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Discussion on Alfalfa/Timothy Cubes for FAT heavy horse
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New Member:
Hughekl
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 17, 2005 - 10:54 pm:
I have recently switched my horse to Ontario Dehy Alfalfa/Timothy cubes due to his COPD. My question is how much should he have per day since this is his only source of forage. He weighs about 1174 (according to a weight tape) and is a 15h 12yr old QH gelding. In everyone's opinion around the barn (including the ferrier), he is considered FAT. He hasn't been worked all summer due to his COPD and when he wasn't eating pasture, he had his nose in the hay. So now he's in a seperate paddock, no more hay and is getting a 1/2 scoop of grain in the AM along with about 8 to 10lbs of cubes (same portion of each in the PM) With winter coming on, I don't want him losing weight, but I don't want him any fatter than he already is... he gets fed 2x per day... and recommendations say he needs 1% to 2% of his body weight per day in "forage"... I just want to make sure he's getting enough, but not too much... When weather allows, I will take him out and ride him now that his COPD seems to be under control (thank goodness!) How much would you recommend per day of the cubes as forage in this case?? and is feeding them 2x a day adequate?? Also, I know he's feeling good these days, but I don't want him feeling too good, if ya know what I mean, I don't want to make him high as a kite! :-) Thanks!! Kris (and Rusty)
PS: I'am assuming he really is fat... I've heard of COPD horses developing not only heave lines, but huge barrels from the stress of breathing... He has had COPD on and off for a little over 2yrs and hopefully it will now be "off" for many years to come thanks to all of your wonderful articles and advice :-)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 7:52 am:
Delighted to be of help. To evaluate his forage needs we also need to know is there any pasture in his paddock and how many hours a day is he on pasture. For more on evaluating a horse's condition, big barrel or not, see Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation.
DrO
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New Member:
Hughekl
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 10:27 am:
Thanks for the prompt response Dr. 0.! :-) He is actually turned out in the outdoor arena that's about 50x100, so there's no pasture for him to munch on now that he's seperated. He's outdoors 24x7 and has access to a run-in/feed slot in the barn. When summer comes and the pasture is ready, he'll be able to go back out with his buddies since hay won't be fed to them for a few months over the summer.
My biggest concern was if feeding him 2x per day was adequate (some say when feeding cubes, 3x per day is necessary...) I will try the techniques in the article you referred me to to get a better estimate of his weight.
Thanks again!
Kris
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 11:35 am:
Hello Kristen,
I have a 15.2 hand, 1100 pound quarter horse who is on a cubed diet. His are straight alfalfa. He gets approximately 16lbs plus a pound of concentrates and supplements spaced out 2 times a day. Although feeding 3 times a day would be preferable, 2 times a day is OK and shouldn't pose any problems. Just make sure your guy has plenty of water to drink.
Another good article to read is "Care of the Horse", Nutrition, Forages for Horses,an Overview.
There is a sidebar article on feeding cubes to horses.
Hope this helps and Welcome to HorseAdvice  .
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:47 am:
Many feed their horses just twice a day without problems but three is better. There is less wastage usually and the horse goes for shorter periods without something to munch on.
An estimate of his need for forage could be as low as 25 lbs but you have to feed to maintain both a calm horse and the desired condition. If he becomes bored with no forage in front of him he may need another 5 or 10 lbs. But if on this forage he remains too fat you will need to get a less nutrient dense forage like straight timothy cubes. It is a balancing act that you have to work out: enough chew time without too many calories.
DrO
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New Member:
Hughekl
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:30 pm:
Thanks Dr. O. and Susan!! He will be completely weaned off hay and onto cubes Monday. This morning he got a flake of hay and about 6lbs of cubes and for the first time, he went for the cubes first instead of the hay! :-)
The outdoor arena he's in borders the pasture, so he still gets to socialize with the herd and is able to play (somewhat) over the fence with is buddies, so that occupies him a bit. I'll stick with feeding 2x per day and see how he does and I can always increase it from there.
Thanks for your prompt responses! :-)
Kris (and Rusty)
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Monday, Nov 21, 2005 - 1:18 pm:
Just a warning to people feeding hay cubes. Some local people in our area bought a truckload of hay cubes to feed their nine horses. They all ended up dying. The last three were sent to U.C. Davis vet school to try to save them, but they died too. After analysis, it turned out the hay cubes had fiddleneck in them. This toxic wildflower is common in Calif. and other areas. My new ranch property has acres of it! Horses will eat fiddleneck and also deer. I have been told that sheep and cows can eat it and not be affected because of their different digestive process. The toxicology expert at UC Davis told me that it slowly destroys the liver of the horse and ALL parts of the plant are toxic (unlike some info on the internet). Even when new liver cells are regenerated, they are deformed from the previous ingestion. Damage is cumulative and permanent even if not enough is ingested to cause death. So make certain that you feed cubes that are safe especially if you buy in bulk to save money. Good luck.
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New Member:
Hughekl
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Posted on Monday, Nov 21, 2005 - 3:39 pm:
Thanks for the info Gail. The cubes I'm using come out of Canada, but I'm looking to switch to the Forage First ones manufactured by ADM right here in Illinois because they are less expensive than those in Canada. I haven't heard of fiddleneck around here, but I will make sure to keep an eye out!
Has anyone heard of horses foundering when switching to cubes (even when switching over gradually, like 7-10 days) ?? My horse came up lame on Friday and I called the Ferrier out, who didn't think it was founder, thought maybe an abscess because it was the left front... but after 2 days of soaking in epsom salts, no absess... but he's still a little stiff (although better than he was friday night). I'll check on him again here in a few hours and see how he's doing...
Thanks again! Kris
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Nov 21, 2005 - 4:11 pm:
Yes, thank you, Gail. Wow . . . what a tragedy. I have always bought cubes in 50lb bags, but when you say "a truckload" do you mean a truckload of bagged cubes?
Do you know who was the manufacturer? I would think that a feed manufacturer would have to get feed from tested fields . . . I guess not. What an awful shame . . . I hope the owners can be recompensed for their horses . . . I know that we can't really replace them, but there should be some monetary recompense from the feed company.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 21, 2005 - 8:13 pm:
This is a good point to bring up. Know the source of your cubes and ask a LOT of questions about how they are manufactured. Get a GUARANTEED analysis and find out what foodstuffs went into the cubes to arrive at such analysis.
I don't know what Laws prevail in Illinois or the US regarding equine food labelling. While I consider my gelding, A family member, a pet and my companion, someone else considers him "livestock".
My geldings caregivers buy 1100lb containers of cubes as there are 3 horses in their care eating this diet. The cubes come from a feed supplier who also breeds and raises Arabian Horses. The supplier also has a reputation to uphold.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 21, 2005 - 9:58 pm:
Triple Crown sells a T & A (50%/50%) cube that is harvested at the peak of perfection in Washington State. I believe it is guaranteed to be "blister beetle free," which is something I worry about with these forages. In my dealings with this firm I have to believe they would be on top of any possible hazards such as toxins in their product.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 22, 2005 - 9:35 am:
I have used Triple Crown Timothy Alfalfa mix and have never had a bad batch!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 23, 2005 - 6:06 am:
Weeds in the hay, beetles in the alfalfa, mold in the grain, carcass parts in any...every feedstuff has the potential for several toxins and so must be examined for wholesomeness. How the feed is stored, date of manufacture, appearance of the packaging, appearance, feel, and odor of the feed all should be carefully assessed.
DrO
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