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  Discussion on EPSM Diet
Author Message
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 7:53 pm:

Hi Dr O,
I was looking for some info on carbs or starches in various hays. We have quite a good selection and normally I would just stick with the grass hay but I have noticed that the grass hay my local suppliers have is very seedy. I mean Lots of seeds. It actually has more seed than the rye orchard they have. Do you have any idea which would be lower. He is showing improvement on this diet but not alot. I am worried it is the grass seed(which he loves by the way).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 7:12 am:

You have to also take into account for the decrease in starches as the stems and leaves mature. Using the table in the article on forages and making the very rough assumption that the decrease in digestible energy is due to the change in digestible carbohydrates to nondigestible carbohydrates it appear that mature hay (that with seeds) has about a 11% decrease in easily digested carbohydrates. The actual percentage decrease may be a little greater as some of the easily digested carbohydrate is converted to digestible fiber. This carbohydrate does not add to the sugar load because it is first converted to fatty acids before absorption by the gi tract. This is explained in greater detail in the article.
DrO
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 12:04 pm:

I can't make a determination based on the article. I think my confusion is because I understood from Dr. Valentines site that the grain hays should be avoided. Now dont you define a grain hay by the presents of seeds? Therefore the more seeds, the more carbs? I understand that when a hay matures, it puts all its "energy " into the seed production. That is why the hay loses value. But, dosen't the nutrient go into the seed?
I think what you are saying is; avoid young hay. But how does that explain the high carb problem with the oat,wheat,rye hays?
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 1:17 pm:

Shelley,
I understand grain hay to come from grain, oats, barley, etc.
Grass hay comes from grass, Timothy,Brome, and so on. Many people will also call legume hay,Clover, Alfalfa- grass hay.
The more seeds in grass hay the better the quality.
I am not sure what you mean by young hay.
When hay that is cut too late the stalks become tough, unapatizing(sp) less nutritious; too early it will have less head (that is where the seeds are)too soft. That is the term used around here. This refers to the hay not providing lasting energy, perhaps because of too much water and nitrogen in the young plant.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 4:47 pm:

Whoa guys there is a lot of misstatements above.

First the grain hays are not the same as grass hays. Look at the size of the seeds of even what are called the "small grains" like millet. The seeds are hundreds or even thousands of times larger than grass seeds, and this increase is size is almost wholly starch. This has been achieved through selective breeding by man over the last thousand years.

Concerning what happens as a grass matures, the decrease in soluble carbohydrates in not because of the energy going to seed production but because as the stems and leaves mature the type of structural carbohydrate goes from easily digested polysaccharides to those that are not easily digested. It has to do with different ways the saccharide molecules are linked together to form long chains.

It is never correct to call legumes grasses because they are a plant with a central stem and leaves are attached with small twigs, they are not a grass. It is also not true that the more seeds the better the quality of the hay, at least if I understand you correctly. The seeds are formed as the plant matures and all nutrients, with the exception of roughage, go down in mature plants. Immature (young) plants, few stems and no seed heads, are easier to digest and contain more nutrients, and are more palatable to horses. There is a description of this and relative nutrients in the article.
DrO
Member:
Kasi

Posted on Friday, Feb 3, 2006 - 11:58 am:

There is an excellent website about forages at www.safergrass.org
Karen
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 11:02 am:

Thanks Karen, your right!
We should keep this in mind for the laminitis questions that come up.
Dr O, I am curious what you think about the basic message on this web site. To me, it is that hay is primarily intended for the dairy industry and milk production and it is not the best thing for horses.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 5:56 pm:

We have discussed this web site before Shelley but it has been a while and their have been some updates. I have fewer disagreements than before and yes sometimes it does seem to lack prespective for most of the horse population, but with respect to horses with Equine Metabolic SynDrOme and Cushings it is consistent with our articles in the topic Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis (see particularly the articles on EMS and Spring Grass) and Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders » Cushing's SynDrOme and Pituitary Tumors.

I do agree that hay is presented as a form of evil but from the perspective of folks who have EMS horses it is close to the truth. Back when I practiced full time I had half a dozen of these horses that I took care of for many years and the owners were always distressed when having to markedly limit pasture time during the growing season, would tend to ignore the advice after a long period of no problems only to have a recurrence of spring founder with their horses.
DrO
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