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  Discussion on A new hay discussion - economics in hay buying
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Member:
Kbarnes

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 12:52 pm:

I'd like to start a discussion on the 'economics' of buying and feeding hay.


I am extremely interested in how other horse owners, who have between 5 - 15 horses manage their hay buying.

I am particularly interested in hay that is grown in my local region (North Carolina) but everyone is welcome to contribute ;-)

On a very local level (less than 15 miles) I have access and a business relationship (years of experience buying from) 3 growers of coastal bermuda (square barn kept), 1 grower of fescue (limited amount of shelter square bales, tarp covered round bales.)

I have a more distant contact (55 mile one way trip) with an orchard hay producer (limited amount of square bales but mass produces 1000 pound round bales that are barn kept).

I have access to local feed stores who offer other varieties, with a mark up (not a good choice for multiple horses and a boarding business) - and some hay brokers (they ship the hay, don't have quite as much mark up but are a good distance away from me).

Many of my boarders think the best hay is timothy. It is not grown locally and is often shipped in so the cost is higher. Some times the quality is poor as it is VERY stemmy, and not at all soft.

Many people will not feed coastal bermuda fearing impaction colic (mostly just based on the fact you say 'coastal hay' with out ever knowing the analysis of the hay in question).

Fescue has issues with pregnant mares (but feed a part of a hay ration is it other wise an economical and acceptable choice?).

I'm trying to gather information to make my hay buying more efficient - so the horses get the best they can and my business is working economically. And this is a GREAT time of year to be pondering this (as the cutting begins!).


I personally do not have the ability to store a lot of hay (aprox 200 square bales of hay - and aprox 6- 8 round bales), and I also do not have the type of hauling set up to travel long distances and move a heavy amount of hay (about 80 square bales at a time, or 2 800 - 1,000 pound round bales).

I've always 'thought' that in average weather, for a horse that is not in heavy work and is a fairly reasonable 'keeper' AND may have access to some sort of pasture (a few hours a day most of the year) that 1.5% of their body weight in hay a day is a good starting point.

Thinking economics - shipping hay, storing the hay (after all if you can't store it to protect it, what is the sense in spending good money on good hay?) - what are ways to compromise (such as feeding commercial feeds that are labled 'complete feeds' - beet pulp - cubed hay - chaff or bagged forage) to help satisfy the digestive tracks needs and the horses need to chew.

I know there are no 'hard fast rules' on diet - even in the United States various regions work with what the local market produces - I just thought I'd start a fresh conversation on the topic of hay.

:-) I look forward an updated conversation on this, and to reading the responses!
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Friday, Jun 9, 2006 - 4:06 pm:

OOOO--one of my favorite topics.

Here in Southeast VA, we have access to lots of fescue, orchard grass, and alfalfa...that is what is normally grown locally. There are plenty of individual small hay farmers, and I am always adding a new contact to my list or purging one...I only buy at the feed store in an absolute emergency as the markup is ridiculous.

My preference is always orchard grass...but regarding your comment on timothy, ANY hay can be stemmy or of poor quality. And there's nothing wrong with fescue either...it's usually the "grass" in the "grass mix" found in our area. Except for the endophyte problem, it's a good choice, plenty of protein if cut and baled properly and at the right time. Of course, you can compare hay preferences to whether you're a Ford of Chevy person....people are adamant about what they like. (Maybe we should ask our horses? Mine "seem" to prefer the orchard and timothy...of course, they'd rather have alfalfa than anything else, but they just don't need it...)

Regarding economics...buying in bulk is almost always your best bet...but if storage is limited it's kind of a moot point. We began dealing with a hay supplier in Syracuse, NY last fall and had 700 bales shipped to us on a semi. It was terrific hay--a timothy/grass mix, soft, green, smelled great, about 40 lb bales--and cost $4.35 a bale. For this area at that time of year, it was an excellent price. (Virginia had had yet another off hay year and it was hard to find it for under $5 a bale.) If you can purchase it that way, you can really save $$. Another way to save is to find hay growers who charge less per bale if you pick it up in the field, usually about .50 less per bale, sometimes more. OR, get together with a group of friends and go in on a truckload together, and stock 200 at a time. Usually that amount gets me through the cold months (with 3...but I wasn't boarding anyone last year so this year I'll plan differently).

I have never considered feeding anything other than hay to satisfy my horses' forage requirements. I can always find it, and they love it...it seems such a treasured part of their routine that I'd hate to start messing around with it, to say nothing of the fact that they are all very healthy with great condition and coats.

I spend a lot of time online developing new hay contacts and reading about trends/production/etc. I subscribe to the ehay weekly newsletter and visit the local USDA site periodically to see who has it for sale. I check the Virginia hay auction often to see what hay is going for and though I've never atually bought hay there, it is a good idea if you can carry enough to make it worth your while. There is tons of info (and hay!) to be had!
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 8:49 am:

Terri, I'm eager to check out your ehay site. I buy from local farmers for around $3.50 to $4.50 a bale, and $35 for five-foot round bales of alfalfa/grass mix. Trouble is I can't find one farmer that does both kinds of bales so I don't buy much of either. Makes me last on the delivery list usually.
I really hate unloading and stacking hay! So I probably pay more but it is worth it not to itch for days after!
Member:
Kbarnes

Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 10:56 am:

I am open to any kind of hay really, as long as it is 'clean' and not flat out contradictory to horses.

I too use locally grown fescue - know when NOT to feed it to what mares - and though I have read 'theory' that it may inhibit a horses ability to cool down after exercise, I know I am not working race horses or high end eventers or endurance horses - and really my fescue use is never more than 50% of the hay they consume.

In our area bermuda coastal is what is abundant - it is grown locally (very locally), so 50% of my hay fed is coastal (square or round bales).

I love round bales - they really have taken a lot of labor off my hands. I don't have the machinery to move them once I get them to my place so I have to 'store' them in the pastures on pallets with tarps - and cord them off with temporary electric fencing that I remove when I want the horses to eat them. Typically I still keep them tarped as they eat them and try (when it it works out) to cover them completely if I know rain is coming thru.

Last season a man brought me a HAY TUNNEL for my round bales. NC State is using them - they are heavy duty 'rubber maid' type plastic covers that snap around the round bales. They keep most the saturating weather, and sun, off of the bales. And if you put the round bale in just right, with the dirty flat side DOWN, they eat the good stuff and will eventually leave the bad stuff in the hay tunnel, where you can drag it off and easily dispose of it. My only gripe is that it won't hold my big 1200 pound bales of orchard!

Square hay is so hard for me to store. I can put up about 125 bales but no matter HOW I seem to store it (tarps on the walls, pallets, etc) by the end of the season my last bales always start to smell musty - so quite frankly I am afraid to put away any more than that for fear of it getting musty.

ANyone have storage tips? My barn is only 5 years old, it is an 'open' shed row but the roof extends 5 ft off the back of hte stalls with a 12 ft isleway in front of the stalls. I've hung tarps on the walls on the inside, put tarps down on the floor then put on pallets. I dunno.
New Member:
Barbju

Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 11:08 am:

I can only say I envy you all. I am in California where we spend $14.00 a bale for alfalfa. I run a boarding facility and currently have 19 horses here. You can imagine my feed bills.
Member:
Amara

Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 2:39 pm:

i'm envious of you too... i live in texas, where it used to be hay was cheap and plentiful... but with the severe DrOught last year and what looks to be another dry year this year, hay is expensive...around the north texas area 1st cut hay is $6/sq bale on up...in barn, but no help supplied....round bales are $60 on up... i'm driving about 5 hrs each way tomorrow to get a real good deal in east texas-$4.25/sq bale (60+lb bales)...guess they've had more rain there... the feed stores are charging about $100/round bale (2 years ago i was buying at $45)... i have access to store about 100 bales, but with my 2 horses and some pasturage, that should get me thru...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 11:13 pm:

$14/bale for alfalfa?!! Is that 3 wire bales (about 135 lbs) or just 2 wire? Guess I'll not complain. We're at $120/ton delivered; and we have about 30 acres in grass/alfalfa/oat hay of our own. I'd be out of business fast at the prices you're paying in California!! You must be in Southern Cal?
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 9:51 am:

Sara we pay that in N. CA as well.... in the off season... I buy direct from the grower.. he USED to be a good source and fair price... well developers came in bought out his property so he gets right now $400,000. a year till they develop then the lump sum of MILLIONS.. so he does not really care anymore IF we buy from him or not and has raised his prices to $10.00 a bail.. That is still cheaper then feed stores.. but not by much this time of year.. all tho the feed is GREAT...

I have a question re Rye hay.. Is it higher in sugar then say orchard grass? I have a Pony that i hate to feed the grass/ alfalfa, she does not need the calories and was thinking of feeding her Rye IF its less in protien , sugar& calories..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 11:25 am:

Wow! I really envy all of you. I am in central Florida. Our situation is similar to CA. Florida only grows coastal and peanut hay up near the Georgia border. Coastal is $5-6 a bale and peanut hay is $9-$10 a bale. We do feed some coastal if we can find really good quality. But because of the colic problem we always feed something else too.

Peanut hay (has nothing to do with peanuts) is kind of a strange looking hay, but it has a good phos/calcium balance and the horses love it. So we do feed a good bit of it. However, it is hard to feed because the good stuff is very leafy and falls apart easily - so you have to feed it out of a wheel barrow. And often the bales aren't very heavy.

If you want to buy anything else it has to be shipped in. Because this is such a big horse area there is always a lot of choice, but the prices are very high.

The biggest problem here is the humidity - it is almost impossible to store hay for any length of time. If we try to store hay (covered in the barn) for more than 2 weeks it molds. So that leaves out the possibility for buying hay in bulk for a better price.

For a bad mixed hay you spend about $9/bale. By bad I mean a stemmy mix of timothy and alfalfa. For quality mixed hay you spend $13 and up. These are regular sized (70lbs) bales.

Two weeks ago I bought a 110 pound bale (3 string) of straight orchard grass. It was beautiful and green - it was from Oregon (I think.) It was $27.75!!!! And my horse wasn't wild about it. He messed around in it a good bit. If he really doesn't like it he will root around in it for anything he considers edible and leave the rest in a pile in front of his stall door.


Most of our horses hate timothy (too chewy.) The love the softer grass - like an orchard grass. They especially love an orchard grass/alfalfa mix.

Recently we have been getting hay from a broker in Canada. The quality has been hit and miss and the price is still around $12/bale.

I don't think there is any substitute for feeding hay. Nothing satisfies the need to graze and chew like hay. I try to feed several different kinds and very little grain.
Member:
Gailkin

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006 - 3:08 pm:

Ann, I'm in No. Calif. too. Rye hay is very high in sugar. My horses love it but I won't feed it to them because of the carbs. I mostly feed meadow grass hay, but can be hard to find good hay. Some people sell orchard grass as meadow grass but my horses have always hated orchard grass and they are normally very good eaters even of not the greatest quality hay. I now have a fantastic source for meadow grass hay, not sprayed and very good price unlike the $13 or so in the feed stores. If you let me know where you are in CA, it might be worth it to you to go there. I travel 4 1/2 hours for a load but feel it is well worth it. Great quality and price about $120 a ton which is less than $7 per large 3-string 90+ pound bale. He also grows and sells grass/alfalfa and straight alfalfa. When you buy from the grower, you know exactly what cutting, etc. you are getting. Most feed stores around here tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Gail
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006 - 3:42 pm:

Thanks Gail, that is what i thought that Rye was high in sugar.. Won't feed that to the pony either.. LOL.. We are in the Sacramento region.. I have two good growers I buy from, the one i mentioned above and another one that owns hay property in Oregon and also owns a truck and transfer business , so he bails hay up way North and trucks in to sell here.. His prices are really not bad considering he is trucking it in.. Where are you located..

On the first day God created horses on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006 - 4:40 pm:

Up here in the Canadian portion of the PNW, local grass hay from feedstores or hay dealers goes for around $7-$8 per square bale (50-60 lb bales), straight timothy runs around $12-$14 per 75-80 lb bale, and straight alfalfa for $14-$15 per 80 lb bale. Delivery and stacking is an additional few bucks per load. These prices tend to remain stable regardless of the season.

Alternatively, you can buy good quality local grass hay directly off the farmers for around $5 per 40-50 lb bale however you have to pick up and stack yourself. First cut tends to be a little cheaper if it's a dry spring and they get a good early cut. However the allure of saving a few bucks by picking up and stacking bales myself has long since waned so I'm strictly a feedstore client nowadays.

My horses have access to good pasture for 12-14 hours/day for around 10 months of the year so even though they are all working fairly hard, my hay bills for at least the spring, summer and fall months are minimal. However the few months of the year when they are pulled off the fields are tough on the pocketbook. A big horse in heavy work like Warwick will munch through a minimum of 35 lbs of hay/day during those months and he has a distinct preference for alfalfa! I estimate it makes up around one third of his daily hay intake. Thankfully all my younger horses are restricted to local grass hay as their workloads don't yet compare to his. During the months they are off pasture, I estimate they each go through 20 lbs of local grass hay every day.

My boarders do self-board so are responsible for buying and feeding themselves. They tend to feed far more grain and less hay than I do but that's their choice and as they are nice women who pay their board on time, keep clean stalls and respect my property, I keep my mouth shut when the discussion turns to feeding horses!
Member:
Tweeter

Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 2:20 pm:

Hi all:
Ok I'm a little late on this discussion but was wondering if any other members are in PA and if so are you finding it hard to find good hay this season. We are in Bucks County PA and the local guys are all trying to sell hay (1st cutting) that was made in July. The hay is brown and does not smell sweet. We have been shopping for the past month and so far have only found so-so grass/timothy hay for premium price $230 to 245 ton. My regular supplier received a rude wake up call from me when I made him come get the 150 bale delivery he attempted just a couple of weeks ago. The hay was made late and was musty looked like straw so the horses treated it like straw and pooped on it!I finally located some very nice timothy hay today at $225 a ton after driving and checking out bale after bale. I was just wondering if any other PA horse owners were having the same problem.
Kathy
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 12:37 am:

Hi, Kathy, We raise hay in NJ and this year was very tricky. Most of the other growers I know around here had a troublesome first cutting. The weather was dry this spring, and at cutting time, the rains came. We were lucky enough to take a chance at cutting during a very "iffy" period in May, and it worked out. Due to the dry spring, our yield was low, but the hay was soft and good. Those that missed that window, either took a chance later and lost it, or let it go and cut late...getting harsh stemmy hay. Everyone is cutting again now, so there should be some nice stuff coming soon. But again, some areas have been very dry here in NJ, and some have flooded.....go figure.
Member:
Sonoita

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 12:42 pm:

Hay All,
Colorado is about $7.50 to 8 a bail for brome and alf or timothy and alf. Bales weigh about 50 to 60 lbs. We have to buy during growing season or we pay a lot more. so we have to store about 10 to twelve tons at a time otherwise you are stuck paying extra. Regular grass is over 8.00 if you can get it. Most suppliers go to Montana, Wy or Kansas for the hay. But we have finally cooled off some and we are getting rain. we will see how that helps for next season.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 2:27 pm:

Hay ya'll,
We raise Brome and Lespadesa hay in Missouri. I was wondering what everyone else was paying for hay, (But I was afraid to ask). I am lucky that we have a 40 acre brome and a 20 acre Lespedeza hay field and I don't have to find or pay for hay. I saw 2nd cut alfalfa for $4.99 a bail at the Home and Farm store, which means it will be $3.50 in the field.
Member:
Tweeter

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 3:52 pm:

Hay to everyone:
It amazes me how the prices vary depending on where you are. Its funny that PA is 10th in the country for producing hay...that would make you think that prices would be reasonable. Its pretty bad when hay is more expensive than grain and bedding. I remember when I was a kid we paid .25 per bale and I'm not all that old (well at least I don't think so.
Member:
Tpmiller

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 4:27 pm:

Kathy, we're near Hershey PA.

We're going down to New Holland sale next week, hoping a lot of second cutting will come in being done this week, dampening prices a bit.

Friend of mine gets hay from Graterford state prison, her brother is a guard there.
Member:
Tweeter

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 5:18 pm:

Timothy:
According to the Lancaster Farmer from last week the local hay sales are showing not bad prices. Low of $95 per ton mixed hay and high of 180 with a average of 155-160 per ton. The problem for me with going to the sale is how to get it home. Its only me and my husband and he thinks if "it does not start with a key forget it"! So the thought of unloading more than 25 bales of hay into the barn by myself is not a happy one. Someone did tell me that some of the people at the hay sale will deliver and stack in the barn for $1.50 per mile which would not be bad. We are less than 60 miles to the New Holland sale so no big deal. Let me know how you make out it would be interesting.
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