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  Discussion on Dogs and horses
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Member:
Sailor7

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 8:22 am:

We live out in the country, but it is rapidly being developed. People move out here and the first thing they do is get multiple dogs and let them roam free. We have talked with the neighbors, and they are polite but firm about not confining their dogs. Now we have packs running around. Our county is pretty lame about doing anything about it. It is so frustrating!

What type of fence would be best for our horse? We have an 8 year old gelding who does fine with electric tape. But I worry that dogs will get in one day when we are not home. Last night a chow was sitting outside the fence barking at the horse. I shooed it off, but he didn't seem too afraid of me.

We plan to get one more horse soon. My daughter would like a mare and wants to breed her once so she can learn about reproduction, training a foal, etc. I am guessing that we would have to do something more secure for the foal. But perhaps that could be a temporary fix that we could take down eventually?

I am at a loss as to which type of fence to get.
People keep telling me to stick with the electric tape and shoot a pellet gun to scare away the dogs. The no-climb with top board is what we are looking at, but I have to admit I don't like the looks of the fence. Our house is well-maintained and attractive and the no-climb doesn't seem like it will enhance it. The cost is going to be over $10,000 installed by a local fence guy.

I have thought about board or electric braid fencing, but again, the dog problem.

Another problem is that we have not been able to get anyone to install the no-climb and top board. Thus, we keep re-visiting easier to install options so we can do it ourselves. The tape was so easy to put up.

I would love to hear from experienced horse owners how you made your decision about fencing.
Thanks!
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 8:47 am:

We had no-climb fencing where we use to live. I didn't find it an unattractive fence AND - both my horses and dogs were safe. It IS expensive - but the up-keep is minor. We didn't have boards around the top - used electric rope to keep the horses from leaning on it. I've never seen an electric fence that would keep dogs in or out. If they have a heavy coat they will be insulated from the shock.
Cheryl
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 10:52 am:

I breed and train dogs for law enforcement and also have 10 horses. Just to make matters worse I am a stickler for eye-candy. I have no-climb fencing (ordered from Ramm Fence), sunk into the ground 12", and white top-board and posts. It looks very attractive. The dogs can't get in and I know the fencing will be good for several decades as it is no-rust. I am at an advantage as I speak Spanish and there is much available labor here (albeit controversial) so my installation costs were minimal, comparatively. I strongly recommend this fencing design if their are roaming dogs. Unpleasant and avoidable accidents can happen with intruding dogs. Not the least of which is horses that start to fear dogs.
I wouldn't use a pellet gun, you could unwittingly put out an eye. However a strong water-gun works wonders. It has the surprise effect, without the harm. Some are very far-reaching. I would get the strongest you can find, desensitize your horses from its use in their proximity. Each and every time you are able to, wet an an intruding dog, and soon you will be the dog-free zone in the neighbourhood, and even out riding. Dogs don't like receiving water this way, its stings and it is unpleasantly wet. They don't develop any negative aggressive traits from this. Just good solid learning. I have to train my dogs to be around horses in a non-aggressive, non-intrusive manner. I am able to accomplish this with this method. You want to keep them away altogether. This method will be highly effective if consistently applied at the start. It's so unfortunate that neighbours are so un-informed. You may want to tell them that horses are prone to kicking and the result can be deadly, or worse, maiming. Some horses are dog aggressive, and will actively stomp a dog, very horrible consequences, because when dogs submit they roll on their back, offer their belly, and the aggressing dog backs off, horses do not, and what you have is a belly- mauled dog. I bet if you tell the dog owners of this detail they may be more motivated to pay attention.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 3:36 pm:

Hi, doesn't it amaze you how people think they are doing the right thing by letting their dogs be "free" to roam the country side. They do not understand that it is their job, and their responsibility, to protect their pets from the world they brought them into! Enough soap box! You can not change the neighbors, so you will have to protect your own. Especially if you have a little chihuahua, be careful with that little precious one. We live on an acreage and have a fenced in yard around our house for our dogs. We also have a boarding kennel, even though I instruct customers to not let their dogs run off leash, we have some who are "so well trained" they don't need a leash! We were on a tight budget when fencing, but wanted to be sure customers dogs did not run under the fence into the horse yard. Dusty, our old guy, would have kicked them into tomorrow! So we put round fence post every 8-10 feet, notched out the top, and put a top rail of 2x6. Painted all of it white, and then just bought some inexpensive chain link fence, 4' and ran it along the entire fence. My horses are not hard on fences and it works great when those "well trained" customers go flying up to check out the "BIG DOGS" in the horse yard! We also ran a single strand electric wire on the inside of the 2x6 to keep the horses from leaning on the fence. It has held up for years!
Just a thought.
suz
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 3:40 pm:

Also, with the wooden posts, if it becomes necessary you could mount a strand of electric, right about nose level on the outside of the fence, if the dogs charge at your fence. A zap on the nose can be a good deterrent that they will survive, as opposed to the kick and stomp, that they surely will not!
suz
Member:
Alden

Posted on Saturday, Apr 15, 2006 - 4:50 pm:

Pick a fence that's good for your horses. Then have county pick up the dogs. If the county won't do it then I'd suggest a good high velocity rifle. I absolutely won't allow dogs to harass my stock and I don't warn the neighbors. I keep the '06 in the barn just for this problem.

I don't think they'll miss the dogs much if their running loose in packs anyhow.

Good day,
Alden (HTG)
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Apr 15, 2006 - 9:44 pm:

With all due respect Alden, I am not sure it is the dogs' fault that they are running free. The best of my 4 dogs had a 22 shell removed from a rib, because he was a roamer before he picked us for a home. Someone also took a baseball bat to his head, broke some teeth, all because his previous owners were too ignorant to be good stewards. You can catch them, live trap them, deliver them to a shelter, if the animal control won't do their job, but disposing of a problem in such a manner as a gunshot is a little extreme. There are humane ways to protect all of God's creatures! Just my dog behaviorist opinion!
suz
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Saturday, Apr 15, 2006 - 10:43 pm:

Alden, with respect, punishing the victim (the dog) is never a good solution because the perpetrator (dog owner) is not motivated to change their behavior, particularly if they do not now their dog has been shot; or, do you deliver the body to the owner? I would assume you are a sharp shooter, as shooting a moving target is extremely difficult, never mind with the accuracy to kill. I do hope you have not injured and left dogs to suffer an agonizing death because of irresponsible owners.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Sunday, Apr 16, 2006 - 2:08 am:

I'm gonna have to agree with alden on this one. I live in an area that is now becoming more burbs, but many packs have run thru the neighborhood in the past when it was more "countrified". And these animals are NOT just roaming, as a group they take on that pack hunt mentality... Most to these dogs are hog dogs, or deer dogs out because their owners don't keep them in.

I have goats, pigs, chickens, and i am not willing to take a chance. If they come around once without coming into the property, fine. but anymore than that, and sorry, i would shoot to kill. Same thing with a gator. or a human for that matter....

A water pistol isn't going to cut it. Calling animal control is not helping, there are more dogs and not enough animal controllers. so, if the owners are stupid enough to let the dogs roam. And they do, and they kill. I'm sorry but then i will too.

And you're right susan its not the dogs fault. And a shame. But i will NOT lose an animal because its not NICE to shoot another one.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 16, 2006 - 8:47 am:

I also agree with Alden. Here in deer country, hunters shoot any dog "running deer" and if people can't keep their dogs on their own property, too bad. I have even told our neighbors if my dog is on your property, please shoot over their heads to scare them off. (All of my dogs are terrified of guns, so that would do it)

We have a neighbor, a relative, who walks by every morning, and sometimes evenings, and lets her dog(s) run into everyone's yards, into the pastures, marking their spots as they go. Sometimes she has as many as 3 dogs with her, and it causes our 2 dogs to go nuts chasing them out of our yard. Talking to her has done no good, and when our dogs started following her, she sprayed them with something, not sure if is was hair spray or what!! She claims to know that the dogs are being "territorial"...but, but...that doesn't seem to impress upon her that she needs to keep her dogs out of our territory!!!

So, all we have been able to do is take pictures of them running on our land. (I have pictures of their cows running through our yard also, trampling newly planted trees) I simply want proof that they do come up here in the event something happens. I am sure that if she got bit, we would see a lawsuit for our dogs going on the road. Or if my one horse, the "dog stomper" would hurt on of the dogs, same thing.

This person is "someone" in the community, if you know what I mean, and above the law apparently. And we all know dealing with neighbors is tricky, worse if they are relatives.

It's too bad that people can't keep their dogs home and have to cause such headaches. I don't understand how it can be so hard to do. We have another neighbor whose dog comes to play with ours, but our (outside) dog doesn't go to his house, so dogs can be taught! And when we are not home, one dog is in the house, one in a kennel.

Another tidbit of info: If you have a farm insurance policy, and your horses are covered on it, about the only time it will pay for horses deaths is if they die from weather related injuries, fire, or a pack of dogs/wolves taking them down.

So take pictures of these dogs if they are on you property, and if they are bothering your horses or other critters. To protect yourself.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 3:08 am:

I have to go with Alden also. It seems to me that once a dog attacks and tastes blood, the die is cast. A dear friend had a small ( 5 ) herd of sheep that were all hand raised and very dear pets. A new neighbor allowed his German Shepherds to roam free. They were good dogs, but the sheep excited them and one night they tore up three of them. There were huge vet bills, but they recovered. The owner was told that the dogs would be shot if found on the property again. Unfortunately, they were not found the night they broke into the sheep pen and tore up 3 of the five. My friend could do nothing but hold his old friends while they died. He confronted the neighbor right away ( 2 AM ). The neighbor could say nothing. His dogs were covered in the sheep's blood.

Today, years later, in a new area, he's got new neighbors with a pit bull that "just keeps getting away from them". The dog discovered that chasing my friends' Aracana chickens was loads of fun. My friend told the owners that if he caught the dog chasing the chickens again, he'd kill it. Unfortunately, my friend was not home when the dog got loose and tore 13 Aracana chickens ( they lay green eggs ) to pieces. How did he know it was that dog? When he went to confront the owner, there was a dead chicken on the neighbor's back porch.

Sorry, but now that I've lived through that, MY animals come FIRST. My animals get the best of care, and I don't allow them freedom to roam on the property of others'. My allegiance is to MY animals, not a roaming dog that loves to hurt them, run them and bite them. I'll always choose MY animals that I love, over ANY animal that comes on my property to attack them.....and yes, we ARE very good shots.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 9:00 am:

Lee,

Those are very sad stories, but unfortunately these kinds of things happen all the time. And dogs even tear people to pieces sometimes so it is a situation that is a problem everywhere.

It's funny, but people think it's o.k. to let there dogs run, but have you ever had neighbors get a little upset if your horses run through their yard?

This all boils down to people having dogs, and not having time for them, or properly training and/or containing them. I once read that it's considered a cruel crime to let your dogs roam vs keeping them in a kennel. They are safer in the kennel!!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 12:46 pm:

The best part about this forum are all the wonderful varied opinions that we are all comfortable sharing. Although, I have no problem eliminating vicious dogs, just as I think we should eliminate vicious people, however, to just put a blanket shooting on every dog who wanders on the property is not a solution. Unless you are going to shoot the irresponsible owners, they are just going to replace the dog you shot. Unfortunately I think the saying " A good fence makes a good neighbor" is the only solution. I have a lap chicken also, they are safely behind a critter free fence. WE have 13 acres that are completely fenced. It is a lot of work to insure the safety of my pets, but I can only control my space, and that is how I choose to keep my animals safe. I am sure if I had an visiting animal inclined to attack, I would find a way to eliminate him, but the chow that the original post stated, was sitting by the fence. If you can not capture the dog, or it trys to attack, then you would have no choice but to dispose of it. However, if the owner had to drive over everyday to pick up his delinquent non violent dog, that you chained to a tree, or had to pay a fine to get them out of jail. You may find a way to change human behavior. If you do not work on the humans, you will keep having the dog problem! You can not be there every moment to shoot the dogs, so I am just saying that their needs to be constructive solutions to protecting our own!
Respectfully
suz
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 2:31 pm:

I am a very very responsible dog owner and even with the best precautions and training the hyper lab Rocky has gotten out a few times. Often with me on his tail (no pun intended) trying to catch him but sometimes that has made him run faster.
It breaks me heart to know that if we lived on a farm he might meet a horrible fate at the hands of a neighbor.
For those of you who shoot and ask questions later is it for any dog that wanders onto the property at any time? If he looks like a house pet that has escaped do you try to take a look at the dog tags first knowing that sometimes even house dogs escape?

Corinne
Member:
Erika

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 5:29 pm:

Try the bear training trick--put an electric wire near dog level, smear it with bacon grease or peanut butter. Invite the dogs over for a lick.
No need to shoot.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 6:16 pm:

I didn't get the impression that anyone posting here was shooting every dog that came on their land. I think talking with owners is the first thing to do. And living in a rural area, there should be some give and take, and hopefully the neighbors respect your pets and you respect theirs. I don't think it takes long to figure out which dog belongs to whom. And which neighbors have a dog, but don't love the dog enough to keep them safely at home.

And yea, Corinne, my little Jack Russel can run like a bandit too, and all I can do is follow and wait to catch up with him, hoping that no one shoots him, or he gets under a tire. That's part of life with a hyper dog.

I wouldn't want to have to fence in my 22 acres just to make sure no dog gets in it, or to keep my pets/livestock in. (would really stink for hunting season!!!) I don't like the idea of making my home a little fortress!! But I can see it would have advantages of course if one can afford to do that. And true Susan, you can only control your space, good point.
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 6:39 pm:

Whooo that's a relief Angie. If a dog gets out near our barn it's pretty easy to figure out who belongs where and we all always being them back home or keep them safe while waiting for the farmers to notice they were gone and come get them.
One thing is for sure....even if we all don't see eye to eye on how to deal with wild dogs or neighbor dogs running loose we can all start by each one of us promoting spaying and neutering to fellow dog owners so the pet population doesn't get out of control to begin with.
Our local humane society has found a nifty way to encourage that since they can't afford to fix every animal that comes through.....those who adopt need to fix their pets and send DVM proof of doing so within a month of adoption as it's part of the adoption contract. Those who violate the contract can have their animals confiscated or face legal action.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 8:28 pm:

I don't mean to imply that anyone on this site would enjoy shooting animals, I just think that unless you have a sharpshooter-manned tree stand, guarding over any domestic animals, 24/7, we have no choice but to at least securely fence the immediate area that house our pets, horses, goats or chickens. Otherwise, you can not possibly guarantee the safety of your animals, especially if you live in an area where there are known offenders.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 8:30 pm:

P,S, Erika what a great idea with the bear training trick. That should send them yelping home, or at least to someone elses property!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 3:48 am:

No, Susan, dogs are not shot on sight. I can't count how many goofy dopes I've taken in to my house while the police helped to locate the owners. As for fences - my friend is the Fence Master! Not only does he fence all his livestock, cattle, goats, chickens and horses ( 1 donkey ), but in the two farms he has owned, he DOUBLE fences. The outside fence is no-climb and board with electric at top and down low. Inside that fence, the animals all have separate specie paddocks, and separate fenced grazing areas. The chickens have a large coop and fenced yard. He believes in "fail safe" fencing - if his animals break out of one fence, there is always a second fence to stop them. Unfortunately, the shepherds jumped the 5' fences at his old farm ( which kept out the black bears he so feared, but not the neighbor's "pets" ), and the pit bull, was so determined to get his chickens, dug a huge hole under the fence and tore apart the chicken wire on the coop. None of these dogs were "vicious". They were in it for the hunt. But my first responsibility is to MY livestock who are penned up like sitting ducks. And it's easy to tell the difference between a happy-go-lucky stray and an obsessed hunter.
We also go to extreme lengths to get rid of coyotes, possum, raccoons and woodchucks. Really, it's just being pragmatic.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 8:18 am:

Yikes! At that point I sure hope your friend got some justice from the authorities. He obviously did his part.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 9:28 am:

Loose dogs are a really tough problem. We love dogs, but need to protect our animals. We have 50 acres, all of it fenced. Even so, we have stray dogs, always more than one, come through every once in a while. The older horses can take care of themselves, but when we have foals I would have no second thoughts about using a gun if I saw a dog harrassing our animals. I would try and shoot to frighten the dog away, but sometimes, especially if there are several dogs, a dog won't be frightened off and acts like they don't even hear the gun shot. So, what can you do? An animal would be maimed or dead before the sheriff or animal control got out here.

On the other hand, we had someone, without our knowledge, running their sheep on our land (just woke up one a.m. and there they all were!) The sheeps' owners shot one of our dogs who was on his own land near the stock pond, and not bothering the sheep. Seems a dog had killed a lamb during the night (our dogs were all in) and so the guy shot the first dog he saw. Luckily, I heard the shot and rescued the dog before he was killed; but he was shot. I don't blame the man for protecting his sheep, but in this case I felt he was "jumping the gun" a bit!
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 18, 2006 - 10:16 am:

Sounds like in some of these cases it's not the dogs who need shooting. Hmmmm.....

Our humane society spays/neuters all critters before you adopt them. And this year the local vets all teamed up and offered reduced rates for anyone bringing their cats or dogs in. I think it was $25.00 across the board.

And just FYI, I love dogs and (some) cats. People, well,............
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 1:55 am:

Susan: You know, both times my friend was just demoralized. He raised his sheep and incubated his chickens and loved them dearly. He let the owners really have it, but was reluctant to involve the authorities. His first wife was dying when the sheep got it, and, 8 yrs later, his second wife was hospitalized after a very bad fall from her horse during competition. Nothing like getting gut punched when you're down.
Although we tease him without mercy about his fencing habits ( we've helped him with a lot of it), I must say he's never had a breakout. I have. But thank heavens my horses just ran next door to his farm....and found that they could not break in.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Lee, I am sure that fellow was glad when that black cloud moved on. I guess when it comes right down to it . . . SH__ Happens. We can all only be expected to do our very best and hope the universe co-operates.
suz
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