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Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 8:25 pm:

If your horse is already cool to the touch, do you still hose them? Better they do it themselves or should I help out?

It's 113 here, and there is a slight breeze. I'm definitely hosing after he eats most of his dinner (after sunset) to help him cool down.

Edited to add that he's had the sprinklers misting him all day.

Thanks!
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 11:11 pm:

Hi Aileen,
Does your horse like to be hosed? Mine come running when they see it! I say if they enjoy it, do it. If it is stressful, let them hang out in front of the fans.
Erika
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 12:32 am:

Hi Erika, no not stressful, but he certainly doesn't come running :-) He stands just far enough away from the sprinkler to get the mist, but he doesn't dare get in the way of the sprinkler...lol...
Member:
Dres

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 9:48 am:

Aileen, I have been hosing off the mare and colt three to four times daily in this awful heat.. They both fight for front hose rights.. In the heat of the day i only hose down the hot zones.. chest/legs/flanks/belly/ between the legs.. Don't know if this is fact or not.. but was told that if you hose the upper body and then the horse stands in the sun , the sun / hosed horse actually become hotter.. the water turns hot and is trapped sort of speak next to the skin... It seems far fetched... but , well , i don't hose off backs/rump/necks till sundown.. :-)

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 10:04 am:

Thanks Ann! No wonder they hate it!!!!

OK, only legs - inside thigh I guess is a large femoral artery - big blood supply, underneck (I guess it helps cool the blood to the brain -- gutteral pouches -- just read this)and belly during the day... I'm also boarding a poor little shetland pony until Tuesday, she's got a WINTER coat! I've been fully hosing her four times a day. I give her a cup of grain in front of the fan til she dries...but still... Poor thing... It also takes me longer to scrape the water off than it does to cool her down...

I think it makes sense Ann, thanks again!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 7:08 pm:

The icelandic didn't do so well today, head down and lethargic, when his head didn't come up after the neck, belly, chest and legs hose, I fully hosed him... Then his head came up. Poor guy...at least now he's realized the mister is a GOOD thing and stands under it!

The 34 year old shetland however, did much better today, I only had to hose her once so far...will of course fully hose and scrape her after sunset.

Misters and sprinklers have been going all day, my water bill is going to tremendous! But that's ok, much better than a vet visit!! 112 here right now..ug.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 11:25 pm:

Aileen, what part of CA are you in? (I think you've mentioned it before but I've forgotten.) I just looked at the weather and it said the heat in the west is to continue. We've been around 100 the last several days and very humid. Thanks goodness we have our own well, so don't worry about the water bill; but the electric bill will be sky high with irrigation pumps running almost constantly, plus extra water for the barn and yard. Like everyone we'll be glad when it finally cools down to normal again.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 11:34 pm:

I'm actually in the foothills (2000 feet), if you can believe that and it's going to be hotter tomorrow. yip. ee. I think it's hotter in the barn than at my house...Never used to be this way...

They're telling us we'll be in the mid 90's by the weekend though, so that will be a welcome change. On the news I saw there's a lot of heat exhaustion today. We don't have much humidity tho thank goodness, I do not see how you handle that!

Still 100 ...at 8:30 pm. Stay cool!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 10:38 am:

I was thinking you were in that area. My in-laws used to live in Auburn area.

It hasn't been cooling down here in the evenings as much as it normally does. We don't have a/c (never need it!) My barn is cooler than the house by quite a few degrees. We keep getting t-storms, but they are more lightening than rain. Very worrisome. 45 fires started yesterday! Luckily, they were all put out before they grew into big fires. A house a few miles from us was hit by lightening, also! At his rate, I'll be very glad for fall. Bet you will,too!

Stay cool and take care!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 11:23 am:

In my experience it is okay to hose off the entire horse. Starting with the chest and legs is fine, then hose off the remainder. Before the last couple of Olympics, experiments and studies were done about the best way to cool down a horse, and results did not exclude portions of the body. It is suggested to hose and then use the sweat scraper to remove the water (which gets hot due to the horse's body temperature). Then re-hose and scrape, re-hose and scrape, as long as it takes to get the horse cooled down. I hope your hot weather changes soon!
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 2:04 pm:

I'm experiencing awful heat also here in AZ - it was up to 123 on Friday! My horse's hair falls out when it's hot and he looks miserable. I've been hosing him twice a day. He got new shoes 2 weeks ago and my farrier said "Absolutely DO NOT get his feet wet any more!" I guess they were falling apart with all of the water they were getting. So now I wrap his feet in plastic garbage bags when hosing him off. Fun!

My farrier saw him again 2 weeks after shoeing him and his feet have improved in those 2 weeks. I was amazed how quickly they improved. It made the inconvenience worth it.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 2:38 pm:

Dawn,
I used to live in Georgia and there was a lot of rain. Plus the soil was clay so it would pull the shoes right off.

A farrier gave me this tip and it worked great. On clean, dry feet apply clear Liquid Nails (you can get it at any hardware store) over all the horse shoe nail holes. Let dry. Re-apply when it wears off.

The nail holes expand and contract as they get wet and then dry. That is what loosens the shoes and ultimately trashes the rest of the foot.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 2:41 pm:

Dawn,
You must be in the Phx area. It's hot as H down here in Tucson, so I know how you and your horse must be suffering. Do you have fans, misters?
The way it's been, we need to hose ourselves off just to take care of our horses.
Take Care
Shirl
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 2:41 pm:

Dawn - 123!!!! Guess I'll quit whining about only 100!
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 2:51 pm:

Okay, I'll quit whining about 98, BUT it is a HUMID 98 here in Ga.! YUK!!
Nancy
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 3:30 pm:

Oh my, Sara! That's TOO close for comfort! I have been lucky (phtu phtu phtu) no dry lightening...yet...

OK, I'll quit whining too...well, ok, one last one...I do NOT see how you guys handle this heat! I don't even want to think about humidity! It's "only" 102 here at noon...and they say it will top at 104...yeah...no...don't think so...

Thank you Vicki, yes that's what I do, hose/scrape until the horse is cool to the touch...

Dawn, thank you for the tip on watching the feet too :-) I will remember that and pass it along to my icelandic boarder....she's going to have to do a lot more hosing this week I think... thank goodness she's back from her trip!!

Everybody try to stay cool and take care of yourselves!
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 4:56 pm:

I am thinking of all you guys in the heat. I hate when it gets cold up here in the winter, but at least I can put more clothes on. I don't think I will complain about the cold winters up here anymore, cause I don't think I could ever handle 100+ temps in the summer.

We were finding it unbearable with 95 degrees the other day and now it is back down to 75.

I laugh at our television stations. The thermo hits 90 degrees, and they are warning people to stay in, and keep cool and drink lots of liquids. They haven't a clue what heat is compared to you folks!!

I am sending cool thoughts your way, and I am praying that your temps will start to cool down for you. I feel for you all and the animals.

Try and keep cool

Shawna
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 4:59 pm:

oh, forgot to ask.

Is it a rumour or does excessive water on hooves cause White Line disease. I have a Conditioning video from a trainer in Texas, and he very seldom washes his horses, for the sole reason that it causes white Line.

Anyone know if there is truth to that. I guess I should look it up in Dr. O's articles.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 6:15 pm:

Shirley,

Yes, I'm in North Scottsdale. The boarding barn that I'm at has misters but the electrical system cannot support fans so they sit in a humid stall with no breeze. I think that's why Remy has bald patches.

Shawna, when my farrier told me that his feet were falling apart because of the moisture I asked about WLD. He said "not yet but there is the possibility because the fungus loves wet".

I've heard mixed reviews about Keratex (a well-respected farrier friend of mine says it doesn't do any good) but I'm giving it a try.

It's been relatively humid here also which really makes it miserable. Of course, our humidity isn't really humid (15%) but when it's 110 out it's awful.

When we are finished riding at 7:00 in the morning we say to our horse "OK - let's go take a shower together". We get almost as wet as the horse!
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 6:38 pm:

Shawna, my horse is showing the signs of the start of white line because I think of the wet ground. My trimmer says spray Lysol on the white line after cleaning and digging out the crumbly area. Never heard that one, but I am going to give it a try. I cant find formaldehyde which is what I think Dr o recommends. I think Iodine is good also. I don't think they know for sure about the wet or whether it is bacterial or fungicidal so its best to use something that treats both. There are lots of different views on what causes it. Dr O what do you think of the Lysol thing? He said that's what they say to use in the barefoot association
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 6:42 pm:

Aileen I thought australia was hot. 113 thats too hot for me.
Dawn let me know how you like Keratex,
Stay cool.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 6:52 pm:

Katrina,

The Keratex has formalin in it. Dr O's article goes into good detail about hooves. You can buy it online. It claims to prevent moisture absorption while still allowing the hoof to breathe.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 8:10 pm:

Thanks Dawn, I read all the articles. and yes it sounds good, but I am one of those who need to hear results before I believe the product. so I would love too hear from you after you have used it and what you think. That is if you dont mind.
Katrina
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 8:36 pm:

I used fungidye and that worked for me, but the main thing was taking away all of the hoof wall in the infected area. I just read an article that was recommended on this site to soak in water with a small amount of boraxo, but that Clean Trax is the best product to use in stubborn cases of WLD. The article also implied that the horse should not be getting "white line" (and also that there is an over-amount of cases erroneously diagnosed) unless it is immune-suppressed.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 10:19 pm:

Only 109 in the barn! woohoo. But the pony is cool and the icey is looking much better, I'm sure it's because his mom took good care of him today :-)

I can vouch for keratex...it does work...well, at least it helps... I haven't used it in awhile, and I need to... When I see a bunch of nail holes, I put some on for 3 days in a row, and then by the next shoeing his feet are better...I need to do that again tho...Farriers don't like it because it does seem to harden the hoof...takes more elbow grease to shoe the horses...

Vicki, thanks for the info on the wld...

Dawn, I don't envy you...ug. Good luck with the keratex! You may have to use it for quite a while to see a difference.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 6:53 am:

Excessive wetting and drying of the hooves is terrible for the horn as this removes the normal waxes and oils that preserve the proteins moisture and allows for the growth of microorganisms. We deal with preventing this at Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview. Though WLD has overdiagnosed, at least in our area, I do not know of any evidence that it has to do with immune suppression but have seen it in herd situations suggesting a contagious or management factor. Since this is a disease of the dead tissues, the immune system seems very unlikely to be involved.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 8:45 am:

I don't know about white line disease (never had it, knock on wood - or ptuu,ptuu) I do know Dr. O. is right on with the going form wet to dry. When we first moved here, we turned our horses out right after irrigating. Then they would come into their dry pen/stall for the night. Almost all of our horses developed hoof problems of one sort or another - chipping, pealing, cracking, tender soles, thrush. Since we started letting the fields dry out before rotating between the fields and pens/stalls, we have no more hoof problems. (Fields are not just wet after irrigation, but very wet with standing water in many areas.)

Really nice out here about 5a.m. Temps are headed back down, too. Only going to be in low 90's today...hot, but much better than low 100's.

You people in Scottsdale and parts south...it's hot down there in the wintertime! What do you do, ride at night and sleep during the daytime?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 10:16 am:

What is excessive Dr. O!? I've had the misters going for 4 days now and their paddocks are wet. WET. We will be cooling down, but not for at least 2 more days...thank you!
Member:
Christel

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 11:37 am:

Sara, my brother once worked in Mesa Arizona in the summer. He said about 1:00 pm, everyone working outdoors quits, takes a siesta for a few hours then go back to work about 5 pm. It is entirely tooo hot to work in the middle of the day.
I too will quit whining about the high 90's we are experiencing- well, will try-lol
Chris
Member:
Frances

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 12:02 pm:

Aileen, I may well be wrong but I THINK hooves don't suffer as much when they're constantly in a damp environment as when they're wet and then immediately dried. The molecules of water take up space within the horn, and if they are quickly exposed to heat and dryiness immediately afterwards, the water evaporates leaving empty spaces, which weaken the hoof.

That's how it was explained to me once (maybe that's the Keratex explanation, come to think of it?).

Lynn
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 12:13 pm:

Aileen,

That is a question I have been asking also ("What's excessive?").

My horse has misters and a big water bin in his stall which creates humidity and I was wondering if that creates excessive moisture.

I am going by the assumption that as long as the hoof is not saturated then it is ok. It is the absorption of moisture that causes the hoof to expand and if there is little to absorb then it should be ok. I don't think misters create enough water for too much absorption. If they are standing in ankle deep water that would be a different story.

I might be wrong but that is how I'm managing it right now because it is impossible to keep him out of the misters and humidity right now.

Sara, 8 months out of the year is gorgeous here - I ride at 5:30 in the afternoon. It's just these 4 months that everybody rides at 5:00am. Night-time is no good because the ground and buildings generate heat absorbed from the sun - at least by 5am things are starting to cool down a little.

During the winter it is so nice that every morning I wake up and say "This is why I live here". You kind of forget the summer until it's here again! :-)
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 3:40 pm:

Thank you LL and Dawn, I'm going to keratex their feet tonight...just in case... the pony hasn't left yet...she's barefoot, so nail holes aren't the problem. She's just so ancient! and tiny!! So when I say the paddock is wet, I'm afraid the wetness is almost 3/4 up her little hooves...I don't want to hurt her inadvertently while trying to keep her cool.

The heat will last until Friday unfortunately, but at least it's on the way down! :-)
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 8:10 pm:

Chris, my parents lived in East Texas for many years, and in the summer that is what they did also. Just hung out in the afternoon. I remember being wet all the time. It's the only place I've ever been that I got sweaty in the swimming pool!

Dawn, I think it is the going back and forth from wet to dry that is so hard on the hooves, not just being wet.

It is pretty in AZ and the weather is really nice down there in the winter, but I don't think the heat of summer would be worth it. I'm dying of heat up here! Only another month to go and it will start cooling off again. Just a hot year.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:50 am:

My sister-in-law lives in Suprise, Arizona. When the temperatures get to 110 to 120, that is unbelieveable heat. It feels like you're standing in the hot exhaust of an 18 wheeler or a bus, but the trouble is, you can't walk out of it

They shut down amusement rides in the middle of the day so you don't get burnt. I got burnt on my SEAT BELT BUCKLE!! That's scarey hot!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:46 am:

Excessive would be enough to adversely effect the horn. Temperature of the water, length of time between wetting and drying, frequency of exposure, presence of detergents (shampoo), hoof treatments, natural qualities of the hoof and probably dozens of other factors will effect what is more water than the hoof can deal with without becoming weaker.

Water exposure comes in two forms, that which you cannot help and that which you can. The real point here is to avoid any unnecessary exposure that you can control and when, in spite of doing this, the hoof starts becoming dry, you use effective treatments to prevent further drying. If you want to be proactive, I suggest you treat whenever you horse's hooves are getting more exposure to water than normal.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 8:11 am:

Y'all want to feel cooler? Go back and read some of the winter threads about hauling sloshing buckets of water due to frozen pipes and bitter winds while tears freeze on your cheeks...clearing mountainous snow drifts from the barn doors so you can even pry them open. Cursing the fact that you have to plow in your pyjamas before work--again!! All of the above done in the pre-dawn blackness.

I'll take summer any day! (Now hand me that iced coffee!)

Maybe we should set up a "guest swap" thread. Those of us with extra stalls/rooms can do vacation trades for year-round comfort. I'd gladly take in a Southerner for a chance to thaw out in January...Margaritas and garden tours included!

Here's hoping all you Arizonans survive the blast furnace--and remember how envious the rest of us are all year!
God bless all of you dealing with that beastly heat.
Erika
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 9:54 am:

I prefer summer to winter anytime!!

We finally got rain here in upper MI, and it is a little humid but not expected to hit 80 today. I can handle this, except the humidity does make my dizzy and sick to my stomach sometimes.

Yup, I'll take in a horse and owner for the summer months if I can get out of here in January or February. A dip in Lake Superior, and I gaurantee you'll be chilled no matter what the air temp is!!! People walk out in it, and their legs go numb and they need to be rescued! Now that's a chilling thought, huh?

If I had a big fan, I'd blow some cool air for you still being scorched.

Anyone with extra rain, I'll take that...we are still dry even with about 1" the last 24 hours.

This too shall pass.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 10:28 am:

Thank you Dr. O, I treated last night...pony goes home this morning... I hope...

Erika and Angie ... LOL... some of us just may take you up on that...not that you would want to come here tho :-)

I think it's what we're used to...and this heat is extraordinary...no one here is used to it. Many heat related deaths, unfortunately. Animals as well...it's a sad reality. But as I said before, the heat is starting to come down slightly and we'll be back to our "normal" heat by Friday. Thank goodness!!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:29 pm:

Erika And, let's see...we all do all this...because...?????!!

Remember, there are some people that sit in the warm in the winter, air conditioned in the summer, homes and never go outside in inclimate weather, except to hop into their comfortable car to drive to the comfortable mall!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 5:08 pm:

Has anyone ever tried using Desitin (or generic) diaper cream on the hooves before exposure to water? I put it on the back of my horse's feet some times of the year to prevent dew poisoning. It keeps moisture off for quite a period of time -- better than the hoof ointments I have tried.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:02 pm:

Sara,
I just had to comment. I work with hundred of people who do nothing after work except get into their air conditioned car drive to their air conditioned garage, and go into their air conditioned house. They don't know what to say when I tell them I feed and muck stalls in the morning, I drive 100 miles round trip every day to and from work then I spend three hours every night feeding, and mucking stalls, before I fix dinner. I was over a hundred last week, it's 98 today, more 100's forecast for next week. I guess the vacation's over. We could be in Europe where there is record heat and horrible air quality as well. Lots of death's there too.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:45 pm:

Judith, it's horrible almost everywhere right now...I hope I didn't imply that my situation was the only bad one ...

btw, your schedule sounds exactly like mine :-)

Vicki, I wonder about that too, or vaseline?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:50 pm:

Vicki, Desitin is great stuff! I use it for lots of things, but have never used it as a hoof dressing, though I can see where it would work. I mostly use it in mud season to keep horses from getting scratches. It's great for foals' "bottoms" too when they have scours. The same "waterproofness" that helps in those situations would help protect the hoof.

Judith, I know what you mean! I don't have your schedule now, but did for many years (if you add raising a few boys in there too.) Now I'm lucky and can afford to hire a girl to help out with the barn chores; but, due to the heat, humidity, and flies they bring, I get up early to clean the stalls and pens before the flies gather!

Imo those indoor people miss out on a lot of life! We complain about the heat, and in the winter about the cold, and the extra effort and work that's involved, but there is a lot we get out of it too, or we wouldn't be doing it!

I laugh at the women's magazines that have the articles about keeping your hair "neat and cool looking" and show cute little sundresses as the fashion. They do "make-overs" with women at the beach, shopping, etc. and how much better they look with a shorter haircut, the right balm to keep the frizz down, etc. I've always wanted one of those magazines to do an article using several horsewomen or ranch wives and showing how they can look so much better while doing their chores in the heat. I'm just sure that wearing the right clothes and hair-style instead of my jeans or worn cotton schooling pants and baggy t-shirt,ponytailed hair, and beat up straw hat would make me feel a lot cooler and a lot better! Horses would probably appreciate a little more class in the barn, too! then in the winter the magazine could target a pulled together winter barn look, instead of the sweat pants,etc. I usually wear!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:53 pm:

Vaseline is wonderful for getting manure out of a tail. I don't know if it has quite as much cling as Desitin for keeping things dry. Vaseline is also great for preventing girth rubbing on "soft" horses. It only got about 88 degrees here today but with a very high dew point so it felt very hot. In Florida we expect heat, but are getting off easily compared to other areas this summer. We ride 3 - 4 hours this time of year and never miss more than a couple of trail rides each summer due to heat.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:58 pm:

Sara -- Thanks for a great idea. I'm going to rub some around my paint horse's butt since this time of year it gets a bit on the messy side, though this is one of the best summers ever, thanks to things I've learned here on HA. Vaseline in the tail, Desitin underneath!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 8:28 pm:

Vickie-but you've got all those bugs out in Florida!!

Now I've got to gry the vasaline in the tail for manure. Wonder if it will work for mud/red dirt as well!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 8:29 pm:

Ooops! I meant "try" not "gry." Only one half glass of wine, honest!
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 9:06 pm:

We have resorted to jumping into the pool, then putting our breeches on over the wet bathing suits and going for a ride. The wet hair and wet bathing suits work great. We also give the horses a squirt before we saddle up. we will all look back on this and laugh next winter.
Member:
Christel

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 10:07 am:

I guess if we all chose to we could have 24/7 ac, and sit around complaining how durn hot it is. But I can't imagine life w/o horses and the heat and all the hard work that comes w/ it.
I call it 'character building' and have actually gotten use to the heat and it doesn't bother me as much as the poor person who never has to go out into it.
We will be one step ahead of those that pamper themselves if we are ever involved in a blackout will be the better for it.
Sara- I don't have ac either- love my $50. electric bill in the summer.
National Geographic in this months issue has a great story on Katrina and possible hurricanes coming up- focus' on global warming- one scientist says we are doomed, even if we stopped now and tried to correct the situation of global warming, it is too late, that in 10 years all hell is going to break loose.
All of us w/ horses have built up so much character-lol- we will be better off- Please tell me I am correct, that all the sweat and tired aching muscles will make me a more durable human even at age 62 when 'all hell breaks loose'.
Chris
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 10:26 am:

I think you're correct Chris

Shelley, great idea about the pool! I just play in the sprinklers with the horses, and while hosing them, I inevitably get hosed too...so it's all good :-)

Sara, you crack me up :-)
Member:
Sonoita

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 2:20 pm:

Hay Everybody,
Do the bugs come with the heat also or are they hiding here in Colorado till it cools off your way.LOL I wet my guys and then they roll and it keeps them cooler longer and the bugs that are visiting do not seem to mess with them as bad. I have the preditors and fly spray and sticky tapes and still they are at the point of swarming my guys. So add that to the heat and they get pretty miserable. I put vicks vapor on and the bugs don't like me.Ha! Neither does anything else. I think I could handle the heat if I did not have to handle the bugs Maybe!
I lived in Florida so I am used to the heat or so I thought.
Got to go and drag my self out and clean the stalls so the bugs will not carry my horses and goats off.
Happy Trails,
Wanda
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 4:07 pm:

I think the bugs, at least the flies, come with the heat and humidity. I bought fans for all my stalls ($10 ea. at Walmart for big square ones) The stalls are almost fly/bug free. I've started turning the horses out at night when it's a little cooler and no flies. Now I have birds sitting on the ledges in the breeze.

I can take a dry heat. It's the humidity I'm not used to at all! Up to 70% by early afternoon. I'm used to about 12%.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 4:44 pm:

Alieen,
I'm so sorry I didn't mean to say anything to make you think that. Everyone is having this problem. I had just heard a radio report on how bad it was in Europe and wanted to share. Sorry again, I should have been less Poignant.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 4:45 pm:

And to boot I spelled your name wrong! Sorry Aileen!!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 5:57 pm:

Judith, I thought maybe I typed something that came out wrong, not you! btw...everyone spells and pronounces it wrong...I take absolutely NO offense :-)

Wanda, the flies are terrible...but the good news is, so are the dragonflies :-) I haven't seen a mosquito in about 3 weeks!

Sara, the humidity has left us...hoping it leaves you soon as well...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 8:11 pm:

Me, too! though with 3 big, new fires to our south, and all the smoke blowing this way, I'd really like a good rain before the humidity leaves us. Usually, with the weather like it is, I take off for day long rides in the mountains, but with Libby's injury I've been sticking around home to keep her stall really clean, change her water, etc. And, then, there's the remodel! I'm sure it will be wonderful when it is done, but I'm ready to just live in the barn or in the house with no kitchen and send the contractors home!!

Ah, well. "this, too, shall pass." As my grandma used to say. October is my favorite month and it will be here before we know it.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 3:15 am:

Gosh, you know, you guys are right! Here I've been feeling like such a wuss because I'm not racing around like always in this heat. I just realized, I'm doing 200% more than my non-horsey friends. If there is one thing our equine friends do for us, it's keeping us perpetually moving - no matter what.

I do have problems with global warming though. Before there were people polluting this planet, we had two ice ages that ended due to global warming. Why? Why, in the 1970's were the environmental doom criers predicting the new "Ice Age", due to pollution of the planet by humanity? They kept showing me proof with "scientific articles" and photographs that showed the polar ice caps growing at an alarming rate.

I've done a lot of traveling in my life, but my home has always been NJ. The fifties and sixties brought horrendous hurricanes, huge blizzards, 100+ heat waves ( no ac back then ) and long DrOughts. My mom, born in 1910 saw similar cycles in her lifetime as did her mother born in 1885.

Sorry, I've just had it with all the "scientific findings" predicting horrendous catastrophes including the population explosion that would wipe out humanity due to famine and disease while my generation felt an obligation to uphold zero population growth. "They" predict, predict, predict....like the disaster "they" promised on Y2K. And have you ever noticed? Most of the "experts" are actors and actresses....people who play dress up and pretend for a living. Naawww, I think it's just hot, hot, hot. And before long, it's gonna be cold, cold, cold.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 8:42 am:

Last night I caught the last hour of a Global Warming show on tv. I actually thought the so called "Scientific Evidence" was pretty darn convincing.

And the last part of the show was about little things we can do to slow down how much carbon dioxide goes into the atmosphere which will slow down the green house affect, as I understood it. By being frugal with everything, we can help. Use flourescent light bulbs, turn off things when not in use, buy locally grown food, (the semi's hauling burn gas....it's all a big trickle down affect)recycle, etc.

They showed how "green" NY city is becoming..now that was interesting. Using hybrid public transportatin, and neat ways with new buildings.

I had this discussion with my husband last night and he says we give mankind too much "credit for the blame" or something like that. I disagree, I say we are to blame. And I also think this is all part of the natural cycle, BUT, we are speeding it up and I think earth is dealing with more crap than ever before in history.

If the S*** hits the fan though, we probably won't be around to argue this though, will we??

The sad part, IMO, concerning last nights show, was the news that good ol' America was not part of the program (don't remember what it was called) that has the goal off cutting down on the things (factories, cars) that are causing the green house affect to accelerate. And China is getting worse at an alarming rate because they are building factories more all the time.

I think the problem here is that no one wants to sacrafice, it's all about number 1. If the factories wanted to cut wages for example, because they had to bring their pollution control methods up to date, there would be a horrible back lash from employees. Most people are up to their eye balls in debt, and we are all used to a certain standard of living.

The way I see it though, if things don't change we will all be paying more for everything. (NO, I am not in favor of cutting wages, just throwing that out there) We have higher gas as we are so dependent on foreign oil. The heat and DrOught will drive food prices up also because food will be more scarce. Our water supply is already maxed out in some areas and getting worse.

As horse owners, we will pay too. How many of us are paying more this year for lower qualilty hay, all due to the weather?

So, o.k., I'll cool my fingers here!! Maybe this is just hot, hot, hot, and maybe it will be nice and cold this winter. More "normal"

But how long should we wait for "normal?" Why not do something, anything, that may help lower the temp?

The show last night said we are going up a few degrees a decade, instead of over 100(s) of years.....something to that effect.

Ha, Lee, you probably started a whole new discussion here. And Chris, I have to read the National Geographic article, just glanced at it and wasn't in the mood to read that kind of stuff.
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 9:07 am:

Whatever the models predict, conservation is always a good thing! Whether it is turning off the lights, recycling everything that can be recycled, buying more energy efficient appliances, etc. etc.

I am especially concerned about water - here on the Colorado front range, water supply is always a "hot" topic.

Lilo
Member:
Christel

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 9:32 am:

Lilo, me too. We get our water from the Ogalalla Aquifer- the worlds largest by the way- it stretches from Midland/Odessa Tx. to Nebraska- without wells and such we would be desolute here. Without water no one survives.
Angie the scientists that paints the picture of doom and gloom has an essay in NG close to the front if I am remembering correctly.
I am still on the fence with global warming- having read Michael Creightons book "State of Fear" a novel that supposedly he did much research to write and he purposes the government must keep us all in 'state of fear' so they can control us better.
I think most scientists believe we are headed for danger, am hoping they are wrong, in the meantime it sure doesn't hurt to walk where you can, turn off the lights, turn off the water while brushing teeth, and dangit- turn off those ac's- they say they really contribute to global warming- just kidding- easy for me to say since I don't have one :-)
Chris
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 10:40 am:

If you look at tree rings in petrified wood and other such evidence, you can see that DrOughts, wet years, hot years, cold years, have all been cyclical. It's my opinion that man hasn't really been on the planet long enough to really know what is "normal" That being said, I do believe that conservation is important, but I don't feel a need to panic about global warming. I can remember winters on Long Island, NY, when the snow was 3'deep and Peconic Bay was frozen solid enough to drive across it in a truck.( I lived there for a few years as a child) I also remember a summer of huge storms there when many houses got washed away and cars and refrigerators were floating in the streets.

And heat waves sure aren't anything new, here or in the rest of the world. There was a heat wave in Europe around 1911 that killed thousands of people. Histories of DrOughts and floods and big storms have been around since biblical times.


As far as this summer's heat goes, did any of you read how it is affecting the livestock industry in California? I just read that thousands of cows and fowl have died, and the others aren't breeding due to the heat. So...expect higher meat prices and dairy food prices soon.
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 3:16 pm:

It is the Kyoto treaty. Yes, you are correct the US refused to sign. Leilani
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 11:48 pm:

It is so very sad about the kyoto treaty, Leilani ... I can't wait til 2008.

Chris, I'm in a vanpool and I feel guilty when I have to drive my big old truck to work now :-) AC is set at 80 until 8 pm then it goes to 78...

Sara, not only cows and fowl, but horses too, and the human count has gone up again...very sad...

We also had our first two human cases of WNV a couple of hours away...
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 12:56 am:

I believe the Kyoto Treaty is a ploy to hinder and destroy inventiveness and prosperity here in the United States and other countries. It is a means to control.
I have to agree with Brian here, Angie. I really don't think we humans are nearly as powerful as we think we are. All it takes is an epidemic, a tsunami, a few hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanos . . . to remind us of our powerlessness. The earth is a lot stronger than we know . . . and we are like ants on it's surface.
We should be good stewards, but it seems that we can easily confuse ideas of wise stewardship with meaning that we should return to primitive living conditions. Matter never disappears. The amount of matter stays the same. We have changed the composition of some matter to make life easier and safer here on earth (plastic is one example) . . . Necessity is the mother of invention . . . Invention can be used for good or evil, but creating new techniques and tools is not evil in itself. Controlling by fear and intimidation IS evil, though, and I agree that we don't have to look far to find those who are trying to do just that.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 8:48 am:

There seem to be 3 issues here:
1) Is the world getting hotter?
2) Is it because of human activity?
3) If man is the cause is KYOTO a suitable method for dealing with it.

Taking these issues in order:

1) I think the majority of scientist will agree the world is about 1/2 degree warmer this century. Transient hot spells, cold spells, DrOughts, etc..have always been with us however.

2) CO2 is a gas that increases the trapping of heat on the earth and that it has gone up in the last century. This is one tiny part of a very large and complicated equation that determines our climate. Currently there are no models that accurately predict climate. Looking at just the green house gas side of the equation there are many gases that act as such with the number one being water vapor which may account for as much as 75% of the green house effect, CO2 as little as 9%. (NOTE: one way to determine if a article is looking at the issue fairly is whether or not it brings up this fact or states erroneously that the major ghg is CO2). It should be noted that CO2 concentrations in the last 100 years have risen 30% from about 0.027 % to 0.036 % of the atmosphere. Since the level of CO2 gas remained stable the preceding 10,000 years this seems most likely due to man's activity. The problem is no one knows how this effects the climate equation.

We are finding that the sun is growing warmer. Records of sunspot activity suggest that solar output has been rising slightly for about 100 years. However, only measurements of solar irradiance gathered by satellites orbiting since 1978 really measure output. It too shows a warming trend over the last 30 years. Recently polar ice caps on Mars have been shrinking, which may or may not indicate global warming occurring on Mars.

3) So we have seen a increase of 87 parts per million in CO2 levels. This is a 0.0087% increase as a percent of the total atmospheric gases in CO2 levels and a 30% increase of CO2 alone. We have seen a half degree F increase in average world temperatures. We have evidence that the sun has been growing warmer over the last 100 years. The relation between these 3 factors and the change in our climate, a 1/2 degree increase, remains conjectural and only part of a very complicated scenerio.

At its simplest, the Kyoto Treaty seeks to address the problem by charging advanced countries for CO2 emissions. The hope is that this will reduce emissions. For those who think this is a well designed solution they should carefully study what is happening to New Zealand under the effects of this treaty which is signed. Using NZ as a example Holly is right this treaty has the potential to damage the economies of advanced countries for a goal that is likely to have a uncertain, and possibly no effect on global warming.

If you feel that it is important to reduce man's effect on the climate, while allowing man's standard of living to improve, this will only be achieved through the advances provided by the science, technology, and industry of advanced nations. Impairing the economies of such countries will hamstring such progress and in my opinion make Kyoto a harmful treaty to the climate.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 9:05 am:

Hmmm, I really hesitate to join in a political discussion on the fact or fiction of global warming--but here goes the plunge!

Holly, I don't know if the US needs to be part of Kyoto, we are still relatively pristine compared to some of the world. We just fortunately went through our "dirtiest" era when our population was lower than that of emerging economies now.

A country of a billion people going through industrialization like what happened in america (in the late 1800, only several million, pretty spread out)is going to make a much huger impact on the planet until they, too have the capital, and the desire to improve their output of waste and pollution.

IMO, the reason for the need for this treaty is apparent any time you fly into the Mexico City basin where the smog is so thick you can't see the city, let alone figure out how anyone can breathe there.

Also, almost anywhere in China the air is so bad that you can literally see how it is denuding trees, corroding structures, etc., pretty powerful stuff! Flying over places like Bombay is the same story.

And I am not just talking about immediate city areas like what we sometimes get here over LA and such. This is blackness that could cover small countries, seen from high enough to see the curvature of the earth!

I'm convinced that man is powerful enough to really mess up the environment incredibly, BUT, I don't necessarily believe in the doomsday predictions about global warming being caused so rapidly by us.

Given enough care, the earth does heal itself incredibly well, but lets not base our global environmental view on our relatively clean and aware modern countries.

Pollution is a serious issue in the world even if global warming is out of the picture. A recent medical mission to Central America showed us that nearly every patient we saw had asthma, or emphysema-no matter what their age.

I don't mean to be on the soapbox, but I just wanted to share some first-hand observations of the impact that humans have that we don't usually see at home.

American companies and governments have worked very hard to change the levels of output of harmful pollutants. It has made a difference in many ways. I hope the rest of the world follows our example.

Okay, ready, set, attack! I can take it! We all have different views.
Erika
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 9:55 am:

Doesn't every one of us expel Co2 in our breath everyday? just the fact of population explosion is a problem? isn't this adding to any global warming...

Erika been to mexico city on one of those days, its disgusting. But then again i've also been to milan and that city has had a grey cast to it for centuries. its awful too. I went to see the last supper in high school. then went to see it a few years after they rehabbed it. I swear it put the art world on its knees, all those centuries of paintings were thought to be dull and drab when in fact they were brite and brilliant colors...

I have no idea what the kyoto treaty is, but going to find out.

I think that the stats Dr. O wrote down say to me its the people of this planets fault. If we were taken out of the equation would the earth still be having all this increased warming? who knows... I don't think so. i think we are the root of it. but on ALL levels. population, environment, chemicals... etc..

True, The earth is a dynamic entity. But, when you add something to the mix, like increased Co2 will that change the dynamic to the point where one day just to go outside we have to wear masks? so we can live to 30?

There was a good discussion on being green on another forum.. even the gas discussion of using other forms of fuel. From what i read there is no solution there yet either. E85, hyDrOgen,cold fusion, even electric.. nothing is getting solved without exploiting other problems.

who mentioned plastic? i think that is the bane of the world.. really...and this isn't a political conversation, isn't it an environmental one? And the word responsibility hasn't come up yet.. Each part of the world is responsible for their part, but who is responsible for it all as one giant, evolving dynamic form..

i can't complain about the heat, I live in florida and its actually not bad with all the rain...And tho i love my AC i hate my AC bill. for those that go from car to house to work and never step outside? I feel sorry for them. they don't understand the pleasures of nature. which this conversation ultimately is about. How many are becoming extinct as a secondary global warming problem...from deforestation and all that. And its happening on every corner of the world

someone mentioned excessive water for the hoof... So conflicting... people like strasser advocate daily water immersion for the hoof. Some don't. I don't know who to believe anymore. Except my horse. when the ring around her coronet gets mushy, then its over saturated. Or frog is gummy...and work on it accordingly. But hosing, or misting your horse daily can't be a bad thing. just DON'T shampoo. takes out the natural oils...

thrush is the problem to worry about, not WLD... in this wet season i put a little iodine in the cracks, and the frog sulcus, and throw a bit of pine tar paint over it. same as the coronet band. and i rasp myself a bit on toes to keep cracks from getting worse.

good thread. I love how these threads happen upon me on saturday mornings, so i can drink my coffee and read these instead of the newspaper...
Member:
Christel

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 10:37 am:

jojo- back to the wet hoofs. I have in the past soaked my horses feet due to dryness, I too got confused on reading the posts and was wondering if doing this was good or bad- still don't know.
A few months ago I got on the barefoot kick and was surfing the net on the subject. I came across and endurance rider in the Houston area, cant remember her name, but she mentioned that bare foot just wouldn't work unless water was involved. She recommended that every horse should have a pond that they could go in daily and their hoofs would remain perfect, and that with out the water the natural trim just wouldn't work.
I live in a semi-arrid environment. My horses hoofs can be so hard when it is dry, and it usually is. Occasionally tho we do have wet weather and the horses will develop thrush. It always disappears on its own, we never stay wet for long periods.
This is a great post. Today I put my seat belt on while on the fence, sure don't want to fall off, kinda like it on the fence- can agree and disagree and stay right in the middle surrounded by good people on both sides of the fence-lol.
Take care all and try to have a great horsey day,
Chris
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 1:42 pm:

Oh, OH, getting to be a political discussion, LOL!!

Hmmm......I need to research the Kyoto treaty. And my husband told me to search the net and see what I could find out about the ice age that was predicted 30 years ago also.

O.K., so we all seem to agree the climate is getting warmer.

No one can seem to prove who/what is causing it.
There are many factors.

I think it is reasonable to say that WE are contributing to it, but how much is the $10,000,000.00 question.

DrO, many good facts presented. Didn't know about the sun, or ice caps on Mars. I used to spend time reading about that kind of stuff, now I just read HA posts.

I think my bottem line is I get the feeling so many, especially politicians, and big business owners, are all after the almighty dollar and I don't think that doing what is good for the environment, and mankind is at the top of their agenda. Not all fall into this catagory of course.

And how to balance it all out? We want the latest, greatest, fastest, everything. Technology is fantastic no doubt. And I have to believe that we can use that knowledge to solve many of these problems.

Holly, I think that you make excellant points. There is a fine line here and what Brian's idea of "giving us too much credit for what's happening" VS my idea of "we are to blame" may actually be very close if we really examine it.

The pollution, the destruction of our natural resources.....these are man made. Even if they can't be proven to be increasing the green house heat, they are still detrimental to our life on earth and to earth itself.

Sometimes, I just shudder to think what our kids and grandkids will see in their environment. Will there be green grass, trees, blue skies? Wild life and song birds? Sandy beaches on the water that is safe to swim in?

I think that anything done to help solve this problem, and prevent it from getting worse, will have a very positive trickle down affect on the rest of the problems. Open everyone's eyes.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 5:48 pm:

Chris, Hiltrud Strasser has books out and i think this is where alot of this stems from..and one of her premises on hoofcare (many) is that the foot needs immersion at least once a day. the hoof is alive and breathing, and water is the source of many things and all the things we do leech the sole of certain vital elements soaking in water help put it back in.. with that she advocates also 24/7 out time and so on... all the components need to be met, to get the perfect hoof. (her theory). I've read all sorts of things about this, and i have backed off many. My terrain is so different from yours. My horse is different than the one down the street. etc..So its not a "gotta do" thing many times when you read stuff on these lists, or books... pick and choose for you...Is your horse stalled on dry bedding all day? or soaked urine? is the horse not balanced nutrition-wise? can it walk around 24/7...then you figure out if you need to soak based on things like that...

the lady on the net was probably a barefooter..the theory goes if the horses feet are too dry on a long term basis,than contraction can happen, too much contraction and the horse would be in pain, too much pain leads to other elements. and so on. So watering the hoof adds to the pliablity of it. For her and her horse, daily water immersion was necessary.

I don't need to do really anything except when its too much of one thing for too long. In a predominately dry climate i would think having a foot soak area is a good thing. For me on such soft wet sandy soil i have been contemplating a dry rock bed for her to walk thru a few times a day. Something to harden and toughen her feet.

When the feet are so hard you can't even trim them, i would consider that hard.. and soak accordingly. It has to be pliable. And give and take. too much of one thing and you start to have problems...So that is the problem with reading things on the net. Sounds like a good idea.. But is it the best idea for YOUR situation...

I also don't pick the feet like i used to. now that brandy is on 24/7 out time, i check them once a week, unless i ride.. After all these years reading about all this, the only true expert, is the horse...And she teaches the best.. they will tell you. Put out the components, and instinctively, they will do what needs to be done... good example when we stalled, i had a mineral block for her, she used to devour it constantly... Now here, where she is out and roaming getting other things from the pasture, trees, etc... the mineral block might last longer.. or hay that isn't all that great? i notice the mineral block is depleted more.

For me, and this heat, are nothing we are used to it. it's 90degrees most of the year..hot, humid, airy.. no big deal. wet and boggy. not a problem. Take me and my horse and put her in your situation and we'd be a mess...grin.. I feel for the horses not used to all this.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 6:54 pm:

Bravo, Dr. O! You should have/could have been a natural science teacher. some excellent points.

Re: CO2 People are not the only producers of CO2, and I'm not sure we're the biggest producers, how about all the other animals on this planet? While there are more people now, there are less of some of the animals; do they balance each other out? I don't know. I've read that cows are actually one of the biggest polluters.

I've also read that the distruction of the rain forests is one of the biggest reasons for global warming; then I've read that more trees are the reason for global warming. There's a new study, just out, from MIT (Massachusett's Institute of Technology) that challenges the theory that hurricane strength has been affected by increases in temperature. Not too long many years ago (20 or so) there were drawings in the papers that showed NYC incased in a glacier. It seems to me, that whatever you wish to believe, there is a study or a group that has an argument to support it.

Look how long the earth has been around, and in perspective, how long we've been around, and then, perspectively, the minute amount of time that there has been industrialization. I just am not convinced that we've been around long enough to even understand how the earth/world works and what is normal. I also, like Holly, am highly suspect of many who are putting forth arguments re: global warming - what are their ulterior motives? What politically can they gain?

I'm not saying we shouldn't be good caretakers of the world. Not at all. I think we should be. I just think we don't understand enough to know what is "normal" for the universe of which we are a part.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 7:49 pm:

Nature is not a laboratory.
It does not work with stable values, it works with mean values.
The way to adjust these mean values is fluctuations.
The same way night and day play their roles to feed and balance everything, summer and winter have their own functions, cold and warm years have their functions too.
Why would we want to believe that a larger scale fluctuation is unnatural ?
Are we sure that we want to stop it, even if we could? Then what?
Shall we also "equalise" the extreme heat in the summer and the bitter cold in the winter?
Maybe dim the midday sun a bit and add a touch of light in the night?

I am not a person of religion, but still,
Thank God we're not Gods !
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 8:36 pm:

This is a hard debate. But living in the us after Australia till my late 20's I was shocked when I came to this country. Sorry to you all. I did not feel at all like the politicians cared about the environment. When I left aus. They had banned styrofoam and all products that took too long too disintegrate. Large cars were looked at as a disgrace to the worlds oil supply and pollution. transport was mainly public to conserve oil and pollution. No one owned large cars and most people only used them on occasion they used bus's or bikes OR walked. Now I have been here for about 17 years and have Americanized but some part of me thinks where did that care of the environment go.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 12:23 am:

Hmmm...think I'll stay off of this fence for fear that I'll end up with a post in my tush!

Love reading all of YOUR opinions though!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 1:09 am:

Christos, I also thank God we aren't all gods! And not just on this issue.

It is my feeling that mankind rates himself as way too important. (womankind, also ) We credit ourselves with making a much bigger impact on the world, indeed on the universe, than we actually do. As far as the world is concerned, we are nothing, imo.

It's interesting when you go to Alaska and see the paths of the glaciers as all we read about is how the glaciers are all shrinking, but some of them are actually growing. That is the nature of glaciers, they grow and shrink, and grow again. They are "living" and continually changing. I think that is the way with the rest of the world. Locally, our fir forests are being decimated by beetles and a fungus which goes along with them. But, as awful as all the dead trees look, the forest isn't dead. It is changing. The firs are being replaced by Aspens and more grass. I wonder if this change didn't already take place where there are nothing but Aspens now.

This debate is probably one that isn't going to be solved here. It's a long way from the discussion regarding moisture and horses' hooves. but, hey, no one can't see we horse people aren't a thinking bunch and that we're only interested in horses! A lot of interesting, intelligent people here from all areas of life with a lot of different opinions.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 9:04 am:

Sara,

Applause, Applause, I liked your post very much. You make some wonderful points (and maybe this took your mind off of Libby briefly too, hope so,hang in thar)

Christos, You wrote very well also. Doesn't man try to equalize things sometimes? I think attempts to try and control nature would be very scary. Attempts to slow down and/or understand our effect on nature though isn't a bad thing.

We can argue that we are just little peons in the vast universe and have hardly no impact on the world. Or we can get into the "consciousness of all, and all is one" concept. Don't know if that falls under religion, or what you call it. I have read some books with that general theme and it makes you wonder.

Maybe it just means that if we all thought "save the world" and every single human followed that concept and his daily living reflected that.

It's funny, I think anyone against the idea of doing something to slow down global warming, or study it, has only $$ in mind, or more power to them as their goal. Others think that those harping about it have some kind of financial/political goal in mind.

We will probably never know who is right. Or even is anyone right or wrong? The heat/cold, DrOught/flooding, dryness/humidity, sunny/cloudy, dark/light concepts of nature/weather will most likely continue without our interference.

I guess all we can do is be aware and keep open minds as to what may be possible. I just hope we don't wait too long for the "PROOF"...what
ever the proof may be!
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 7:25 pm:

I am a weather watching girl and can get a little sensitive about the effects of heat, excessive cold, moisture etc.etc.etc.

Just for something to talk or complain about, I do wonder about how this "Heat Wave" has an effect on our horses and what precipitates these unusual patterns.

After having gone through a few years of DrOught, we are now seeing outbreaks of ANTHRAX due to areas of land filling up with water. What is going on???

I could go on and on.....
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 7:15 am:

Some parts of Texas are having a bit of anthrax raise its ugly head too Susan. This happens every so often anywhere livestock has been raised for a long period and the environment is conducive for spore formation and distribution.

I don't know if this will help you feel better or not about this but I think the important point is that these weather patterns are probably not unusual at all, but well within the range of normal. We tend to view weather from our own recent experiences, or at the very most from the experiences of the last few generations. This is a limited viewpoint when compared with the whole history of climate. Looking back over the history of climate much larger variations are the norm and it is our limited experience that makes fluctuations appear unusual. Imagine instead of 100 years of record keeping we had a 1000 years of record keeping or 10,000 years? I strongly suspect we will find the past few years, few decades, or even 100 years to be nothing unusual. Now doesn't that feel better?
DrO
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 11:36 am:

The Amazon rain forest is in the worst DrOught in memory and poplar bears are beginning to eat each other because they can't reach their normal prey the ice is melting from under them!! It is the speed of what is occuring that is terrifing!! These are but 2 examples of the earth's struggle there are so many more..... I hope you are all correct and it is just a "normal" blip . Cindy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 2:38 pm:

Where did you read/hear about the Polar bears eating each other? Haven't heard that before.

Re: the Amazon rain forest, imo "in memory" is the key phrase regarding the draught. I think the slashing and burning and turning the land into farm land is a far worse problem, and a preventable one.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 3:37 pm:

Cindy-

I, too, would be interested in knowing where you found that information. Not doubting that you heard this...would like to know the source though.

My EX-husband was issued a license to hunt polar bears in Alaska within the last year (don't remember what month). He got what he (dearly)paid for, and it is now fully mounted in his trophy room (along with many other innocent animals). I deplore this sport (if you can call it sport).

My point is this. If polar bears are consuming one another, I don't believe the state would issue hunting licenses (no matter how much they get paid for them). Not only would it further upset the population of the bears, it would be very risky for the hunters (hmmm, might not be a bad idea-tit for tat). Well sustained polar bears are dangerous enough. Hungry polar bears? Well, I don't believe the guide businesses would even risk the repercussions of that scenario.

I don't approve of this type of hunting. I do understand the "thinning" of deer populations, etc. As long as the deer are used for meat, etc., and not wasted, or killed for their racks. I couldn't shoot "Bambi", but I try to understand the balance of necessity.

I tend to agree with Dr. O, Sara, and Christos!

Everything happens for a reason. I believe someone more judicious (than any of us), knows what's happening, and why.

God moves in mysterious ways. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...

Don't fool with Mother Nature!

Uh, oh...here comes that fence post!

DJ

Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 4:42 pm:

The recent incidents of Polar bears resorting to Cannabalism was in the national newspapers and also on the AOL news. Cindy's accounting is correct. Prior to this, the Polar bear species had been struggling to raise the numbers of cubs they had in the past. Also troubling is that as far away as the arctic, Polar bears have PCB's in their bodies. Mankind now realizes what a huge mistake we made with PCB's, but a lot of it got spread around before we figured it out. What man has done, and continues to do to the planet is very unfortunate. Only today I read about dead areas of the ocean off the state of California. Sea mammals that are dead or sick and paralyzed float in frequently. There are huge dead areas in the Gulf of Mexico where nothing can live. The coral reefs are dying. The chain of lakes I live near sometimes has 400 or more times the amount of toxic algae in it than is considered a safe level by the World Health Organization. Such a situation would close a lake to ANY activity (even boating) in Australia. The neurotoxins and other pollutants have killed massive numbers of water birds and many of the largest alligators, whose hatch-rate has declined severely -- a tough ancient species. Many will say -- who cares about the alligators? But if we value nothing more than our own species, we should take note! Even this President's hand-picked scientists have turned on this administration because their policy planners have blacked out vast portions of the studies he asked them for on global warming. This was on 60 minutes with the scientist holding the reports up with big black areas covering what they did not want included. There is the odd scientist here and there -- some of whom are KNOWN to accept money from businesses that don't want to acknowledge the science -- who dismiss the amount of influence man has on global warming and what global warming will cause and is now causing. Top scientists now say that so much has already been set into motion that if mankind began doing everything possible tomorrow to slow the process, the seas are still going to rise greatly -- probably within 50 - 75 years, to a point where Florida will be under water again, and many other areas as well. That is not thousands of years from now -- the prediction is for this century. Eventually the earth will recover and evolve from man's folly, but perhaps first the human species will be flicked off of her like fleas as a species. How do we think we can survive and thrive here when massive die offs and extinctions are happening at this rapid rate? Sadly, many policies that had been put into place to help insure our health and welfare have been undone by this administration. If you want to get "God" involved in this I would remind you that when we were given dominion over the other species, we were also charged with caring for the other species and all that he created. I am not opposed to deer hunting, etc., but I do believe we should be good stewards of the earth, and by doing so, we help to protect our own health and the future generations.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 5:06 pm:

Man made warming or natural climate cycle - what is clear to me after Katrina is that the government does not have the resources to adequately help citizens after a weather catastrophe. And given the current information we are going to be dealing with more disastrous weather than ever in the next 10 years.

We need to re-think our priorities and global commitments. All civilizations rise and fall. Could weather cause the downfall of this super power?
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 6:15 pm:

Vicki, you are right and much more if we open our eyes to what is around us things they are a-changing with great speed!From big corporations that are already locked into battle for who owns what part of an ice free artic to the farmers burning the forests it will all add up.And yes the DrOught in the Amazon is very real and very bad for ALL of us, if they do not get rain we will all know not even the political types will be able to ignore the wows this will cause!! Think people how do you feed and water the horses we love if the hay can't be grown ? National Geographic Smithsonion and Discovery web sites also News in Nature the info is out there; search and learn. Cindy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 6:20 pm:

Anthrax is not an unusual occurrence. There are a number of cases every year. In our area, we're seeing a bit of an outbreak this year in areas where there was excessive run off from heavy spring rains.

Changing weather patterns is not an unusual occurrence.

What is unusual is what's happening in the Arctic and the cannibalistic behavior reported by numerous reliable news sources and though not proven, yet, it is suspected that this behavior is directly related to the melt of the polar ice cap.

We are sticking our heads in the sand if we ignore the impact of global warming.

Excerpt from the Globe and Mail:}

Two polar bears have starved to death and two others were found dead this year in the region where scientists previously discovered unprecedented cannibalism within the population.

Scientists were stunned to discover that two mother polar bears had been stalked, killed and eaten near their Beaufort Sea dens, and that much larger male bears cannibalized a young male during the spring of 2004.

Now, four more dead polar bears have been found in the Alaskan and Canadian regions of the Beaufort Sea, and researchers are getting worried.

What was initially thought to be a curious event could indicate a radical shift in the behaviour of polar bears as they battle dangerous DrOps in nutrition levels, said the lead author of a report into the 2004 deaths.


Dr. Steven Amstrup, polar bear project leader for the U.S. Geological Survey, Alaska Science Centre, said cannibalism is not unheard of in bear populations, but it usually happens after an has animal died for other reasons, such as during a fight over territory.

What sets the 2004 deaths apart is the calculated manner in which the bears appear to have been sniffed out, stalked and killed by large males bears hunting for food.

"These are very rare events. The fact that we observed three in a row is very profound," Dr. Amstrup said.

This year, researchers in Alaska found two females with radio tags dead from starvation, and the remains of a third.

Canadian researchers found one dead polar bear in their study region.

The causes of death are being investigated, but Dr. Amstrup said the incidents were unprecedented.

"We've never seen anything like that before. Two of the dead bears were extremely emaciated and appeared to have starved."

Excerpt from the Sydney Herald (Ontario, Canada)

POLAR bears in the southern Beaufort Sea - part of the Arctic Ocean - may be turning to cannibalism because longer seasons without ice keep them from getting to their natural food, a study by American and Canadian scientists has found.

The study reviewed three examples of polar bears preying on each other from January to April 2004 north of Alaska and western Canada, including the first-ever reported killing of a female in a den shortly after it gave birth.

Polar bears feed primarily on ringed seals and use sea ice for feeding, mating and giving birth.

Polar bears kill each other for population regulation, dominance and reproductive advantage, the study said.

Killing for food seems to be less common, said the study's principal author, Steven Amstrup of the US Geological Survey's Alaska Science Centre.

"During 24 years of research on polar bears in the southern Beaufort Sea region of northern Alaska and 34 years in north-western Canada, we have not seen other incidents of polar bears stalking, killing and eating other polar bears," the scientists said.

Environmentalists contend shrinking polar ice due to global warming may lead to the disappearance of polar bears before the end of the century.

The Centre for Biological Diversity of Joshua Tree, California, in February 2005 petitioned the US Government to list polar bears as threatened under the federal Endangered Species Act.

Cannibalism demonstrates the effect on bears, said the lead author of the petition, Kassie Siegel.

Deborah Williams of Alaska Conservation Solutions, a group that pursues solutions for climate change, said the study represented the "bloody fingerprints" of global warming.

At the other end of the earth, a tourism boom is putting pressure on the Antarctic, polar scientists said on Monday
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 6:50 pm:

More excellant points. And if you ever see anything any more on the news about Katrina, it sure seems that things are still pretty bad in that area. Has the government got a plan for next time? And there will be a next time, some place.

Living as I do with Lake Michigan and Lake Superior around me, I hate to think what would happen if some disaster hit the East Coast. We could easily feel the after shocks here, if it affected the levels of the 2 great lakes. As it is, most of the UP of MI is low land.

And being I am not a water person, I really do pay attention to these observations!!!

We don't usually have heat and humidity too bad here, but today the heat index was 110 degrees. I have never in my life seen horses sweating so bad, standing in their airy stalls, that the sweat was running down their legs and dripping off of their bellies.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 11:35 pm:

I appreciate the informative commentary, and sources. Most enlightening. Thank you.

IF I want to get "God" involved...? I believe He was involved long before we were.

These are strictly my beliefs, and my beliefs alone. I am not trying to press these beliefs upon anyone, that is why I should have abstained from this specific subject. However, I choose to believe that God plays a role in the better good of decisions that we make, or actions we take. I understand that God tasked us with caring for the humanity of all beings (creations). That is why I TRY to do what I can, as an individual, to help any just cause. Global warming and the protection of animals, etc., is an issue that no ONE individual can solve alone, but if we come together as a society with the best interests of mankind, and our planet, together we can make a difference.

My mother always told me not to enter conversations of politics, religion, or sex.

I wish I'd stayed on the darn fence!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 7:11 am:

DJ, I too was going to stay out of this debate, but it is good for each of us to have all of the information available, and there has been much said of interest. Your post was one of those that finally got me to jump in. Though all may not agree on everything, we can consider, ponder and respect each other's point of view. Recent medical research is showing that the human brain is very effective at closing down and not allowing even what is FACTUAL information in that disagrees with his or her preconceived notions, which may be one of the reasons we keep messing things up. It takes a lot of work to keep an open mind and keep learning, and I think there are a lot of us who subscribe to HA that do try to do this, and perhaps that is a reason we are subscribers -- we do want to keep learning. Many Evangelical Christian organizations are now beginning to become involved in the global warming issue and other environmental concerns.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 8:03 am:

Hello Everyone,
Wow where to start with this. Concerning the behavior of polar bears, I can find references to cannibalism just about as far back as you can find organized study of the specie. The earliest documented reference I can find is Taylor, M., T. Larsen, and R.E. Schweinsburg 1985 Observations of intraspecific aggression and cannibalism in polar bears (Ursus maritimus). Arctic, Vol. 38, No. 4, pp. 303-309. However I have found several references to polar bear cannibalism dating back to the 70's, I just cannot find the original references. Cannibalism has even been observed in other bear species, humans, horses, and chimpanzees, do you really think it would be that unique an event among animals with the habits of a polar bear in a environment where resources are always so scarce?

But even if this were true and a unique event, which it is not, to link such a complex behavior as cannibalism to such a complex event as global warming (a 1/2 degree rise over the past 100 years, based on simple observation of the event is...is...not science but...but...pure conjecture. I would like to use stronger language but this is a family site.

Using this sort of science I am sure we can link just about anything that happens to global warming. Wait...that is exactly what the most vocal group of the environmental crowd has done, or at least linked it to everything bad. This is despite the fact that bad things have happened every second of every day since the beginning of man, even during the ice age.

Linda you are right the government cannot protect us from natural disasters. If you choose to stand in front of the tidal wave you will get swept away. What I don't understand is all the finger pointing at the government after many made this choice.

My post is a call for a cleaner environment but I am afraid if we address this issue from a point of alarmism and emotion, as the above reports are meant to do, bad decisions will be made. Even decisions that will ultimately hurt the environment and us. I can't remember if it is the Bible or Shakespeare or Sheriff Taylor but some of the best advice I have ever come across was to be suspicious of anything that peddles to your fears and above all, do not counsel your fears.
DrO
Member:
Caroltd

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 9:33 am:

I second that, Dr. O.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:00 am:

Dr. O,
I in no way meant to say that I expect my government to protect me from a natural disaster. I am against building in areas where it is sure to flood and similar scenarios. But how far do we take that? Should I not live in Florida because of the hurricanes? Should California not be populated because of the earthquakes?

The insurance companies are not renewing policies in DrOves here in Florida. Many of my neighbors do not have insurance on their houses. How are they going to re-build if they have to? You can still see houses and property with damage from the hurricanes that came through here in 2004.

I do expect my government to offer relief in a variety of ways after a natural disaster. My concern is if there are many more incidences of weather related damage in the next 50 years, be it by natural weather cycles or man made pollution, is the government going to have the funds to offer the relief needed?

Can we afford war and weather?
Member:
Tpmiller

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:05 am:

We had a mare complete back to back 50 mile endurance rides this past weekend with heat index in excess of 120, temps low 90's, humidity at least 30 or better.

There were three vet holds during each 50, two of 45 minutes duration and one 30 min. Horse must present with a HR of 64 or below as the initial criteria. 12 hour deadline (including hold times for completion).

Plentiful ice was used by all at holds, and horses were watered along the trails.

It is the core temp that cannot get out of control. Water is dumped on all but large muscle mass, veins and arteries, water removed continuously by hand or scraper so that it does not hold heat in, while HR is checked by steth, monitor or hand (you can feel the beat in some instances) and watch with second hand.

2 observations: this mare has a terrible gnat problem for which we use a mixtures of natural oils, unanticipated advantage as the water simply rolled off her while still providing cooling effects.

We apparently overused ice water at the completion of the first day, it took us a while after the completion, 45 minutes or so, to figure out the mare was actually cold, we blanketed her for 15 minutes and she was fine. The next day we used a lot less ice.

This mare hung at 70-80 HR at the completion of the second day 50 for 15 minutes before she came down to parameters, not unusual for a very well conditioned horse in these circumstances, in cooler less humid weather she is down immediately.

You don't attempt something like this cavalierly, it takes adjustment conditioning miles in similar weather, a rider completely familiar with the horse who can rate speed accordingly, an HR monitor on them at all times, and a breed of horse capable of losing heat.
Member:
Sonoita

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:07 am:

I will pass for now on this subject. Maybe later. It is very interesting to read though.
Happy Trails,
Wanda, waiting on the fence and not ready to jump.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:51 am:

DrO
Thanks for trying to quell the alarmist trend this was taking.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 11:09 am:

From the newspaper today, our friend and ally British Prime Minister Tony Blair called global warming "long-term, the single biggest issue we face." He and Arnold Schwarzenegger are bypassing the Bush administration to work on this problem, because "We see that there is not great leadership from the federal government when it comes to protecting the environment," Schwarzenegger said. "We know there is global warming, so we should stop it." Do you believe they are alarmists?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 11:17 am:

Timothy, thank you very much for the information. This is very timely as the heat wave appears to moving across the US.

I hope your mare is doing ok..
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 11:27 am:

Been called alot of things never an alarmist that's new!! But what I said is fact the Polar bears are in trouble just go to National Geographics web site and read! the whole artic habitat is in trouble because of melting ice and yes there has always been cannibalism among animals that goes without saying, the point being we all need to be aware of the changes no matter what/who is the cause! To not acknowledge the changes is foolish! Think back to your own childhoods and be aware of how much has altered. So I wasn't trying to scare everyone just suggesting we keep informed beyond what the powers that be spoon feed us! Cindy
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 12:00 pm:

I don't know how much pollution is contributing to global warming. I do know that in Australia you are too scared to litter the fines are extremely high and on the spot. Almost everyone is concerned about the environment and always talk about it and ways to make the country a cleaner place. The government does a lot to help with strict laws and making public transportation available to everyone. and its constantly on the news and everyone is always aware of it.
My sister when she came to visit was shocked when she saw the amount of products that are available that are hard to dispose of. The giant gas guzzling cars. our rivers where you would be too scared to fish from. I could go on and on. Generally most ,not all people do not care in this country. If they did more people would talk about it and find ways to keep the air cleaner. If the government would make a show saying how important its is and act on it. Maybe people would realize it is a problem and start to help the environment one by one. I never hear any one talk about the environment. No wonder there are extremist groups (who go overboard) but I understand the frustration with the don't care attitude. I have to admit I have become to americanized in this regard and I am ashamed of myself for not thinking about the environment.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 1:47 pm:

Nor I Cindy. An alarmist trend can only happen if you believe everything you read and fail to follow it up with your own research. We must always question. This is how we learn.

Everyone does eventually form their own judgements and opinions however, and some will completely discount global warming as a reason for events like the accelerated cannibalism in polar bears, while others will think maybe there is some merit to it, and investigate the findings further. I choose to think of global warming as a serious concern. As for the cannibalism in polar bears, maybe there are documented cases of it in the past, but they are on a startling increase, at least, that is what I think. I will continue to research that thought.

The Arctic habitat is in trouble, maybe living in Canada we see and hear more reports on this, I don't know, but, heck, the whole world is in trouble. The Columbia Ice Fields are receding at an alarming rate. The rain forest is in trouble. There are indicators everywhere that we are messing up the earth. Now, when I say destroy, please don't accuse me of being an 'alarmist'...I am not carrying a placard stating that the world is about to end...I merely think we all need to have a look at how we can start to clean up at least some of the mess that we as humans have started to create on this beautiful earth that God has created. There. I've said it. I am a Christian, I am a creationist, I am allowed to say that on this message board, aren't I? I sincerely hope so, or the world is in bigger trouble than I thought.}
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 4:18 pm:

Sherri and KT, It is good to hear from someone beyond our news media!! Ran a bookstore for decades so understand how both the printed word and numbers can be arranged to suit a point of view.My father in law has worked around the globe and my husband is a frequent flyer to Europe and the views from there are as Sherris and KT! Dr.O go to National Geo. pull up "global warming fast facts" and you will lots of ###s My great concern is that I do not wish to be blindsided with a crisis where my horses/animals are in trouble and I can't save them.The heat this summer has given a short glimpse into what might be in the future?? Perhaps if we are no longer the silent majority it would help sway some of the people who make the choices we have to live with ??? Cindy
Member:
Dawson

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 5:58 pm:

okay you California types who sent the hot weather this way? Today is a mere 99 degrees tomorrow is slated to hit 100-106 degrees'

I went in to work late today after I added fresh water to the tubs-sprinkler the kids, and make sure the pups pool is filled, needless to say I was a little.... glistening by the time I DrOve off for work. I didn't find the mud smear by my elbow until after I reached the office, Oh well...
I tell co-workers it's the nature look, (be grateful it could be something else :-)

Our area is notorious for power outages. Hubby is already home and called to say it's 102 at home outside at 5:30PM, but inside our cinder block barn it's 85 degrees. He's going to put the horses away and turn on the barn fans when the temp goes up from warm bodies.

Tomorrow who wants to clean the barn? I don't hear anyone? I'm taking the day off from work, to clean the barn hose the horses and goats, keep the puppy pool clean and filled, move my bunnies back into the barn, put their fan on, exchange frozen soda bottles to keep them cool, who am I missing.... Please don't let the power go out. Oh, move the tortoises into the pen behind the house for more shade, fill their pool, and shower our three Himalayan cats(thanks goodness they like to be showered!)

AND THE GOOD NEWS...
It's not the 120's degrees you people out west had to deal with!! }

A none horsey question do any of you have bunnies and do you keep them in outside hutches? What did you do for them during the heat wave?
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 6:13 pm:

Can't help ya with the bunnies... during our heat wave stay, my barn got up to 125 degrees...direct sun 130+ degrees ( gage readings ) we are on a low producing well so I can't even use misters.. what I did do was hose the hot zones on the horses and put their snack in front of a fan... they survived... ME, well in just 20 mins of hosing and snacking I would be a dripping mess !!
Good luck, this soon shall pass...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 6:31 pm:

Large soft drink bottles filled and frozen with water then thin towels wrapped around them, but bunnies may not need towels but it does help them alot needs to be checked and replaced as needed. Are you sure we don't share a barn ?? Mine hit those numbers for 2 weeks only my hot flashes made that seem cool! Good bunnie luck Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 7:25 pm:

Well, I didn't expect much sympathy but first let me say I was not calling anyone here alarmist but was talking about the reports on polar bears that link global warming to the cannibalism. Trying to take the above in order:

Linda, I was agreeing with you.

Timothy, super job!

Vicki, Arnold and Tony did make a beautiful pair in the photo-ops. But I think they make little common sense on this issue. Tony says it is the most important long term issue, I think the ongoing abuse of human rights (uhh that would be killing), famine, and disease in underdeveloped countries are more pressing long term problems. Arnold wants to "stop it" when the cause remains uncertain. I don't know, maybe the big guy has a thermostat on the sun.

Cindy, I am uncertain about what particular changes you are talking about but honestly I don't see any major climatic difference from the time I was a child and now. It is not the facts as presented that dismay me but the conclusions about causal relationships when there is little support for those conclusions. I know of no evidence that cannibalism in pb's is on the rise. We just don't have that sort of data. What I have seen is the dire predictions from the late 50's, 60's and 70's have not materialized.

Sherri addressing your specific concerns about the Columbia Ice Field, I found this interesting reference published in a referred climatic scientific journal:
A Thousand-Year Temperature History from the Canadian Rockies

Luckman, B.H. and Wilson, R.J.S. 2005.
Summer temperatures in the Canadian Rockies during the last millennium: a revised record. Climate Dynamics 24: 131-144.
The revised Columbia Icefield temperature reconstruction provides further evidence for natural climate fluctuations on centennial-to-millennial time scales and demonstrates, once again, that temperatures during the Modern Warm Period are no different from those observed during the Medieval Warm Period (11-12th centuries) or the Little Medieval Warm Period (1350-1450). And since we know that atmospheric CO2 concentrations had nothing to do with the warm temperatures of those earlier periods, we cannot rule out the possibility that they also have nothing to do with the warm temperatures of the modern era.

The Columbia Icefield reconstruction appears to indicate a reasonable response of local trees to large-scale forcing of climates, with reconstructed cool conditions comparing well with periods of known low solar activity.
Concerning rainforests there seems to be about the same amount of misinformation as with global warming but time constraints limit me from spreading this out too widely. However that seems to be more of a "destruction by chainsaw" than a global warming issue so we will leave it for another day. But I must dilvulge that I own a STIHL and think it is the best chainsaw made.

Cindy, being a long time NG subscriber I got to read the polar bear story first hand and am well aware of their stance on this. I am not sure what numbers you are talking about but I do know that 1/2 a degree increase is what many scientist agree on.

Dawson, like Timothy, super job! Our local alpaca owners are spraying them with hoses. Our bunnies seem Ok in the shade but it is only 95 here.

To reiterate, climatic fluctuation on 1, 10, 100, 1000, and even 1,000,000 year cycles is absolutely normal. A 1/2 degree rise in 100 years does not fall out of the background of pre CO2 rise fluctuation. It is important that we try to make our footprint on the earth as small as possible but this will be done through, and I know this is sounding familiar, science, technology, and industry. It will not come from a bunch of politicians whining about how they are not getting enough money from the private sector (the CO2 credits) while pandering to the fears of their constituencies (I think Arnold said the sky is falling).
DrO
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 8:38 pm:

Dawson,
What we do for all our pets is make popsicles.
We mix their favorite food or grain with water and freeze it in either a tupperware or dixi cup(depending on the size of the animal)
Then we pop them out, and put them in a clean area for the animals to lick. For the horses we use just a little grain and a lot of water. Just make sure you dont put it on the ground, the dirt sticks to it and they end up eating a lot of dirt.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:08 pm:

The organizations mentioned (W.H.O., National Geographic, etc.) are not, in my opinion, organizations that present a balanced viewpoint.

After reading that the cannibalization and emaciation of the polar bear study was from 2004, my thought is: "So what are the 2006 statistics?" If there has been deep concern and observaion of the polar bears since 2004, then there should be even more alarming statistics for 2006.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:56 pm:

Holly,

What is a balanced viewpoint? Who can have a balanced viewpoint on this subject? Every one has their own best interests at heart. Seems everyone is suspicious of everyone elses view.

A Scientist gives his viewpoint, and facts, and is criticized for not having enough information over a long enough period of time.

A environmental group gives their viewpoint, and they are attacked for "trying to save one little frog or whatever, and trying to stop progress."

The politicians give their viewpoint, and everyone figures they are either just talking, or protecting big business, it's all about the money, etc.

But I do agree with your last paragraph....if people want to be taken seriously, they need to follow through and keep obtaining facts.

BTW, I wasn't disagreeing with you on the first part either, just throwing some more fuel on the fire so to speak.

We did move this to a discussion on Global Warming.

DrO.

You sure the sky isn't falling?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 11:24 pm:

I checked it tonight: stars all in place but I will be sure to check again before the morn.
DrO
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:27 am:

Holy Cow! After posting Fri. there was an enormous thunderstorm and my motherboard fried! Got back online just now!

When I remarked on global warming and how tired I was of it, I want to admit to being a child of the sixties, sucked in by all those silly predictions. However, out in the working world by 1968, and plunged into difficult times by 1969, the child-like, gullible world of the "flower-children", was pathetically irrelevant. This article highlights the stupidity I lived through - Paul Erlich was a "god" to college students everywhere, and we could all quote Malthus: https://www.reason.com/0005/fe.rb.earth.shtml

Should you be one who is troubled by global warming, please give this article some consideration: https://www.junkscience.com/july02/Kenny_Ice_Age.htm
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 7:26 am:

Angie I think my viewpoint is balanced because of one simple, unarguable fact: a 1/2 degree rise in the climate over a 100 year period is well within the normal range of climatic variation. This is not opinion but an observed phenomena well studied and reported by climatologist. How can anyone get excited over what is a normal variation?

Your use of the word facts reminds me of something Mark Twain said in a essay on the Frenchman Paul Bourget's writings about America. It goes: 'He has a trustfulness as regards men and facts which is fine and unusual; he is not particular about the source of a fact, he is not particular about the character and standing of the fact itself; but when it comes to pounding out the reason for the existence of the fact, he will trust no one but himself."

"The reason for the existence of the fact" is an incredibly enlightening concept. It has always fascinated me that in the ongoing rumble over global warming that it is the environmentalist that are most upset, yet you find many climatologist nonplussed by the global warming scenario. Concerning many environmentalist it strikes me "the reasons for the existence of the fact" that they pound out and the media perpetuates is more important than what the actual facts are. Concerning the media and politicians what are "the reasons for the existence of the fact".

Lee, so you started this rhubarb! I must say I enjoy the discussion. I had forgotten about what at one time was a site that would come up regularly on searches on some matters. Thanks for reminding me and for those unfamiliar and really are afraid the sky is falling I recommend a hefty dose of junkscience.com. The above link is particularly good. If you feel the sky is falling and want a cure for the feeling, study the articles statements, try to debunk them with careful study. If you make an effort you too will find the global warming hysteria, is just that. Yes we may be 1/2 degree warmer, but this is normal. Oh by the way one day the sky will fall and that is what we need to be prepared for but see the article for more on that. Stay Cool.
DrO
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 7:48 am:

I am not as worried about global warming as I am the pollution and smog and filth in the air water and land.
Member:
Christel

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 8:56 am:

Actually I think I started this 'global warming' conversation, but it doesn't matter.
I am sure enjoying the debate and everyones opinions.
Now if I could get my hubby to read all this,- he is adamant about global warming and will not come down off his high horse- and I have to live w/ him- gets pretty interesting at times.
Dr O, thanks once again for your common sensicle (sp) way of putting things, you are the best.
Chris
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 10:45 am:

Doc,

I am laughing here and thinking about how my reaction would of been to this maybe 10 years ago. First of all, I would have been very angry and felt that you were making fun of me for the "sky is falling" idea. (it is here, in the form of much needed rain!)

I also have a concept of "up rain" I might add! Have fun with that one if you wish.

So the guys with the REAL Facts are the climatologists.

It's fun picking your brain, and getting ours to grow here with new ideas be they opinions or facts. Geez, now everytime I hear the word fact I am going start having a debate in my own mind...ouch!

One thing I have learned from all kinds of articles and discussions on these types of subjects is this: we are only here for a certain amount of time and we need to make the most of each day. I won't be spending sleepless nights worrying about any of it. What will be, will be.

BUT: If we (the human race) don't try to keep our world clean, to put it simply, SHAME ON US.

We will get back what we put forth.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 11:06 am:

Dr.O Dr.O think I saw the southern cross on the horizon last nite! RUN Run.... best regards Henny Penny !!! ps my horse is very short! and the warm up is much more pronounced in the arctic more like 4 degrees!The polar bear report is from Feb of 06 and try looking at some of the pictures of vanished glaciers around the world.Glacier National park once had 150 glaciers now has 30.My whole point in this is NOT that the sky is falling but that there are changes afoot and since we are all responsible for other creatures any information should be studied so we are able to make the best choices possible. As I said having been a book seller for years junk science mis information redirected thoughts you name it I've seen it but what I value most Dr.O is an open mind!! Under no circumstance do I think the sky is falling but I do like a good arguement! Cindy/henny penny
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 11:23 am:

good article. I don't think i'm an alarmist. Actually, i would consider myself in the lazy american category on GREEN thinking...

But what i couldn't get away from (the article one lee gave us) was that "NOT YET" was popping into my head as i read. The numbers and doomsayers might have the time frame wrong. Which is ultimately the whole premise to the article. Saying that these guys said one thing but it never happened....But if we stave it off to a "not yet" scenario, because of technology and pop. decrease, and all the things bailey mention in the article, its not to say it still won't happen, just happening at a slower rate.

What i didn't like about the article is the nonchalance and his so what attitude. Example, the cancers people are getting numbers are increasing, but hey its going down in death because of medical advancement.... In fact the sentence that no one can prove the environment is increasing cancer in people, but he goes on to say that maybe all this crap in our bodies are helping us live longer... great...I'm a human formadyhyde experiment...

And its true, science and technology are growing faster than the ecology is diminishing.. So we are rushing to save the world BETTER,and FASTER, than we are DESTROYING it.... sooner or later that math equation WILL change.... he said the earth will not be destroyed based on ingenuity? i'm not sure i like that thought. Can't the earth just be better taken care of on a simple basis? Now when Erlich wrote his hypothesis i don't even think computers and technology were what they are today...

And of course, things like DDT, and AIDS, and malaria did plenty to keep the population explosion prediction down. Which also, can attribute to many of the predictions being off in trickle down theory..

Also, we all know that statistics can be utilized for anyone's benefit just by keeping out certain time frames. Even you DR. O hava pointed this out on an occasion or two on HA for arguements i can't remember. So i pose that here too.

And one last thing... if not for the doomsday sayers in the early 60's and 70's i don't think the changes would have been made like they did to help in making the world more "green". So, they are there for a reason, and be thankful for it to an extant.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:33 pm:

That suggested opinion piece is over four years old and therefore relatively obsolete on this subject as far as I am concerned. When it says "no respected scientist" that is just plain dead wrong, since the overwhelming number of all scientists, and most especially those who are most highly regarded, now say the evidence is irrefutable. If you want to dig around you can always find a few spouting far out ideas (and some of them may be right) and I have to wonder how many really got on the "ice age" bandwagon. And the attitude that "they" don't want electricity to be available worldwide or that "they" want to keep the poor folks poor is absurd rubbish. I don't know if the warming is half a degree and may soon be one degree, but increasingly, there is agreement that amount is actually rather significant for the effect it can have on the velocity of storms coming out of the warmer waters of the Carribean and Atlantic. Also, places the writer mentions as frozen wastelands are melting now . . . There is a "far right" and a "far left." I agree that there may be some exaggerations being made because of needed funding, but we get that thrown at us from every sector that wants funding, don't we? The truth probably lies somewhere between the extremes.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 2:35 am:

After living through the Cold War, bomb shelters, air raid drills instead of fire drills in school, and the Cuban Missile Crisis, the environmental theories are just not that frightening. Especially not compared to a nuclear sub showdown off the Florida coast. Mother Nature herself, produces some pretty amazing pollution - remember the statistics on Mt. St. Helene's?

Living just outside NYC my entire life ( 'til '04), I was able to watch the whole plot unfold. I learned to swim in the Hudson River in the early '50's, and was there to watch it die during the sixties. No more fishing or crabbing....there was no life in the river at all. It stunk. It was toxic. New York, like Los Angeles, was buried in a yellow haze most days. You could hardly see the George Washington Bridge until you were almost on top of it. "They" developed SMOG ALERTS to let people know how dangerous the air quality was from day to day. We had.....inversions...( I think that was the word ), and on those days, you would be told to stay inside unless you absolutely HAD to go out. Every bus and heavy truck in creation belched thick black smoke ( including the school busses I rode ), and car exhaust was grey. You couldn't imagine the mess that poured from factory smokestacks. After snow, in the winter, it only took one day to turn black. If you spent a day in the city, when you looked in the mirror, you would be black around your nose. There were beautiful buildings you didn't know about because they were black with soot. I could go on and on. This is truth. I lived it.

You know what changed things? Not the vacuous, self absorbed "hippies"....it was land values. In the late sixties, the waterfront, along the Hudson, began to gentrify, because not everyone could afford the proper NYC address. The first condos emerged from putrefied remains of transport bases, factories and shipping yards. These "first nouveau settlers" had a view of NYC, that was shrouded in smog, and a beautiful river to build a private marina on....and right by the Palisades! But the river was loaded with toxins and garbage...literally. Well, this is, today, some of the most valuable real estate in the world. And due to it's value, the river was cared for ( due to the agitation of the developers ). Today, the Hudson River is teeming with fish and wildlife. From the prime real estate along the NJ side, New York City presents a stunningly beautiful cityscape that is clearly visible in a way it never was in my childhood. The huge utilities and factories along the NJ turnpike have exhaust scrubbers that remove polluting particulates from the emissions and white steam (not smoke ) is what is now emitted.

Of course, add to that improvement, catalytic converters, and unleaded gas. Emissions testing on yearly car inspection. Anti-pollution devices on car engines. And, I distinctly remember rushing out to buy a 1985 Buick Park Avenue because after 1985 "no more large luxury cars would ever be manufactured". Now that I think of it, it's funny....under Reagen, we lost the huge cars forever. Under Clinton - Gore, we got them all back again ( Hummer )with size to spare.

I know there is always room for improvement, but I'm astounded at the huge strides I've seen in my lifetime. Seen, smelled, touched and tasted.....first-hand. The snow here in NJ stays white and has since sometime in the 1980's. NYC is visible, except in the worst weather, even from Skyline Drive, nearly 40 miles away. The Bureau of Reforrestation reports more forrested acres in the U.S. today, than at the turn of the century. The Jersey Shore, famous for the closing of it's beaches in the 1970's due to medical waste and pollution, is cleaner than I can ever remember it.
I've flown into LA a few times in the last few years and am astounded at how the yellow-grey haze has dissipated.

Change takes place not due to whining and protesting. It takes place when an innovative thinker notices that a better mousetrap is needed.
He builds it and people flock to buy it. The next thing you know, another thinker improves on the first idea and grabs a slice of the pie.

I'm confident that in my lifetime, I'll see a viable alternative to oil that will sweep our markets - unfortunately, I'm also confident that it will serve to further destabilize the Middle East.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 3:38 am:

I'm sorry to tell you that the point of no return on global warming has already been passed and it is likely nothing can now be done.

I find it terribly depressing that many north Americans choose to ignore this issue in favour of the joys of air conditioning and hummers.

I have great faith in Dr O's views on horses but I think I'll stick with the United Nations Environment Project and other climatic experts on global warming...

I am delighted to hear that there have been environmental improvements in the US but the US was the power of the 20th century as Europe was the power of the 19th century. China and India will control what happens in the 21st century. I hope that they are able to provide the relevant innovation but I think it more likely that population pressures will cause huge destabilisation in Asia. Bill Gates isn't stupid when he puts his money into population issues...

Right, I'm off to hide.

Best wishes to all

Imogen
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 8:05 am:

Lee, I loved "reminiscing" about the bad old days with you. I agree, the US has made remarkable gains in cleaning up the environment.

Unfortunately, as Imogen says, we are still only a small part of the globe. Most third world countries look and smell exactly like NYC did thirty years ago--only worse because their populations are much more huge.

I don't know about global warming, but we have made a big impact on the air, water, and land of this planet. Hope everyone soon learns to clean up their act.

And Three cheers for Lee's hope of eliminating dependence on oil!!!!!!
Respectfully,
Erika
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:49 am:

Unfortunately all that nasty stuff that used to wash up onto your beach, Lee has simply changed locations. It is in remote places like Midway and the Midway Atoll where albatross and other sea birds are feeding it to their chicks, thinking it food. From one dead chick: "a collection of bottle caps, red, blue and orange; a black spray nozzle, part of a green comb, a white golf tee; and a clump of tiny dark squid beaks ensnared in a tangle of fishing line." Other items frequently found: "cigarette lighters, bucket handles, toothbrushes, syringes, toy soldiers -- anything made out of plastic." And the Carbon dioxide is far more reaching than the global warming connection. It is turning the sea increasingly acidic: "The greenhouse gas, best known for accumulating in the atmosphere and heating the planet, is entering the ocean at a rate of nearly 1 million tons per hour -- 10 times the natural rate. Scientists report that the seas are more acidic today than they have been in at least 650,000 years. At the current rate of increase, ocean acidity is expected, by the end of this century, to be 2 1/2 times what it was before the Industrial Revolution began 200 years ago. Such a change would devastate many species of fish and other animals that have thrived in chemically stable seawater for millions of years. In a matter of decades, the world's remaining coral reefs could be too brittle to withstand pounding waves. Shells could become too fragile to protect their occupants. The oceans have been a been a natural sponge for carbon dioxide for eons. Especially after calamities such as asteroid strikes, they have acted as a global safety valve, soaking up excess CO2 and preventing catastrophic overheating of the planet. IF NOT FOR THE OCEANS, THE EARTH WOULD HAVE WARMED BY 2 DEGREES INSTEAD OF 1 DURING THE PAST CENTURY, SCIENTISTS SAY. Glaciers would be disappearing faster than they are, DrOughts would be more widespread and the rising sea levels would be more pronounced. When carbon dioxide is added to the ocean gradually, it does little harm. Today, however, the addition of carbon dioxide to the seas is anything but gradual. Geological records show that such a change has not occurred in 650,000 years. The last time ocean chemistry underwent such a radical change, said Ken Caldeira, an expert on ocean chemistry and carbon dioxide at the Carnegie Institution's department of global ecology, was when the dinosaurs went extinct." Another item in the paper today tells that Santiago, Chile has ordered 320,000 vehicles off the streets and told 542 industries to halt operations. Schools have suspended all sports activities due to choking smog. This is why the U.S. needs to be a LEADER and cooperate with other nations in controlling emissions. Daily these emissions are causing lots of sickness and eventual painful deaths due to respiratory illnesses and cancers.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:27 am:

Lovely post Angie, I will raise a toast to a cleaner world and less dependence on oil as a fuel.

Vicki, I don't see how the fact that the article is 4 years old makes it irrelevant. The points it makes are as relevant now as then. Taking the whole statement that you say is false in context it reads "The propagandists pretend there is scientific consensus that man's activities are definitely changing the climate in a dangerous way. This is an outright lie. You will find no reputable scientist who says so." This statement must be true, as science cannot prove any supposition is 100% true. Any those who say differently are by definition not scientist but have become advocates for a position.

Ok you might say maybe not a 100% definite but what about 99% sure. Advocacy for such a position is not bad. But Vicki, the unarguable facts are:
  • At most a 1/2 degree rise.
  • A minuscule rise in CO2 levels of 0.0087% as a percent of total atmospheric gases
  • Water vapor accounts for the great majority of green house gasses
From these facts I would conclude that any reputable scientist would question the statement "that man's activities are definitely changing the climate in a dangerous way." Vicki, other that the advocacy of others, what fact(s) do you have that says otherwise? You want to point to natural disasters that have been happening forever and then create a causal link? Do you know the Pilgrim's thought they were in the Biblical apocalypse during one of their hurricanes? As many scientific study shows many of the statements about our changing climate and environment have all been seen before, in this century and repeatedly over the last millennia. Those climatic studies that say otherwise that I have been able to look at have serious flaws. It is normal for records to be broken and while everyone points to this very hot summer they seem to have forgotten this very chilly spring, at least where I live in the SE USA.

Joj, I agree with Lee the earlier apocalyptic environmentalist did nothing to improve things and if you assume the real problem is global warming actually worsened the situation. Their point was how particulate pollution was shading the earth resulting in significantly cooler temperatures and throw us into the next ice age. But by the time their voice was picked up and made familiar, people had already become tired of pollution and begun to institute the political will to address air pollution. It was crummy smell and appearance rather than the threat of a new ice age that created change. But the radical environmental groups also fought (and still fight) nuclear power. Had it been allowed to develop many of the issues with CO2 levels, at least in this nation, would either have become moot or would be becoming moot.

Nuclear is CO2 free and a technology that already works. It will be nice if solar or wind can come along but until they do let's build those nuclear plants! It has an amazing safety record with good design and the waste storage problem is not as difficult as some make it out to be: solidification with deposition into solid rock depositories has gotten the nod from several research projects. Meeting current levels of high level waste production (nuclear does already produce 20% of our electrical power in the US) is manageable with this technique and if nuclear takes over all carbon based electrical production should still be manageable. There are even some permanent solutions to the nuclear waste problem but currently they are only on the drawing board.

I knew you would be unable to resist Imogen, no need to hide this as always is a friendly discussion. The UN position is about the same as many environmentalist: global warming is a byproduct of human activity and dangerous. This despite the facts, that no one has refuted here, are as I have state them. Kyoto is a prescription for ruining active economies as it is in the clear process of doing already in NZ. The two countries you pick as possible saviors are exempt from Kyoto and why? Kyoto would damage their economies, as Kyoto itself acknowledges. You are right that the future of a cleaner environment will largely rest on the poor but population rich countries advancing to the point they can afford cleaner technologies but free trade and improved human rights will be the solution and not enslaving them to the UN and it's Kyoto solution. Put in concrete terms, Kyoto would punish the US economy which India currently depends on for its rising middle class. And if you wonder where China gets most it's income and technology look at the trade imbalance between our two countries. Don't get me wrong, I think the trade imbalance and growth of these countries a very very good thing and look forward to a world where we don't necessarily lead. It gets tough in the front sometimes and the more contribution the rest of the world gives the better off the world will be.
DrO
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:29 am:

Wow Dr.O we agree on something my husband is a nuclear eng. and it is one of the big possibilites for energy if we just realized it! We will never agree on the warming issue, did you watch the news last nite?? Vicki is right on and braver than me didn.t think that much info would fly, and there is so much more ... have had very hot summer here and 3 days with no power which if your water comes from a well ................. horses standing around wanting to know what happened to cool fresh water and I can't fill tanks because the pump does not work. Do you know how much water has to be brought in by hand to keep 4 horses with fresh water to say nothing of the other animals! It does give one food for thought! Cindy
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:51 am:

Dr. O, I will have to get back to this later because I am speaking about "smart growth" at the town hall tonight with regard to various development proposals. I have seen the 1 degree rise VS a half degree in many places. As I've acknowledged before, nature creates many challenges. Man can only decide to control what he can control and make it easier for her to heal herself. I was in Spain last year and saw a great amount of power being made by wind. I also saw nuclear cones. The best innovation of all though, is a super highway toll road where everyone actually keeps right except to pass!
Member:
Sonoita

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 4:04 pm:

Good luck on your speech tonight. I do that here in Colorado.
We have water issues. So " smart growth" is a must. I feel that way anyway, not the developers and commissioners. We are also fighting to be able to ride in national parks. DOW is trying to stop us.I could go on and on but better stop.
Happy Trails,
Wanda
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

Just got around to reading this really interesting thread - yup, I'm slow but I do have an injured horse recovering from surgery so I figure I have a good excuse.

Cindy, the polar bear cannabalism issue is all over the news up here and has been for quite some time as Canada has such a large Arctic landmass. There is strong pressure underway in the scientific community to add them to the endangered species list.

Their numbers are in serious decline due to the rapid melting of the polar ice cap. The bears rely on the ice to hunt through spring to build up fat stores to last them over the summer months. Since the ice is now melting earlier and seals live on the ice flows, their spring hunting season is being cut short. In addition the ice build up in the fall is happening later than normal so the bears are having trouble surviving on what fat stores they have in reserve until the pack ice builds up again. Not only does this affect juvenile bears who naturally don't carry as much body fat as adults, but it also reduces the reproductive capabilities of female bears. Recent reports show evidence of polar bears and grizzly bears mating which up to now has been virtually unheard of.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:41 pm:

Thanks Wanda -- Things went about as I expected -- maybe a bit better. We constantly battle growth issues here in central Florida. Lots of stuff gets approved that doesn't nearly pay its way with regard to the cost of providing services, (urban sprawl and rural sprawl). So the folks in the greenbelt areas and taxpayers in general get to have tax increases while losing their quality of life. Our schools are over-crowded, water is a huge issue and the dangerous roads are worsening with plenty of gridlock. The air in Florida not too many years ago was pristine. Red tide drives people away from the beaches and makes them ill. Now we have days of smog that settle, even out in the country. Thanks Sue, for the excellent information about the polar bears!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 3:29 am:

Ha, ha!! This is great! Neat discussion. Wanda and Vicki, I, too, spoke against careless development in the early nineties. It was on a crucial wetlands area by my house. I called in the EPA ( who came out and investigated ).."NO WAY" they said. "You can't drain and fill a wetlands, and you cannot put a parking lot on a stream bed." The two young men lost their jobs. So then, I contacted the Sierra Club. Another young man came out and was outraged at the destruction that had already taken place. He wrote a letter to the newspapers ( published )and then turned to his superiors in the club....they were livid and told him he was facing severe disiplinary action. He told me this when he called to let me know that he had been told to "keep his nose out of it." So, anyway, the building was built ( a school for the severely handicapped )and the surrounding area flooded, flood abatement was done - successfully - and the school has been redone twice since then due to flooding and plumbing problems and severe black mold problems. You see, developers and common people cannot sneeze on wetlands....but the government can plow them under...and the Sierra club seemed to enjoy a great relationship with the government. Good luck guys! Want some advice? Take an official looking briefcase with you. Sit in front and shuffel papers constantly and pretend you are taking notes on EVERYTHING. Even better - attend some meetings that have NOTHING to do with your topic - and pretend you are taking notes furiously. It drives them nuts. It's the only fun thing about the whole ordeal. THEM = county, local and state officials.

Erika - Yes, I saw you were from that area! But as for the oil dependence...did you see where the Kennedys blocked the windmills out in the Atlantic Ocean 6 miles off the coast ( from their Hyannisport compound )because they would be an eyesore? And California had them set up in some canyon ( Topanga? ), but some birds got killed so they were shut down. Here in S. Jersey, they are up and running in Atlantic City - powering one of the casinos - personally, I think they look great! NJ also has a plan, as do many other states, to help with generous monetary assistance in the installation of solar panels.

Cindy - I'm with you! Nuclear power is the answer. I thought so back in the early eighties
( invested in it ), then the environmentalists brought that clean energy to a standstill. Even France, that bastion of environmental greenity, gets a large portion of it's energy from nuclear power. If THEY can have it, so can WE!

Vicki: that nasty stuff from the beaches I was talking about was hospital and medical waste - of the grossest sort. It did not wash up in some other beach across the hemisphere....it stopped because the Jersey Shore was losing $$$. The waste was traced back to the exact areas and sometimes offices and hospitals it came from in New York. HEAVY fines were imposed. It stopped. However, the reason it started, was because the government ( read OSHA ) instituted the policy of "Red Waste" and it's disposal. You must sign special disposal papers so it can be traced. The haulers must be licensed to haul it ( at great expense to all ). A Dr. friend of mine once asked a Red Waste hauler where and how this was disposed of that caused it to be so expensive. He was told that it all still went to the same landfill, and all the extra $$$ went to the government. So, once again, $$$ cleaned the beaches. And, don't get me wrong...the beaches and waters are clean....that's all that matters.

Cindy, dear, you need a generator for that well pump! Either that or install a manuel pump you can switch to. It's not that long ago that I had to haul water when the pipes froze in bitter winter cold snaps. Thank heaven that has passed.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 11:33 am:

Ah yes generator yep that was the answer!! When we built here there was me and then there were the guys; husband, builder,electricans all saying naw don't need one little lady, OH HA!!! I was also the one out there with hair dryer thawing frozen pipes, I want a windmill!! About 35/40 years ago Walt Disney put out a book on nuclear energy which I wish had been read by everybody! Something about do not fear the genie in the bottle learn how to control it! The french are who my husband works for so know about them 1st hand!Lee, your idea on how to present at meeting was great,been there done that and it works rather well!! Cindy
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 12:04 pm:

Thanks Lee! A little levity is most welcome after my trip to the Twilight Zone last night -- or was it another planet? Let's see -- greed, lies, meanness and general stupidity -- nope it was this planet! A quote of mine made the local paper, but of course it was one that was all fluff rather than anything meaty that was said. The newspaper is owned by the developer that has enlarged the town to unbelievable size. They have no master plan of any kind -- just that they will annex miles to the County lines and to the Chain of Lakes and River. Everything is approved and they worry about the details later, which leaves the surrounding neighbors with very little say in anything and the taxpayers holding the bag for everything. Here in Florida even significant wetlands can be filled in by the government or BIG developers. Not to worry -- just pay for some mitigation. There are actually some "wetlands" down south that are BETWEEN FREEWAY LANES. Sadly, 80% of the "wetlands" resulting from mitigation action never actually function as wetlands.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 4:07 pm:

Here is an interesting pic a glacier in 1941 and then now... and how its melted. I got it from one of those alarmist sites... the audobon. grin...

Florida audobon group is really big on pushin glacier warming, not sure if its the same for audobon in general but, this photo was taken from a power point presentation they on their site talking about this exact same thing... then again, florida would be the first to go when the seas rise... And we spend billions a year on coastal reconstruction. Don't want those hi-rises to fall into the ocean...huh? Personally, i can't wait!! There are very few places in florida left where you can park your car and go to a beach. Its all private lands. Or designated public that are so crowded that its just not really all that fun anymore.

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 11:37 pm:

Vicki, if you want to go with a degree rather than ½ a degree that is fine, change my above statements to read one degree if you like . I think the one degree figure is looking at the temperature variance over a tiny amount of time, the fast few years, which have without a doubt been warm years. Or perhaps they are looking at the Arctic alone, which appears to have grown warmer faster that the rest of the world. After all the Antarctic has grown colder in the last 20 years. There are some very fine climatologist who don’t believe there is a real increase at all in the 100 year model. The Arctic has been as warm or warmer than it is today," says University of Alabama at Huntsville climatologist John Christy. He cites temperature data from the Hadley Centre in the UK showing that from 70 degrees north latitude to the pole, the warmest years on record in the Arctic were 1937 and 1938. Even your one degree falls in the norm of the last 100 year. Consider,
  • it was just last December that there were record colds in the Northwest (Dec 7th Yellowstone Park).
  • The highest temperature ever recorded on earth happened is Al'Aziziyah, Libya 57.7 C (135.9 F) on the 13th September, 1922
  • and the highest recorded temperature in the USA was Death Valley 56.7 C (134.0 F) on the 10th July, 1913.

You know it strikes me that if the world were spiraling out of control with heat it would be more than 94 years since the highest recorded temp ever. Of course this high could be broken tomorrow and that is the nature of nature. Even if this temp was broke the current fluctuations are within normal ranges over the past 100 years.

Imagine you were born in the spring and only knew what had happened since you were born. Now that summer has rolled around you are thinking, my lord, the world is burning up. However winter is just a few months away. If you could look over the millennium this may be just May compared with some of the warm periods. Of course our May this year was unusually cold.

Jojo, concerning the photo I hear this is happening on Mars too, though if you took a photo of my farm in the winter after a heavy snow and them again in July, the effect would be very similar. I do not have the confidence you do in Sierra. Sierra supports Kyoto, is very anti-technology, anti-nuclear energy and is increasingly involved with animal rights groups like PETA. I frankly don’t know anymore if the Sierra Club today, at the national level, would support your rights to keep horses on your property. If they believed and could convince the gov’t that your property was a essential habitat for an animal they considered endangered, using The Endangered Specie act they would take your property from you. Some of their state officials have come out in support for environmental terrorist acts.

According to Nobel laureate Norman Borlaug, "father of the green revolution," the reckless actions of groups like the Sierra Club may hinder our ability to feed future populations. "I now say," Borlaug told a De Montfort University crowd in 1997 "that the world has the technology either available or well advanced in the research pipeline to feed a population of 10 billion people. The more pertinent question today is whether farmers and ranchers will be permitted to use this new technology. Extremists in the environmental movement from the rich nations seem to be doing everything they can to stop scientific progress in its tracks." 1977, this seems positively psychic as Africa today turns down growing genetically modified seeds, and even foodstuff grown from such seed, that would greatly reduce famine there.

For more on these issues and other information about Sierra check out https://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/194 for more. Most of this information I was already aware of from other sources but The Wall Street Journal gives the publisher on the this article a positive nod. Recently they had a president leave the organization because of the propaganda and the pseudoscience used to support their radical positions on environmental issues. He wrote a book about this which I cannot find a reference too right now.

It should be noted again. I do not have the position that the world is not warmer. It may be a ½ degree warmer, or a degree if you fudge the numbers to just the recent past or pick limited areas like the arctic. Of course doing this you could also show the world cooler, like if you looked at Greenland or the Antarctic. I also have the position that continuing to improve our environmental impact is a good thing. Both of these are clearly stated above. Are we disagreeing over Kyoto?
DrO
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 12:31 am:

Now you have me all confused? is sierra and audobon the same? I had said it came from Audobon. But i wouldn't really support anything right now that PETA does. They are getting way out of control...i would agree the photo could be construed that way. But why?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 7:40 am:

Ohh, excuse me jojo, the confusion is mine. I had seen the above photo on a Sierra site and I should have re-read your post to refresh the source. As you might can tell what is happening to the Sierra Club really worries me as the foremost represenative of the environment. The last president Adam Werbach book's title "Act Now, Apologize Later," seems to say it all. I am hoping the new president Lisa Renstom, from NC, will improve the organizations stance on respect for private property but a lot of the really out-there stuff seems to happen at the state level.

Though I have not done as much research on Audubon, I have a lot of respect for them particularly our state chapter.

The above photo has a problem in that it is too wide, forcing the browser window to scroll and making the posts hard to read could you repost a resized one, say 500 pixels wide, and I will replace the larger one.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 10:48 am:

You can find some of this in any club. There are always some members who are out of line in any organization and I in no way would give carte blanche support to everything they do, say, or support. I used to be a member of them all, and know some excellent individuals who have been involved in several of those clubs, but am rethinking my giving as of late and increasingly donate to local groups whose focus is more narrow. You make some good points, Dr. O and I think it is great to have this kind of exchange. Hopefully all of us can broaden our thinking a bit. If you want to poke into the backgrounds of congress you will find some real criminals, law-breakers, shady dealers, questionable motives, etc. -- in either party.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 9:35 am:

With the Sierra Club, militant environmentalism was starting to work it's way to the top with the last president (Act Now and Apologize Later) and I hope the new one returns it to one that protects the environment while protecting private property rights. The two are not mutually exclusive of one another as Lee had personally observed above.
DrO
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 12:08 pm:

"Act Now and Apologize Later", hmmm I would have thought that was a book on the US's past energy policies. The following is a repost of an entry from the attempted move of this to a political thread on global warming.

If some other state decides to develop nuclear power plants, more power to them; literally. However, I believe they also need to take on the total responsibility including managing the waste; preferably in their own backyards.

As I live within 300 miles of Yucca Mountain and have family even closer, my biggest problem with the waste disposal is that all the states with nuclear power plants seem to want to ship their waste to Nevada, a state without a single nuclear power plant. This is exacerbated by the current administration's twisted, IMO, interpretation of imminent domain. I fail to see how anyone can justify development of nuclear power generators before they have a complete lifecycle plan for waste disposal that doesn't just ship the problem elsewhere. Note that this is one issue that has effectively united all Nevadans, on both the left and the right.

The long term effects of the above ground nuclear testing performed at the Nevada test site and Los Alamos on the "down wind" populations of Southern Nevada, New Mexico and Utah are well documented as substantially increased cancer rates. I think the desert southwest has more than done "its share" of being the test laboratory for the country.

I agree that immediate health problems were the motivation for many of the clean air/water actions taken to date as opposed to concerns about global warning. The general health of the population should be the guiding principle here as well.

We're pretty certain that there are no negative side effects from solar power. Orinthologists will tell you that many birds are killed by wind-powered generators, but I'm pretty much OK with that. We know that radiation kills. Let's not make the same mistake with nuclear power that we have with oil; assume there are no bad unintended consequences and we have all the bases covered so damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 12:39 pm:

The idea of shipping nuclear wastes across the country seems an insane idea to me! The possibility of a wreck or terrorist act should rule it out. The security (against terrorist acts) at our present nuclear plants has been of concern, and you are quite right that all of those problems (including waste disposal) should be satisfactorily addressed before there is more nuclear expansion.
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