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  Discussion on Failing lameness test on prepurchase examination
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Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2000 - 2:29 pm:

I have been looking for a horse for my husband in the Denver, Colorado, area. During the last year we have had 3 quarterhorses fail the lameness examination. These were young horses - two were 4 years old, and showed some lameness in 1 front leg. According to my Vet, about 2.5 on a scale from 0 to 5, where 0 is sound and 5 is very lame.
Another 6 year old had a club foot, and showed lameness both in that foot and to a lesser degree in the normal front foot.
We did not consider buying any of these horses, because we thought horses at that age should be able to pass the lameness examination. Also, we have had a horse with navicular disease, and though we loved him dearly, he had to be retired to light pleasure riding very early.
I hear comments from trainers such as: "There is no such thing as a 100% sound horse." Is that a valid comment? I am having another horse vetted on Wednesday, by a different Vet (because of the area where the horse is). This Vet has been recommended to me by two horsey friends. I have noticed that certain trainers do not want to deal with certain veterinarians in the area, based on past experiences. That makes me nervous, of course. I don't remember having had such a hard time in the past getting a horse through a prepurchase examination.
Any comments would be welcome - sometimes I am wondering if I am turning down good horses. We like quarterhorses because of their calm temperament, but a lot of people say they are pre-disposed to navicular disease.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 6:56 am:

Lilo,
You are absolutely right in insisting on a sound horse. Don't get sucked in.
Good luck!

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 12:39 pm:

If I were buying a young horse, I would expect it to pass the lameness pre-purchase exam.

An older horse may be given a bit more latitude depending on what it has been used for, how it has been going recently and what I planned to do with it.

I'd compromise on breed, color, height, beauty or training, before I'd compromise on soundness or disposition.

Cheers.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 1:39 pm:

Chris and Cheryl,
Thank you for your responses. You are helping my resolve to insist on soundness before else. It just sounded like the trainer was trying to "prepare" me for a less than perfect lameness test.
Like you said, Chris, soundness and disposition are at the top of my list. It would be different if I were looking at an older horse as a schoolmaster for a young child. Then I could accept a problem, as long as it would be manageable, maybe with special shoes or something like that. Also, I would have to know that I could retire that horse comfortably.
Thanks again,
Lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 4:45 pm:

Dear Chris,

Ditto on what everyone else said. As far as the quarter horses tending toward navicular, I personally haven't seen the problem being that breed specific. My experience (maybe someone has seen studies to either back this up or refute it) has been that if a horse is not started too young and has the foot size to carry his/her weight, your chances for navicular are greatly reduced. Unfortunately, navicular is all too common with hunter/jumpers (my first love). With the size of the horses we use growing so much (in my neck of the woods, it used to be 16.0h - 16.1h was considered a big horse, now it's 16.3h-17.0), I don't think that we (the stereotyped hunter/jumper group) have compensated enough in letting young horses' bone structures mature properly before starting them ... more size + more weight = more bone stress ... even more so with the introduction of warmbloods into our breeding, because I don't think a lot of the crosses really finish growing until they're almost 5. There are always exceptions to the rule, but if a seller proudly tells me his/her just-turned 3 year old already stops on a dime and spins, I start x-raying every piece of bone I can find (grin). Anyway, just thought I'd stick in my 2cents worth. Good luck in your hunt!

Nancy

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 8:40 pm:

I think many quarter horses DO develop navicular--simply because:

a. It used to be all the rage to have these 1200 lb. "halter class" babies on 00 shoes. The judges rewarded this look, so they were bred--regardless of how it affected the horse later on, or whether there might have been more than a conformational proclivity toward the condition.

b. Quarter horses, bless their sweet souls, are usually started very early. You have all these people entering futurity classes--in heavy performance sports--with what the rest of the equine world considers to be babies. The proponents of these events state that "quarter horses mature early." Well, maybe they just get "big" early.

If I wanted a quarter horse, I'd look for one with big feet, and for a breeder who didn't succumb to the "start at 18 months" trend.

There are many nice, even tempered breeds. Tennesse Walkers come to mind--if you can find one that hasn't been shown or wasn't started too early.

Hang in there. If worse comes to worst, buy a weanling or a yearling (after looking at mama & papa's legs & feet) and hold off starting it until it's at least a late two-year-old.

I also think you trainer might have some financial interest in the horses you're being offered if he's discounting soundness.

Good Luck.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 11:17 pm:

Soundness and disposition ARE at the top of the list. Take your time looking and don't let anyone push or rush you. There are many many horses out there - you will find a good one.
I also agree with Eve and Nancy, who both made good points. I will only add that another contribution to navicular synDrOme is leaving too long a toe on babies.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2000 - 11:54 am:

I agree with Eveo. If the horse hasn't got good feet and legs under him, he's probably not a good horse. I love the quarter horse, and own one, but I have also had experiences with QH's being bred to walk on 'teacups' and breaking down very early in life because of the strain put on young 'big' quarter horses. I've seen pasture riders ruin a good horse by the time they're 5 because they were big when they were 2 and put to work in the pasture.

My husband recently bought a QH mare with relatively small feet, however she is also a very dainty mare and will not be a huge mass of muscle, although she is tall - so we think her feet will support her. She has just turned 3 and we have just started trail riding her lightly. I also think that a horse started too early is going to set you up for problems later.

I also have a tennessee walking horse. They typically have a larger foot and again, he wasn't started until he was 3. He is 4 now and I still consider him to be a baby 'in training'. They are very easy going and intelligent and along with the natural gaits bred into him, I found out last night he is very cowy. We had a calf out and he damn near chased it back through the fence without ANY guidance from me, I just hung on.

Take your time, there's lots of really good sound horses out there. I wouldn't buy anything that didn't pass a lameness test.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2000 - 2:02 pm:

Hello everyone,
Thank you so much for your comments. They support what I have been thinking. I can't go with the: buy a yearling and train him yourself option for two reasons. One, my job requires long, long hours, so not much time for training. Two, my husband is 76 years old and anxious to get back into regular riding, and I need my trail riding companion back. So, will keep you posted on what happens with the latest prepurchase exam. I am printing out your comments for reference!
Thanks,
Lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2000 - 1:44 pm:

Hello again,
Horse number 4 also did not pass the lameness exam - lame in the right front and in the left hind leg. The trainer wants to see if the owner will do x-rays and diagnostics, but right now I am discouraged about quarterhorses. After re-reading all the posts, I think I might pursue getting a young Missouri Fox Trotter. They are a little more available here than Tennessee Walkers, and people who own them are very happy with them.
Thanks again for all your responses,
Lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2000 - 1:54 pm:

Sorry you're having so much trouble Lise, but perseverence wins the race.

Your decision to purchase a Missouri Fox Trotter will probably be a good choice. My husband and I are in our mid-40's and I really appreciate my gaited tennessee walker (I think they're similar to a Missouri Fox Trotter) because of the smooth ride, (we're not as young as we used to be) and because of the sound feet and legs and quiet easy going temperment even in a very young one. I purchased mine as a 3 year old.

Good luck with your search! The horse that's meant for you is still out there waiting for you to find him/her.

Keep us posted on when you make your purchase!

Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2000 - 10:26 pm:

I wouldn't do the diagnostics: if the horse is already lame, you don't want it. One thing that has worked here is to tell the owner up front when you call about looking at the horse "If I like this horse, I am going to do a complete prepurchase exam. Will this horse vet? Because if not, we'll be wasting your time and mine." A lot of owners will hedge a bit and say, "Well, she has trouble in the left hind from time to time, but I don't think it's anything." I wouldn't bother looking at that horse, nor a horse the owner told me wouldn't vet. Stick with those that the owner says, "Well, I have no idea why she wouldn't."

Since we started this approach, we've had very few surprizes on prepurchase exams, and have had our boarders find some very lovely horses.

Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2000 - 5:35 am:

Hi Liselotte
I find it odd that every horse you try fails the lameness exam - what part are they failing? Are we talking about flexion tests here?? Because if you read Dr O's article on the prepurchase exam, you'll see that many perfectly sound horses fail a flexion test. Makes sense - if somebody flexed your joints really hard for a while so that your circulation was cut off, and then asked you to run, you could be pretty sure that you'd limp a couple of steps and perhaps even longer - depending on how hard the flexion was and for how long it was held. Were you there when the tests were done and are you satisfied it was done in a way that gave the horses a fair chance?
But other than that I agree completely with the others - you can't compromise on soundness or disposition.
Karen

Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2000 - 1:44 pm:

Hi all,
I read everything on the prepurchase examination here, and I would agree that a horse should not be called lame based on the flexion test alone. Also, there were three different vets involved, two of whom I knew personally because one had treated our first horse (the navicular one), the other is my regular vet. The third vet (last test) was recommended by my good friends who use him, he was actually the vet for the trainer (but not the owner of the horse, therefore had never seen the horse before). The first, third and last test were done at the clinic, the second at my home (on a dirt road, pretty firm and level). All the horses
were showing lamenes when trotted on the circle - even visible to me. Not three legged lame, of course, because I think that would have shown up during test rides. All except horse number 3 were fine in one direction, but not in the other, in other words, only one front foot was the problem. The owners/trainers knew up front that I would have a prepurchase exam and did not object, although owner number 3 did kind of submit his opinion that he did not believe in prepurchase exams.
So, in summary and looking back, I believe the tests were fair. My regular vet said that he expected a few off steps after flexion, but then the horse should trot out sound.
Thanks again for all your opinions and input. If I ever find that horse, I will let you know!
Lilo

Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2000 - 1:08 pm:

Update on the search for a sound horse:
Hello to all,
We finally have a horse at home. We found a young and fairly green Rocky Mountain gelding who had not been started under saddle until his 4th year.
The first pre-purchase examination did not go to well - horse had a temp of 102 and a swollen lymphnode. This cleared up after 2 weeks (without treatment), and we did another pre-purchase 2 days ago. This time no problems were found (other than that he did not hold still too well when his hind feet were examined).
We are so relieved that the search is over. Brought him home yesterday (nice sunny fall day - today it is snowing!) and he seems to be settling in just fine.
Wish us luck - having and training a gaited horse is a new experience for us. Stay tuned for questions.
Lilo
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