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Discussion on Balance
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 4:43 pm:
I need thoughts on how balanced these feet are.
Thank you Katrina
left front before and after
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 4:52 pm:
Right foot before and after
I had a couple of issues with uneven toe wearing and unbalance. what do you think now of the balance. Does the left need to taken down more. It still looks a little uneven too me. Keep in mind he is only into 4 -5 months barefoot and his soles are rock hard. His walls are still thin that will take another 5-6 months.
Katrina
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 5:00 pm:
It's hard to tell in photographs, Katrina, but it looks from the inside toe as though the horse may place a bit more weight to the outside of the hoof from looking at the first picture. In the second picture, it looks as though the outside of the toe is longer. I would have taken more off the front of the foot. You can take off the toe right up to the white line (and some woule say right INto the white line.)
A view looking across the base of the foot from heel to toe will give more idea of the levelness of the bottom of the foot. I would not have cut the frog as it already looks healthy in the first picture.
How long has this horse been barefoot and what breed are we looking at? The walls seem thin, so I'm guessing a Thoroughbred. If the horse has been barefoot for a long time, I think I would take off more of the quarters and mustang roll the edges more from the top . . . so the quarters don't chip up on gravel.
Basically, it looks like a good foot and a lot more symetrical than many others I've seen. How often do you do the trimming, or is this hoof on a horse that you can maintain on your own from day to day?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 5:12 pm:
Oooo! Sorry . . . Thought you were done with the photos.
On this right foot, are we standing outside the right leg and looking down?
If so, it looks as if the horse stands to the INside of the right foot . . . with the flaring going to the outside. In the finished photo, again, it will help for us to see the plane of the foot from back to front, but from the angle that is shown, it still looks as though the outside of the hoof flares. If this is the first time a barefoot trimmer has worked on the horse, then it is good not to make the corrections too radically.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 5:16 pm:
Geesh, Katrina,
The whole time I was typing, I never saw your last post on the site. Sorry. It answers some questions that I asked in my posts.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 5:49 pm:
Thanks Holly, The same guy has been trimming since I went back to barefoot. He is not aggressive because of our terrain. He is starting out I am not sure how long he has been doing this but is almost certified. He was great today when I showed him where I thought more should come off etc, I showed him where I thought the balance was not that great. I asked him to take off a little more in certain areas. I felt bad telling him what to do but he was great with it. Yes he does flare a little on all his feet. I have never trimmed but I know how I want them to look. I will have to try and get some pictures from the front and side if I can find level ground. Thank you so much for your thoughts, sometimes I feel like I expect too much. Maybe I should just do it ,but it looks like tto much hard work and I am scared of messing up.
I really like this guy and want his buisness too succeed.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 6:14 pm:
Holly I forgot to say I agree with your thoughts he is an Arabian who was barefoot his whole life, until I was talked into shoes by knowledgable people saying he will never handle the rocky mountains we ride on, he was not doing to great at being barefoot because he had a farrier trim a paddock trim, too much sole etc etc. Since going back to barefoot Even though the balance is a little off he has never had a lame step on the rockiest of rocks I just have a tiny problem of hoof wall chipping as he bangs his hoof wall on larger rocks/ boulders. That will hopefully change as the new hoof grows down and the wall gets thicker and we get a handle on the flares. My new trimmer is great in the fact that he will admit if his trimming made the balance not so great. We will be able to tell in 4 weeks if his foot goes back to how it was in the way it was wearing.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 7:52 pm:
It would be great to have photo updates before and after every trim, Katrina. I know it's a pain to make sure you have your camera, and then a pain to download and upload the photos, but I'd be really interested.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 9:08 pm:
I too would be interested in a pre and post trim photographic record. I am currently doing the research on the benefits of barefoot, studying the hoof etc and going to Pete Ramey clinic in September all in preparation for transitioning my horses to barefoot. Where I live the ground is extremely hard and rocky. I am watching this thread with great interest.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 6:22 am:
I would be happy to take before and after photos while he is transitioning. I was going to do it for myself for records. I love having second opinions. You guys are great and it helps when I have doubts or am second guessing something. Now to find flat ground for side and front photos for the next 4 week trim.
Thank you Katrina
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 11:16 am:
I will be watching too, Katrina .
I made a decision for my gelding to go shoeless and it has been 12 days so far. I also purchased a rubber mat for him to stand on when being worked on by the barefoot trimmer. Maybe you could get a rubber mat for that and would help keep the foot clean for photos.
Have you ever looked at the possibility of hoof boots for those rocky rides while you are transitioning?
I always tell my farrier before he trims that I don't want pretty feet, just feet that work.
When is your next trim? Maybe we could swap some photos for comparison.
Good Luck Katrina,
Susan B.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
Hi Susan, good luck with your guy.
I have old macs which I love. I bought them years ago when he was ouchy and barefoot. I love them nothing will make these boots come off, easy on easy off.
I used them the first 2 months. He is in an extremlily rocky pasture (Best thing for a barefoot horse)for at least 8 hours a day so his soles toughened up pretty fast. I prefer to ride without the boots if he is not sore as the more I ride on rocks the tougher the sole and stronger the hoof will be. If he chips more than I like (his walls are still thin) then I will put boots back on til next trim. I was just out on our rockiest of areas barefoot and he was trimmed yesterday and he was great actually better than shoes because now he watchs his foot placement. not a lame step.
That would be great swaping photos. Next trim is in 4 weeks. He gets done every 4 weeks untill his new hoof has grown 8-12 months more like 8 months they are growing so fast and can almost watch them I even rode a long ride on the tar rode tryingto wear them down. I am really lucky I have the perfect environment for barefoot were as some would say its not possible were I live. II am showing them all.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 9:34 am:
Cristos, Could you give your thoughts on these hoofs. I know he slightly flares and his walls are very thin anything else.
Thanks Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 12:51 pm:
They look very healthy, Katrina.
From that point on, I always try to resist the temptation of trimming for a perfect looking, symmetrical bottom of the hoof. I'd pay more attention to the alignment of the whole leg.
A slight deviation from a "perfect hoof" may serve the horse's conformation well, think twice before straightening things all level and "ideal".
Hooves are alive, they change every week. A little unbalance here and there is to be noted, so that it doesn't get out of hand, but it's nothing to worry about if the horse is not racing.
It has happened several times that I corrected a slight misalignment, and with the first wet/dry circle the hoof resulted slightly misaligned the opposite way. Don't torture yourself over insignificant details !
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 1:34 pm:
Thanks Christos,
They are as tough as rocks. I will take note of not trying to make them perfect to look at. His angle is perfect but Its hard to get a good picture on our uneven ground.I feel better. Thank you
Katrina
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 7:32 am:
Feburary 27 2007 photos
https://community.webshots.com/album/557929855QqEcCm
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 9:01 am:
Thanks for posting, katrina. I am in a hurry this a.m. and should be out of the house right now, but wanted to give my very quick assessment of some of the photos.
The first one, dated Feb. 28, looks as though the hoof wall is longer on the side to the left in the photo. The horse must put more weight on the outside of the hoof. If this foot was left to grow, it seems that it might flare to the inside and throw the horse's weight to the outside which could cause other problems.
The #19 photo looks long at the toe. The # 22 photo looks as though the sole could be cleaned a bit, but I understand not taking off sole unless is comes off easily.
If you have Pete Ramey's book, take a look at the photos that get more of a bottom/side view of the hoof . . . at an angle . . . as it seems to better show the true length of the wall and will better show the concavity or lack thereof of the sole.
Lots of work, huh? Makes us appreciate the work of farriers, especially on very cold or beastly hot days.
Overall, the hooves look better than the ones in the earlier photos, and I love the look of the left front (the white one) on the ground.
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 5:03 pm:
Hi Katrina,
Your horse looks like he has a basically healthy hoof with a really good frog to foot ratio. It is hard to see some of the fine details from your pictures in order to answer your questions. It appears from the new pictures that the heels may be being rasped level. If so, according to Ramey you want about 1/16 inch wall above the live sole at the heel. This, in essence, allows you to relieve the seat of corn without removing any live sole. Some old style trimmers would pare a very small amount of the seat of corn to do that, but Ramey's suggestion is much better. You really don't want the trimmer taking anything but flaky dead sole off the bottom of the hoof, even to balance the foot. Ramey says that that lump or bump may be where the foot wants to end up. Leave it for one session and check next time. I am glad to see the trimmer is not removing healthy compacted frog anymore. I would remove the flares because the wall is not really attached there and is doing nothing for support. If you continue to leave the flares "as protection" they will just continue to cause the laminae to detach. I did that for quite a long time and finally had a trimmer literally take the walls off above the sole to a healthy hoof wall. Now that the walls have grown out the flares are gone. I would also do more of a mustang roll than your trimmer does. I never have any cracking or chipping in my two Arabs walls anymore. I tried to find a trimmer and had to keep telling him what to do as you have had to do; finally I just started doing them myself. It gets a lot easier as the hoof gets better and you get better. Ramey has many new articles on his website which really help answer technical questions and redefine his previous book (which I didn't find very helpful). The horse will grow the foot he needs, but the amount of concavity and compacted sole and frog is really important for a horse to have a heel first landing. He explains how to tell just how much you have. It is wonderful that your horse was barefoot all his life so that he developed healthy hoof. You are way ahead of people whose horses have worn shoes for a long time. I have one of each. My youngster was barefoot for years and only had shoes once or twice. His "pasture trim" and constantly cracking walls made me start doing the hooves myself. He has great concavity; but I have to watch the length of his heels. If they get too long the frog doesn't get enough pressure. My older horse had shoes for about 4 years. He had underrun heels, long toes, tripping, etc. I tried to balance his front feet from underneath to shorten the toe which inhibited his ability to grow a calloused sole. Now I don't touch any sole and shorten from the top by backing up the toe, and he is finally gaining more concavity in his fronts. His backs were always pretty good. I continue to take the toes shorter and make sure they are well bevelled or rolled. If you have an Arab, you may have more hoof wall growth on the inside of the rear hooves. My youngster's were about 1/2 inch longer than the outsides. I worried about whether to try to make them more even. The feet had been really misshapen from previous farrier trims. Finally, I bevelled the insides really well on the long sides and the hoof is still longer but the sole parts are much more even. Ramey has an article about that too saying that Arabs and other horses that trot a lot can develop that longer inside from additional lateral cartilage development from use. If you shorten it the horse will just grow it back. He recommends not trying to trim it shorter to be more even; let the horse dictate what he needs. I feel much more confident in what I am doing with my guys now. It is a long learning process but well worth the effort. And you really can see changes in the hoof in just a few days. It is truly amazing. Gail
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 7:35 pm:
Thanks Holly and Gail I really appreciate the tips. I had been doing his feet for over 4 months because the old barefoot trimmer made him lame but cutting the frog and heels to much. He was very heel sore and lame. His bars grew crazy the last few weeks and I was trimming flairs every week. so I found another barefoot trimmer as I don't have enough confidence in myself yet. I wanted to get an opinion on her trim. I sent her the photos after she did them and she noticed in them that she should have backed the toe up more , so I am to do that until she comes in 4 weeks. I am also to keep the bars from growing crazy as they have done since the snow came and he is not on rocks to wear them down. She said that if the bars are kept under control it should help the flaring. Thoughts? I do have Pete Ramsey and Jamie Jacksons books and I check the good websites for up dates. His feet are still able to go on rocks and he is sound but he shakes holding his back feet up indicating some pain in the other feet. The back feet are hard to do for long periods of time. The trimmer said its because of pain in the front from the bars. This has become worse after the trim. Thoughts?
Holly I see what you mean in the picture on the first. Thats the white front. I always have to trim that side more for some reason. In photo 19 and 22 are his rear which were too concaved and I am slowly trying to correct that.
Gail I had let his heels grow because they were so low he was almost walking on his bulbs. Do you think she trimmed them too much? I roll his feet a little every week so she said she did not have to do much in that area. The flairs I remove a bit each week as they have also been growing like crazy lately( another reason for a professional) I will not allow the sole to be touched as he had no concavity and they they are now beautiful concaved which is hard to tell by the pictures. This has only happened by not touching them.
Thanks again, you guys are great.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:04 am:
Hello Katrinia,
If we are discussing medial-lateral or anterior-posterior balance there is no way to judge from this angle whether these feet are balanced. Chronic imbalance will cause deformations in the shape of the sole but that does not speak to the balance of these feet "now". To see how to judge balance see References » Equine Illustrations » Leg Anatomy and Conformation.
Concerning rotational or breakover balance, I too first agreed with your farrier's assessment there may be a bit too much toe out front. This appears to be not so much from your trim as from a chronic mild to moderate under-run heel that is pretty easy to see in the untrimmed foot: note how far back the widest part of the foot is and that the buttresses are not adjacent to the widest part of the frog. However your trim has largely corrected much of this imbalance. When I actually measure with a ruler the difference in anterior and posterior line segments divided by the projected line from the center of rotation the imbalance is small. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Correcting Long Toe Low Heel Foot Conformation
But assuming the actual feet measure the same the question on what to do about it if anything cannot be answered from the photos. The photos show a foot that has already been trimmed remarkably so I an not sure you can shorten the foot up any more and since we cannot see the other balancing points it is hard to make judgements on that point.
For the barefoot horse an option would be to rocker the toe to move breakover back but this depends on having enough sole to not make the horse sore if you thin the sole at the toe.
In summary I think most of your questions are best answered with pictures that accurately reflect balance when the horse is standing square on the foot. And I bet everyone would like to see them.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 8:39 am:
Thank you Dr O. I feel so much better that I was doing the right thing. What a relief. I will never understand why the first barefoot trimmer did not do this. I am sure his trim was making him worse. I love your article and it explains alot. I will wait a week and rocker the toe a little . His feet grow really fast and think he will have enough sole to handle this. I was shown how to tell when to stop filing from the top by the way the flakes of wall when rasping fall to the ground. A very helpful thing to know. I will take some more pictures over the weekend. This has been a very learning process. I really like my new trimmer and I am glad her trim is good. She seems to know what she is doing and is also teaching me along the way. I feel better not doing it alone. I was so scared I would damage his feet and legs.
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 5:22 pm:
Katrina,
What do you mean the flairs have been growing like crazy. Do you mean growing out or becoming larger or more of them or what. As far as the heels go they should be about 1/16 inch above the live sole. Yes they are very close to the ground. But you want the horse using his heels and frog as he puts his foot down. I let my heels grow out to 1/4 inch and then the frog was reaching for the ground--I did not have enough frog contact. You don't want to rasp them even, though, you need the heel butress to be above the live sole about 1/16 inch. Also, don't worry about trimming the bars. If they appear folded over, he may just need more sole. If he keeps regrowing the bars, he may need them for temporary support and then they will realign after other needed structures develop. I had bar pools and they feel off after I ignored them for a while. Read the articles on Ramey's website, hoofrehab.com, as they are very informational and helpful. He has one on bars alone as well as frogs, live sole, heels, etc. They are much more helpful than his book as he has rethought some of his information and changed some of his trimming style. I also like the website, ironfreehoof.com (I think that's right). She has some new articles under Trimming and the second one is really great to look at how a digital cushion can be mashed, squeezed or healthy. It has lots of pictures although some of her trims don't seem quite balanced from the pictures. If you read the Ramey articles you will feel more secure about what you are doing. Be really careful about removing anything on the bottom of the hoof. One of my friends just took a few swips with her rasp on her horse's frog and he came up lame. And you don't want to trim the sole callous unless you really understand what is going on with the hoof and know that is right for your horse. Again, there is an article by Ramey that discusses that and when you would want to do that. You need to read all info through your own filter, but I have found the Ramey articles to be the most helpful for the nuances of the barefoot trim. Hope this helps. Gail
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:23 pm:
Hi Gail, I mean that every week his walls at the heels would flair. (ie:not a straight line from the coronet band) growing out. I had been trimming according to Pete rameys book and web site as well as the iron hoof. I had left the bars alone because of his article on bars. They were my references. I had left the bars and the new trimmer thought they were a problem. The soles peeled off by leaving them alone but the bars just started growning crazy with the snow. His winter paddock is pure rock so he did not have them to wear them down. He has always had plenty of frog contact in fact the old trimmer cut them to make them level with the heel which of course made him lame I also have a girl Kim who is in contact with Ramey and had talked to him about my horse she has helped me out alot. I am going to give this new trimmer a go and see if her thoughts about the bars are right( I am not sure) her trim is similar to mine and he was sound after. I have a lot of faith in her. She left the frog alone thank goodness. If her ideas about the bars make him sore I will go back to doing it myself. Right now I am glad to have the burden lifted for a while. Though Dr O made me feel better saying that he has improved by the photos with my trimming.
Thanks for all you thoughts and info. It really helps me. This hoof stuff is addicting and stressful
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 4:46 pm:
took a few more pictures. He was too hyper to stand square today. Not enough exersise with all the ice. What angles should I take Dr O ? I took a smidgen off the toes and a smidgen off the wider side on the pigmented hoof to balance it more like in the article. Looking at it today I could already see that side start to flair. also For some reason his pigmented feet one in the front and one in the back have steeper angles. Is this normal? His pasterns are also at a steeper angle.
https://pets.webshots.com/photo/2528670280100303469SRyIHE
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 8:21 pm:
Katrina,
The angles are different when measured or they look different? The difference in color can fool the eye.
Great pictures, but it's very difficult to really see a hoof in any picture. My impression is the heels are plenty short, I'd suggest not doing the smidgen here and a smidgen there approach. Often this leads to hooves too short.
I like to trim, then let nature take it's coarse for four or five weeks. And then make adjustments during the next trim. Often nature takes care of the little problems before I have too By nature I mean letting the hooves wear in the pasture. If your horses are stall bound or in very small paddocks you may have to trim more often.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 9:25 pm:
Thanks Alden, Maybe they look different I havent actually measured them I go by eye. Do the new pictures make him look to short? I go by what you say however he is used to being on very rocky ground and now there is snow and his feet are growing like crazy because they are not being worn down. Each week they look like they grew too much. maybe I am doing what I always do over kill. I sometimes wish I never started this barefoot thing as now I am obsessed, but then again I love the way my horses feet are. I promise to leave them alone for 4 weeks or untill the trimmer comes. His heels are short because the first trimmer kept cutting them back and let them get underrun. They have actually gotten 1/2 inch higher . They were really bad. I cant wait for the snow and ice to melt so nature will do all the work or at least most of it.
Thanks again Alden,
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Katrina, because links above eventual expire and break, I avoid reviewing off site images. If you would post them in the forum I would be glad to review them.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:20 am:
Ok Dr O, Any other angles. Getting him to stand square was difficult as it was very windy and cold and the other horses were bugging us.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:27 am:
Woops the other pictures did not come up:
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:29 am:
oh they did show up but too big.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 6:33 pm:
Hello katrina,
The problem with the images running off to the right is you did not put a blank line between them. I have edited the posts so they don't push it off to the right.
Much of the standing view above is lost in the soft material the horse is standing on. This needs to be a hard surface. Also taking the shot from directly in front of the horse when the feet turn out a bit makes it difficult to judge m-l balance. You need to take one shot for each foot and leg standing directly in front of the leg and the way it is pointing.
To evaluate the a-p balance we need a shot taken from the side with the horse standing square. Often each side needs to be shot separately.
katrina, almost no matter how good your photos are, you are going to be able to get a better evaluation of the foot by being able to view it from different angles and different lights and by watching the horse move and see how the foot lands. While we are glad to evaluate what we see on the photos you need to understand the principles of balance and the last decision always rest with you.
A few thoughts on the comments about. A wall that flares quickly is often because that side is a bit longer than it should be for balance. Cutting the heels short does not cause underrun heels, it is leaving them too long that causes the tubules to bend so the distal aspect points forward.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:43 pm:
Thanks Dr O,
You have been a great help as well as your article. I am getting a much better understanding and not feeling so unsure of myself thanks to you. He is striding out much better and landing heel first. I totally understand the balance thing now finally. Now I know what caused his lameness in the beginning at first I did not know exactly but had pinpointed it to a few things. It was not the heels being cut to short or the bars as I originally thought. It was the unbalance, under run heels and severe trimming of the frog. I can now see and know exactly what to do. PS I love your mentioning measuring the picture with a ruler to check balance. It just gives a double check of my work. Phew its so good not to feel so unsure. Hopefully no more feet problems.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 6:26 am:
Thanks katrina,
I would still like to see the photos if you have time. When you can take good photos that demonstrate m-l and a-p balance it means too me you understand how to evaluate balance.
DrO
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