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  Discussion on Information on MSM?
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Member:
Bucky

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 2:15 pm:

Hello,

I found this article on www.thehorse.com. Thought you might find interesting.

MSM Helps Sore Muscles
by: Karen Briggs
June 2001 Article # 959

A recent study performed by Ron Riegel, DVM, on 30 racing Standardbreds confirms that the popular nutraceutical supplement MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) can have far-reaching effects on the ability of equine muscle tissue to rebound from exercise stress.

The data, unveiled at the second annual Nutraceutical Alliance conference in Guelph, Ontario, on March 23-24, was gathered, using 30 three- and four-year-old Standardbreds in full race training at an Ohio county fair track. To eliminate other variables in the study, Riegel persuaded trainers to discontinue the use of all injectable and topical medications three weeks prior to beginning the study. This was a tough sell, but necessary because his primary diagnostic technique in assessing each horse's level of soundness and comfort was full-body thermography--a method which scans the horse's body for differences in temperature. Thermography cannot diagnose specific problems--it cannot, for instance, differentiate between a hoof abscess and a fractured coffin bone--but it is a very sensitive method of identifying sites of inflammation (the greater the irritation, the hotter the tissue and the brighter the color on the thermograph).

Riegel separated the horses into three test groups. Group one received no treatment. Group two received 10 grams of MSM daily, and group three received 20 grams of MSM a day (both doses by oral syringe). The horses were examined regularly by thermography for about eight weeks. Riegel also drew blood samples that underwent CBC (complete blood count) and serum chemistry analysis, and tracked their training progress.

The results showed that all of the horses receiving MSM had dramatic improvement in three ways. Thermography showed less inflammation and soreness, particularly through the back and hind end. (The change was faster and more dramatic for the horses on the higher dose.) Additionally, their serum chemistry demonstrated significant DrOps in two crucial parameters: AST (aspartate aminotransferase) and CK (creatine kinase), tests that indicate metabolites from muscle damage. Finally, all treated horses improved their average training time--group two (the lower dose) by two seconds, and group three by 2.62 seconds.

Riegel concluded that MSM provides significant anti-inflammatory and analgesic effects for horses in hard training. MSM has good palatability and no known side effects. "None of the 30 horses experienced any problems with it--no diarrhea, no allergic reactions, no abnormal blood chemistry," Riegel says. "And while we weren't able to quantify it, the trainers reported that the group three horses had better hair coats, faster, and healthier hoof growth, and quicker recoveries after exercise."

Why does MSM have this impact? While the details aren't yet clear, it is known that MSM is an excellent source of dietary sulfur, a mineral involved in the integrity of collagen, cartilage, hooves, and hair, as well as joint fluid and many important enzymes. Medicinally, organic sulfur inhibits the proliferation of scar tissue and slows neurotransmitters, triggering muscle relaxation. Sulfur is abundant in many feeds, but it's quite unstable, breaking down during most forms of processing (such as drying hay), so MSM may be a handy way of delivering it in a stable, absorbable form.
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 4:21 pm:

I feed MSM and have for 6-7 years. I use to only feed it to the geriatric mare but now everyone takes it, even the weanlings when they start a creep feed. I agree it is one of the least expensive supplements to feed. I think I became interested from other breeders or trainers who saw improvement in many areas, feet particularly, and it is antioxidant and antiinflammatory with no side effects that we know of. Our vet practices in southern Calif. have used DMSO IV for years in relation to founder, retained placentas (part of the founder prevention) and cervial trauma. In reading, MSM is the oxidized state of DMSO, but I am no chemist or doctor. I am sure one side of the "supplement" arguement will never agree with the other.
I know people who use DMSO on their sore backs and msm gel on their arthritic hands and the pain in reduced.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 5:45 pm:

Back to John Wilder's question on anyone having had success with the use of MSM on a horse with COPD. I have had what seems to be success with MSM(and management) with my COPD horse. Like everyone has noted, this "success" may have been accomplished without the MSM, but it is part of a regimine I use when this particular horse is having problems! I also use "cough free", and, I myself cannot believe I am admitting to this, but they seem to work for him. He also has had to be on Ventipulmin and inhalers in the past(when he had to travel for training or horse shows). He is now retired, and is doing well with nothing at the moment, except wet feed, hay, and shavings dust free environment! Good luck with your COPD management, John!
Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 7:10 pm:

Concerning the possible mechanism by which MSM may work, this is not sensible. Sulfur is an element and so unless it undergoes nuclear fission or fusion can not be broken down further. Sulfur deficiencies are not reported in horses and as stated above is in abundance in the horses diet.

Though the study above is interesting there is no supporting studies in the refereed scientific, medical, or veterinary literature in any specie. There has been one research project with MSM and horses with COPD in which no effect was found:
Am J Vet Res. 1992 Oct;53(10):1908-16.
Evaluation of clinical signs of disease, bronchoalveolar and tracheal wash analysis, and arterial blood gas tensions in 13 horses with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease treated with prednisone, methyl sulfonmethane, and clenbuterol hyDrOchloride.

I have had good luck with just good management alone in all cases of COPD, for more on this see the article on Heaves.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 7:38 pm:

Man, that was quick, DrO !
I was thinking about you when I made that post, having read what you had stated earlier in HA about MSM, and having done some reading further on the site about studies done cc MSM and other "remedies". I just had to say it, as it seems to have an effect on the recovery of this horse, though, as stated, it could be that he was going to recover whether he was on MSM and "cough free" any way. Just could not rule out the MSM helping... just another anecdotal testimony that I knew you would jump on!
Nancy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 7:56 pm:

I don't understand MSM at all; however, I do use it. I have a friend with an older stallion who just seemed to be "going down hill" for now special reason. She started him on MSM and after a week he was so perky she had to cut his dosage back. This was several years ago, and is what got me interested in using it. I use it on a chronically lame mare (old knee injury) and on any horse with an injury. It seems to me there is quite a bit of improvement usually when I use it. I can definitly tell the difference in the mare when I leave it out of her feed for a few days.

I read an article about MSM being good for asthma and arthritis in humans. Since I have both, I started stealing a little from the horses and mixing it in my juice. After about a week of doing so, I could tell a real difference in the asthma and not quite as much with the arthritis, though it did seem better. Placebo? I don't know. From what I read when I first started using MSM years ago, it acts on the circulatory system.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 11:27 am:

I cannot find anything in the scientific literature where there is a well defined action on the circulatory system or any other system in vivo, but I will continue to look.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 1:30 pm:

Sara and everyone,

I have just started reading about inflammation in our bodies, (after a dr visit and $100's worth of tests) and how it causes many diseases; usually the ones ending with "tis". A great website with alot of information is www.stopinflammation.com. In our case (humans) we need to add fish oil to our diets, cut way back on anything that causes us to have extra AA (some kind of acid) in our systems. I am just learning this myself, but I thought concerning MSM, if it reduces inflammation in our horses, it may very well be helpful for many things which have some kind of inflammation as a base.

But it's the same idea.....all inflammation causes health problems.

Just because "scientifically" horses don't need sulfur, if it reduces inflammation, it would have benefits. and for many differnent things. if it's not toxic, it's more helpful than harmful, so I'd say use it.

To compare again, we don't eat the way we did years ago, and our horses don't eat the same way either. Maybe when we changed them from grazing animals to stalled pets and added grain, we changed their systems (not for the good) and now they do benefit from something (sulfur) that they "shouldn't" need, but it works now.

Far fetched maybe, but in the case of alot of ideas, 10 yrs from now it may be that MSM is indeed proven to be a wonder supplement and you won't find a horse feed without it, who knows??

I hate that word "Scientifically", but it's been proven Scientifically that inflammation is the root of many of our modern diseases.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 5:38 pm:

It is not true Angie that all inflammation causes disease or is bad from a health standpoint. Inflammation is an important component of healing wounds, preventing infection, and in a loose sense is responsible for such regular body functions as replacing the cells in some mucous membranes like your stomach. That is why antiinflammatories sometimes cause gastrointestinal ulcers.

The problem with MSM is they have been making the possible wonder claims for at least the past 20 years and no one has as of yet demonstrated that wonder effect, dare I say it, scientifically.
DrO
Member:
Marroon

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 6:43 pm:

Not trying to butt in but how are they able to identify that the gastorintestinal ulcers are caused by aniinflamatories? Since MSM is not scientifically proven are there test studies that link it to the ulcers also? I better do a search....excuse me.
Member:
Marroon

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 6:53 pm:

Emily, was there ever any discussion with your doctor in regards to a combination mix such at MSM, ChonDrOitin & Gluclosimines? (splg herendous sorry) Just curious.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 10:33 pm:

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I know MSM is NOT advised if your horse has Cushings or Insulin Resistance. I agree with Pamela and Dr. O's thinking.

When Sierra was alive I went overboard with the supplements trying to help her with feet/leg problems. (Laminitis eventually killed her). If I had it to do over again, I'd have the hay analized and feed any missing minerals, or a complete pellet. I've learned a lot since she left me. No, the 'extras' didn't hurt her, but I did a lot of "flushing" as Dr. O quotes. Best to all, Shirl
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2005 - 9:13 am:

Dr.O.,

I am corrected; that was a bad choice of words to say "ALL INFLAMMATION CAUSES DISEASES" You are correct in pointing out all the benefits from inflammation. Thank you for setting me straight.

A better way of putting it, would be to say "the root cause of many diseases is unbridled inflammation." This is where the "scientific studies" have been awesome, on people.

I don't really think MSM will ever be proven to be a "wonder" drug, but I wouldn't rule out that it has some health benefits, in some cases. Personally, I can't take it but thats me.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2005 - 9:34 am:

Anyone know how MSM stacks up against Devils Claw? I have tried both with my senior gelding and see better results with Devils Claw. Anyone else tried both and seen a difference?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2005 - 9:56 am:

Devil's Claw is more of an anti-imflamatory and pain reliever as I understand it. I use it on my mare that had knee surgery as I understand it to be easier on her stomach than bute. ( She only needs something when the weather changes or she overdoes it.)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 12:25 pm:

Devil's Claw is an often discussed topic on this board. One of the best is the discussion, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Phenylbutazone (Bute) » Discussion on "No Bute".
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 1:24 pm:

Shirley
what facet of MSM is contraindicated for horses with insulin resistance or Cushings? Just curious. I have read that glucosamine can elevate blood sugar so you need to be careful with insulin resistant horses, but haven't heard this about MSM
Devils Claw is totally different than MSM, and cannot be given to pregnant mares. Msm to my knowledge can.
I am no expert but this is what I know of:
antiflammatories such as non sterioidal anti inflammatories can cause stomach upset because they are Cox 1 inhibitors, inhibits Prostaglandin production that that has many critical roles in the body and some not so good when it goes haywire. Prostaglandin helps maintain the lining of the stomach that protects it from the normal acid. I don't know that MSM works the same way, I have had it speed up the GI system a little and cause slightly looser stools.
All in all as I have fed it for over 7 years I agree with Angie. No harm that we know of and many positive observations, in my book it is cheap.
The 2 horses I have raised that have been on MSM their whole life, one is 4 and one is a yearling, have the most incredible feet. My 4 yr old has 4 white feet and you need a new rasp everytime he is trimmed and shod his feet are so hard. Ditto the yearling. Also fast growth, if you want that.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 2:09 pm:

Hi Debbie,
As quoted in the Equine Cushing's web: "No convincing evidence anywhere that it helps except for autoimmune/allergic conditions. Potential for interference with selenium and copper absorption. Also some disturbing recent data from human brain scans that MSM accumulates in the brain in high amounts when supplements are taken. Consequences of that are not known." I think it's like every thing else. One day it's 'the thing to do', next day they say it will kill you. I have taken it myself and also gave it to Sierra, but stopped as it didn't seem to help her. I think you have to do what works for you and your horse. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Take care, Shirl
Member:
Longhorn

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 11:53 pm:

Okay, better late than never on this thread. Just an update on MSM.

A friend at work was alarmed when her 25-year old gelding was bleeding from the nose. One time wasn't shocking, bleeding worse the second time was a concern. Her vet said the cause could be many things to include a brain tumor or plaque on an artery that may eventually burst and cause the horse to bleed out and die. My friend spent quite a few shekels having the horse evaluated at a clinic 125 miles away. They discovered that an arthritis supplement they started feeding the gelding a week or so before was the cause. The supplement contained glucosomine, chonDrOitin sulfate, MSM, and hyaluron. It had warnings on the label about not feeding it if the horse suffered from high blood pressure. We're assuming that MSM is like any anti-inflamatory that tends to thin the blood. The MSM probably thinned his blood to the extent he start bleeding. She stopped feeding the supplement and the bleeding stopped and hasn't started back up.

Please don't ask me what the supplement was, I don't remember and I really don't want to denigrate a good product that was recommended by her vet. Horse owners just need to realize what they're feeding their animals. Like human beings, we all just can't take certain substances and have the same reaction.

Read the labels and buy in trial quantities.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 7:11 am:

Though I do not know of any mechanism for the MSM interestingly there is a possible mechanism with the glucosamines and chonDrOitin:
The effect of sodium hyaluronate and sodium chonDrOitin sulfate on the coagulation system in vitro.
Pandolfi M, Hedner U.
Healon (sodium hyaluronate) and sodium chonDrOitin sulfate (CDS) are injected in the ocular cavities in a variety of operations, mainly intraocular lens (IOL) implantation. Both Healon and CDS are structurally similar to heparin. We found that like heparin CDS has an inhibiting action on blood coagulation in vitro. The inhibiting activity is of the antithrombin type. Healon does not possess anticoagulant activity. Since the anticoagulant effect of sodium chonDrOitin sulfate is observable at concentrations likely to occur in vivo the substance may impair ocular hemostasis.

In spite of this I find it unlikely the supplement caused the nose bleeds for two reasons:
1) Nose bleeds are a common event in horses and in uncomplicated transient problems you assume trauma is the cause. I have seen a number of horses with a couple of nose bleeds that then stopped and had no further problems and though I cannot remember whether any were on similar supplements, it certainly was not discontinued if it was.
2) There are tens of thousands (millions?) of horses on similar products and I am not aware of increased numbers of bleeding disorders.

Perhaps this horse has some subclinical clotting disorder that was exacerbated by the anticoagulant effects of the supplement? Possible but I think this is just as likely unrelated.
DrO
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