This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Particular Situations & Procedure topics not covered by above »
  Discussion on Start of Potential Health Problem
Author Message
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Monday, Dec 19, 2005 - 10:37 pm:

Dr. O

Need opinion and advise on new situation regarding my horse. Due to a recent family emergency, brother having second recurring bout with cancer, I decided to leave Northern Va. and move back home were my brother still is. This was a short notice move, decided 4 Nov, then Horse T.O. was transported by friend on 12 Nov to "boarding operation" my nephew found up here in East Central Pa. It turns out that horses are a rare commodity up here, about as common as an 1929 Cadillac. Anyway when we transported the horse it turned out the location was great as it was only 4 miles from where I would be renting a house for a year. However, I did get some bad vibs upon DrOpping the horse off on the 12th. I arrived in the area on the 20th of Nov.

For some reason I am having trouble getting this posted, tried before twice with no joy. Anyway I will make this as brief as possible. Here is the situation.

Turns out there are a total of 7 horses not counting mine. Of these only one other is a boarder. A pretty mean, I would call him rogue (towards other horses) standard bred. There are two guildings and a pony that are parred off, and three mares likewise. With the exception of the mean standard bred the horses are for the most part kept in doors in the barn. The barn is quite large but old, and has huge stalls.
When the other horses do get out it is the guildings and pony in one paddock, the mares in the other. T.O. is odd man out I did not find this out untill recently.

Problems: The owner does not run a full time boarding operation, rather she works full time, and then cares for the horses (along with her husband) in the evening. Only fed once a day, in the evening, T.O. gets about 2.5 quarts of Purina equine senior, which I pay extra for. She uses Omaline 10 percent which I do not like due to oats, and my Vet down in Va recommended the senior anyway, as T.O. is an agressive eater, and has wavy mouth, with a lot of crevices. He also gets a helthy portion of timithy and alfalfa cubes, and gets two apples, plus apple flavored "treats" (horse cookies) which she gives him.

T.O. is not going to starve in the short run, as he is quite healthy and can afford to lose some weight. He is also confined to stall so not getting much exercise, which is my major problem. I have gone round and round on this with the operator and she tells me well "I will figure something out". Problem is she doesn;t, and with the exception of about nine hours over three days, T.O. has not been out since the 12th of November. Now for the next problem. Noticed that he was flaring his nostrils, and for the lack of a better term, "blowing" several weeks ago when I took his blanket over. This was before the weather had turned bad up here, and the barn is very cold. I had led him to the barn door to let him out to graze a little and I noticed when he got to the door, he flared his nostrils and made the strange blowing sound. I ran him up and down the side of a hill but there was no sign of heavy breathing, heaving of breath, or the like. Asked the lady who boards when the last time T.O. was out and did she notice the nose flaring? Answer was, back then, he had not been out, and did not notice anything unusual. Thats when I found out about the situation. That did not site well at all. I told her she had to get the horse out into fresh air. "Well I'll try" was the response. Not good enough I said bad enviornment for horse to be stabled all day, day in and day out. Several days later I received a call from the women saying her other boarder, the owner of the nasty standardbred, said T.O. had Pnemonia from being trailered up and needed vet so she called hers. The later I went along with, the former I told her he was nuts. Problem as I told her, was enviornment, horse NEEDED TO GET OUT. So I too then called her vet, and set up a time for the appointment. I deliberatly did not lead the vet on with my opinion. She (the vet) checked the horse in considerable detail. Temp 99.7 (I said it was going to be 99.6); he was blanketed. No signs of heavy breathing, or heaving at rest or on exercise. He did flare his nostrile, and made sound initially on going out doors then even with exercise sound went away flaring of nostrils went away. Vet noticed this and had me run the horse up and down the hill some more, almost killed me not the horse. He was fine. No congestion, no heart problem, she even remarked how healthy he was and noticed all the dabbling on him. She checked his nostrils, held them closed and he fussed a little but was o.k. She said simple diagnosis (Dx.). He had some slight edema of the alar folds in his nostrils. Noise we were hearing was nose noise. Fluttering or vibration of irritated and inflamed alar folds. She even wrote in her Dx notes: Problem not serious but needs rectifying. Recommends plenty of fresh air. Inflammation is likely caused by constant exposure to combination of Ammonia from urine, mold, mildew, and sawdust bedding. She underlined for board lady OUTSIDE AIR IS HEALTHY. The board lady was not there when vet was but her surrogate, the owner of mean standardbred was, he managed to piggy back on my Vet visit, and not contribute. So at least he heard the hole thing. I showed the owner the Dx and Rx, for T.O. and I got "well I will try, but am afraid he or one of the other horses will get hurt". HELLO.

So now I find out that as a substitute for fresh air, she is giving T.O. MSM and Vitamine C.

First question,and sorry for the length, can the irratated Alar folds become a chronic problem? Secondly, can the MSM and vitiamin C do any harm? I am not necessarily against herbals or vitamins, remember I was the one who ended up useing Melatonine to control Photic head shaking in another horse down in Va. However, I don;t beleive in using these drugs, and that is what they are, as a substatute for something as easy as fresh air.

I fell that I have limited options at this point, either the horse gets fresh air or I will have to move him. I told her so. Still not getting through. She asked if I could come over in the A.M. and lock up old nasty, but I could not put T.O. with any of her horses. I fell badly because the lady is really trying within her means and capabilities. Further, I would have to go a much farther distance to find a suitable boarder. But again she is very kind to the animals has rescued a number out of her own pocket. I kind of feel like the crinch who stole Christmas, but I have to think of my horses health. That is my first obligation to him. Besides I can tell he is bored out of his mind. Went over two days ago and took a chance and let him out in a frozen snowy Iced over paddock, he had a ball. Ran, bucked, jumped, other old horse actually followed us out, tried to keep him in. T.O. ignored him. The older horse decided to go back into the barn on own volition.

Bottom line, can the irratated alar folds become a chronic problem: what about the MSM and vitamine C?? Will it do any good or is it just feel good (on her part). At this point, failing to get the horse out doors, is moving him (I know the answere) the right decision)

Thanks for paying attention to this missive.

Frank (not LOL)
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 1:17 am:

Dear Francis,

Did I read this post correctly in that your horse is only being fed once a day? The owner sounds nice but all horses need fresh air especially if he is in an old moldy, ammonia smelling barn. Why is the owner giving your horse MSM and Vit C?

To my limited knowledge of feeding, horse are to be fed at minimum twice daily. Optimum feeding 3 times daily. Is this correct Dr.O?

Dr.O will advise you further on the medical issues.

If this were my horse I would have been long gone from that facility.

In fact a client of mine had a 5yr old leopard appaloosa stallion. Before she became my client this lovely stallion contracted lymphangitis.

The vet said it was possibly contracted from the abhorrent stall conditions. The vet said because the horse was not out of his stall on a regular basis(owner was scared of him-with me he was always perfectly mannered) the horse was constantly smelling ammonia and the barn was 35+ yrs old as well as musty and moldy. I am still not sure how Lymphangitis is contracted. At the time it seemed likely the vet was correct about the filthy stalls. However, I have seem other horses contract lymphangitis who's stalls are kept very clean. I would like to hear Dr.O's opinion on how horses contract this horrible infection.

I feel for you and your horse.

Good luck and Happy Holidays!

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 8:54 am:

I agree with WTG, the only real solution to the long term problems is moving to a location where you are comfortable with the management and I agree with you, horses are much healthier out in the fresh air. Neither MSM nor vitamin C will substitute either. They are not harmful in themselves but since it is being used as a excuse for improper care, there is harm being done. Note that your Equine Senior is already vitamin C supplemented.

Now to the enlarged alar folds. That is not a typical response to dusty air. Usually allergic bronchitis is the result whose first signs are a cough. Dyspnea, and resulting deep or difficult breathing, can also cause nasal flare. Hmmmm...if the observation of swollen nasal tissues is correct I think you may be seeing the front end of a very mild viral URT infection, even though your temp is normal. I have also seen swelling in the head of individuals that keep their heads down a lot. I always thought that there were other factors in these cases but could not identify them and the problem self correcting. I would begin bute for the swelling and get all the feed off the floor so the horse can eat standing up. Then continue reassessing the problem to be sure the diagnosis correct and progress being made.
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 9:37 am:

I think another issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that someone is giving your horse meds without your permission. No stable manager I have ever heard of would presume to start supplementing a horse without the owner's permission. Get outta Dodge, Frank...ride him out if you have to! Your horse, and you, will be happier in the long run.
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 10:09 am:

Hi Francis,

I boarded in a very similar situation. Problem was the owner thought she knew what was best for my horse, but it was completely different from recommended care, and in my opinion, harmful. That farm was also close to my home. I finally had enough of her "opinions" and moved my horse to a facility 30 miles away. Longer drive, less convenient, but excellent care by people that consider my thoughts in the care of my horse. What a concept! I've not regretted the decision for a minute. For heavens sake, the first good nights rest was worth it! Start looking for ads in the paper, visit the farms and ask every question you can think of, but get your buddy the proper care he deserves.

Best of luck,
Linda
Member:
Miamoo

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 10:47 am:

GET OUT! OUT! OUT! OUT! OUT!

But don't burn your bridges. You are new to this area. The last thing you need is a barn full of people saying nasty things about you in an area that they are familiar with and you are not. Find a new spot and nicely say that your horse really needs the daily turnout - thanks very much. Then happily go on your merry way. QUICKLY!

Ella :-)
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 11:27 am:

Oh Francis
With everything else going on in your life, to be faced with this, my heart goes out to you! Do yourself a favor(and T.O.) and go ahead and make the move. Hindsight will tell you, you did the right thing, even though another move must seem like "just too much" right now. With all you are going thru, at least you will be able to rest easy knowing T.O. is being taken care of. Blast the "convenience" of the closeness to the barn. It surely sounded like a good idea when you found out about it, BUT it just did not turn out. Just go ahead and bite the bullet, and make one more move! I'll be praying for you and your brother (and T.O.) and hope to hear from you soon that all is well!
Nancy
Member:
Tweeter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 12:02 pm:

Francis:
Maybe you could posted exactly where you are looking to board and someone on the site might be able to help you locate another stable. Sounds like proper care is not being offered. I think horses are much happier out than in except when wet weather occurs. If they only feed once a day I am assuming they only clean once a day as well? Barn must really stink. Good luck
Kathy
Member:
Huntjump

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 12:29 pm:

Francis,
I am in Central PA. Where exactly are you located? I board at a wonderful privately owned small stable and there is an empty stall.
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 8:18 pm:

Thanks for the input, you have all basically reinforced what I know to be the correct move, just reluctant to pull horse from someone who is caring, but is unwilling to face reality, and who is just ill equipped and does not have the time to put into a "full time" operation. If I knew then (12 Nov) what I know now, T.O. never would have been in this situation. I had to rely on my nephew, and as I noted he does not know the front end of a horse from the back, so partly my fault I should have given him more guidance, but I too was somewhat misled.

Unfortunatly I have a lot of balls in the air right now, so to speak, and am juggling as fast as I can. By the way I was in a hurry with my original post so spelling was atrocious, I do apologize. As for condition of horse overall when I mentioned dabbling I obviously meant dappling.

Kristin I moved into the area around Pottsville - Hazelton. The town itself is a small town called Mahanoy City. As far as moving I found a couple of options all farther away, but the task at hand is to first get some one to trailer him to a new location. I think I can arrange that; although the time of year, Christmas season, Holidays, Weather all complicate this, but can be worked. If you are close to the Mahanou City area let me know if you know (redundant) of a stall opening.

Dr.O; you mentioned swelling or specifically
"head swelling". Maybe I gave false impression, but T.O. is not showing any noticeable signs of swelling anywhere on the head or nasal area. Vet make Dx based on symptoms, or lack there of; noise, tenderness maybe, she did pobe his nostrails with fingers. You may be right about front end of URT infection. He has developed a little bit of a runny nose. I checked his Temp myself today, and it is still, actually DrOpped back to 99.6. Also, you mentioned feed on ground when he does get fed it is in a large corner feeder about chest high, allthough obviously he DrOps some around, and picks for it. But the feed issue is another recipe for problem, among many. Just exactly what does she think the MSM would accomplish anyway? I thought it was for joints? At any rate Dr. O, Vet seemed rather emphatic on enviornment vs other, and she is the operators vet not mine, she really homed in on amonia. All though as you said could have seen him at the start of cold. He has had all his shots and is completly up to date that way. Further, his behavior when I let him out the other day, and his lack of difficulty In breathing suggests to me at least, and I am not a Vet, that if it is URT it is mild cold mainly in head area. Again if there was the beginning of a more serious problem in respiratory/Pulmanary system I would have thought there would have been some signs of congestion or breathing difficulty. Also no cough, absolutly nothing in that area. Finally Dr.O I really don't think he needs bute at this point. With the exception of the flaring of nostrils and now somewhat snotty nose, he does not seem to be in any discomfort whatever. Other than bored crazy. Please advise on benefits of bute at this time?

Thanks

Frank
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 12:01 am:

Frank,
If I were in PA I would trailer you for free! Hopefully someone from HA lives in the area and can help you considering it would be one less thing to worry about at the Holidays with everything else you are dealing with.
God Bless you and your brother and T.O.

v/r
Corinne
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 1:47 am:

Dear Frank,

Ditto what Nancy and Ella said! I couldn't have said it better. And I agree completely.

Seriously Good Luck,

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 6:58 am:

No one is comfortable with impaired breathing and if the swelling is inflammatory the bute will help relieve it so the horse can breath more normally.
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 8:18 am:

Frank, you must be a special person to make this move to be with your brother. God bless you and your family, including T.O. I wish you the best of luck in finding a place. If roads were better, I would drive from Illinois to help you out. Merry Christmas!
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 12:37 pm:

Move your horse before this woman kills him. Not only will he get worse with the breathing problems, he might even become heevy, and constant stalling is a great recipe for colic.
Chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 7:08 pm:

I absolutely agree with everyone else. Move your horse. The owner of the barn may have the best of intentions, but the best of intentions won't cover the cost and heartache of a sick or dead horse. Sorry to be so blunt...but with all the other burdens you are carrying right now, you will find at least a small measure of peace knowing your friend is being properly cared for.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 9:17 am:

Francis
How are you doing? I was just thinking of you. I know that if you could meet just one horse person with a trailer, they would haul you out of there. If you can just find one horse person, I bet they would help you! PLUS, it is Christmas time, and everyone is more aware of how giving they should be(like we should always be). Any way, if I was there, I'd come get T.O. NOW, however, Georgia is a bit too far away. Do not give up ... horse people are the best, and we help each other. You know that, and when you are back up on your feet, you will help someone else. It is the unwritten horseman's code. I am not too far away to pray, believeing that you will be outta there soon!
Nancy
Member:
Huntjump

Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 2:34 pm:

Francis,
I am in the Harrisburg area so that may be a bit too far for you.
Member:
Equus75

Posted on Saturday, Dec 24, 2005 - 12:55 pm:

Francis,
My heart really goes out to you too. I can only imagine what pressure you're under having to care for your brother and try to find a suitable place for T.O. My thoughts are with you and I hope you find a healthier arrangement soon!
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 1:54 pm:

Update on T.O.

Dr. O and everyone who followed this post. I needed to give you a long overdue update. I moved T.O. to a new location. He has gone from rags to riches (so to speak). I moved him on the 28th of December. He is now about 25 minutes away, in the Tamaqua area for those that know Pa. He is halfway between where I live and Allentown. He is in a brand new facility, huge cathedral ceiling with sky lights. Very bright and airey. He is out every day, except in the worst weather for at least six hours. There are a large number of horses in two barns, he is in the newest. Board is not significantly different.

Each stall is 12 by 12 with rubber pads and just enough saw dust (I still hate it) to keep stall clean and easy to manage. Stall came with ball to keep him occupied and his own large mineral block. The nasal problem has cleared 99 percent, but still a trace left; he will ocassionally blow but right now he has a cold so it is hard to tell where one ends and the other starts.

DR. O; you were right there was some swelling of the nasal tissue it was not noticeable where he had been due to the dark conditions in barn. ONCE I moved him you could see some ever so slight rising on the outside of each nostril. That swelling is just about completely gone on his right side and totally gone on left. I just finished off the MSM for the heck of it, stayed away from bute as once I saw his new enviornment I figured fresh air and new clean surroundings with solve the problem,. which they pretty much have. I guess one tablet or even half would eliminate the last of the inflamation, but althought I am not adverse to using bute, and T.O. has always tolerated it well, I try to be a little cautious with it when I can.

Any way thanks for all of your interest. As I said T.O. is doing fine in new enviornment. Now the only issue left is buddy-ing him up with another horse. The owneres of the new place are very cautious about which horse goes with who. My new concern is that they expedite the process which seems to be going far to slow for me. T.O. has been alone now for about three months even though he is paddocked next to other horses, but he has always been a very social horse. he can be semi-dominant but only when food is involved and that is not an issue here, since he is hayed (the real stuff, not cubes) and feed in stall.
allthough they give them all a couple of leaves to keep them occupied in paddock. So now I am pushing to buddy him up as soon as possible. I am a firm believer in horses running together as nature intended. Obviously you don't want your horse with a rogue, but most horses work their way throug the Pecking order. As I said T.O. can be a little pushy with food involved, but he has never been a kicker. He is what I call a bulldozer rump biter. He just wade's in and gives a mild nipe, (not vicous tearing bite), this has goten him kicked a couple times, but then he has always established his position by intemidation,)no more physical) either one or two and has always gotten along with even five or six horses together in same medium sized paddock. He is now showing some signs of spookiness or edgeness around some of the other horses, so I am pushing to break that quick by pestering the owners to skick him with another horse. Him being isolated so long could be taking a toll which I want to stop NOW.

And as it turns out Mister T.O. hs now got a fan club of other horse owners at his new obode. I have had several offers to buy him but I could never part with him. He has got great personality, very laid back around people, good typical quarter horse confirmation, bright copper red coat with large blaze on face, and palimino colored mane and tail. Even the owners got instantly attached to him. id did have to promise one lady who was adamant about buying him that I would ckeck around Northern Va. were me and T.O. moved from to see what I can find in the way of similar. Turns out that one of his former stable mates and buddy is for sale. T.O. was boss over him but they got along great and "played" a lote. The horse is a real looker, (pretty boy) he has demeanar much like T.O. he has been used to rope but he is a little laid back and the owner things he has taken him to the highest level he can, without getting abusive (which he would not). So I am putting the lady who wants to buy T.O. on to him. This hore whos name is Peppi, is a nine or ten year old fully registered QH with papers and lineage. He is a 15.2 hand "in shape" dark chestnut, with three white socks (like SECRETARIAT) long mane and tail. I use to call him elvis because of the long main between his eyes. He will make a great horse so I hope this lady takes him. Besides him and T.O. can buddy up again.

Anyway sorry for the lenght but wanted to give you all an update. Thanks for all your inputs, and oh, bye the way the owners of the place where T.O. is now vaned him from where he was to his new Palacial estate. Jeez talk about rags to riches.

Thanks again. Oh, one comment regarding the post on do we teat our horses to well. The answere is probably yes. We have taken a species that has run wild for millenia, and have now made them totally dependant on us. But now that we have changed the species, we have an obligation to care for them. Although I am a firm believer in letting horses be horses when possible.

He is showing some sign of spoo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 8:18 pm:

What a great change for both your horse and you.
DrO
Member:
Miamoo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 24, 2006 - 11:20 am:

Sometimes owners are careful about who boarders are turned out with for liability issues. Even if someone took owners to court over an injury to a horse in their care and the owners are found not liable, they still have the court fees which are expensive.

Because of this the facility I keep horses at to ride in the winter does not allow the boarders horses to be turned out together unless both horses are owned by the same person.

Care, Custody and Control Insurance helps but is no insurance is perfect!

Ella :-)
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC