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Discussion on Anti-Colic remedies for sandy areas
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New Member:
Sailor7
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 10:06 am:
"The anti-colic properties have neither been proved or disproved. Feeding hot bran mashes probably makes the care taker feel good and the horse may enjoy the treat, but it probably does neither harm nor much good for the horse."
We live in the Sandhills area of our state. I am a new horse owner, and have continued to feed our horse what the previous owner fed him. Part of the horse's diet has been 1 cup of bran mixed in with water and his food every morning. Everyone here says that bran is a must because of all the sand. Some people feed Metamucil instead.
According to this article, it has not been proven that the bran is an anti-colic remedy. Are there other anti-colic remedies that are warranted for horses that live in a sandy area?
Thanks,
Donna
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 4:56 pm:
Mmmm I wonder...I live on an Island where all the water has a percentage of sand as it is rain forest i.e. rock with little soil and all the water comes from cenotes and wells hence the sand.
I always feed bran, in fact a third or their feed is bran, and in five years we've never had a colic, of course that goes hand in hand with worming every 2 moths, and yet the rest of the people here have what they call urine colic all the time! So my guess is that bran works, its fibre after all...clipart{happy}
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Member:
Muffi
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 10:49 pm:
I feed Rice Bran but not for Colic. I feed for the fat content and what it does to make their coats look really nice. I live in a dry dirt area (az desert) I put down rubber mats where they eat. cover the ground with them. and Sweep them off just before feeding twice a day. They get Grass Pellets with the rice bran and vitamins in the Morning and at nite and the Hay is kept in Buckets (large ones that hold about 1 1/2 flake) on the mats. They free feed on the hay so I keep a bunch out there. We wind up sweeping the dirty and soiled hay out to the arena for soft footing and mix it with the Shavings and DUST for their beds. I have had them here for two years and No incidents of colic for them - yet. also I do the Psylium add one week in 4 - that is standard here. it works for most of my horse neighbors too. but I swear by the mats and the AR routine of sweeping them at each feeding.
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Member:
Muffi
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 10:50 pm:
By the way Liliana - I have dove your Cenotes in Playa del Carmen area - one of the most Fastinating experiences in my life! Short of owning a horse that is.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 8:37 am:
Concerning sand colic Donna we have an article at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » Sand Colic that discusses management for this problem.
DrO
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 1:15 pm:
Muffi my husband dove some and was thrilled I am claustrophobic chicken who has not done it!
Are we talking about wheat bran or rice bran? I feed wheat bran to my horses.
Dr. O your call, could the effect be different, in your article it says that wheat bran has been used for a long time
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 7:17 am:
When we say "bran" wheat bran is traditional. Rice bran is a relatively new feedstuff but I am not sure the two would not be interchangable. I don't understand your last sentence, the effect for what?
DrO
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 11:23 am:
Sand colic is a problem in our area, Arizona. I did my own little experiment with a product called Trak Klenz. I, over a period of time, washed out a controlled weight of manure and measured for sand. This ensured I was getting a steady average and not an anomaly from one day. I administered the trak klenz treatment and washed out the same weight of manure and the amount of sand released with the Trak Klenz was shockingly impressive. I really recommend this product for obvious reasons.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 15, 2006 - 8:10 am:
What is in the Trak Klenz ilona?
DrO
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 2:45 pm:
Sorry Dr. O I have a habit of thinking half of what I say. What I meant was are they different as a feed product, I understood rice bran fattens the horse and wheat is more a laxative right?
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 5:00 pm:
Dr O, Here are the ingredients and application.
day 1 feed 1 lb
day 2 feed 2 lbs
day 3 feed 3 lbs
day 4 feed 4 lbs
day 5 feed 5 lbs
Feed where the horse can graze on the pellets, either through the day or through the night.
Reduce normal feed according to ration dose; eg: remove at least 3 lbs on day 3.
INGREDIENTS:
Psyllium Husk
Grain by-products
Alfalfa
Molasses
Vitamins
Minerals
NUTRIENT ANALYSIS:
Energy 1400 cal/kg
Protein 8.0%
Lysine 0.61%
Methionine 0.2%
Meths+Cys 0.31%
Magnesium 0.3%
Zinc 230mg/kg
Iron 320mg/kg
Manganese 190mg/kg
Copper 80mg/kg
Selenium 1.0mg/kg
Iodine 1.0mg/kg
Cobalt 0.5mg/kg
Vitamin A 1800 iu/kg
Vitamin D 2100 iu/kg
" E 400 iu/kg
" K3 11mg/kg
" B1 17mg/kg
" B2 23mg/kg
" B6 9mg/kg
" B12 70ug/kg
Biotin 0.3mg/kg
D-Calcium Pantothenate 37mg/kg
Folic Acid 10mg/kg
Niacin 104mg/kg
I hope this is helpful
Ilona
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 6:47 am:
It depend Liliana. Some commercial rice bran supplements does not have the oils extracted and contains more energy density than grains however neither appears to have important laxative properties. This is because the horses diet already has large amounts of fiber. You should always check the nutrient profile on a product to know if it is a source of extra calories, extra fiber, etc...
Ilona this is a pretty standard psyllium product and it is important to realize products like this do not appear to increase the rate of sand passage in good studies. You may have found more sand at particular times but you probably did not control for sand consumption and what is the normal variation is passage daily. For more on this see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » Sand Colic.
DrO
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Member:
Sonoita
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 1:52 pm:
I feed Equi-aid and feed my hay in buckets. I used to live in Florida and I did the same. I live in Colorado now and do not hear about sand colic as much. The Equi-aide is fed for 7 days a month. I did feed bran in Florida but it did not work as well.
Hope this helps.
Happy Trails,
Wanda
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 5:14 pm:
Thank u Dr. O
Liliana
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 9:16 pm:
This past week another horse near my farm died of sand colic. I believe the study which showed psyllium ineffective was flawed in that the sand was put into the (mustang) horses' guts surgically rather than over a gradual time as occurs in a truly sandy environment. The Vets where I live mostly still suggest and use psyllium as part of a sand-removal program -- and that is because their experience with their clients who use this product shows good results.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 7:04 am:
Perhaps Vicki, but you are selectively choosing criticisms to support your position. Perhaps your experiences are from differential intake as you don't control for it. It is important to remember the work did not say the sand did not clear from the bowel while psyllium was fed, in fact just the opposite it cleared fairly quickly however it was not significantly faster than with no psyllium. My point has always been, if you rely on psyllium to keep your horses clear and don't make important management adjustments you do so at the risk of life to your horse, as apparently someone near your farm found.
DrO
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 9:26 am:
Dr. O,
I just had my spring check-up for my horses. The vet listens to the bowel and stomach sounds, and says he can usually tell if there is sand inside. Just wondering what your experience is in that regard.
Losing a horse to colic is so sad always, and we just recently lost one horse that was only 16 years old. I do not believe sand was involved in that case.
Thanks,
Lilo
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 11:19 am:
My vets have said that on occasion also, lilo. I guess its the way the sand rubs in the gut. I was also told there is always going to be some kind of sand moving thru the gut. and keeping it moving is the key. Because you can't stop it totally from coming in. Even my beet pulp has sand in it.
I used to do the pysllium, metamucil, the oils in feed, sand clear, etc... and i have had some really bad colics. mostly sand... but now its just trying to be proactive in her care. I don't think there is any thing on the market that can prevent it, just diligence on the owners part.
and there are just some things you can't stop. our grass grows in sand. our paddocks are all sand. Sand blows into the water buckets. Sand is everywhere. So sometimes changing your managment practices isn't always the issue, too, dr. O. I do what is physically possible to do. feed from hay bags, water the sand when dry, keep the horse moving around as much as possible. etc.
Over the years, living in florida. worrying about sand colic, enteroliths, gas colic and all the other things.... The ONLY thing i have found to be anti - colic remedy is that of being proactive in her care, meaning, i now watch closely what and where she eats. how much she walks a day. I check all hays, i smell all feeds, i monitor water daily. I add electrolytes to it on hot days. i do a sand check periodically (water in the glove). i check manure piles periodically. (which everyone must do while mucking). I give flax as additive only when i see her stools getting smaller, or less manure piles. Plus its good for their coats, has a small nutrient value more so than pysllium. etc. I keep her wormed more than recommended.
I read that pysillium can even make matters worse, because it forces the gut to work harder pulling all the necessary water away from other essential body functions out of where it needs to go and the pysllium forces the absorption differently.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 1:18 pm:
When my horses have semi-annual vaccinations, etc., I sometimes have the Vet. listen for the sand. If detected in one of them, their advice has been to do a few extra days of psyllium "sanding" beyond the usual seven per month. I know these Vets are aware of the study, but they nevertheless continue to suggest its use. Like joj, I find it impossible to keep the sand out of the horses, even though I have lots of pasture. My farm is on an old Florida sand hill, and the grass grows up out of pure sand. Those horse owners who get into the MOST trouble with sand colic seem to be people who do not have very much pasture, or very poor pasture. Good pasture maintenance is probably an important issue with regard to preventing sand colics. Also, feeding plenty of forage is something that I think is important to help move the sand through. I wish I dared to stop using the psyllium, but I guess I am following the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach, as well as following what is common veterinary advice in my area. And like Ilona, I have taken the time to monitor the outflow of the sand and have found it to be moving out in increased amounts as the week of "sanding" progresses. Also, the manure balls seem to have a more sticky feeling during the use of the psyllium. I have considered not using the psyllium during the months the grass is best, but so far haven't dared to.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 7:16 am:
Concerning the diagnosis of sand accumulations with auscultation, we discuss this technique in the article Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » Sand Colic. Fortunately I live in an area where sand is not a problem so have not had any experience with this.
It is a standing order on Horseadvice.com that if you feel you are doing something beneficial, and I cannot find any harm in it, you should continue it no matter what I say. My strength here is to present the scientific evidence, hopefully with a strong dose of experience and common sense. It is possible that the small amount of work on this has reached an incorrect conclusion or it may be using this product is just making folks feel better with what is a difficult situation. But right now the scientific work on psyllium suggests that this is largely if not totally a management issue. On the other side in a healthy horse with free access to water I don't think it will do harm to give it except if you depend on it alone to fix a sand problem. That is my concern.
DrO
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New Member:
Cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 11:45 am:
We live in central/east texas. EVERYONE here has horses, most just out in their pasture. No one worries much about worming problems, sand colic, etc., and I have never really heard of anyone losing any horses. We rotate wormers, very close to the schedule you recommend, give them free access to pasture, give them hay when needed, and One and Only if the hay is not "horse quality". We grain them with crimped oats usually 4 times a week. I add oil and a coat supplement, as well as apple cider vinegar when they are grained. If they trample the grass, such as in our corral or smaller pens, it's nothing but sand. Otherwise, its just grass (or weeds  ). Is this something I should worry about? We've never had colic, founder, or any other illness in our horses with the exception of a filly that came to us with barn flu.
We have a new mare and her filly that stay in the coral during the night, and out on the 2 acres around it during the day. The coral is nothing but sand, and they will be "living" there for another 2-3 weeks until the new barn is finished. They get their grain every day, as well as all the One and Only they can eat, in the coral.
It seems the more I try to educate myself about the best care for my horses, the more it seems they are so fragile that I could kill them at any moment! Am I the only one who feels this way?!?! I thought horses were generally pretty tough.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 3:24 pm:
Michelle, a stout horse in a familiar environment is probably used to those things, hence most horses are just fine. like yours. Mine is a born and bred florida horse but was a stalled horse most of her life. I do think the change from in to out helped but also put more sand in her by being in the environment more. So we had a few colics. BUt, if your horses and those around you are doing fine, have no issues with it than i wouldn't change a thing. Cause you are doing everything right. In one year, i have seen 4 horses go down with colic, and never get up. I have seen 3 enteroliths the size of a large grapefruit, and more than one inside their guts.And these horses were all stalled in the same place where i used to live.
I always wondered about new horses from different areas that come to a new area, i bet have alot of problems. making them more predisposed to these problems till their bodies adjust or the owners change their regimen.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 11:41 pm:
Yes, joj, my horses moved from rocks to sand in 1997. Never in all my years with horses ( since the 60's ) had I had any experience with horses and sand. The man that had cared for my horses for nearly 20 years moved from N. Jersey to S. Jersey - but ALAS!!!! The move was in vain! He couldn't lose us! We sent our horses with him, and would spend weekends with him in his new house until we bought the land next door and built our own farm! ( He keeps calling us the boarders from hell and threatening to move to Kentucky in the middle of the night - we tell him that he can run but he can't hide!)
The farm he bought had 6 boarders already. He brought his two and I brought my 2. 3 out of the four got sand colic in the first six months. We had never heard of sand colic or psyllium. We now all keep the regimen of psyllium for 7 days each month, BUT, we also laid down 12 rubber mats under each hay rack ( They come in AM and PM to eat and then are sent back out to their large paddocks for hay. ) Stray pieces of hay now fall on the rubber mats where the horses can just nibble them up instead of rooting through the sand - the mats are blown clean twice a day with a leaf blower during manure clean up. The mats tend to stay in place and can be pushed back together easily enough. Now horses are not rooting through the sand for stray pieces of hay. We've never had another sand colic but we still test the manure for sand every few months and feed psyllium the first 7 days of each month.
Although I think the mats made the most difference, I'd be terrified to give up the psyllium.
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New Member:
Cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Apr 21, 2006 - 1:02 pm:
I am just concerned about the mare and her baby. By the time our newest barn in completed, they will have been in the sandy pen for a month. As a precaution, we are going to treat them, and the vet is coming just to give us a few tips, and a good exam.
We came across the pair when we went to a registered show and sale, just to watch and dream, b/c those horses are out of the price range of 2 teachers. When I saw them, I fell in love. Lindy, the mare, is finished in Western Pleasure and Trail. The baby was just 2 months. They were almost last to be offered, and it was a rainy, nasty night and we were practically the last ones left. My husband bid, just to make me feel better! God was smiling; the owner neglected to place a minimum, much to EVERYONE'S shock, and they are now mine!!! After researching their breeding when I registered the baby, we discovered our baby, now named Dixon's Dash of Cayenne, has champions on top and bottom!! The man that owned them remarried, sold all his horses, and is taking his new wife cross country in an RV. SOOO, to make a long story short, not only is this our first experience with a young horse, she is a very valuable horse. She will be our first experience in showing. We want to do this right, so I am now a reading fanatic, and driving my vet and our trainer nuts with questions.
Any and ALL suggestions are so greatly appreciated. Believe me, I am taking notes.
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Member:
Johnsonl
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Posted on Friday, Apr 21, 2006 - 3:44 pm:
Hi all….I’ve been following the colic threads with interest. I haven’t written in a long time, but some may recall I’d been dealing with my foundered TB-cross, Buckeye for two years. He’s pasture sound/healthy, but a big pet. So I finally took the plunge, saved $$ and bought a beautiful 16h, 5-yr old, registered TWH gelding. Gorgeous, healthy, sweet, stunningly beautiful chestnut I bought in TN (excellent health history, and vetted thoroughly before I bought him) and had shipped down to FL. I had him vet-checked upon his arrival, and he was mildly dehydrated but that was rectified quickly. I did everything right, according to my local vets, and the expert vets at the University of Gainesville clinic where I had to put him down exactly 3 weeks and 2 days from the time he arrived. Gas colic was the diagnosis. Talk about bizarre and thoroughly heartbreaking. Poor “General” was in shock, purple gums, ruptured bowel etc. by the time I got him there, 8 hours after the local vet came, tubed him (guessing mild sand colic since General came from out of state). Gen didn’t improve after tubing, worsened rapidly…vet couldn’t get back until 2 hours later and called Gainesville to make arrangements for admittance. I had to beg somebody to take us up there, since I didn’t have a trailer at the time. From the time that General was seen locally, until I had to make that awful decision to end his suffering, it was exactly 8 hours. I wondered: why me and my horses? First my beloved Buckeye founders, I can finally afford to get another two years later, and then he’s dead in 3 weeks after suffering horribly. I bought another wonderful coming-3-yr-old chestnut TWH gelding, Commander, and I’ve had him for 4 months now. I’m starting to relax a little, but all I can say is that colic and founder often have no rhyme or reason. Neither Buckeye’s founder nor General’s colic could be explained by anyone. At the risk of sounding crude, I’ve filed it under the category of “you-know-what happens”. I’ve seen folks throw their horses out in sand pits down here, never worm, never give products to prevent/treat sand colics, etc. and their horses thrive. I take great care of my horses, give them the best vet care etc. and look what happened. My advice to you, my fellow horse lovers, is just do the best you can in care, seek professional advice, and relax knowing you’ve done the best you can. And should you experience tragedy, remember some things are beyond our control, move on and love another, and treasure the time you did have with your dear equine friend. My most important pieces of advice – HAVE YOUR OWN TRAILER and INSURE YOUR HORSE! In the event of medical emergencies like I had with General, even an hour could make a difference. I made a promise that before I bought another horse, I’d have my own rig for pulling and insurance. I stuck to that. Now I continue to pray every day for the health of my pasture pet, Buckeye, and my new baby, Commander. I wish you all the best with your dear horses. Take care, Lori J.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 22, 2006 - 9:43 pm:
Oh Lori, How very heartbreaking. It's wonderful that you found the strength and determination to pick yourself up and get right back on. Enjoy your Commander - you certainly deserve to!
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 3:56 pm:
Some folks who practice poor horse/safety management can be lucky for many years, and eventually the conditions catch up with some of them. I can't stand to even think about something bad happening to one of my horses due to negligent management, though I try not to go overboard because I certainly think worry that results in over-reaction can be harmful too. Thanks Dr. O, and members for the interesting comments. I've been out of town and am getting caught up on my HA reading! I'm sorry to hear about your hard luck, Lori and wish you happier times with Commander.
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Member:
Johnsonl
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 12:59 pm:
Thanks Lee and Vicki! I appreciate your good wishes concerning my new baby, Commander! I have to say that when I was going through Buckeye's founder, members of horseadvice.com and Dr. O gave me lots of comfort, encouragement, and good advice. It made the tough times easier. I was too heartbroken over losing General to gas colic, that I don't think I even logged on during that awful time, for many weeks. Now that I have Commander, I believe I value each and every day with my horses that much more, just knowing how fragile they truly are. They are NOT tough like many people seem to think! It's easy to look at their size and strength and think they are, but because of our domestication of them and the associated unnatural things we do to them, such as feeding 2 or 3 times a day, stalling them, lack of exercise etc. we unwittingly subject them to health issues not endured by those in the wild. But, as concerned owners we do the best we can to keep them as healthy as possible. I love to read the posts on this site...it warms my heart that there are so many many folks out there who, like me, put so much effort into keeping our equine friends safe and content. Happy trails to you all! Lori
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New Member:
Cgby1
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 5:56 pm:
Hi All,I have no problem with sand but years ago I bought property and started keeping my horses on it. I bought the metal feeders that hang on the fence because thats what everyone seemed to use. My horses hated them, pulled the hay out and threw it on the ground. I had a pony that vacuumed his stall and would colic at least once a year. A friend had a different feeder made from a 55 gallon plastic barrel turned on its side. I made one to try and my horses loved it. All my horses left the hay inside. With a hole cut just large enough to fit a flake of hay and hung low they can push the hay around and it stays in. I started making them and selling them by word of mouth. My vet liked them so much that he sent a patient who was colicing all the time to me. I sold them to a friend who raised conformation baby's to show as well as boarding stables. You can feed anything you want in them, hay, grain, cubes as well as small salt blocks. You can make them yourselves with a jigsaw and drill.You should look for food grade barrels. I used soda concentrate barrels and washed them out thoroughly. I round the corners of the hole so that it doesn't crack and put drainage holes in each end.I smooth all the edges. You should hang it low so that it can't be rolled. The horse will be able to lift it's head and see without banging it. They also will not have dust falling into their eyes or breathing it in. When I have excessively dusty hay I drag a hose over and wash it down. We have high winds in southern California and its no problem. It's been 15 years and I have moved and no longer sell them. I still have my original feeders and they are in great condition. I hope this will help. Cynthia
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 9:08 pm:
Cynthia, thanx so much...do you have a photo of the barrel that you can post? I will be the first to make one!! The best I could come up with is feeders made from the natural red-rock in our area held with concrete and with drainage holes at the the junction where the side meets the 'floor'. I have lined the bottom with rubber stall mats cut to size. The horses seem to think that they are part of the landscape and for some reason don't take the hay out of the 'feeders' I have constructed. They are an integral part of their corral.
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New Member:
Cgby1
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:27 pm:
Hi Ilona, I am very new to horse advice and I don't know how to add a picture. If you take a piece of fabric,(vinyl works good) cut a 22 inch square and then round off the corners. Lay your barrel on its side and center the template. Use a marker to draw a line around the template. Save your template for all your feeders. If you have a circular saw ( also known as a skill saw) you can cut a starter hole for the jig saw but be careful. You need to make sure that the barrel can't move. Otherwise you can use a large drill bit. After you cut out the hole use the drill to add drainage holes where the side meets the 'floor'. Then drill 2 holes a few inches from the corners of the hole about 3 inches apart so that you can run some rope or baling twine through to hang you feeder. I use a file to smooth the edges of the hole. If you have pipe corrals you would hang the feeder from the second rail from the ground and it will rest against the bottom rail. You may find that the horses will play with the feeder or tell you its time for dinner. Then you may want to drill a couple more holes so that you can tie it to the bottom rail. My Arab gelding liked to do that! Where ever you place it, it should be able to drain and stay put or they will roll it all over the pen. If you can tell me how to add a picture I will be happy to do so with my arab and yearling filly eating their breakfast. Cynthia
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 7:00 am:
Hello Cynthia,
Thank you for taking the time to spread your experiences and knowledge. I agree an image would help. To post a image you use the "Upload Attachment" button below at the bottom of the posting form. Just push it and follow the rules. For more details on how this is done see, News & Help » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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