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Discussion on Understanding overlapping supplement ingredients
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 11:32 am:
An upper level dressage stallion is being supplemented with Equine Corta-Flx Rx solution and his rider feels this has really helped his movement and comfort. Looking at the label, the analysis says: glycine (min) 2%, glutamine (min) 2%, glucuronic acid (min) 1%, aspartic acid (min) 1%, hyaluronic acid (min) 40mg/15ml, lysine (min) 1%, proline (min) 0.62%, glutamic acid (min) 0.6%, arginine (min) 0.42%, threonine (min) 0.16%.
The ingredient statement lists: Water, sorbitol, dextrose, mucopolysaccharides (source of glucoronic and hyaluronic acids), glycine, l-glutamine, aspartic acid, l-lysine, l-proline, condensed extracted glutamic acid fermentation product, l-arginine, l-threonine, l-tyrosine, animal protein products, manganese sulfate, pyridoxine hyDrOchloride, copper sulfate, sulfur, ascorbic acid, l-serine, l-valine, l-histidine, l-isoleucine, l-alanine, xanthan gum, sodium benzoate (a preservative), yucca schidigera extract (a natural flavoring agent), natural and artificial flavors.
It has been suggested she add Succeed Digestive Conditioning Program to his diet.
Analysis of it is: crude protein (min) 8.32%, l-threonine (min) 1.75%, l-glutamine (min) 1.40%, crude fat (min) 44.72%, crude fiber (max) 3.28%, beta-glucan 4%.
Ingredients are listed as: oat oil, oat flour, sunflower oil, yeast extract, l-threonine, l-glutamine, guar gum.
Whew. You can imagine this is a friend for me to type all that up! My questions are:
Is there too much overlap of the ingredients which may cause a problem?
Is there enough difference in the ingredients to perhaps affect a positive change?
Any other comments re what some of the l- ingredients might be for?
She thinks the horse needs more, um, oomph in his work and the first supplement is to help with physical joint comfort (she notices the improvement when he is on it) and the second is to help with digestive health.
He is being scoped for ulcers later this month.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts/warnings/etc.
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 7:03 am:
Hello Chris,
Most of the overlapped ingredients are amino acids and are found in any foodstuff with protein, so do not represent a problem. However the 2 products are fundamentally different in their main composition. While the first is primarily sugars and mucopolydaccarides the second is a high fat supplement.
I am uncertain what type change your friend is looking for but Corta-flex does have work to support its claims of improving mildly lame horses with DJD while the fat in the "Digestive Conditioning" aid will increase the caloric density of the horses diet. I think "Digestive Conditioning" is a bit of a stretch for a description but I have long supported the replacement of part of the starch in a horses diet with fat.
The "L" designation is a stereo-chemical thing and in these labels refers to the amino-acids (protein building blocks). AA are built around a carbon atom which attaches to 4 other atoms. With this configuration even though you use the exact same atoms you can actually create 2 different compounds depending on the physical arrangement of the attaching atoms. These 2 different arrangements of the same atoms are referred to as the L (left) and D (right) configuration.
The important thing nutritionally is that naturally formed amino-acids are all just one configuration (are they all L?) and the body can only use the natural configuration. Amino-acids formed in a laboratory are a mixture of the 2.
I guess the lesson here is you can make your label look TECHNICALLY WOW by listing all the amino-acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals, even if it is just vegetable oil and oats.
DrO
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:51 am:
Thanks for a great answer. Thanks for helping to sort through the foo foo dust one more time.
As a side note, I tried the Corta-flx Rx on my coming 23 yo and she felt so good she seemed to have a flare up in her rf impar ligament starting up, so I took her off of it. Vet was out for spring shots last night and the coming 6 yo was a model citizen. The old mare was unruly, broke away and stampeded the farm twice and was just wild and wooly. His comment, "Does my heart good to see the old girl kick up her heels ... I don't think she needs any supplements." She has also become a very easy keeper and gets almost no concentrate.
Ha! Semi retirement seems to suit her. I'll let her show me how it is done.
Cheers.
Chris
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:27 pm:
I've got an old boy (20-year old paint) who does extremely well on a continual loading dose of Corta-Flx. On a maintenance dose he becomes lame. His conformation is not the best, and he worked very hard roping and cutting in his early life before he came to me. But it takes a loading dose to maintain him at a comfortable level.
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Member:
Gafarm
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 12:19 am:
Vicki,
The reason your old boy does better on the loading dose is because the maintenance dose does not provide enough MSM. When I started my mare on the Corta-Flx I totally cut out her MSM because it is supposed to be in the solution already. She started having problems within a few days and her ERU flared up also. I put her on the maintenance dose of the Corta-Flx and added 1/2 dose of the MSM and she does great on that. No more swelling problems unless she really has been racing around in the pasture with friends and even then it's not bad, just a little stocky. She is 30 years old this year and has been on this for the past 5 years. As Dr. O said, it does list the contents to give you that "WOW" but doesn't tell you how much of each one is in every dose.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 8:45 am:
Hello Donald,
I disagree with the reason you give Vicki. The evidence that oral MSM is helpful with such inflammatory conditions is poor. On the other hand their is evidence that recommended doses of chonDrOitin and glucosamine may be low, see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments for more on this. When evaluating treatments for such conditions for arthritis and RU you have to be very careful because these conditions naturally wax and wane. However in fairness I must reveal there is one very recent scientific paper that supports MSM:
Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2006 Mar;14(3):286-94. Epub 2005 Nov 23.
Efficacy of methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) in osteoarthritis pain of the knee: a pilot clinical trial.
Kim LS, Axelrod LJ, Howard P, Buratovich N, Waters RF.
Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine and Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ 85282, USA. l.kim@scnm.edu
OBJECTIVE: Osteoarthritis (OA) is the most common form of arthritis and the second most common cause of long-term disability among middle-aged and older adults in the United States. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a popular dietary supplement used as a single agent and in combination with other nutrients, and purported to be beneficial for arthritis. However, there is paucity of evidence to support the use of MSM. METHODS: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was conducted. Fifty men and women, 40-76 years of age with knee OA pain were enrolled in an outpatient medical center. Intervention was MSM 3g or placebo twice a day for 12 weeks (6g/day total). Outcomes included the Western Ontario and McMaster University Osteoarthritis Index visual analogue scale (WOMAC), patient and physician global assessments (disease status, response to therapy), and SF-36 (overall health-related quality of life). RESULTS: Compared to placebo, MSM produced significant decreases in WOMAC pain and physical function impairment (P<0.05). No notable changes were found in WOMAC stiffness and aggregated total symptoms scores. MSM also produced improvement in performing activities of daily living when compared to placebo on the SF-36 evaluation (P<0.05). CONCLUSION: MSM (3g twice a day) improved symptoms of pain and physical function during the short intervention without major adverse events. The benefits and safety of MSM in managing OA and long-term use cannot be confirmed from this pilot trial, but its potential clinical application is examined. Underlying mechanisms of action and need for further investigation of MSM are discussed.
This investigation is a bit of a dilemma to me. First, it did not find a improvement in total aggregate arthritis scores yet finds some improvement in individual components: does that mean some aspects worsened or were the improvements of small that when aggregated they were lost in all the tests that did not demonstrate improvement. Second the institute that conducted the study comes with a naturopathic point of view. If I had a nickel for every study such institutes produced that turned out biased and later overturned... That said this was an accepted paper by a reputable journal so we will watch for more evidence. The standing order here is if you really think it helps you should ignore my obviously poor advice but I will continue trying to keep other people from being...fooled.
 DrO
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 7:57 pm:
Thanks Donald and Dr. O. I bought a bucket of MSM on the recommendation of my accupressure/holistic advisor but have not given any extra yet. My old boy does so well on the loading dose of Corta-Flx, that I feel I should just stick with what is working for him. From all I can learn, the MSM must be given over a long term before positive results can be expected. Personally, I bel;ieve it may help many horses, but I prefer to go cautiously before introducing anything new.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 7:53 am:
Vicki, how much is the loading dose for Corta-Flx liquid? It doesn't mention it on the bottle, so I've only ever used the normal amount they give. I'm thinking maybe I should go for the loading dose too.
Lynn
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jun 9, 2006 - 12:11 pm:
LL (Lynn): The loading dose would be two of the measures daily. Sorry to be slow in replying -- just got back on-line after a lightning strike. Right now I'm giving the one horse two measures daily of the pellets, but have also used the liquid and gave a full measure in the morning and evening feeding.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 8:04 am:
Thanks Vicki: think I'll give the loading dose a try.
Hope nothing but your internet connection was damaged by the lightnng ...
Lynn
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 12:46 pm:
Thanks, Lynn -- all else is fine. I hope the loading dose works as well for your horse as it does for mine! With the pellets or powder I've seen big changes in about 8 days (they claim 10), and with the liquid you may get faster results.
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