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Discussion on Newly barefoot
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 1:09 pm:
Hello Everyone,
After a lot of soul searching, hand wringing and just plain old agonizing, I decided to remove my geldings shoes. He has been wearing shoes on his front feet for 3 years. Yes, I have had them reset at regular intervals, but he has not been without this support structure for the above said time.
What precipitated this decision was that my farrier had decided to quit his business and take on a regular job. I found this out after coming back from a family visit out of town. My farrier did not call to tell me his intentions beforehand. It was 2 weeks to confirm this information and another 2 weeks to find a new farrier. In the meantime my horse is growing out of his shoes and looking pretty sore and out of balance.
I finally get the new farrier in to do his feet and put on some new shoes. The shoes work OK for a while, but in the meantime all the snow is melting and the frost is coming out of the ground. My horse is starting to look a little flat footed and really off. I have put in a call to new farrier. I finally connect with him 10 days later. He tells me that he has broken his foot 3 weeks before my left messages on his answering machine and will not be able to do my horse, but that my old farrier is back in business. Well “Gee Whiz” doesn’t express my feelings at this point, but I did have to say to him that it wasn’t my horse that broke your foot. Two weeks after this conversation, I finally get my old farrier back. I had been talking to my vet in the meantime about Laser going barefoot and the farrier troubles I have been having. She said if you are going to pull his shoes now would be the time to do this. The ground would be a little more forgiving.
Soo…..I took a leap of faith and had farrier number 1 pull off his shoes that were put on by farrier number 2. Farrier number 1 did the “Traditional pasture trim”. Scooped out some sole to dump the toe and trimmed his frogs. Rasped the rough edges. I don’t think I breathed through the entire process. My kit does include foam pads, vet wrap and 3M duct tape should things take a turn for the worse and the vets phone number on speed dial.
One week later , after his shoes have been removed by farrier number 1, a barefoot trimmer shows up at the barn to trim another horse. I happened to be there at the time and lurked around in the background listening to the dialogue with his client. His training or education seemed to confirm with what I had been reading and studying on the barefoot horse web sites. I asked and offered to pay him for his time to have a look at my horse….
We have heel first landing most of the time, but still the occasional toe stab or tripping.
I do expect to have some down time (no riding) until things heal up, if they ever do.
He has been barefoot for about 2½ weeks now and he is not looking too bad. Striding out more in the front. I hope I have made the right decision.
Here are some pics that I managed to get in between rain showers. Not the best but I will keep working on it after it quits raining.
Left fore:
Will keep working on resizing photos and post as they are done.
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 1:36 pm:
Left fore sole:
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 1:56 pm:
Right fore, lateral view:
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 2:06 pm:
Right fore sole:
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 2:12 pm:
His feet are such that he grows long toe, underrun heels. Flares out in the toe and his heels tend to flare in or curl under  .
Thanks in advance for any comments, encouragement or suggestions.
Susan B.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 2:49 pm:
Looks pretty good - is he sound ? You can probably expect some on and off lameness and ouchiness. I have been through the process and now I use a rasp every two or three weeks to stay ahead of flares. The farrier comes every 7-8 weeks to check my balancing of the foot. I still have one of my five horses in front shoes, so he's not starving but I feel so much better about my main riding horse. Good Luck, Stacy
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 4:06 pm:
I think he looks pretty good also for just having his shoes off. One thing. I dont think the soles should be touched, they need to callus. Imagine everytime someone took a layer off your feet without shoes to protect them. That has to be done with shoes , but nature takes care of it barefoot. The soles eventually get nice and concave all on there own without anyone touching them. It takes about a 10 months to a year though. Good luck with barefoot. I am 5 months barefoot and not a lame step even on rocks. I am really happy with my barefoot trimmer. I lucked out.
Good luck to you I hope it works. Most can go barefoot trimmed by barefoot trimmers or a good farriers that understand the 4 point trim. But there are always the few that cant just like people with thin fingernails,
Again good luck,
Katrina
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 10:57 pm:
I would have to say if he can be on that nice soft pasture while he acclimates you could be on your way to success. I took the shoes of my retired mare who had the exact same feet, it took about 3 months before I moved her back to her rocky pasture but it has been a couple years now she has been 100%.
I am curious, what type of riding do you do with him ?
I agree with Katrina, there should be no reason to take any sole off and the first two or so trimmings you should not get too radical. He will eventually thicken his sole and then his feet will be more robust.
I started with my mare just rounding the toe every couple of weeks, relieving the quarters and making sure the heels were level. Now I dont do much except level the heels. She has completely stabilized. There is no reason you can not do this yourself if you stay on top and have a farrier check your work every few months. If you take a rasp to him every 2 weeks you avoid the more drastic trimmings that might lead to soreness.
I have four horses and they all have at least two bare feet each. They all have different trimming needs but if you stay on top of it is is quite straight forward. I started by having my shoer check them when I felt their feet were getting out of control. He would usually tell me that it was not as bad as I thought.
I really feel for you and your experience with shoers. Unfortunately this seems to be a common complaint. I am one of the few fortunate ones to have a reliable, talented shoer, and I make sure I am always on time an reliable myself.
Good luck!!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 7:53 am:
I hate to say it, but I think these hooves look pretty bad.
The bars are non-existent, the heels are seriously underrun, the wall is too thin, the sole is bruised and it looks like a bad crack forming on the coronet of the right fore.
I do not know if underrun heels can be corrected with a barefoot trim. I would cut these heels seriously and put him on wedges for a few months, until his bars and heels start growing strong and balanced.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 11:55 am:
That was just my point Christos (not made very clearly) My mares feet looked just like this for years and years. We had wedges, barshoes, pads, for 15+ years we fought bruised heels and soles because of her feet. Now she has low heels but they are not underrun and her sole is more concave. Of course she is retired now but she does blast over rocks when she is in the mood and we no longer have sole bruises. I would have to say it took at least 6 months for her foot to start looking less underrun.
Now why wedges might not fix the problem is a whole nuther debate. My opinion is based on my experience with my mare. I think lifting the heels does relieve the pressure on them. I had this debate many times with my shoer. He disagreed and I told him that until he was willing to spend a day in high heels he could not possibly know. But as the heel grows, there is no wear and I believe the pads are slippery for them, the result is that when they grow out, they get pushed under again. With a bare foot horse the forces are completly different on the heel, actually pushing them more upright, toward the heel bulbs, as well as keeping any excess worn down.
I think Stacy should give it a try as long as she is willing to baby his feet for several months and realize she may have an ouchy horse when out on a gravel road. Of course if she does want to try shoes again after she gets control of those heels she will have to be on top of things and not let her horse go to long.
Are you confused yet Stacy ?? 
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 12:51 pm:
Lets see:
To answer everyones questions;
Stacey, he is not completely sound. He has a bone spavin in his right hock. He was not really sound in his shoes either.
Shelley, Laser is ridden as an english pleasure horse. With these feet there is no jumping.
Katrina, the barefoot trimmer understands not to take off his sole and preserve his frog. Farrier #1 in my first post did the traditional pasture trim after removing his shoes, so I was anticipating soreness.
Christos,
When it comes to shoes, pads, wedges we have been there and done that. To cut anymore heel could produce blood. Don't want to do that. I will work on some better photos when the trimmer comes on Sunday.
Shelley,
Thank you for your last post. It was very encouraging to hear about your mare. I am looking at getting some hoof boots for the transition period, but still haven't decided which ones yet.
An update to all. It has been raining steady for the last 4 days, so things are muddy and slippery everywhere. Just handwalking for now to keep him moving.
Yes, I am willing to baby his feet, knowing that I can always put shoes back on.
Thanks guys, we have been through many ordeals together and your support means a lot to me.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 1:10 pm:
Um, underrun heels can most definitely be fixed while barefoot, it has been proven time and time again.
On Susan's horse, his toes need to be rockered. Doing this will stop the leveraging force that is being applied. The longer his toes get, the more they are going to pull the heels under. So, getting the toes back in under the hoof will allow the heels to grow straighter.
The walls are thin because he has been in shoes for three years. His foot has been in a fixed position, not able to touch the ground and grow like it wants to, or become thick and tough.
The soles are bruised because the farrier thinned them. This bruising will go away when the horse grows more sole, and his foot becomes tougher.
Just my observations,
Nicole in New Mexico
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 1:26 pm:
My recommendation on boots are the old macs. Plus I am an Ausie.  I had the easy boots and let me tell you they are not easy, not to say the metal things inside that damages the hoof wall. I have had mine for about 4 years. I bought them when my horse was ouchy after trims when he was first barefoot. They have been in mud almost up to his knees swimming, rocks. There is no where these boots havent gone. They are easy on easy off and have never come off. The easy boots came off all the time and I would have to go searching for them in miles and miles of woods. not fun.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 1:52 pm:
One thing That A lot of you probably wont agree with but, here goes anyway. If you are able to pasture your horse on rocky ground right from the start, they will start toughen the soles faster than soft ground. They pick and choose where they put their feet without a rider on their back. Soft ground prolongs the process into months, and months, and keeps them wet and soft. then you have to find the same ground to ride on or he will become lame or ouchy. My trimmer is sooooooo jealous of our extrme rocky territory. He brags to everyone how he has these 2 barefoot horses have the strongest feet ever in such a short time. He was ouchy the first day and thats it and he did not have great feet not bad but not great.. We all agree its the rocky terrain.
Just my thoughts on soft ground, Sorry if I upset anyone
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 1:58 pm:
PS thats for sound horses only
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 2:35 pm:
I totally agree on the effects of rocky terrain, Katrina. Just wait until those hooves harden fully, we'll see then how your farrier likes them. 
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 3:24 pm:
Hi Susan, sending positive, soul toughening thoughts to your boy...it's a hard road...
Can you bring in some rock? Does he move around a lot? Movement is also key...
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 6:22 pm:
Hi all,
I agree that the rocky terrain will tougher them up faster. I pulled my older mare's front shoes almost 6 weeks ago. She is still a little slow (her attitude slowed a little too), but she manages to get up the hill with the rest of the herd.
I really hopes this works for us as I want to pull my young mare's front shoes after the rainy season.
The Kona Coast is pretty much all rock, so we ride in the same terrain as they are pastured. I just wish we had a barefoot trimmer here. I am studying up on Pete Ramey and will probably do it myself. Leilani
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 8:05 pm:
Yes on the dry/rocky terrain with one qualifier. Those feet do look very flat soled, so I would start with dry and then move to dry and hard. Otherwise you are going to risk bruising those feet, and possibly abscessing.
I did not know there were so many people who thought rocks were good for their feet. I guess that would explain why my horses have such great feet. I live on a rock farm.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 8:51 pm:
Hello Susan,
We cannot judge your new farrier because we do not know what he started with. Perhaps for all these problems, this is worlds better? The views of the bottom support what you say: he has a long toe and underrun heels. The best way to grow stronger and straighter heels is moving breakover back and it look like the farrier is making a start of moving breakover back with a rocker. I guess I would have been a bit more aggressive with the rocker (if the sole allowed) and also rolled the toe (but there are experts who disagree this is necessary).
Whether to cut away heel or not will depend on whether there is crushed tubules or not. Whether to pad and shoe is necessary will depend on if removing severely damaged tissues results is thinning the sole dangerously. If there is enough sole these type problems can be fixed with or without pads and shoes but in either case technique is everything.
The views don't allow for much other judgement. Would it be possible to have images with him standing square on level concrete and you should include the pastern, fetlock, and a bit of the cannon. Each foot should be taken separately from the side the good shots from the front.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 10:37 pm:
Hi Aileen,
Thank you for "Lovely play on words thoughtfulness"  . It is greatly appreciated.
Laser does move around quite a bit. I am always on the lookout for toe points, and laying down spots. He has a buddy in his paddock and these two are always trying to herd one another up. I have to stand around the corner and hide to watch them. If they spot me, they huddle up close together looking like a two headed horse in dire need of medical attention  .
I know that movement is very important and he has been getting daily walks, weather permitting. It has been very wet and rainy for the last 4 days, so it is mud everywhere including the road in which is partially under water.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 10:50 pm:
Thank you for your input Dr.O .
I will do my best to get some good photos. It will not be concrete, but firm rubber mat is the next best thing.
A question that I do have; how do you tell if they have crushed tubules? Given the circumstances under a fixed shoe, I wouldn't know what to look for.
Thanks,
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006 - 8:00 am:
Susan, the wall will appear bent and cracked under the hoof or out to the side. Though the tubules on your hoof are deformed at the heels (notice how the rings on the hoof wall wave if you look closely you will see they follow the nonparallel contour of the tubules making up the wall) I don't see any crushed areas but there are areas I cannot see well.
DrO
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