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Discussion on Urination in newborn foal
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 4:29 pm:
I have a healthy 16 hour old colt, nursing well, acts normal. He is "posturing" to urinate, but only a "dribble", if anything comes out. There is NOT any urine coming out of the umbilicus. My vet is not in until Monday. What do I do?
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 4:41 pm:
I would contact another vet. Monday would be too long if there is something wrong. It could be possible the urine is going into the abdominal area? Does that look like that is happening? Is the foal actually getting enough mares milk to create a normal amount of urine? I would take action right now. EO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 6:59 pm:
Gail, I second the above suggestion. Is the colt straining to urinate? If he is getting enough milk, he should be urinating by now. Has he passed the meconium? Does he seem to be "pooping" o.k.? I would be concerned about some kind of blockage if he's getting milk and everything else seems o.k. There's too much that can go wrong quickly. It would pay to have a vet check him.
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 7:35 pm:
Eo and Sara, thank you both for responding! I appreciate your support. Right now I am hoping that the situation is caused by the colt's penis remaining inside his sheath while he urinates. I just did observe a small stream of urine come out, and it looks normal. His penis seems to be hiding inside his sheath and my attempts to gently find it are not working. Anyways, I am HOPING this is the only problem since I am isolated for the time being (we are having a snow storm and the roads are blocked,not to mention my regular vet is out!). The baby is nursing well(mare has good supply of milk) and seems normal, poops great, sleeps and plays good, but I guess the next 48 hours will tell. I sure hope the snow stops soon......
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Member:
Thomboy
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 7:35 pm:
Gail, get him to the vet. This guy could very well have a ruptured bladder. One of my colt's had this problem 3 years ago and with quick diagnosis and surgery, he is now 3, riding like a pro, and an excellent young man. The rupture could be high in the bladder so that a little urine is getting to come out, but the majority may definitely be emtpying into the abdominal cavity.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 11:29 pm:
Gail, how are you doing? Watching the Olympics and thinking about you. Still snowing? If he is urinating that's excellent. But,needless to say, if you don't see his penis when he urinates you still need to have him seen as soon as you can. I know what it's like to be stranded by snow; been there, done that, for days at a time. Hope all is well with your little guy. (You are sure it's a colt? Right?? Just thought I'd check!
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 12:34 am:
As long as he is urinating, I wouldn't be overly concerned that his penis hasn't DrOpped down, sometimes they can take a few days. Our orphan did this for almost a week before I could get a vet to look at him. He was urinating fine. We had tried to get at it ourselves, albeit very gently, with no luck. The day the vet came, lo and behold, there it was, in all it's glory and no ill effects. Vet didn't have to do a thing. He is now a big, strapping yearling. EO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 12:53 am:
Good to know, EO. I've never had that happen.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:35 am:
If he continues to posture without producing urine this sounds like it has a good possibility of being a problem and waiting until the foal is sick before a diagnosis greatly decreases your chances with the foal. The fact that he produces small amounts of urine occasionally does not rule out the possibility of a ruptured bladder.
It does sound like you are in a tight spot, is there no way to get the mare and foal to the vet?
If this is the problem there is nothing you can do short of surgery to close the bladder. If the sheath is scalded you could try washing, drying, and some vaseline.
DrO
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:54 am:
GOOD NEWS!!! Thank you all for your support and advice!! The "missing penis" has been located and pointed in the right direction!!
EO-I had NEVER heard that the penis sometimes didn't DrOp down, that is good information to have. That may well have been my problem. I swear the first time I searched for it, it wasn't there-last night, I "found it" and pointed it towards the front(it was twisted in the sheath).I am happy to report that the stream of urine looks normal for a foal and there is no more posturing without results. Phew!!..
How often statistically does the bladder rupture? Does it occur in fillies very often?
Melissa, how much did the surgery cost then? Does anyone know what the percentage for success is for repairing a ruptured bladder? How does this compare with the success of the surgery to correct urine from exiting through the umbilicus?
Our snow has stopped and with luck we should be able to drive off our mountain in a day or so. The sun is out and life feels better!! I am absolutely terrified when my vet is not in town. There is no better feeling than seeing his truck arrive when there is an emergency!!
Gail
Thank you all for your responses!
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 11:51 am:
It doesn't happen very often, as we have foaled mares for 20 years and that was the first one that hadn't DrOpped down in just a couple of days.
We had used vaseline and so it was surprising that it hung up as long as it did. He had a good stream the whole time as it was at the opening, just couldn't get our fingers around it. Of course we might have been too intimidated too. I didn't want to hurt him. EO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 12:00 pm:
SO glad all is well! And, isn't the world beautiful on a crisp, sunny morning with the snow on the ground?! Especially, when the "storm" is over.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 12:03 pm:
Gail...I'm curious, what "mountain" do you live on? Or what part of the country? We used to live in the Sierra's which I loved, but which did present some challenges when it came to horse keeping.
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 2:48 pm:
Sara, We are in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Northern New Mexico. Our elevation is only 7000 feet, but to get into our place there are two steep hills which is a challenge during snow or ice. It does give us a good lung on a horse and we breed to race(TB's) so everything helps. It is just so nice when the storm is over and the sun is out!! Everything is more scarey at night or during a storm!!
We foal out about 30 mares per season and this is my first "hidden penis". The problem with horses is that no matter how long you have them, there is always something more to learn!!!
Gail
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 3:52 pm:
Gail, I'm sure you know the poem about "things that go bump in the night!"
Re: having horses: Isn't that the truth! I've been around them my entire life, raised them for 30 yrs. and am constantly humbled by how little I know.
We lived at 8000' in the Sierra's. The horses and I both always felt like we had wings on our heels when we were at or near sea level! I personally think the high altitude is good for people and horses. We're only at 6000'now, but have a cabin at 10,500' that we go to as much as possible.
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 5:34 pm:
I had a colt born last year with a ruptured bladder (we had to put him down, more problems than just the bladder), and the next foal born was also a colt and didn't DrOp his penis for 2 or 3 days (which is the colt pictured in my profile). I had my vet look at him and she wasn't worried and a couple of days later it appeared. I from what I understand a ruptured bladder is a colt problem that it is doesn't seem to happen with the fillies.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 7:14 pm:
Karen is correct about it being a boy problem and the incidence is pretty common I am afraid. Surgery is instituted before illness is pretty successful.
DrO
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 12:26 pm:
DrO
I need to know the scarey facts.....how common(percentage wise of foals born) is a ruptured bladder, how soon does the problem show itself, does the foal otherwise act normal or would there be be other signs of illness or weakness present before the owner noticed the lack of urination?
Does the foal sometimes urinate a small amount with a ruptured bladder, or is it none at all?
How common is this "hidden penis"? Is "dribbling" the sign of a hidden penis, or do they appear to have a normal urine stream? It seems that there is always one more "part" of a horse to worry about, just when you think you have worried about everything.........
Gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 6:44 pm:
I have never heard of nor seen a "hidden penis" Gail, I just assume you just did not find it the first time but it was always there.
I have never seen a particular percentage stated nor is there a typical time frame for symptoms. The reason is the tear can be vary in size and therefore the amount of leakage varies. A large tear and the foal is sick within a day or two a small might take 4 or 5 days, perhaps longer.
You do not diagnose problems however by looking at percentages and averages you diagnose them by looking for clinical signs, is there a problem?
DrO
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Member:
Mcgee
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 7:29 pm:
DrO,
No, thankfully there are no signs of any problems and I am grateful! Baby is nursing, peeing and playing, all with great gusto! I just always worry about birth defects and I guess I always hope to hear "low percentage" to make myself more confident.
Thanks,
Gail
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Member:
Thomboy
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 10:50 pm:
Gail,
2 years ago when my colt was born, he urinated what appeared to be normally immediately after birth. However, the next day, he appeared "not quite right". When the vet came out to do the passive immunity test, I asked what he thought and said to try an enema to make sure all the meconium passed. The next day, his little belly was a little bigger and he wasn't quite as playful, so I called my vet (who happened to be out of town, along with every other equine vet at a continuing education thingy). Without being able to see him and just going by my descriptions, he told me to get him to A&M immediately, as it sounded like a ruptured bladder. When I arrived at A&M, they were waiting, per my vet's request, and tapped his belly as soon as we arrived. Sure enough, full of urine. When they went into surgery, the tear was at the top of the bladder, which was why he was able to urinate semi-normally. They said if you were to have to have this problem, his was the best way to have it. They also stated that they have about 6 of these a year and all colts. One vet said that there is no known cause for it, but he had a theory that because colt's pelvic structures were typically smaller than fillies, and because foals are born with a full bladder, that if they were positioned just right during delivery that a contraction might cause it. He again reiterated that this was only his theory with absolutely no proof whatsoever.
Anyway, if Texas A&M only sees about 6 a year, then I would think the percentage is very low.
As far as them hiding their manhood, mine typically don't start being "flashers" for a couple of days after birth.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 7:16 am:
There are several problems with your analysis Melissa. First remember it is only boys, so that is not 6 out of the population of foals but out of only the boy foals. Second how many are either not diagnosed or don't go to surgery that have the problem?
I am not trying to throw a scare in here but the last thing I want is for folks who read this to not seek help because they think this problem is rare: it should always be a consideration in newborn male foals displaying posturing and poor urine production.
DrO
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Member:
Thomboy
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 9:29 am:
Sorry Dr. O. I was not trying to create an actual percentage, just a general picture of what information had been given to me by the biggest vet clinic here in Texas. You'd think after 4 or 5 years that I would know better than to post on your boards. I'm better off just reading everyone else's.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 8:41 pm:
No apology needed Melissa after all your thought may have been a very common thought. Maybe I have should have been clearer above that from a purely mathematical point of view this IS a low percentage problem, but that with a foal with the clinical signs Gail describes above that this is a common presentation. I am just trying to emphasize that if your new born baby boy foal is doing this it is nothing to fool around with with the hopes of saving another baby.
DrO
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