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  Discussion on Mash diets - is there a limit?
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 - 3:59 pm:

I have taken in an aged gelding, condition score 2.5. I have slowly worked him up to the following diet: 5 lbs. (dry weight) alfalfa cubes (17%), 4 lbs. Nutrena Alaska Senior, and 1/4 cup corn oil. To this mash I add 2 and a half gallons of hot water and allow to soak. This is fed twice a day due to work schedule. In addition, the horse has small stem grass hay available 24/7. My question is this: The horse still shows good appetite when finished with the mash. How much more can I feed him, given the fact that the mash is fed only twice a day? The total weight per feeding is 29 lbs, with water. He is a 15.3 hand, TB/QH cross, supposedly 28. And yes, he still has a few molars.

Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 1999 - 6:45 am:

Hello Tiani,
Great background in your post but I do have one more question: how long does it take for him to eat a meal.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 1999 - 8:39 pm:

Dr O, originally it took over an hour for the smaller quantities. I think that was from never having been fed mashes before. At his current level as described, it takes him just about an hour. A couple of feedings have been as short as 45 minutes, and do not appear to be related to temperatures, which have moderated back into the 20s during the day. I expect temps to plummet as winter continues, and have decided that if temps DrOp below -15, I will have to provide another hot meal very late in the evening, regardless of my schedule. I had planned on using straight soaked cubes for any snacks or extra meals.

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:04 am:

Can I just put my 2 cents worth in by saying that I have always been taught - and read it again recently - that a horse's meal should never be more than 1,8 kg, which is say 4 lb. Therefore, if you want to feed your horse 20 lb, it should be fed over 5 meals.

If one gives a horse 10 lb of grain/mash/whatever, most horses will continue to eat until the food is finished, but I believe this is very bad for their digestion and can encourage colic. A horse's stomach can only cope with 1,8 kg in one sitting.

I will be interested to hear what Dr. O says when he comes back.

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 7:50 am:

Surely the alfalfa cubes are just fibre, no different from feeding hay. It is artificial feed like cereals which horses weren't designed to eat which overload their stomachs. My horse has 25lbs of hay a day and just a false feed of chop, vitamin supplement and a few treats, carrots etc 3 times a day as she has far too much energy. She gets some weight gain cubes in the summer during the show season. Oh yes, and she has oil added to her feeds all year round too. She is 15.1hh and errs on the lean side although has lots of muscle. I like to have her eating all day if possible to mimic nature, hence all the hay.

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 8:26 am:

Hello All,
Boy, if he is eating it that fast I think we need to be careful. Many of these older horses with poor teeth spend all day eating. By the way what is his current condition and how is it changing?

AFM's guidline is not too far off the mark for a 1000 lb horse. Feedings of a grain based concentrate to a horse should be limited to 4% on a dry matter basis, of the bodyweight of the horse per meal. That means most concentrates can be fed at about 5% of bodyweight since they contain a bit of water. Larger meals conttribute to digestive dysfunction due to starch overload. This can lead to illness and poor digestive efficiency. When these guidelines are exceeded you can measure a dramatic increase in: the amount of undigested starch passing through the bowel, gas, endotoxin, and physiological abnormalities of the bowel.

As you may know, the horses tummy is also very small but we have little objective information on will a horse eat such a mixture as yours until he over distends the stomach. I have seen a mare do it on straight corn but the excessive gas production I think is what did her in.

You are feeding 4 lbs concentrate so the question is how do the alfalfa cubes figure into this. Try as I might, no text I have lists the amount of rapidly digestible starch in the alfalfa but it is quite a bit lower than grain. Hmmmmmmmm.

Considering your management problems and that he is doing well(?), I believe the answer to your question is: you are at or already over the safe limit for starch containg foods. However you can increase the oil you are feeding quite a bit. A little bit of oil is a bunch of calories and not much else but it sounds like you should be meeting the other nutritional needs of this horse already. Take a look at the article on fats in the diet in the Care: Nutrition section. It will explain in detail how to calculate the amount that can be fed and how to add it. Another way of getting more nutrition in safely would be giving access to alfalfa hay if you think he can chew it.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 1:48 pm:

Dr. O and AFM-
You have both given me much food for thought! (Pardon the pun) I knew that my common sense was telling me I had exceeded reasonable gut capacity. I check him nearly every feeding for gastric distress, elevated pulse, etc, and he appears to be handling these huge meals okay. I could slow him down by adding more water and making a soup, rather than the stiff bread dough consistency he gets now. Could I compromise somewhat, and split the meals into 3 per day, with one coming only a few hours after the other? He gets fed at 6 and 6, currently, and I *could* take him out another feeding around 9pm without alot of hassle. But that would be only two hours between meals at night....you can see my dilemma here! I have no way to get home and snack him during the day-my lunch hour isn't long enough for the drive AND the time it takes him to eat.

The senior has a relatively high fat content, and with the additional corn oil, I am concerned that I may begin compromising vitamin E absorption, since this condition (Vitamin E deficiency) seems to be common up here (Alaska). I will read the article you suggested, thank you very much!

I would say that his condition has improved somewhat since he arrived. Perhaps to 2.75 or so. He is rehydrated now, has filled in through the flank area, but new deposits of body fat as can be determined by the Henneke scale are barely present as yet. This horse had suffered marginal nutrition for quite a while, leaving not even a "hay belly" as some call it. Dental care and worming will take place next week, as we wanted some reserve for the additional stress.

He can eat hay, just very slowly. This is why he is on tender grass hay (well fertilized) and alfalfa up here is usually stemmy and overmature. I had hoped to limit the oil until the temperatures really DrOpped, to give him extra calories when extremely cold. And yes, he is blanketed 24/7. With your advice at hand, I will check into located another foster home that can do more feedings per day. Oh, one more thing, would adding a probiotic, such as FastTrack help him recover quicker?

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:07 pm:

Hi Tiani,

I do add probiotics - I recently rescued a horse as well - and I feel it helps. I also give some to my 20 year old TB who is inclined to be easily colicky.

I was wondering if the alfalfa cubes could be fed separately, sort of like part of the hay ration?
I don't actually know anything about alfalfa cubes as we don't get them here, but are they 100% alfalfa or mixed with something else? Are they safe to feed ad lib, or must they be rationed carefully like grain?

If you fed 4 lbs of Alaska Senior as a mash 3 times a day, plus he has some alfalfa cubes, plus he has nice tender grass hay 24 hours a day, I would think he would do very well. He might eat his hay better once he has had his teeth done. And I'm sure it is better if horses recover condition slowly.

With my rescued horse, I actually fed him 4 times a day but only 500g a meal to start with, and then gave him an unlimited amount of various types of hay with just 1 kg of alfalfa late at night at the same time as his last hay net. But he ate hay voraciously and is a young chap, so the situation is different. Also, our temperatures are very different! He is now on 3 meals of 1 kg. plus unlimited hay, and has just about reached his ideal weight. Now it will be a matter of bringing him slowly into work, and building up muscle.

I hope you keep us informed of his progress.

-Alexa-

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:25 pm:

Hello All,
Well Tiana, it looks like you are dong a good job with a difficult situation. With the two evening feedings being so close together I do not think I would divide the ration evenly. I would leave the morning feeding the same and divide the evening feeding into two. Then any additional food that needs to be added I would add to the split evening meal. If it gets to where you can decrease concentrate I would subtract it from the morning meal.

Alfalfa cubes are 100% alfalfa and usually can be fed just like alfalfa hay, when fed dry. Some horses will snarfle them much more quickly than hay however so they should not just be put our ad lib. Introduce them slowly and see how the horse acts.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 4:27 pm:

Thanks DrO! And Alexa-

The alfalfa cubes are an extremely compressed form of the hay, stems and all. They are about 1.5 x 1.5 inches, and come in various lengths due to shipping damage, usually small peices throughout the bag. A very lumpy and difficult item to scoop! In any case, the alfalfa cubes are soaked right along with the conecntrate (senior) to make the mash. It is the alfie which needs so much water. He can get down the senior dry, luckily. This is a common remedial diet for recovering horses in Alaska. The cubes have a known protein percentage, there's no waste whatsoever, and you know exactly how much the horse is ingesting. It just takes commitment and scheduling (and muscles!) to feed a mash diet, whatever is fed.

The only place I have seen Alfalfa cubes or pellets fed dry was in Arizona on a working ranch where they had several small silos full, and the horses had free choice. (There was no edible pasture)

I will try splitting the evening feeding into two seperate meals, and see if that doesn't help. If he can get it down quick enough, I may break it into thirds instead. 3 pounds cubes, 2 and a half pounds senior per feeding. That would give him about 9 pounds alfalfa, and 7 pounds senior. I have done mashes before, and NEVER fed more than 3 pounds dry weight cubes that were soaked. BTW, some horses here locally eat only senior rations, expensive, but if they can gum it down, it works.

Ideally, I'd feed four times a day. I hope to have this horse placed into a permanent adoptive home by the holidays-he's a grand old man with loads of character, amazing movement and grace despite having ringbone, and in general is a dream to handle. His previous life was as a third level dressage competitor :)

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 8, 1999 - 1:16 pm:

Update on mash diet.

Just to let all know that I have changed the feeding schedule as DrO suggested (Thank you very much!) and here's what I'm doing: AM feeding, 4 lbs alfie cubes, 3 lbs senior, 2 gallons of water-for a total of 23 lbs. It takes him about 45 minutes to lick the feed pan clean. Evening feedings are at 6 and 9, and they are each: 3 lbs cubes and 2 lbs senior, plus 1.5 gallons of water. It takes him approximately 30 minutes to finish.

I took comparison photos on Sunday the 6th, and am happy to report I can comfortably place him at about a scant CS three or so. Major progress!

Posted on Thursday, Dec 9, 1999 - 7:03 pm:

Boy, am I impressed with all the knowledge out there! I have a 27 year old gelding that we have begun to realize is not handling hay very well. We feed timothy, which is not that coarse, but we have noticed that he is now spitting out balls of chewed hay. He is able to handle the Phase 5 we give him and we have just started adding Beet Pulp twice a day (3 cups soaked). He loves it and scarfs is down quite quickly. We are considering adding the alfalfa cubes. I don't give him any oil. His health is excellent but I feel he could use a bit of weight. Any comments?
Thanks, Pam.

Posted on Thursday, Dec 9, 1999 - 7:51 pm:

Hi Pamela,

I would check your horse's teeth, they may need to be floated. Also at this advanced age it may be that his molars are so worn that he can't handle the hay any more. After the vet checks him out discuss the use of cubes with her/him.

TeresaA

Posted on Friday, Dec 10, 1999 - 7:46 am:

Hello Pamella,
Teresa got to you before we could request you start your own discussion rather than post at the bottom of someone elses. It really helps people looking for information.

While we are here, the term for what your horse is doing is called "quidding", and the balled up forage "quids". Isn't equine vocabulary neat? You might do a search for the term and find other discussions on this. It is a common reaction to bad teeth, so have it looked at as Tereasa suggests, and yes, I think soaked alfalfa cubes may help your horse.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 10, 1999 - 6:38 pm:

Hi Dr O:
Thank you for your help, and sorry for posting on the end of someone elses discussion. I learned something new today! I should have started a new discussion for my comments. I will do so in future.
Thanks, Pamela2.
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