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| Discussion on Barefoot frog ouchiness | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 7:08 pm: I cant find my original post where I posted pictures of my barefoot horse. I wanted to post on that. Anyway he is now 6 -7 months barefoot he was not one step lame on the rockiest of rocks, now at 6-7 months his frog and digital cushion area is very sore. It started when he was taken off the rocky paddock into green wet pasture about a month ago. His feet look perfect his walls have thicken about double thickness and he is starting to concave nicely. Now he should be walking heel first but is sore so is landing toe first which is causing shoulder and knee pain. He has started stumbling. His feet look perfect. His soles are still rock hard. How can I go from the soundest horse ever to this. My trimmer says that once he strengthens the digital area of the frog he will be fine. But if he is not walking on it I am concerned. Should I be or is this just a transition stage.Or am I just being a worry wort again? Katrina |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 8:17 pm: I don't know, Katrina, must be a New Jersey thing! I have a thread going about one horse's hoof problems, and yesterday when I rode her dam on the trail she was very ouchy, too. Barely made it back home and she has been doing so great--really nice cinder footing on the trail, too...maybe all the humid and stormy weather is softening their frogs back up? The grass probably holds a lot of moisture.Erika Erika |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 8:58 pm: Erika, It must be,I have never lived somewhere that rains soooooooooo much. When people complain about a DrOught I think to myself you don't know DrOught. Growing up in aus we were lucky to get rain once a month and that was maybe an inch. The horses had great hoofs.. Its so frustrating. I am going to hear it from the nay sayers. They are all going to say I told you so no horse can go barefoot in this area. Ugh. I am not giving up. How can I when his hoof wall is thicker than its ever been. I am going to wait another 6 months unless I have severe problems. Please god don't let that happen. I don't understand the strasser method of soaking all the time. ? Erika you have to keep me updated. Where are you in NJ? |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 7:35 am: Katrina, don't give up. I know plenty of people who go through ups and downs with barefoot. But the majority of then do just fine most of the time. Even here!Even if you have shoes, there will be time when the horse is sore, or loses his shoe right before an event, right? I think I recall from other posts that you have boots, right? I think we just boot when necessary and remember that fall is usually so much dryer, so hang in there! I am trying hard to do the same. I live in Stillwater (near Blairstown/Newton). I am lucky to report that the Paulinskill Valley State Park Trail cuts right through my property. Also ride in Allamuchy with Spring Valley Hounds, and occasionally with Windy Hollow Hunt in Sussex and Warwick areas. Lots of great hunter paces coming up. Are you into them? Perhaps I'll see you on the trail this fall. BTW, I belong to a trails association that has a wonderful email network informing of local horse events and issues. It is only ten dollars per year to join. Includes trail maps of NJ once they finish them...let me know if you would like more info on it. Erika |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 8:04 am: Erika you are right. I am not giving up. I just have to close my ears when they say horses cant be barefoot here. Wow you have great trails. I can ride across to Waywayanda state park also. Its great to be able to ride for days not covering the same track. I love hunter paces. I also do the windy hollow paces. I am on the border of Warwick and Vernon. I took last year off the paces because my horse was becoming a nut wanting to gallop everywhere. The last one I did he turned into a rodeo champ because I was keeping him behind my friends. He did not stop bucking maybe 20 good ones before he got me off. I had the bitless bridle on and you cannot get the head up for anything kicking him forward just made the bucks bigger. Little bugger. This was the beginning of the pace. I got back on and finished 3rd in the pace. Any way we spent the year on full training and he has not bucked since and I now keep a snaffle on him I am too old for that kind of ride. I hopefully will be doing them this fall. I dont have a trailer so I go with my girlfriend.I would love info on the trail riding association. I board at Pete and Alice Martin's I dont know if you have heard of them They used to compete in competion trails. They are now around 70yrs and still ride. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 8:24 am: I forgot to mention the frog is lower than the heels. It hits the ground first.The trimmer cuts it back to make it level but it grows faster than the heel. Is this good or bad?Katrina |
| Member: Suzeb |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 11:09 am: Hi Katrina,Your original post with pictures is here: https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/71765.html I don't know why the frog would be growing faster than the heel, but it is my understanding that routine trimming of the frogs can make a horse sore or sensitive. There has to be a reason why your trimmer is doing this and the only way to find out is by asking him/her. Perhaps it is just the change in the footing underneath...firm rocky ground to soft and cushioned pasture. Susan B. |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 2:36 pm: Katrina and anyone else interested, here is the information about the trails association:Carol Dilley - President Skylands Trails Association and Foundation Inc. 14 Turpin Road, Blairstown, NJ 07825 908 459 4177 caroldilley@earthlink.net www.skylandstrails.netfirms.com https://www.skylandstrails.netfirms.com/ |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 2:38 pm: Be sure when you join, to ask Carol to put you on her email network.Erika |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 3:29 pm: Thanks Erika and Susan,I now know what the problem is. He has bruised heels which is causing him to land toe first and also to stumble. My new question is does anyone know how long this will take to heal? I have ordered comfort pads to raise his sole and heel of the ground and will also put vet wrap on with his boots. I don't know if its because his heels are too low or because his old macs are rubbing. My friends horse is also ouchy and she also had great feet until a month ago, she doesn't use boots |
| Member: Suzeb |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 9:20 pm: Hi Katrina,Here is a quote from your first post "It started when he was taken off the rocky paddock into green wet pasture about a month ago. His feet look perfect his walls have thicken about double thickness and he is starting to concave nicely. Now he should be walking heel first but is sore so is landing toe first which is causing shoulder and knee pain. He has started stumbling." What I get out of this is that your buddy has trouble in the back part of his feet....can't put them down because they are sore/sensitive....so he is toe walking. I am not sure about your friends horse...but, is her horse using the same trimmer and is her horse living on the same environment? Maybe the trimmer lowered the heels a little too quickly or the change from rock hard and dry to soft and cushioned with lush grass made the difference. Keep digging, you will find the answer! |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 10:34 pm: Katrina and Erika: You guys are stirring up some old memories...but I might be wrong...or mixed up. I'm remembering Borderland stables, and Ginny Martin, who started a riding program for the handicapped - late seventies to early eighties maybe. Used to have a benefit Run, Ride and Tie each year....any connection? I definitely remember the Windy Hollow Hunt. There was a H.Dyke, who was master of the hounds, I think. Am I totally off base? I know Waywayanda well, but never rode there. We boarded in Monroe, NY back then and had access to Goose Pond Park. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 6:54 am: Hi Lee,I am across the rode from Borderland. The mountain side. Virginia Martin owns Borderland and her brother Pete owns where I am. I am lucky I can ride both properties. You are correct about the run tie and ride, they have orienteering competitions paces and more. The windy hollow paces are not far from here, I am so lucky to be where I am I have well marked trails and then I have the mountains they go into Barry lake then into Waywayanda. I still haven't done all the trails after 2 years. We make a lot ourselves just tape ribbons to the tress so we can find our way back. Katrina |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 7:10 am: Hi Susan, ThanksWe are both using the same trimmer. He cuts the frog back to heel height to keep a balanced trim, as the frog grows so much, He says that the horses will get better as the frog and bulb get tougher its the slowly changing hoof shape. He says not to worry. Thats easier said than done. Yes it did start when put onto wet pasture. He has tiny punctures on his heel that looks like a blister popped. And his bulb is very sore.So many different things could be the cause and I am over thinking. Maybe its the wet? Maybe my boots are rubbing (they never did before) though his feet are getting smaller? Or its the trim. My girfriend has never worn boots so thats not her problem. We just found a huge sore just behind her armpit so when she walks she rubs it. I feel like I am grasping at straws. It makes it harder when everyone things you are stupid for going barefoot. I guess I have to slowly eliminate each thing till I find the cause. I still want to give the barefoot at least a full year as they say thats how long it takes with some horses. I do love the way his feet look. Katrina |
| Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 8:56 am: Stupid for going barefoot? I find that kinda amusing, (O.K., so my caffeine from tea hasn't kicked in yet, grin)I think people put waaay to much stock in the need for shoes. If horses were meant to have shoes, they would have been born with them, IMO. Too much moisture makes them soft and ouchy. If you can stall them say 12 hours a day, letting them out in the wet pastures less may help the foot harden up again. And the horse may have come in contact with some weed that caused the blisters and tiny punctures. |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 9:01 am: Hey Lee and Katrina,Sure I know Borderland, and Virginia Martin is very well known for allowing riders access. Lots of paces and things there. I don't get up that way much any more though since I decided my Saddlebred is too hot to hunt ("I don't know how you stayed on!" was being said way too frequently after Sugar would jump a three foot coop with a six foot clearance!). I do pace up that way here and there while I wait for my younger horse to show if she is hunt material. As for the barefoot, Katrina, I'm sure you've seen my posts about my issues, too. Almost ready to give up and shoe with clips at this point. I like having them barefoot, but I wonder sometimes if our humid, often wet climate will keep our horses from ever being consistantly comfortable? For now I am sticking with it, since fall is usually drier. Will have to take it day by day. Interesting though that you pointed out that your horse's feet are getting smaller. Perhaps you do need new boots? Any amount of give may negate the protective qualities, if you think about it. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 9:33 am: I feel like crying. Just got back from the barn and Blaze is very sore. The barn owner is very mad and said he has never had so many lame horses, 2 and that maybe we should think of moving if we want to stay barefoot. I dont want to move. Maybe I have to suck it up and put shoes on. Ugh. |
| Member: Kstud |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 10:42 am: Hi, I do not want to cause any disagreements but here in Ireland it is often very wet too and bare foot horses just do not cope. I understand that if God wanted horses to have shoes he would have made them but then I don't think that God intended them to live in stables or work on artificial surfaces and eat a grain based diet. If it comes to a trade off between natural or lameness then to me the horses welfare is a main priority and I would not let them be in pain. Unless your horse lives out 24/7 on a natural pasture ie not in a field or other artificial enclosure, eats only what he forages and is ridden only on natural ground, then you will have problems at various times. Ultimately it is up to you to decide on balance what is best but in my experience people often underestimate the effect of grain based diets on hoof growth, similarly standing in any stall for any length of time will have an adverse effect on natural hoof growth. I love the idea of barefoot horses but as an idea it cannot work in isolation unless all the pieces of the natural jigsaw are there. A friend of mine has Connemara ponies in the West of Ireland and she does not shoe them ever there. However they live on a mountain, are never stabled, only get hay in extreme conditions no hard feed, and never work on a road or an arena. She has no problems and the fact that they are a tough native breed also helps BUT she also has a place near Dublin and if the ponies are good they go up there to be jumped and she has found that once they have to be stabled, or go into paddocks with a farmed grass and are worked on artificial surfaces, no matter what she likes, they always have to be shod. She has tried but in the end they all get shod or they spend more time on the lame list than actually working. This is one of the pay offs for keeping horses in what would be an unnatural system for them.Catherine |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 11:53 am: Katrina, many people are trying for years to get their horse's hooves to grow a large, healthy, tough frog.I do not understand why somebody would trim the frog down. Removing dead tissue that hangs loose and opening the sulci a bit if needed so it cleans itself better is good and restoring the frog's shape by removing flares is recommended, but trimming the frog down by even a small amount removes a lot of cushioning and function from a horse's hoof, I wouldn't do that. There's no problem I know occurring from a horse landing frog first. A large, tough, thick, untrimmed frog is a superb thing under a horse's hoof. I'd want all my horses fashioning a frog of this kind and not only landing on it but even moving the whole time on it if this was possible. Even removing the tough outer layer that forms on the frog is wrong. People do this often to make the hooves look shiny and new, but removing the callus from a barefoot horse's frogs and soles is not a good idea. Think of people who live barefoot. Would you really do them a favour if you take them to a beauty salon to have their feet soaked, the calluses rubbed off and their toenails polished ? How do you think they will walk afterwards? I think your farrier is a bit confused. We do not adjust the frog to the heels, we adjust the heels to the frog. Somehow I think that your horse's heels have been trimmed too low, can you post pictures of the horse standing on a hard surface ? Low heels can adjust to rocky terrain by forming callus on the heel bulbs and frog, so the lack of adequate heels and bars may not be apparent. When on wet grass, however, the callus will soften and the effect of too low heels will be obvious in the bruises he'll collect with every stone he steps on. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 12:32 pm: Christos,I dont know why he touched the frog when I told him he was tender there. I dont have a picture now but his heels are getting lower too low which is forcing all the weight bearing on the frog and heel which is now so bruised he cant put weight on it. I have to try and convince my barn that I think its the trimming and let me stay barefoot a while longer to prove it. I know in my heart that the bruised bulbs and frogs are from the trimming not the rocks . I will try and get pictures. If I can find a flat area. |
| Member: Amara |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 1:18 pm: how can your barn force you to put shoes on your horse? dont know many barns that have THAT type of control over what you want to do with your horse...sometimes as you barefoot a horse they will transition.. you say you've only had him barefoot for 6-7 months.. it can take a year or more for it to be right.. they can go from good to bad and then back as the foot changes... environment changes can play a huge deal in things... as christos said cutting off dead frog is normal, tho a horse that's able to move around should shed off a large majority of the dead stuff... depending on where your trimmer trained, there are different theories as to how much frog should be trimmed... i am in agreement that you dont touch frog and toe calluses... i follow what gene ovineck says.. my horses land ever slightly frog first and they are completely sound.. even to working the streets... kc lapierre believes in trimming frog down tho... is your horse stalled some of the time? is he only living in a grass pasture? could be more than wet conditions as you mentioned, but something in the pasture as well... since he moved from rock conditions to grass pasture, was his body/stomach able to handle the dietary change? could he have perhaps foundered? while it is true that barefoot horses are less likely to founder, that doesnt mean it's always that way... |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Hi Melissa,The barn owner gets upset when they are lame. I understand that. But he wont listen when I tell him its not the rocks. If it were he would have been lame right from the start. He is in about 8 hours during the day, so his feet have a chance to dry out. I thought it had to do with the wet at first. Maybe it partialy is but I dont think its the whole. In which the barn owner uses that as another reason for shoes ( you cant control the weather). The more and more I think about it. The heels are too low so then the trimmer cuts the frog even with the heel wall. On a horse with already low heels why would he have leveled them with the sole if they were too low. Shouldn't he left them a little longer to help bear some of the weight. The barn owner also thinks its ridiculous that it takes a year for transition. There are 3 of us barefoot. He is saying that maybe we should move if we continue barefoot. He is not mean or bossy just hates seeing a horse lame. He is an old timer and believes what he believes. He doesn't want to hear what I have to say. I love this barn and the people here. I just wish they would understand, I also do think the boots are agrivating it they are a little too large now his feet have shrunk.. Its probably a combination of all 3 things. I hope the barn owner will give me a little more time. To prove it was his heels/bulbs and frog that is sore. His sole is still a rock and his walls are thickening up so nicely. In the mean time I will not let the trimmer touch his heal or frog until he is sound. I will cry if I have to put shoes on now. We have come sooo far. |
| Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 5:21 pm: CatherineYou are absolutely correct. My horses were just trimmed and we discussed the barefoot vs shoes issue. In his opinion, about 50-60% of the horses need shoes for a reason, the rest are just put on for cosmetic appeal. Reasons for like endurance riding where the horses will wear the hoof down very fast, or some lameness issues, or ouchy feet depending on the situation. I only meant that we should try to make the hooves healthy through nutrition and proper management first and less reliance on shoes. KT, How awful you are worried about your horse and the barn owner is giving you fits also. I hope it all works out for you both. |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 12:12 am: Oh, Katrina, I DO know exactly where you are - and it is beautiful. It warms my heart to know that Virginia is still there and part of my fondest memories live on.I boarded for more than 30 years before I could make a home for my horses. It's frustrating when you don't have the final say. Technically you do, but it may come hand in hand with your eviction notice. It all comes down to weighing the pros and cons after figuring out how serious the barn owner is. Sometimes, when you're horse is getting a superb quality of care, much higher than what you are paying for, you have to tread lightly. Especially if you're in with a good group of people. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 7:32 am: Hi Lee, Yes it is so beautiful over here. I love it. Virginia doesn't teach any more because of health reasons, but she is doing OK now. Her brother owns where I am . He is wonderful as is his wife. He is a lot more lay back that Virginia . Except about barefoot. I asked them to let me find out first if it was too large boots rubbing or it was too much trimming or if it is actually the wet and rocks. If it proves to be the later I will give in and do shoes. They seemed happy with that at least I hope. I found a barefoot trimmer to come for a second opinion. She is much more experienced than my guy. She is coming Monday to check both my horse and my girlfriends. I hopefully will feel better after that. She also said my guy has only been doing it a year. So its possible he did take too much. Boarding is so difficult especially when you grew up with them on your own property. You have so much more control. But where I am they treat them like there own which is why he is so concerned about the lameness. I understand his point of veiw.After all who can say who is right or wrong, not me I just have to get all the info I can so I know I am not doing the wrong thing, Katrina |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 3:36 pm:          Looking at these pictures makes me see the feet in a different light. They are terrible pictures because he was not tied up and I am crawling under him holding feet and trying to take a picture. The soles are really the only thing I loving looking at the pictures. If you compare them to the last ones in the link you will see the concaving and the walls a bit thicker. See how low his heel is? |
| Member: Zarr |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 4:49 pm: Kt if you have not been to HealthyHoof.com try it, pictures are very good and it will lead you to other links. Pete Ramey has been on Clint Andersons show on RFD TV and seems to be very good! Mine have been barefoot for years now and it literally saved one horse from constant lameness. Good luck Cindy |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 5:02 pm: Katrina, I'm laughing because I know how difficult it is to get clear pix of your horse's feet. I've been doing it for another thread and I dread it every time!Those of you who come up with good ones are incredible. But yeah, the heels look really low. Erika |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 5:29 pm: Cindy, Yes I think I have been to every barefoot site ever. My trimmer was trained by Pete Ramey The second opinion trimmer has been trimming for 13 years been to pete Ramey clinics but actually studied under another barefoot trimmer. Cant think of the name off hand.Erika I am so glad no one was watching me. It was the only place that was flat without shavings. No where to tie him and a patch of grass he wanted really bad. The whole time I was saying stand, stand, stand, I am under his belly in a few shots. It was a candid camera moment. I sent pictures to the trimmer who is coming to look at his feet Monday. She says nothing bad really stands out. Maybe he just took too much of the frog. Cant wait till she comes out. My barn is happy I am getting a second opinion. Phew! |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 12, 2006 - 1:52 am: Difficult to tell from these pictures, Katrina.But I think the heels are a bit low, I would like to see them a tiny bit higher and the toe squared/rolled a tiny bit more. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 12, 2006 - 7:29 am: Thanks Cristos, I don't know why he keeps lowering them. I can square the toe that's no problem. Cant wait to find out what the other trimmer saysKatrina |
| Member: Zarr |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 12, 2006 - 11:09 am: Kt. thought you probably had but I know what it is to try and help, you search til you can't read anymore! It took 3 trys(farrires) when my mare foundered but we made it! Wish I was young enough to do my own, and yes the heels look low from here too, best wishes and sound feet, Cindy |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 12, 2006 - 5:47 pm: Thanks Cindy. I really appreciate your help.Thank you for trying to help. It is a great web site isnt it. Thanks for your wishs Katrina |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 12, 2006 - 7:50 pm: Dr O Do you have any thoughts. I know this is not a major problem like what you have to deal with, but your thoughts would be appreciatedThank you Katrina |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 13, 2006 - 4:01 pm: I kinda got lost when the posts got split up Kt. Let me find the original and see if I can put it all together in the morning when I get back in the office with a decent connection.DrO |
| Member: Suzeb |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 13, 2006 - 11:52 pm: Hi Katrina,IMO, these feet look lovely . However, maybe your trimmer was just a bit too enthusiastic about getting those heels down and has made your horse sore. One thing that I have noticed, is that his feet seem a bit more rounder in these photos than from your original post, which is in the link above. Maybe, something to help you is to keep a journal from trim to trim. Take some width and length measurements and note wet or dry footing to help you sort out what is going on. Hope this helps, Susan B. |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 11:57 am: Thanks Susan, I started that then sort of forgot about it. I will from now on.Yesterday when I went to see Blaze he almost looked like he has laminitis the way he was walking. on eggshells almost. He is standing funny. I am a bit scared now The trimmer came out today she doesn't think he developed laminitis but I said to her they can get it very mild. Anyway she said he had great feet. the frog and all the bars taken off were probably making him sore. I am still concerned I still don't feel at ease. He did walk a little better on very soft footing. I am not sure whether to get the vet out or not. I don't like the way he stands all feet are tucked under him. Don't lamintic ( spelling) horses stand all spread out to take weight off the toes. Katrina |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 12:56 pm: Hi Katrina, sorry to hear that he's worse. I hope it's not laminitis.As to your question, if it is only affecting the front feet, the horse will stand with his feet sort of gathered. That is so he can put more weight on the back feet to relieve the front. If you suspect laminitis,please call the vet ASAP. There is a lot you can do to minimize damage if you do it early. Good luck, Erika |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 1:24 pm: Thanks Erika,I am treating him the same as if it was just incase. The only thing I can not do at my barn is 24 hour stall. So I am going to put boots on with padded carpet in soles when he goes out at night. His stall is very thick with shavings and he is on bute. If he does or did it is not caused by grain it would have been caused by pain and not standing properly. His feed is hay and grass (not much grass left) |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 1:28 pm: Forgot to mention the digital pulse is fine now no heat either.Katrina |
| Member: Erika |
Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 2:54 pm: Great Katrina,Sure hope that's not the problem. Just a note though, we've had some beautiful fall-like weather lately that sets up the grass for sugar storage. Short grass is especially prone to it. My mare that foundered twice years ago did it in September with weather just like this--warm days and cool nights on short grass. You sound like you have things under control. Erika |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 2:00 pm: I went and looked at the originals and above Kt and don't see the cause of your problems in them. His feet are similar to other barefoot horses I see that are fine. Yes we can discuss there may be a touch of a-p imbalance (the white foot looks Ok but the pigmented foot a bit low in the heels) and the foot may even display a little m-l imbalance but these could be just the angles the pictures are shot at. It is hard to be sure from these images. A little larger image with the horse standing square and the camera turned so that we can see about a 1/3 of the distal cannon would help give us a bit better reference.Concerning the founder possibility usually a horse will stand with their back feet up under them and the fronts propped out front (for more on this and other diagnostic signs, see the founder overview article). Considering all, and especially if founder seems likely, I do think it is time to get your veterinarian involved and get another opinion from someone who can actually examine the horse. In the meantime I would follow the instructions in the Lameness First Aid article for care. DrO |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 5:34 pm: Hi Dr O thanks for your opinion.The pigmented foot is the one that is a little more ouchy. I think the picture of imbalance at the back of the heels was my angle I was crouched under him while he was loose not tied and snapped it as I thought he was going to move. Will try and do better. Its hard to get him to stand square at the moment but I have had him in boots while turned out and seemed much better to day. He does not stand in the typical laminitis stance. All feet are under him not just the back and he stands on the toe to relieve heel pressure. With boots on he will stand square unfortunately that doesn't help for pictures. I will try and take pictures on Sat, My barn does not think a vet is warranted at the moment. I am giving it till the weekend. I am treating it as if it was laminitis as it certainly cant hurt. He seems happy and cheerful today. Can too much taken off the frog cause this much pain and if so what would be the time frame for him to feel better. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 7:24 am: The only time I have seen a horse with founder the front feet under him was when he was foundering in the back feet. Yes it is possible too much frog or sole can be removed but that is not evident in the above photos and the time for healing would depend entirely on how much too much was removed. The horse will be sore until he grows back enough horn to protect the sensitive tissues.DrO |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 6:13 pm: Thanks Dr O,He grew 1/8 inch of bar and heel the last 2 weeks and is walking much better. I wrote a post a while back about him standing slightly bowed in the knees on one leg. I have worked out that he was actually taking pressure off the heel, So I guess his heels have started to get sore a while back, My new trimmer is going to leave his heels alone and bars unless of course they become unruly. I was actually ably to ride in boots today and he was fine. He has had the boots on at turn out for a week just to get him to walk heel first again. It helped alot. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 6:31 am: Just as important as maintaining adequate sole depth is proper foot balance, neither should be sacrificed for the other.DrO |
| Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 6:53 am: Yes I agree Dr O . My old trimmer I found out was only doing it for less than a year so I can see how that happened. I did not know at the time. My new trimmer has more experience so hopefully she will correct any imbalances. The last trim was different than previous trims. His feet really did not look right. His toes were pointy and not rolled. Fingers crossed this trimmer is good. After reading Jamie Jacksons book I truly believe he has feet that can stay barefoot if trimmed correctly. I don't want to be forced to put shoes on.Katrina |
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Helping Thousands of Equestrians, Farriers, and Veterinarians Every Day
All rights reserved, © 1997 -
is The Horseman's Advisor
Helping Thousands of Equestrians, Farriers, and Veterinarians Every Day
All rights reserved, © 1997 -
