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Discussion on I'm so confused!!
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 7:10 pm:
Hi again DrO and everyone!! I last posted about my weanling's cowpie problems and his upcoming weaning (Diarrhea problems in weanling). Well, the weaning occured on Monday-it went very, very well. I followed DrO's advice and took mom away to a boarding barn and left baby with his granddam. Nobody yelled or screamed or ran....it was awesome! Nothing at all like what I was expecting. He did attempt to nurse his granddam most of the week but I noticed today that is tapering off. He seems very adjusted to his new situation.
In preparation for this big event I've been reading DrO's nutrition articles and I admit I'm very confused  . The foal nutrition is over my head!
My hay is a good alfalfa/grass mix but it has way more alfalfa then grass. I was told by the grower it was a dry summer and the alfalfa just grew better. I've been mixing bales if necessary to keep it half and half but I would still say it's more alfalfa (and both granddam and foal tend to leave the grass and focus on the alfalfa). I feed baby Buckeye Growth feed-approx. 1lb a day (2 half pound feedings). He gets probiotics daily and is currently on daily sand clear for his cowpies. He has free choice access to a salt block and a mineral block. I feed enough hay to keep them eating most of the day to keep it as free choice as possible. Baby is lean but very tall for his age. Granddam is obese and has been most of her life. I feed them the hay together. They are on a dry lot 24/7.
I read in the articles that baby should have 1.7lb concentrate per 100 lbs of weight-for him this would equal 7.5 lbs a day. Because I am feeding more alfalfa then recommended, I'm feeling like I shouldn't up his grain (and that seems like an awful lot to me-I have always fed more hay then concentrates). Is this right? I am feeding him "with my eyes". He is a good weight for him and growing; joints look good; energy good. He's put on close to 100lbs since mid-September. Is this too much alfalfa for him? I expect him to grow to approx 1000lbs so I calculate 5lbs of alfalfa a day at this age? I do have a friend that is willing to trade me 50bales of grass for 50bales of alfalfa. I'd hate to trade my good alfalfa if I don't really have to. Thanks again for your time!!!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 8:42 pm:
Kim, frankly I don't feed my young horses any grain at all...I free feed a grass / alfalfa mix... sometimes it is more grass other times it is more alfalfa... generally speaking you want the young horse to be on the thinner side... much better for the growing joints and bones...
RELAX... I would worry tho about the fat nanny ...
just my 2 cents....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 10:42 pm:
I agree with Ann, except I usually feed alfalfa and oat hay. As long as its good quality hay. There are many people who have very sound healthy horses with this diet.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 11:36 pm:
Whew!! Thanks guys!! I've never raised a baby before, so all of this is really new to me.
I do worry about the old girl, she is pretty overweight. I thought about stalling her for a few hours during feedings, but she does much better being able to move about freely. As soon as the baby's mom gets back, that'll be two overweight horses to worry about balancing along with giving the baby his hay. Yeesh!
Anybody have any suggestions on that? I only have one paddock, but could easily let my old girl (and the mom when she returns) out on our backyard to eat their hay (it's fenced in). I don't know how the baby will take to being left alone though!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 8:27 am:
Kim,
I've always fed mixed hay freely to my foals. Meaning alfalfa, timothy, and grass. I used to feed Omelene 300 or 200 to them, but now I use Nutrena's Safe Choice. I feel much better feeding that, it's low starch and seems balanced nutrition wise. A guy at our Equifest really sold me on the Nutrena products.
I'd be worried with just feeding hay, I figure if I've invested in the mare's care, the stud fee, and all that, I want to make sure the 1st few yrs of the foals life is handled top notch too.
Of course everyone's opinion as to what "top notch" feeding is will differ, so don't worry too much about it, he'll do just fine.
Can you stall the foal at night by himself? That way he can eat hay all night and his can be a little bit richer, during the day feed more on the grassy side with the other 2. I do that yet with a 3 yr old I have who is still growing and needs more than the rest.
Relax and enjoy your baby!! I am jealous, and now I am ready for another foal to be born here.
Angie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:07 am:
Kim,
the article states the numbers you give as rough guidelines and are rough because of the wide variety of breeds that differ quite a bit in their feed efficiency. The problem with each of the members recommendations above is that, just like our rough guidelines that may work in some situations, is what works in their situation with their foals, which may not apply to you. Weaning foals is an unnatural event and takes away a concentrated source of food and that is the resson many foals need a large portion of their diet as concentrate and the younger the foal the more concentrated the feed needs to be.
You should pay more attention to the following paragraph that starts To Sum it Up: Always Feed Concentrate Using Your Eyes as it gives absolute recommendations on how to feed your foal. If you are uncertain about judging condition see the article on this subject in the nutrition section.
DrO
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:10 am:
Absolutely, the foal needs more than just hay for optimal bone growth, etc. You should feed some kind of supplement in a pelleted form if you aren't going to feed a grain ration that contains vitamins and minerals. Hay only is alright for a mature horse to maintain it, but even then you need to have a mineral salt block. Your baby will grow, but will not have the building blocks he needs. That is just my opinion. EO
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Member:
Lilly
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:31 am:
Kim,
Do you your stalls have dutch doors? You know the type that the top half shuts or the bottom half shuts? If you had that type of door then you could leave the bottom half open and the top half shut and the baby could go into the stall whenever he wanted to but a grown up horse wouldn't be able to follow. That way the baby could have access to all the hay he wanted. I don't know if your barn is set up to accomodate this type of situation.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 9:40 am:
Rereading the above posts I do see one thing that concerns me and that is you have both a salt and mineral block. The mineral block provides essential minerals while the salt block would deprive him of them, you should just use the mineral block which is after all mainly salt.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 11:42 am:
OK-taking in all this information I think I got it....at least my headache is gone.
I will remove the salt block-I thought it was OK to offer both and they would lick on what they felt they needed (probably an old horseman's tale?)
On a condition scale, "Legs" is a 4-5 (his topline is flat although ribs are visible on his sides). I re-read To Sum it Up: Always Feed Concentrate Using Your Eyes. I will continue to follow him with my eyes and add concentrate as necessary to keep him in good weight.
I spent alot of time on Buckeye's website and they state that if the recommended ration of 6 to 7.5 lbs of Growth is too many pounds to feed/day, subtract 3 lbs of Growth Formula and add one pound of Gro'N Win. I happen to have Gro'N Win which I was feeding his mom when she was nursing him. I had Legs on this too (mixed in with the Growth), but when he started cowpies, I took him off wondering if it was the culprit. I don't believe it was as he continued cowpies long after he stopped the Gro'N Win (but I never re-started him on it as he was continuing to shoot up in height and still nursing)
I can certainly add that back into his ration as a third feeding in the afternoon for the vitamin/mineral content because this is where he would be lacking, as he is only getting 1lb day of Growth-well below their recommendations but enough to keep him in good flesh for right now. Per the Buckeye website: This will maintain mineral and vitamin levels while decreasing calories in the total diet. I'm still concerned about the alfalfa on top of this, seems like an overload of vitamins to me.... what are the consequences of too MUCH vitamins/minerals vs. too little.
Angie, this was my first and LAST baby!! It was wonderful and a great experience, but so much work and effort and $$$ that I had no idea about. Then you get into weaning and nutrition and it's a whole new set of things to learn!
Unfortunately I only have one stall left (I took 2 down to make the lean-to portion of the barn bigger) and I think if granddam didn't stay in the barn with him he'd probably hurt himself trying to get to her. I don't have dutch doors, but that would be an awesome idea!! I might be able to get my husband to rig something up. He's very tall, so he may very well require a height that his granddam could squeeze under too!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 20, 2005 - 9:00 am:
It would be a little unusual to have a flat top line yet still have ribs visible. Usually by the time the top line is flat the ribs are covered. If this is indeed the case and without any other information I would call this a 5 and maybe more with other signs of fat accumulation over the hips.
The horse does have a appetite for salt (NaCl) particularly when needed. But no particular appetite for the other minerals. Mineral blocks are designed to provide salt and when consumed in normal amounts to also provide the other minerals in adequate quantities. When you provide a salt block without minerals this can satisfy his appetite for minerals but not provide the essential nutrients. You can read about mineral and vitamin toxicity in the articles on minerals and overview of vitamins.
I am not sure what is magic about "subtracting 3 and adding 1" Kim. You feed the amount of a well-balanced concentrate needed to maintain the desired condition. If both your forages and concentrate are of good quality, good nutrition almost always follows. Your best guide is usually a well maintained diary.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 20, 2005 - 5:31 pm:
Thanks for the clarification on the salt and mineral blocks DrO. This was something I picked up from an old breeder and it made sense at the time!
I am going to continue to follow your articles/recommendations and up the Growth grain using my eyes and keep it simple. I don't want to get into 3lbs of this and 1lb of that either. I trust my hay and I love Buckeye products. I'll check that body condition on him again and I'll use that as my guide.
I want to say that this website has answered so many questions for me (I even looked up how much grain Legs can have at one feeding as related to stomach size and found that information easily!) and this service has already paid for itself by giving me peace of mind!
Next will be the deworming and seeing if those cowpies stay gone!
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 24, 2005 - 8:39 am:
Dr. O
You said that feeding a salt block with a mineral block(I am assuming this is a horse min block not the 'red' one designed for cows) would deprive the horse of mineral. Do you mean because the horse will choose the salt block over the mineral they won't lick enough mineral?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 24, 2005 - 6:42 pm:
Yes. I am not aware there is a difference between a cow or a horse mineral block though there are several different types of mineral blocks. We talk about what the different colors means in our article on salts and minerals.
DrO
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