations and clarifications.

Before reading this I had already drenched with the 1st 50ml of Panacur. Will it be ok to change to the Moxidectin/praziquantel. The only wormer I can locate in Australia is Quest Gel, which has mostly been replaced with Quest Tape.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 5, 2005 - 11:43 am:

Finish out the Panacur wait a week and then give the second dewormer. Quest Tape sounds about right be sure the dosage in a single tube is adequate.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Nov 7, 2005 - 7:21 pm:

Marcia
Been following your posts ... and,wondering, did the new vet know that Truman had already been scoped(just trying to save you from unnessesary treatments for ulcers!). What is the paralysis of the vocal chords from? Hope things are turning around for you and Truman!
Nancy
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Monday, Nov 7, 2005 - 8:51 pm:

Hi Nancy

Yes, the new vet knew Truman had been scoped. An area I am concerned about at present is the thread and info that relate to Abscess, are vets able to diagnose. There is no swelling, however may an infection have caused the paralysis of the vocal chords. My original vet seems to think there is no point in prolonging our hope, as this will inevitably deem the horse unusable. We however do not mind if he lives with the herd retired as long as he is not in pain. He is eating spasmodically. He was drenched with 150ml of Panacur over 3 days. I would say he is holding up at the moment.
Member:
Annes

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 8, 2005 - 10:08 am:

This may really be off base but my TB had EPM and his only symptom was that he lost the use of his tongue and could not swallow. Because he couldn't eat or drink, he became dehydrated and was showing signs of colic before we realized something was wrong. After treating for EPM his paralysis went away and he recovered 100%. (I did not read that your vet considered EPM.) I know EPM usually affects horses in other ways but in my horse's case the swallowing was the only clue. I sincerely hope Truman can be better soon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 9, 2005 - 8:34 am:

Laryngeal hemiplegia, which could be described as partial paralysis of the vocal cords and is a common even in horses and generally not related to clinical signs as described here. Is this what your vet saw Marcia? Did the referral vet radiograph the skull?
DrO
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2005 - 12:29 pm:

Hi DrO
I replied previously however it seems to have been lost. The vet did not radiograph the skull. Truman seems to have a stronger whinnie and is still holding up. He appears to graze more and is eating sometimes 1/2 a bale of hay a day. He will only pick at hard feed. He had the last dose of panacur 4 days ago. I will give him the moxidectin in the next few days. I have given him a supplement which he licks with out feed called Rawleighs stock feed supplement. This is in addition to his cobolt mineral lick. He seems a little more interested and is being quite dominant with his paddock mares. I will wait for a few days and then think about the ulcer meds.
Thanks Everyone
Marcia
Member:
Unicorn

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 4:45 am:

Marcia

Give me a yell about 2 days after you do the Equest Gel.

I am still collecting people reports on horses recovering after using Equest.

In Australia we have many horses with varying symptoms that relate to digestion and muscle function that respond well to Equest.

I am hassling Rafael at Fort Dodge to get further studies done.

Regards
Darren
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Thursday, Nov 17, 2005 - 9:16 pm:

Hello Again,
Truman is eating feeds, hay and grazing. His condition had not improved. In himself he seems perkier. He has been given the 150ml of Panacur. Five days later the Quest Plus Tape. His neigh appears to be louder. However last night he breathing through his nostrils seemed more laboured and noisy. Dr O, would Laryngeal hemiplegia, cause such extreme weight loss. Apart from his condition and breathing he is once again dominant over his paddock mares and seems much brighter.
Member:
Unicorn

Posted on Thursday, Nov 17, 2005 - 10:56 pm:

I usually take the perkiness as a good sign, on the hundreds of horses we have used Equest on we know that with 24-48 hours they are much more alert and if you watch them move they no longer thud around with slack muscles but their muscles start firing correctly allowing them to lift their feet.

Most people say it is like a power switch has been turned on, the horse is within a day or two much more alive. They still look like crap but the thing dragging them down is gone. Most tests we have done indicate you have to do a second Equest 14 days after the first Equest. The reason for this can only be proven in a lab (which I hope is going on ATM). My guess is that the dormant parasites re-establish within 7-10 days. I have watched one mare here gain 22lbs a day for 7 days after worming then loose 22lbs a day for the next 7 days. Most of this is water as the body starts working then shuts down again.

She was the reason we figured out a 14 day interval was required.

In all the horses treated since 2 doses close together have proven very effective. Some horses recover with just one dose but these horses are usually in better health.


Just for the record what area are you in?

Regards
Darren
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 7:46 am:

No hemiplegia would not cause such clinical signs Marcia.
DrO
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 22, 2005 - 3:31 pm:

Please can anyone think of anything we have missed. Sorry to repeat myself but I have a new information. Incredible gut noises like a major eruption on the off side behind the rib cage. The bubbling can be felt at 1 1/2 to 2min intervals.
Three months ago when Truman DrOpped condition severely the Vet administered Vitamin shots. Checked Teeth, manure, urine and blood test were taken nothing significant showed.

Truman has been scoped which showed minor paralysis of his vocal chords. A needle was put into his gut, which the fluid showed no sign for concern.

He has been drenched with 150ml of Panacur over 3 days. Five days later he was drenched with Quest Plus Tape and will be given this again in 14days.

Truman is eating a small amount of hard feed, some hay and grazing daily. His laboured breathing seems spasmodic.

There are no signs of colic. His manure is very small for his size. He appears dopey for some of the day but also bosses the paddock mares occasionally like his old self.

I am considering Rawleighs Stock Feed supplement, also a sand colic treatment mentioned by John O'Leary on Horse Problems Australia. What would be the symptoms of stomach ulcers and should I administer ulcer meds now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 23, 2005 - 9:49 am:

Marcia, the problem is not what we have missed on these boards but what has not been found on the examination of the horse. The problem for us is that your clinical signs are NOT unique. Loss of condition is a very common finding in hundreds if not thousands of diseases. To see a list of the most common causes see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. Perhaps such a list will help.

The labored breathing certainly needs to be pursued to establish the cause, heaves, pneumonia and pleuropneumonia would certainly be at the top of the list but there are others, for more see, Equine Diseases » Respiratory System. We also have articles on Sand Colic and Gastric Ulcers in the Colic And GI sections which will help you answer your questions on these diseases. Ulcers and Sand don't typically cause labored breathing however.
DrO
Member:
Avandia

Posted on Friday, Nov 25, 2005 - 11:25 pm:

VALE TRUMAN
Truman was booked in for another visit from a Werribee vet. He decided he would rather die at home and passed peacefully away during the night.
Marcia
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Friday, Nov 25, 2005 - 11:43 pm:

Marcia,
I am so sorry for your loss. Know you did everything possible for your beloved horse, and he finally is at peace with others at the Rainbow Bridge. You weep not alone. Take care of you, and his spirit lives with you always.
Shirl
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 1:30 am:

Marcia, please know that many of us have been where you are. I know that it is so discouraging not to know the reasons for our horses' illnesses and deaths. We do the best we can do knowing that they won't be with us forever. Thank you for letting us know of Truman's death. My thoughts and heart are with you this evening.
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 7:20 am:

Marcia, so sorry about Truman. You did the best you could for him. We have lost 4 horses this year. A mare to a ruptured bowel after she foaled, a stallion died of a heart attack after breeding a mare, a colt fractured his skull and a 2 year old died of an abscess that hid itself for almost 2 months. My mini shnauzer who was my constant companion for 7 years and my favorite cat were run over this summer. Each one just about took my sanity. We have raised horses for over 40 years and never lost one to anything but old age, and never lost a pet to anything but old age. Here's hoping to a peaceful and uneventful rest of 2005 and a back to normal 2006. EO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 8:45 am:

My deepest condolences Marcia. Don't cancel that appointment and instead I strongly recommend you get a necropsy done. You will feel much better knowing the reason for all this and your information might help others.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 9:00 am:

I'm so sorry for your loss, Marcia. And I'm thinking what a blessing for him to have gone peacefully, at home. Still, I know you have a hurting heart, and just know that there are many of us that are thinking of you and sending you comforting thoughts, and are "with you" during this time.
I was just re-reading the posts here, and recognize so many of the names. People who have helped each other during times like this. People who understand what you have been going thru, as well as where you are now! You will be in my thoughts and prayers. Like DrO suggests, A necropsy might answer many questions for you, and, perhaps give you the knowledge to help someone else along the way.
Nancy
Member:
Frances

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 10:06 am:

So very sorry, Marcia.

Lynn
Member:
Huntjump

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 10:10 am:

Marcia- I am so sorry for your loss and have been following your posts. My thoughts will be with you. Take care.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 10:30 am:

Marcia - Thoughts and good wishes coming your way from California...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 11:05 am:

I'm so sorry, Marcia. At least you have the assurance you did everything you could do to help him. I know he will be missed and will always remain in your heart.

Little King - what an awful year you've had. My heart goes out to you.
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 12:03 pm:

Marcia,
Demetrius and I send our thoughts and prayers as well. May Truman be in Peace.
If you ever need to chat outside of the thread email me at LtSassy1@aol.com. I will answer any time of the day or night.
God Bless,
Corinne
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 11:40 pm:

Dear Marcia,

I am so very sorry for your loss. I know you did everything possible to help Truman. When our beloved animals go to heaven, I believe they really go to live in our hearts, minds, visions and dreams. May you always see Truman in any medium that works for you.

My sincerest condolences,

WTG
Member:
Joann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 12:53 pm:

Marcia, I too have a wonderful friend that left us yesterday and understand all too well the sadness you feel. I am reminded that he is no longer in pain and I hope Truman left the same way. So sorry. joann
Member:
Canter

Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 8:05 am:

Marcia,
Deepest condolences. Find peace in knowing you did everything you could to help your dear friend.

Fran
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 5:10 pm:

Dear Marcia,

My daughter and I send our condolences to you on the loss of your beloved Truman. We sincerely hope that the good memories of Truman will help ease the feelings of grief and loss as time goes by.

Peace,
Debra
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