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Discussion on Blood work used as a health check for horses
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 3:24 pm:
Hi Dr. O,
I was wondering if you have had any change in feelings regarding blood work since it's been almost 8 years since the last post on this converstaion above.
I had blood work done on my old mare and was trying to figure out what it all meant which i what led me to the above postings.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 5:33 pm:
Sara,
I'm sure Dr. O will answer you shortly but here's a web site I found a number of years ago that has helped me understand just what I was looking at. You will find most of the values are very similar, but may have different names and some values need to be calculated, but in general a very useful site.
I think they also have a service where you can send them your blood tests and it will come back with a deeper explanation rather than just high, low, and normal.
https://www.gateway.net.au/~mcvc/horses/red.html
I know you are dealing with an older horse, so I am not sure taking blood once in a while would be a good indicator of health especially if she is not working a whole heck of a lot because technically what would you do if something did come up on the test.
I have had better luck taking several tests over the course of a week, for example on a rest day after a race and before I turned out ( test 1). Right after a training session (test 2) and right before a race (test 3). Test 1 gives me an after race day base line, test 2 allows me to see the effects of the training, and test 3 will tell me if the values are returning to normal right before the race. Well you get the point. Previous to these 3 tests I will know what is normal for each horse.
I have not had much luck determining what is going on with using only one blood test as you do not know where on the continuum the horse is in relation to what's going on(if anything). Just happened, happened last week and is just showing it now or recovering from something.
Anyway the site should help.
Rachelle
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 6:40 pm:
Thank you, Rachelle. I had my old mare tested last March, and again a couple of weeks ago. I'm trying to figure out the best way to feed her to keep her looking and feeling as good as possible.
Once the vet thought she was Cushings due to her heavy coat and told me to put her on Pergolide. I had her on a small dose for almost a year. Her coat did look better, and she seemed to feel better. However, she then developed a lack of appetite and we slowely took her off the Pergolide. She ate good for awhile then quit eating again. This time the vet found a cyst far back in her mouth next to her last molar. He broke it when he was checking her teeth. After this healed, she has continued to eat pretty good,but is picky about what she eats.
I've been giving her a cold, hard look - which is why I took her into the vet. He thinks she looks good for her age, 28, but I don't. You can see her ribs even though her belly looks plump. Of course, she has lost muscle tone since she injured her rear leg a year and a half ago and since developed fibrotic myopothy on her right rear leg so I can't ride her any more. Turn out and hand walking isn't enough to keep her in shape. The lack of muscle in her hind in and along her neck is disturbing to me.
When she had blood work done in March, the vet commented she might have a little renal problem going on, common with older horses. This last test the values were higher and he said she definitely has the beginings of renal problems. He wasn't very specific. He said to feel her just grass hay because the alfalfa was too high in protein for her. He also said the beet pulp I'm feeding her would be good for her, but now I've just read that it's also too high in protein although low in fat. Vet said to add corn oil, but I've read things that dispute that also.
Currently she is getting Eq. Senior, beet pulp, vitamins, biotin, a half cup of rice bran and all the grass hay she wants. She dislikes the grass hay. I've been doing a lot of research trying to figure out what is best for her and thought if I fully understood her blood work it might help.
I'm long winded; sorry. I guess much of this should have gone under "older horses" or somewhere besides chem. test. 
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 7:41 pm:
Sara,
As you know, I sometimes experiment with things in an effort to try and simplify my life. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not. One of my simplification experiments appears to be working and might be just what the doctor ordered for your mare and may simplify her life ( and yours) as well.
It started with Dr. O's discussion on good nutrition and the fact that forage should be the basis of a horses diet with additional concentrate if needed.
Over the past 6-8 weeks, I have completely removed regular baled hay from my horses diets. I was tired of dealing with inconsistent batches of hay that kept changing from one hay delivery to another while the price continued to go up.
So, I switched to Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage. In the beginning it was only going to replace part of the hay ration and use this as a hay extender, but they quit eating any hay at all within a week, both horses were vacuum cleaners before then.
I was just looking for a hay replacement that did not contain molasses, as I tried that last year and found it difficult to work with. It wasn't until about a week after I started feeding the Safe Starch that I read the bag. This forage is a complete feed. It has everything in it a horse might need even biotin and vegetable oil.
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/safestarchfeeding.php
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/safestarchanalysis.php
I have slowly been reducing the amount of concentrate my horses get and they have been maintaining or gaining weight (both look really good) and are acting really good.
I also wet down and make a mash with the hay and feed and they lap it up like its sugar, no alfalfa, just chopped orchard grass and timothy hay. It's pricey, but when you figure in all the wasted hay, the better nutrition and using less shavings because I am not removing clean shavings because its mixed in with the hay, its worth the price. Don't faint $18.99 a bag ( I was paying $12.50 a bale for hay they were not eating) and now its reducing my feed concentrate use as well. So for me its worth it.
Any way, I'd recommend this for your mare if you can get it. ( Agway sells this Brand)
Any way, we are way off topic here ( Dr. O feel free to move this if necessary)
Just my thoughts ( and 2 cents worth)
Rachelle
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 1:52 am:
My old QH mare lost muscle all along her top line. I believe that sometimes there is a muscle wasting component that goes along with Cushings. My mare has been on pergolide for about 4 years, and over that timespan all her symptoms disappeared ( she, also had a disenchantment with food for the first year - on and off). She does still exhibit a mildly uneven coat, but it's nothing compared to the greasy, long, thick, curly 4 to 6 inch patchy mess she used to grow....that refused to entirely shed out in spring.
Her topline returned to it's Round state, the withers and boney hip line is gone. No evidence of a backbone at all. Now.... at 30 years old, she's no spring chicken. She did reining back in the eighties ( long toe, low heel time )and deals with arthritic hocks and hips, navicular, and old bowed tendons. But her ears are up, her eyes bright, and once again, she can trot and canter along with my two other gals...when the mood strikes and if she feels like it, that is.
During her lack of appetite period, I used the CocoSoya oil from Ukeles. Turned out, she'd eat almost anything with that on it. I also cut her feed back to whatever she would finish. I started with a handful, and when she consistently finished it ( quickly ), I added another handful. The minute she left some, I cut her back. She kind of got the hang of finishing her feed with that routine....especially when she had finished her "mouthful", and the other 2 were still eating. ( In those days, grass and hay were almost always available - now, due to weight issues in all three, they've been cut way back ). If there is a tumor on the pituitary gland, and there are symptoms, then it probably needs treating with pergolide. Only you can figure out if it's necessary.
One last thing: I started my mare on previcox a couple of months ago, after reading the discussions here. ( she'd been on and off daily doses of bute since 1986 ) Wow, nice result. I haven't had to inject her front feet this year, and she's off the bute. She's more comfortable now, then she has been in years.
Just some thoughts in the "wee" hours. Good luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 9:35 am:
Sara the statement still stands, "Abnormal results in a healthy horse are of uncertain significance".
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 11:54 am:
Thank you Dr. O.
Rachelle, Thanks for the links. We can't get Triple Crown products here. I'm going to go to their website and see what is listed in the feed. I think I'll ask some questions and start a new post under geriatic horses or nutrition to talk about her diet.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 12:59 pm:
Rachelle, is the Safe Starch a pelleted feed, or a chopped forage along the lines of Dengi Hi Fi?
Lee, I was thinking the same thing about the topline and Cushings connection. Sugar had appearance of muscle wasting before we started Pergolide. She did have inappetance with each increase of dose, but gradually that went away. She is still a "suspicous" eater though, and doesn't like any additives to her feed. Doesn't seem to mind the Pergolide capsules however.
Sara, you may want to discuss the possibility of restarting the Pergolide since you got rid of the mouth problem that might have contributed to lack of gusto at the feed bucket. Good luck finding the key to your girl's health.
Erika
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 3:20 pm:
Erika,
It's a forage product, I haven't looked at the Dengi Hi Fi. Both my horses get approx. 1%- 1 1/2 % of body weight forage= 9-12 lbs and get 1% body weight feed = 9 lbs( although this is getting reduced) they both seem to be doing fine ( both are also on pretty good quality pasture).
I will most likely up the forage and reduce the concentrate as we get closer to the winter and cold weather. I am really surprised that the mare is maintaining her weight as she is a really hard keeper usually. Her 'tude' problems seem to be disappearing which I think correlates to the decrease in the sugar consumption ( her concentrate contains some molasses)due to the reduction in concentrate volume.
Rachelle
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 12:31 am:
Erika, I've been wondering about that myself and am trying to decide. She's eating good currently, but is picky. After her bath, she looked a lot better than I thought she did as far as her hair goes. But it is kind of patchy as to thickness and length and I'm trying to decide if it's the season or something else. She also has some patches that are scurffier (is that a word?) than others. I scrubbed with a medicated shampoo then a soothing moisturizing rinse and conditioner afterwards. She wasn't totally dry when I put her sheet on, so I'll see how her coat looks when shes dry all over. She does have a lot less muscle than she used to. How much of that is due to her inability to exercise like she used to and how much is due to something else is another thing to figure out. I'm leaning towards starting the pergolide again. Her top line is where I really see the most difference, from head of tail to along her neck there is a real lack of muscle. It's been awhile since I've read the Cushings article here. Guess I'll go and re-read it, my memory being as it is.
Rachelle, I think the Nutrena Safe Choice is similar to the Triple Crown. The Eq. Senior is 14% protein as opposed to the Triple Crown's 11%; the Safe Choice is the same as the Safe Starch in protein. Aside from the protein levels, the Senior seems to be about the same as the Safe Starch. The biggest differences are in some of the mineral amounts, and those differences are fairly minor.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:52 am:
Sara, the Nutrena safe choice is a pellet. The Triple Crown is a forage product.
Erika, The Dengi Hi-Fi is alfalfa based, the Triple Crown is timothy and orchard grass.
My horses are very funny, they know the difference between the concentrate and the forage. What I mean is anything that looks like grain and goes in the feed tub must be eaten as quickly as possible. On the other hand, I can put their forage in a feed tub and they eat it slowly and they move away from it if they don't feel like eating, yet every last scrap of it is gone by the time they get their next bucket.
I've always been one that likes to see my horses eat their feed quickly, but I am coming around to the idea that this may not be the healthiest way to feed a horse. They are basically captive prisoners and have to do and eat the way we want them to, but ideally they should have something in front of them all day (and all night long).
I need a feeder that will let me put the hay and grain together so they can eat all the time. I feel an invention coming on.
Rachelle
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:30 am:
Hi Sara, I agree with you Beau does NOT look good for her age, your elderly horses always look wonderful and apart from that I think she changed to fast in appearance. I had an old TB eat/look good on boiled linseed on top of everything because she loved that food[especially when mixed with some honey ] and carrots in with everything kept her eating. I reasoned the wet carrots were the nearest to grass which is also quite often easiest to get into a picky eater. Obviously these methods were just to make her eat the things she needed like senior feed.
Guess you will have to resort to apples mixed in everything?
Jos
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:31 am:
We have nothing like the Triple Crown available here. However, the Safe Choice is close in nutrient content.
The only reason to want a horse to eat fast is so you can get them working. I like my horses to eat slowly. Also, I don't give them their grain or supplements, if they get any, until after they've eaten at least some of their hay. Somewhere along the line I was taught to do this; that a horse will digest their grain better that way. I agree that ideally a horse should have food in front of them all day.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:03 am:
Jos, carrots are closer to a concentrate than a forage with a large percentage of the carbohydrate being sucrose, glucose, and fructose.
Carrots are 85% water which means you can eat large amounts without consuming many calories but when you consider them nutritionally and look at the dry matter basis roughly 1/3 of the carrot is carbohydrate half of which is fiber and the other 1/2 is sugar.
DrO
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 5:40 pm:
Thanks Dr O so a few pounds as appetizer excluding horses prone to founder will be ok I guess.
Jos
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