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  Discussion on Tip: don't put lead chain over the nose!!! Learn from my accident:
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Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 1:25 pm:

I have always seen other horse people place lead chains over the nose of frisky animals to I guess gain control, but while I did it sometimes, I never did it a lot. Well, i'll never do it again. My gelding recently had an abscess and had to have stall rest, but I gave him at least 3 hours of grass per day so his gut stayed normal. He was used to about 12-14 hours a day. One day he looked like he'd bust if I didn't let him out. He looked so feisty I placed the lead chain over his nose. He danced and pranced all the way to the paddock. Once we got in the gate, I turned him so I wouldn't be in range of his hooves when he took off. He turned, thought for a minute, and as I was fussing with the lead chain clip where it attached to the halter, he wheeled, lunged, and took off with the lead chain attached! Well you can imagine my worry that he'd step on the lead, which he did. He sort of jerked to a stop after that. Then he started grazing and looked fine.As I approached him though I could see blood. I was horrified to see the sharp point of the clip (the part you move to press in the inner spring) embedded in his face, along with half of what I call the dog-leash clip. I'm not sure it was the right thing to do but I grabbed it and wiggled it out. The horse kept on grazing! It was horrible. Blood was everywhere. I ran for the hyDrOgen peroxide and antibiotic gel. When I got back the nose was swollen up so bad I didn't recognize his profile. This was Sunday- it is considerably better now. He is now afraid of lead chains (he may be dumb but he's not stupid). So am I. No more lead chains over the nose! Ever! I feel lucky that this was all that happened. It now seems beyond dumb to ever place an animal at risk by doing this very common thing. Lets face it- if he wants to get away, he will- he weighs 1000 lbs. A lead chain on his nose can only help so much if he really wants to bolt. -B Gordon
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 1:47 pm:

Beth, I agree with you 100 percent. I have friends who insist on using the nose chain, but the issue is totally a training issue . . . and if the horse is trained to give his nose to you on the slightest touch of pressure on the lead line attached to the halter, then a chain is not needed. Folks who are afraid their horses will pull away have a training issue, not a "strength" issue. Their horses are not focused on their handlers, and they haven't been taught consistently to "agree" with whatever the handlers say. Yes, it takes time to train the horse to give on a light touch, but it is, OH, so worth it . . . because it is the foundation to teach the horse to not lean on the bit or leg or anytime you ask for movement with pressure.
It's tough to see our horses wounded . . . especially if we had the small whisper of conscience before we took the action that may have contributed to the wound. On the other had, accidents can happen even when horses aren't contrained by nose chains . . . so don't beat yourself up. While your horse is rehabbing from the abscess, spend 15-30 minutes with him in his stall each day, just practicing asking him to give to each side as you take the slack out of the lead and hold your hand with the lead up on his back (give at least 2 seconds of pause after each compliance . . . it helps the horse process the cause/effect of the exercise) . . . Soon he will give to to you on just the movement of your hand sliding down the lead line. You are looking for 100 percent agreement from your horse . . . and it will take hundreds of times . . . but sure beats the angst and harm that can come from struggling with chains and/or pulling.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 1:53 pm:

P.S. . . . Forgot to say (and you may all ready know this) that you are NOT to release the pressure on the lead until the horse puts slack in the lead (or rein) and makes the move to touch his nose to his girth, behind his elbow . . . or thereabouts . . . then you must release IMMEDIATELY and praise briefly . . . and then repeat. I throw the lead line over the horse's back and pick it up with one hand over the withers before sliding my other hand down halfway and drawing it back to the middle of his back where I anchor it on his spine until he gives. If your horse is really tall, a sturdy mounting block will help a lot.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 3:05 pm:

Beth, I am very sorry for your mishap... but ''stuff'' happens with horses.. no matter how hard we try NOT to let ''stuff'' happen , it does... your experience is one that can happen with a halter or even a bridle if a horse should get away... By putting a chain over some of horses has saved ME from getting hurt many a time.. .. Its a reminder to some of my horses that YES I do have control of you.... and if one should get away... and they have... the yank on stepping on the line was enough to halt a crazy run away horse that might have done more damage to a torn ligament or tendon...

Again I am sorry for your accident and thank you for the heads up on ''stuff'' happens...

Please don't slam me for having another opinion..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Green007

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 3:30 pm:

I have to agree with Ann on this one. Although you do have to be careful when using chains, there is a time and place where they could save you or your horse from even more serious injury.

I had a horse panic once when a horsefly bit him, reared up and got his leg caught over a very lead rope that was correctly tied at a proper length and in a safety release knot. Because the entire weight of the horse was hanging on the lead rope, the knot tightened to the point that the safety release knot became useless at a time when I really needed it most. Even though the knot didn't work out for that horse in this one freak accident, I still use and condone safety release knots because they tend to work more often than they don't.

Just another point of view from a pro-chain girl, though only if truly needed!
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 4:45 pm:

Now that you guys are discussing it, I had an experience recently that really bothered me. My horse was being shod while I held him and he spooked and scooted back. As he backed, he got his foot caught on the hose, which was attached to the nozzle not far away. Of course, he panicked and continued to shoot back which continued to make it worse. I tried to walk toward him to release the tension on the lead, but he was not thinking straight, and eventually reared up and knocked me over. That "strategy" worked for him because he freed himself from the hose but of course he was then loose. He was fine to catch, but I was left wondering what I could/should have done. I have been around horses for so long that I felt like I should have been able to handle that with body language but I had no control over that situation. Wondered what your thoughts were. BTW, I did have the chain over his nose
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 5:10 pm:

If we can picture an accident happening with a horse, it can happen . . . maybe not with our horse, but with some horse sometime. I don't know how far away the hose was from where your horse was standing, but anytime we work on a horse (grooming, saddling, shoeing, vetting, trimming, bathing, training, riding, etc.) it is good practice to make sure the surrounding area has no booby traps . . . I think that when these freak accidents happen, it is just a warning to us to avoid similar situations in the future. I don't know if you ever looked at the hose or anything else in the vicinity of the aisle or area where your horse was being shod and thought to yourself, "Hmmm . . . a horse could get caught on that," but I have found myself thinking similar thoughts and then weighing the probability of such a thing happening . . . and sometimes I proceed with what I'm doing, and am probably just fortunate that at that particular time my horse DIDN'T spook or cause injury to himself. So many things we do with horses involve risk. The best thing we can do is make the areas and the techniques we use as safe for ourselves and our horses as possible . . . accidents will still happen, but hopefully, the chance of accidents will be greatly reduced.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 8:11 pm:

Beth what you see when a horse is chained thru the halter and over the nose band is a very necessary thing on the track. Its useful when done correctly and consistently. And actually has a calming effect on the horse, if done correctly.

The first 3 years i owned my TB i had to learn to use it. I also vowed to train her never to need it again. It took time. I still have this horse. And when the chain goes on (very rarely), she knows i mean business. But, she was trained that way. Your guy really isn't a rank horse.

Its a painful lesson learned, don't beat yourself up over it. Just think if it had been over the gums (which i have seen done too).

If you need to ever try it again make sure the snap/clip is attached on the halter o ring nearest his right ear, then thru the o ring near his noseband. over his nose and out thru the other O ring on your on side. And the halter needs to fit perfectly on your horse. Personally, 3 people have seen her in action (my horse) and said i should get the parelli halter. I haven't wanted to try it for the simple reason in those situations she isn't trained for poll release. (something i need to work on) i fear she would go more ballistic if that was ever used. same theory i believe, pressure on the poll lets out those endorphins to relax.

I do agree with hollywood that its a training issue too. But, there are those horses that just won't settle in a new situation, no matter how much training is done. For every new situation i have with my TB, sometimes i don't have the 3 hours to get her to comply nicely like a good girl. What if it was an emergency situation? like getting her out of a burning building? I need control. I need it fast.

Ann, no one should ever be slammed for having an opposing view. Otherwise whats the point of these forums...
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 2:42 am:

Dear Joj,

I completely agree with you about this forum. No one should be harshed for having an opposing view. Or even a different way of saying something. After all we are all individuals.

There are so many schools of thought in the world of horses. Many different disciplines and techniques.

I believe in order to handle a chain on a horse one must have experience. I have heard of one inexperienced boarder who had tied their horse up with the chain under the jaw. Either the horse spooked or pulled back but he did break his jaw. It was a true nightmare. Another episode of they let anyone with money(not experience) acquire a horse. 90% of the time the poor horse is the one suffering because of ignorant people.

Beth,

Good luck with your horse. I hope she gets better soon. I agree with you about losing the stud chain. Sorry you had to go through this but it sounds like an accident to me.

I have a leather halter that has a throat latch release. This way when I turn my horse out, the halter slips right over his head easily. Stuff does happen with horses all the time it's just murphy's law.

WTG
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 7:49 am:

I say our safety comes first. If it's me getting hurt or the horse, well I'll pick the horse though it's of course best if no one gets hurt.

I very seldom use the chain over the nose but when I have in the past I run it thru the rings as described above and when I put it over the nose band I cross it over on the band itself one time. So there is a twist there otherwise I find if you get slack in the rope suddenly the chain is at their teeth or under their chin which in some horses scares them.

Most of the time I have baling twine in my pocket which is uncut from coming off the bale. I use that over their nose, usually without a lead rope even. 2 of my horses have to come in a stall, wait, then cross the aisle to their stall. I loop the twine over their nose, no halter, and it stops the mad dash to the grain bucket. Used with the halter and lead the twine makes a nice "Pay attention to me" addition without the harshness of the chain. Plus a horse can pretty easily break the twine string. Of course training to be respectful and give to pressure are the best ways to go.

Beth,

I am sure your horse will be fine, so don't let it bother you that an accident happened. You had his best interests in mind and your safety in mind and that is what matters. Keeping any horse on stall rest is a challenge; I hate it and wish I could keep the horse tranquilized the whole time!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 10:34 am:

Hi All, I have just borrowed a "Dually Halter" from a friend. this is the Monty Roberts Halter that has a double nylon type nose "chain" built into the halter. Levi had been walking right through his halter with me on the other end. I was longing him in an open round pen, when the other 2 horse went zipping by. Levi turned to bolt to follow. Normally he would have ripped the long line through my fingers, but this time when he got to the end, his head zipped back around to me and we were under control. The design is such, that I don't think it would do any more damage, than running with a halter and long rope should he get away. the rolled nylon gets the message across and does not seem to be as harsh, nor dangerous to humans. I have a friend whose lead chain broke and snapped flying back hitting her in the eye doing permanent damage.
Just my recent experience with this type of halter has me sold. Anyone else had experience with this type of halter?

suz
Member:
Angelvet

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 10:52 am:

Just thought I'd add a note in here. As with any piece of training equipment, a chain over the nose should always be introduced in a controlled environment first so a horse understands what the equipment is about and you can gauge how your horse will react to its use. Start in the stall, then move into a small area like the barn aisle, starting and stopping the horse a few times so he feels the chain over his nose and understands what it means. All our horses are introduced to a chain over the nose early in training when they are working every day or turned out regularly. That way, if there ever comes a time where the extra control is needed, the horses will understand and accept the extra control.
New Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 11:43 am:

I, too, am a proponent of the 'stud chain'. I have a 17.2 Appendix QH affectionately known as Alpo. No, I wouldn't can him, but he put me in the trauma center once. He is very impulsive, and though some intense training has helped to develop some manners and respect, he is not trustworthy in some situations, and might not ever be. I think I owe it to others, and to myself, as well as 'Alpo', to control the situation as well as possible. I bought him last January, and we are getting there, but he still needs work. Hence, the stud chain. I don't like it any more than he does, but it has its place. You need to know your horse. I have a 7-month-old that stood last night while a rooster jumped on his back squawking and flapping. The colt moved one foot. Baron (Alpo) would still be running...with me hanging on to his lead for dear life. Two different animals, two ways of handling.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 12:54 pm:

Whether we choose to use a stud chain on a horse or not, is obviously a very individual issue. The wisdom that appears in these posts, is that teaching a horse to give to pressure, whether from a chain or from a piece of twine or from the nose band of a halter or from a perceptive "ach!" is a training issue.

I have found it to be true that my horses will meet whatever expectaions I set for them . . .
I will not tolerate a horse pulling against me . . . if he does, we have a training session right then and there . . . and we don't stop until the horse gives . . . We may have to repeat the lesson 20 steps later, but that's great because it means my horse will be better trained as we both get more opportunities to practice.

Of COURSE, there are instances when we are dealing with an untrained horse, and need extra leverage, for example, when we have to call a vet for a horse that isn't ours or for a horse that is terrified and/or hurt . . .

I admit that my first reaction to seeing a horse led with a chain under his nose or jaw is to cringe . . . Over the past 34 years, I have seen stud chains misused, by both "experts" who should know the proper use, and total novices who don't even know WHY they use them . . . Due to the way I have seen them brutally used, I am prejudiced against their use.

If we have to train a horse to give to the pressure and/or pain of a chain across his nose, why not train him to give to the pressure of a halter noseband, or a piece of twine?

I know there are sometimes unforseen circumstances when our horses (or even WE) may spook, and we know that our horses' first instinct is to run . . . Good training trains those instincts out of the horse when the horse is being handled by a human. The horse has to be trained to be focused on what his handler is asking . . . and the handler must be focused on the horse. (Many accidents happen when WE loose our focus and get careless around our horses. If we don't remain focused on where our horse's attention is, and if we don't continue to keep that attention, then we can't expect our horse to remain focused on us. I see this truth applied in a classroom of human students every day. If I don't keep a keen focus on the students and keep them busy, they will find their own busy-ness . . . and that spells disaster in a classroom.)

If we expect our horses to pull, and if we aren't conscious of our own contributions to teaching them to pull (hanging with the weight of our hand on the lead line while the horse is standing, tying with no slack, keeping pressure on the reins even when the horse is giving to the bit, teaching the horse to move over on a push instead of a touch or or even the pressure they can learn to feel from the MOVEMENT of our finger toward their bodies) then we teach them to be heavy . . . And if we are content with heaviness, then that is what we will get from them.

I have a really crazy gelding . . . he is one of the goosiest horses with whom I have ever worked. He will jump out of his skin at any unexpected movement from a human, and he has several times tried to pull away while standing tied, and pulled to run when being lead, BUT when he hits the end of the lead, he softens in his neck and comes toward the pressure . . . he may stand bug-eyed and trembling, but he will stand . . . And I have to continually refresh this training into him when I lead, groom, and ride.

I have witnessed many pulling pony competitions at county fairs over the years . . . Those horses have been trained to pull against pressure . . . and they can move thousands of pounds . . . Which tells me, that if a horse wants to run away, it doesn't matter if we have a stud chain, bicycle chain, twisted wire, barbed wire, nylon webb or twine across his nose . . . If the horse wants to run, then he is going to pull our less than 250 lbs all over the barn yard . . . In that case, the best thing we can do is let go of the lead.

In any event, working with horses is a risky business . . . and the number one consideration is our safety, with our horses' safety and well-being second . . . Whether using a chain or halter or twine, if we are content and safe with our methods, then that is the important thing. As long as there is evidence of empathetic and skillful use of a stud chain, then I can accept it's use in individual circumstances.
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 1:15 pm:

Thanks all for the interesting posts and opinions. I keep trying to think about what I could've done to avoid this accident. I have been around horses my whole life and am definitely aware it could've been worse: I could be missing some fingers or other body parts too. So, at least that didn't happen. Without the chain he may have bolted before we got to the pasture and wiped out on the driveway, who knows. I did have that chain clipped to the right side ring on the halter, wound once around the nose band, and out the left side ring.The halter itself shifted with the jerk when he stepped on the lead and so the clip got him in the bridge of the nose, thank goodness not the eye. I did the John Lyons turn around before releasing, so as to prevent a kick (which he has never intentionally done- I anticipated a joyful kick and run.) I even backed the horse a few times to assert my control over him, as if he were a stallion or something (he might as well be sometimes). He was going to take off anyway, unfortunately. Nothing to be done about it. He does not seem to understand that God has given me dominion over him! Ha. Oh well, I love him anyway, he has such a wonderful spirit. Not a kid's horse, though (when I bought him, I was given the old story that the seller's daughter had suddenly lost interest in riding- yeah, they left out the part about that coming after getting bounced from "Bucky!" Lol.
I was thinking about the stall rest situation. Perhaps stall rest for an abscess isn't the best thing if the horse isn't normally stalled. Sudden and complete confinement must be confusing. I also didn't alter his grain amount- so he had the usual energy level. This may have been a mistake. Cutting it in half for the duration of his rest may have been the better approach- though he doesn't get that much to begin with. With 2 grams of Bute per day I wanted him to have food in his stomach, so I had lots of different considerations.
I am going to investigate the halter Susan wrote about, the Monty Roberts one. Sounds like just the thing for my horse. Thanks for the great posts all- Beth Gordon
PS Along the same lines of stuff that can go wrong, I thought I'd add this funny story- when I was around 12 or 13 years old I had this arabian mare, very spooky (what were may parents thinking??) One day I asked my mother to hold her lead rope while I did something inside. I saw Mom heading for a wrought iron bench and yelled, don't let her wind herself around the bench! Mom acknowledged. After about 2 minutes I looked outside and saw my mom flying up, up into the air maybe 10 feet or so, like a karate movie, and the mare and the bench disappearing in a cloud of dust. The mare came back about 15 minutes later, cut up but OK. The really heavy bench we found a few days later in the bushes. Luckily my mom didn't break anything. Mom talks about this event every Thanksgiving!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 5:24 pm:

Beth, I can relate to the bench story. When I first got Dusty I was out hanging out in the yard with my two horses. I had them both tied to a picnic table(I know,everyone reading already knows the rest of the story!). When I unhooked Cody to walk him back, Dusty thought he was free as well. Suddenly this huge monster is trailing behind a very frightened horse. He took off at a hundred miles an hour, racing towards the grove. I started yelling for my husband to stop him. He, being a more intelligent human than I, looked at me like (excuse me . . . 1000 lbs of speeding bullet, and you want me to what????) Surprisingly, my Cody ran out to the grove to stop his buddy, thankfully. The picnic table was no more, but horse was ok. Took several years to get him to stand tied after that! Yikes, what we learn from these guys.
suz
I have found the halters on Monty Roberts Web site and e-bay.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 5:34 pm:

Beth, that story had me laughing out loud! Thanks for the response Hollywood. In hindsight, I am so mad at myself for not unhooking the hose. Live and learn-thankful that we are ok! I never thought he would shoot back that far.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 17, 2005 - 8:07 am:

It seems about once a year one of the stallions we are standing would develop this rapid turn and bolt when released into the pasture habit. While during the non-breeding season they do not usually need a nose chain it is a great asset during breeding season especially when teasing. So occasionally I have run into this turn and bolt while a nose chain is on and it can be troublesome. I have found a training technique that usually works in just one or two days.

I lead them out with both the nose chain on a large soft cotton rope and a regular lead clipped under the chin. When we get to the pasture I make a bit of a show of unhooking the nose chain but just undo the chin snap, he whirls but before he can get around on me I snatch him back around, clip the chin snap back and let him calm back down then repeat it. Only when he remains calm during the first unsnapping is the second one unsnapped. Often just one lesson is needed but a young stallion we stood this year came to us apparently doing this for years took two days to learn but been OK since. I keep waiting for the old stallion to learn OK I have to wait for the second release but after 15 years of about a once every year or two having to relearn this we have not had to go to that 3rd lead.
DrO
New Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Nov 17, 2005 - 10:22 am:

Thanks, all, for the very good advice. I will look for the Monty Roberts halter and give that a try on Baron (aka Alpo). As noted earlier, he is doing better, but four years before I bought him of getting away with murder is taking some time to undo. Beautiful animal, and I am really looking forward to the day when we can throw away the chain.
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