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Discussion on Took the shoeless plunge ...
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 1:27 pm:
My mare has now been barefoot for about 4 weeks.
I chose this time of year carefully - we tend to work less over the holidays and I figured the ground would be fairly soft.
I had her shoes pulled and her hooves trimmed on a Friday and rode her in a lesson on Saturday. Prior to doing so, I painted her soles with iodine once or twice a week for a couple of weeks.
I could feel that she was different, but not at all unsound - just had a different feel without the shoes. She seemed to go fine in her lesson. Since then, I've ridden her several times and she goofed off a couple of weeks.
I rode her again this weekend, once in a lesson and once in practice. She seemed comfortable.
Now, I've noticed her front toes appear to be a bit "dubbed off" and her front frogs are expanding a bit - they had looked a tad contracted to me. Hind hooves look pretty normal.
She is due for a trim on the 19th - same schedule as her shoeing would have been. To my eye, it appears that most of the trim will be on the sides.
Our work has been in an arena made of "bluestone" - the very fine stone dust, and across grassy terrain. I've not gone on any rocky surfaces.
When hand grazing her, I have her walk on some rocky areas.
Her turnout is in a large paddock that has trees, pine needles, gum tree balls and soft soil.
Now, I plan to keep her shoeless until ... well, until what? How do I know if she needs shoes?
Oh, and I figure if I want to go on a trail ride, I'll put a couple of (not so) easy boots on front - do you think that is feasible?
Oh and I'm saving $50 a farrier visit.
Just thought I'd post my experiences so far.
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 4:27 pm:
Chris,
Your experience is encouraging.
I had taken the shoes off of my Arab for about 10 weeks, but that was due to illness. He has been blessed with very hard feet. Our ground here is very hard, like concrete, and he had very minimial chipping. His feet filed themselves down very nicely, although I did have the farrier come out at his regular time to trim, just as a precaution.
I share Chris' question. If I take him out on the trail (which is about once a week for about 2-3 hours, the rest of the time is arena work), and his feet are durable, should I bother to shoe or boot him? Our trails are rocky here in the southwestern desert. I would save $40 a farrier visit. I'm going to speak to my farrier about this. He is going to a clinic this month on shoeless trimming and feels my arab may benefit from going shoeless.
I guess my main question is, has anyone,under rocky conditions ever had experience going shoeless? Or is it a big no, no? If this question has already been addressed, sorry for bringing it up again. I just thought I'd jump right in to this discussion since Chris brought it up.
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 7:09 pm:
I used to work at a place that never shod the trail horses and they were on Very rocky trails up to 4hrs a day. I felt that they should have shoes for this type of terrain but i had no influence. the result though is kind of surprising as only about 10% went lame from stone bruising etc (out of 45-50 horses) I do not shoe as all my horses are fortunate to have very hard feet and i ride on grass and sandy trails.
If you take into affect the type of hoves your horse has and the terrain you ride on common sense should give you a fairly accurate answer.
Julie
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 7:47 am:
I agree with Julie, the best plan is to monitor the horses feet and the terrain that they will be on. At one spot where my horse was I did not shoe him at all because it was largely grass/dirt. We trailed a lot, but the rocks did not bother as they were infrequent. Where we are now I keep him shod because it's significantly more rocky. My farrier visits have cost anywhere from $25 (for trim only, barefoot) to $80 (rim pads,new shoes & studs). The cost should be the smallest factor to weigh in shoeing a horse. I know of one person who does not shoe her horses due to costs and 3/5 are lame because of it. My personal opinion is that horses prefer to be barefoot and if they have good hooves and you have good terrain, why not?
Teresa
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 7:50 am:
Hello Chris,
You remember seveal years ago we too began such an experiment. We never had problem on reasonable terrain, unfortunately a lot of our riding is on rocky or gravelly terrain. We knew we were pushing the horses feet when they became a little short striding on the trail. This may be a little dangerous unless you have a very good eye and watch them like a hawk, and are willing to walk the horse back to the barn. I do not think you will have the problem as long as you use the Easy Boots, we never did.
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 10:39 am:
I think if you are willing to make other adjustments in your horse's living conditions, you can go barefoot, regardless of the terrain. If in doubt of rocky terrain, use the boots. Remember to soak your horse's feet daily in water. Read everything by Jaime Jackson and Hiltrud Strausser, the books are the barefoot bibles. Also, refer to TheHorsesHoof.com or www.egroups.com/group/naturalhorsetrim it is a free listserv for barefoot believers and is full of valuable advice from Strausser gurus.
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 2:16 pm:
Hi everyone,
Just another experience. My mare (1/2 arab, 1/2 saddlebred) has been barefoot for years now. I originally started pulling shoes in the winter, because of the snow build-up. Then I found that she was going much better without shoes, and I kept them off. Incidently, when I bought her at age 6 she was barefoot, kept on a rocky pasture, and had the shortest hooves of any horse I had ever seen.
Anyway, her feet are very tough. Her large run has quite a few rocks, and gets quite hard in the winter, so maybe that helps. The farrier trims her every 7 to 8 weeks, and usually removes very little (about 1/4" or so). My trail rides are mostly over sand and clay, with some rocky slopes.
Not too long ago I went down an extremely rocky trail - she stepped on a rock and I heard the hoof
crack. Was I worried! She did not go lame, and at home I noticed that she had broken out a corner at the rim of the front hoof, but it was no big deal. That said, I do believe that hoof quality is
at least to some degree inherited.
I am hoping that our new little guy, the Rocky Mountain Horse, has inherited the tough hooves of his mother. Many people tell me, though, that I need to shoe him in order to develop his gaits. I will need to make that decision in the spring.
Good luck to all,
Lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 3:12 pm:
Hello Wicman,
Though you see this recommendation frequently about soaking a horses foot, I think it is a poor idea and if carried to extremes may lead to excessive drying and cracking. Think of other epidermal structures like your hands: nothing drys hands quicker than wetting them. It is the oils and waxes present they retain the internal moisture and you lose these with wetting and drying.
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2001 - 3:56 pm:
I love reading about horses that are able to go barefoot. Our horses we have personality go barefoot all the time unless we are going on a long ride for weeks at a time. We encourage all our customers to pulls shoes in the winter and give those feet a 6 month break. Shoes have away of contracting the heels and not allowing the frog to hit the ground to pump the blood back up the leg. We ever trim the frog or the sole out of a hoof. We believe the frog his the heart of the hoof and that help the foot stay healthy. I see alot of talk about soles getting sore after trimming its because alot of farriers pear out all the sole which mother nature as put there for a reason. If you do have a tenter footed horse try turpentine and iodine crystals and paint that on the bottom of the foot to protect the sole. We also have used blue form (2" thick for building homes) cutout in a shspe of a hoof and duck tape it on. It will compress down in a couple of days, you then can tape on another one. We do this to our founders horses that the coffin bone has come through the bottom of the foot. We love to teach horse people about what make a healthier foot in a horse. My husband gets to teach this at San Juan Basin Technical School in April were sure excited. Well I better get back to work.
Denise
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2001 - 1:04 pm:
I decided last visit from the farrier to have my cob mare's shoes removed for the winter as she had pulled 2 off in the mud and she isnt doing much road work. her feet are chipping at the botton and when she was ridden last week, on grass she knocked a 2 inch or more long chunk out of her front hoof, right back to the inner wall. i called the farrier, who came and said there was nothing he could do except tidy it up and wait but that it might be months before there was enough horn to nail a shoe to. I have put keratex hoof hardener on her feet twice a week since her shoes were taken off but wish i had left them on.
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2001 - 12:18 pm:
Just an update to my mare's experience.
After 6 weeks, the farrier came out to trim. I've not had the courage to do anything myself. I've enrolled in an NCSU short course this spring to learn "how" and I may have the confidence to do a "3 week" touch up between farrier visits.
Anyway, the next day after her trim, my mare was short strided - the air time of her right front was longer than her left front. Since it was rainy, I walked her around the wet pastureland and noticed she was fine on it. So, I figured she was a bit uh, er "tenderfooted" and it would resolve.
Next day - same story.
Next weekend (I couldn't ride during that week) - she was still off! Only it was dry, so working in the pasture wasn't an option.
Now, I put on my sleuth and care hats and did some soaking of both front feet - waddya know - when the dirt was cleared off there were 3 nail holes on the inside RF and none on all the rest of her hooves as they'd grown out ....
So, I surmise she almost got "shod" out of habit and was quicked a little.
A few days of a little bute and hot soaks and voila, back to normal.
Now, while doing all this, I'd done lots more reading of Dr. Strasser's stuff, Jaime's stuff, assorted web sites, etc. in addition to Dr. O's article.
I think my mare's front hoof angle is good, the toes are nicely short and her frog is looking a bit less, uh, withered and plumper? I think she was a bit contracted, but I don't know how to really determine that. In any case, I do think her heels are a bit higher than they should be and I guess that is the next thing to get the farrier to adjust a bit. (I don't think he will like me making any suggestion, GRIN.)
Hind hooves look fantastic - they could be a photo example in Jaime's book.
I'll update at some point.
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2001 - 1:52 pm:
Chris,
Hoorah! I'm glad you are having such success. I'm seriously considering taking the shoes off of my Arab. We have stopped going on trail rides for a while and have been concentrating on arena work. Any trail rides we may take will be short and on as easy of a terrain as I can find. I believe he will benefit from the time off from the shoes. Thanks for the update.
Tammy
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Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2001 - 12:48 am:
Mine have no shoes most of the time & do fine. We ride mostly on pasture, crossing creeks, and some on chert roads. We always walk on chert. Sometimes we go a mile or two (two with a break in between) on the chert DR O, DO YOU THINK THIS IS TOO MUCH? I assume it is NOT ok to trot on chert?
I do have one that has had sand abcesses but he's been foundered before & that may have contributed to it. I've read that it's healthier for their feet.
Where or what is Jamies' book?
Thanks, Debbie
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Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2001 - 10:51 am:
Hi Debbie,
Dr. Strasser's book is "A Lifetime of Soundess" she also has a new one I've not read.
Jaime Jackson has two books.
All are available from:
https://www.alltel.net/~star/
Cheers.
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Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2001 - 11:54 am:
Dr. Strasser also has a book called, "Shoeing, A Necessary Evil?"
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Member:
Npennh
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 - 1:16 am:
Dr. O, Thank you for giving me the confidence to go shoeless with my gaited horses. I am having my farrier do the 4 point trim, and have ordered the "Swiss Boots" that Jamie Jackson's web site offers. My T. Walker I bought one month ago came with long, narrow mule feet. Trimmed natural and short with a" mustang roll" toe he is sound on sand, grass, and dirt trails under saddle. It has wrecked his gait with any speed in it, hence the" Swiss Boots". I also don't want to make him sore, and believe in the barefoot way, especially for this type of foot. He has excellent quality walls and sole, but a narrow foot from years in shoes and long feet.
Dr. O, How much change in the width might I see in this 6 year old T.W.going with this plan in 9 months to a year? He is turned out all day on a hilly, dryish dirt and grass mix and ridden 3 x a week on dirt trails and some ashphalt . He is barefoot behind now too, of course, and has a concave sole and not sore on any surface so far. Thank you any encouragement as I am mostly walking and slow gaiting, and wondered what changes in the hoof capsule shape you have seen or heard about that would be relevent.
Natalie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 12, 2002 - 7:00 am:
We have not had the shape of the feet change, particularly watching those horses with well established contracted heels. This was one of the reasons we tried shoeless. We have experimented with varios trimming techniques that were suppose to further promote resolving these problems without sucess. However the health of the soles and frogs has improved quite a bit.
DrO
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New Member:
Htrails
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 22, 2002 - 9:00 pm:
I am jumping in late as I have just run across this board - the above is of interest to me - of 3 Strasser type trimmed horses one has not decontracted as I would have liked - the hoof shape is better and the horn quality is MUCH better for sure but still not as round as I had hoped - Dr Strasser has a term in German that leaves me just now but it basically means that if a coffin bone was contracted badly or not fully developed through improper living conditions, from early shoeing or improper trimming then the hoof may never reach it's optimum potential.
I am curious to know how long you stuck with certain techniques - and how true you were able to stay to these techinques? For myself I have found it difficult to devote enough time to 3 horses to entirely follow Dr Strasser's protocal -we have had success in spite of this.
Thanks Risa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 7:59 am:
Hello Therisa,
We continue to keep our riding horses barefoot (going on 4 years now) and the two that came to us with well estabished contracted heel continue to remain contracted. Our horses are trimmed every 6 weeks and the foot is kept short and balanced, we do little more than that now. We use 4 point and new balance techniques for about 18 months.
I would like to add another comment about Old Macs. They are not standing up well to our riding. We have begun to have problems with the buckle staps in the back ripping and tearing though the problem seems isolated to just two of the newer boots. So far the company has been very good about replacing these.
DrO
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 9:47 pm:
First of all, I think it's awesome that all of you are going barefoot. I am beyond impressed that you are DrO, I knew I liked you!! Obviously I am pro barefoot.
Have any of you heard of Horsesneakers? Many I know that do barefoot have them, and think they are wonderful. They are custom made to fit your horse. If one finds they use the old macs that much, maybe Horsesneakers would be something you might consider worth the expense. Their website is www.horsesneaker.com. Check it out.
I have been doing intensive research, studying, clinics, and tons and tons of dissections. I have graduated from the United Horsemanship Hoof Groomer Course. This is taught by Martho Olivo. It is doing a physiologically correct trim. I am also going to do what is required to become what Martha calls a "Technician". Martha was a Certified Strasser Student, and modified the trim and now teaches it. She calls it the "Whole Horse Trim". She was formerly a farrier for 25 years, and now she will not shoe a horse, and also will never ride a shod horse either.  )
Also, these horses that have pathologies, proper trimming can bring them back into soundness. Contraction, especially inside the vertical is one of the toughest pathologies to correct. In fact, I am currently trimming one that not only is contracted beyond the vertical but has underrun heals to boot.
One must trim usually one or two times weekly on these hard cases,and keep this up until it is corrected. It takes alot of tweaking. If a horse can be put into a 'clinic' setting, such as Dr. Strasser does, then they can be turned around in as short a time as 6 months, but that is with all the exact requirements in that clinic, or 'hoof hospital'.
We have also found is that a horse can become sound completely, but if any contraction remains then they will have a bit harder time on rocks.
So the boot idea is great.
My TB would chip a ton of wall when he lost a shoe, he also clipped his fronts all the time, and paddled with the fronts terribly,now he has awesome feet, concavity also, doesn't paddle or clip the fronts at all, and can ride in rocks, etc. But I have not ridden him in mtns. or terrain such as that for long periods, he is still healing.
What I have also experienced is that once the foot starts to straighten out, heal- it begins to hold a good foot pattern, and becomes easier and easier to trim. One can then judge the proper amount of time between trims that does not let the horse become out of balance.
If anyone of you is interested, we have great discussions on a couple yahoo groups, all of us either have been doing, or are starting barefoot. Go to yahoo groups, and the two in paticular that I like are 'naturalhorsetrim', and 'barefoothorsecare'.
Lots of experiences and help and support here. Very great groups.
Melissa S.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 26, 2002 - 5:38 pm:
I have seen the horseseakers but have not tried them.
DrO
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 27, 2002 - 10:42 am:
You know what I noticed about my mare and her barefoot patterns was that after the initial few months of going shoeless, everything kind of just slowed down. If that makes any sense. I was wondering why she did that? All in all she is quite healthy and happy barefoot. And is / was a good decision. The newest dilemma is that the farrier doesn't really need to trim all that much ever.... She thinks her hoof isn't growing I just assumed she was trimming herself, etc. But I think I will add some vitamins for good hoof growth. ANy suggestions?
Melissa, those are great discussion groups I used to monitor them daily. I don't like the fighting that goes on about styles, though. It tends to get tedious when everyone is fighting for their way of trimming is the right way. There is another one too... Barefootedhorse...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 27, 2002 - 5:47 pm:
First check the total diet to see if there are any improvements to be made, if not then check out the recommendations at Equine Diseases » Lameness » Foot and Sole Problems » Horn Quality: Cracks & Rings in the Hoof Wall.
DrO
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 5:56 pm:
Actually, we are finding that when we first trim a horse that has had bad barefoot form or shoes, they grow quite rapidly - an increase of circulation, etc....as a foot becomes more sound, then growth slows down just a little. But, the more exercise and mechanism the hoof has, the more growth it will then have. DrO suggested diet which I think too is important.
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At times it can seem like bickering on the lists, but I have learned a tremendous amount by sifting through it all. It is getting better and better, and we are finding definite things that are working consistantly.
Hey, sounds like you need to learn to trim yourself. I have, and love it. My horses are doing great! I too have an OTTB, he's doing excellent barefoot.
Melissa
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Member:
Redwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 8:14 pm:
Has anyone tried the Horsneakers (not Horsesneakers) mentioned in Melissa's post? I am really tempted to buy a pair for my riding donkey's front feet as any other type boot just won't fit, but I'd hate spending so much money if they don't work or last. My donkey's hooves wear down quickly, and she's uncomfortable on our gravel road.
IMHO people should not be rigid in expecting all equines to go barefoot. Some animals, even donkeys, need some sort of hoof protection.
Nancy
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 12:30 am:
Melissa,
Its funny but I started to get all gung-ho and bought all the stuff. And then actually got down there and tried a quick little trim....shave.... and said " yeah right" .... I felt like a retard...LOL And then luck wouldd have it a farrier who actually believes in shoeless and has all her horses barefoot moved into the barn... So, needless to say my mare was saved from my piddling. I don't think I would have the energy to tackle all that is necessary to be good at it. Its sooooo involved.
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 1:16 am:
JoJ, yes, learning to trim can be quite daunting. I never ever thought I would want to, in fact, when I decided to take my horses barefoot it scared me alot! But I have taken clinics on barefooting, and we dissected between 14 of us, about 60 cadaver feet. I think that is the key to learning what a foot should look like. After trimming first, then dissecting each foot you could really 'see' first hand what the foot has to be shaped like in order to be sound.
But I do know alot of people do not have any desire to trim for themselves, and have someone else do it. It takes quite a while, and a lot of feet to become comfortable. You sure lucked out, lol, having a farrier move in that could do it for you!
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 1:21 am:
Nancy, I've heard a number really like the Horsesneakers, BUT they are very expensive. If you want me to, I can drum up some that have used them and give you a report...just let me know.
A question, why do you think some cannot go barefoot and must have protection?
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Member:
Redwood
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 3:33 pm:
Melissa,
Yes, I would like some feedback from people who have used the Horsneakers.
Why do I think some equines cannot go barefoot? I have four donkeys and rarely shoe them even when we take trips to the Sierras. My riding donkey has soft hooves. Also, she is gaited (amble) and sometimes slides her feet. She was shod once in her life. If I do any serious riding, her feet wear down quickly, she refuses to walk on gravel, and she stands with alternating front feet up like they are hurting her. She has an adequate diet, and I supplement vitamins and minerals. There is nothing wrong with her feet (no founder, no navicular, no problems with straightness and angles). Her feet just wear down quickly and don't grow fast. I'd rather use boots than shoe her, but it's hard to get boots that fit a donkey.
A friend of mine has a horse that has bad feet from previous poor shoeing. She tried going the barefoot route, but the horse was in misery and wouldn't even move in his stall. The vet told her she should have the horse shod.
Nancy
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 4:29 pm:
Finally my boss is making the switch to barefoot, and i'm impressed with her dedication... one of the horses, who has had shoes on his whole life (is now in mid20's, retired), was pretty sore at first... he was out on grass all day, and that was fine, but he hated walking in and out, since it was down a gravel drive to get there!... and his stall has an attached runout, that is gravel/dirt/sand mix, and at first he even avoided that...
but she kept with it, and its been about 3 months, and he's doing reallly good now... walks on the gravel drive just fine.. it may take a few months, or more! to get a good enough foot on a horse for him to no longer be lame, which is why a lot of people give up on it... but already this horse has a much better hoof, and no longer trips over his own feet on the way in and out of the barn - increased proprioception...
we're having a similar experience with another horse, but the other 3 horses are doing just fine..
my guy has been barefoot most of his life, except when he was a pulling pony, and some summers as a camp pony..
i pretty regularly ride/drive him for miles on the roads to get to the rocky trails.. never a sore step or a chipped hoof..
the only time i had problems with chipped feet was before he was my horse, and the guy who trimmed him didnt do a good job, leaving the toe to long, and not rolling the edges at all..
a better trim job and all that stuff is history..
in my experience most farriers who shoe DONT do a real good job doing straight trims... they take off too much sole,and dont roll the edges well enough... not all farriers are like this, but when going to go the barefoot route, i wouldnt use a traditional farrier, instead finding someone with experience in the propert trimming techniques..
some of the problems with sore feet, decreased sole depths, etc, are just from improper trimming..
(not ALL problems, mind you... some horses do need a little extra help, which is why the hoof boots are so wonderful..)
i sure am glad so many people are making the switch to barefoot, and i'm sure their horses are too!
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Member:
Npennh
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 5:19 pm:
Nancy, I posted twice earlier on this subject. I did not comment on my two adult Spotted Saddle horses( T.Walkers) that made the barefoot transition about 3 months ago. One had very under run heels, and separating walls at the quarters . The other grew too much heel, and I could never get a farrier to take it low enough. I read the Jamie Jackson and Strasser books, and found a trimmer who learned from and worked with Jamie come to Santa Barbara from Arkansas. He was already coming to Ca. and going up and down the coast trimming horses for "barefoot performance". My horses are doing BETTER than when they had shoes, and the hoof problems I mentioned above are grown out and almost gone.
I did buy a dremmel tool, and smooth out any cracks and chips from going up too high as the nail holes grew out.
I also ordered the "Swiss horse boots", and the sales site cut the toe out to fit the horses measurements. Then the trimmer (from Arkansas)helped me with the heat gun shape them to their feet.
I only need the boots now (3 months later ) if I trailer out and ride on rocky ground. I prefer riding them barefoot at home as it wears the wall away, and engages the hoof mechanism which issupposed to make stronger (future!) feet.On our trails, we have asphalt roads, dirt, and wood chipped dirt, and they go barefoot in all gaits soundly, although for the first month they wore the boots at home also when ridden. The "Swiss boots" from "Star Ridge" do fit a narrower type mule foot with both quarter inserts, and they rivet them in the boot for you. The boots are set at a 52 degree toe angle, but with the toe cut out , you scoot the toe out the hole, and that allows you to put a lower angled foot in it also.They don't come off either when you are riding!! I did use a pair on one horse's hind feet which were not fitted for them and had no trouble there either. We were rocks, and boots on just the front were not enough.
In conclusion, I would not ever go back to shoes, and hope in 9-12 months to have thick hoof walls and tough soles, and only need the boots on rocks. I have read that the key to their feet being tough on rocks is for the horses to live and ride on rocky areas as "their environment". I don't have this, so I am not expecting to be "boot free" in any and every environment. I have been more than surpised they are not only sound but better barefoot. at 3 months. The main fault of the swiss boots is that they can rub a mark at the coronet band or heels where it meets the hoof wall, I am going to use the heat gun there and try to perfect the fit, so when I ride on rocky ground I don't get rubs. The "Star Ridge" site has very specific measureing instructions. I may also check into custom molded "Horse Sneakers"in a year or so when a whole new, never shod hoof has grown out if the front feet need protection on rocks, which I assume they will.
Natalie
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Member:
Sumnera
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Posted on Friday, Nov 1, 2002 - 11:13 am:
Hi Natalie, I live in Lompoc--near Santa Barbara and have been trying to find a "Jame Jackson type" hoof care specialist for a long time. I'm very excited to hear about your success. Can you provide me with information about your farrier?
Thanks,
Aimee
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Member:
Npennh
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Posted on Friday, Nov 1, 2002 - 11:59 am:
Hi Aimee,
His name is Mike LaGronne. His cell number is (405) 880-4578, and may be easier to reach on it. His home number is (405) 624-9834.
He will be in Santa Barbara next Tuesday, Nov. 5th. Call him to see if you can get on his schedule. He is on pg. 254 of the blue book "Horse Owner's guide to Natural Hoof Care".
Want to hear a small coincidence? My X-farrier lives in Lompoc, and I loaned him Jamie's book to see if he was interested in learning this stuff!. There IS a difference, as someone in an earlier post pointed out, between a farrier who shoes, and a good barefoot trimmer. The farrier's tend to IMMEDIATLY nip off the frog where it touches the ground, and takes out too much sole to get to live sole as their starting point to trim for a shoe. The most important advice I can give anyone is to develop a picture yourself of what you want to see, and question everything, as there are a lot of differences in barefoot styles, medial /lateral balance competence,and, where trimming stops and sole excavtion starts for a non-foundered horse. Jackson's style is called "barefoot performance" in that the goal pretty immediatly is to return to your current level of riding and do it "better barefoot". I include any hoofboots in this catagory too, because they are used only when the horse is ridden . That allows the hoof mechanism to work as it was designed without the confinement of a shoe.Good luck!
Natalie
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Member:
Sumnera
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Posted on Friday, Nov 1, 2002 - 5:37 pm:
Natalie,
Thanks so much for the info! I’ll give him a call.
I take it that your X-farrier didn’t take to the ideas presented in Jackson’s book! My current farrier is Lompoc based as well (could be the same guy!). About a year ago, I attempted to go barefoot on my QH mare with his help. I used Easy Boots for riding and at first she seemed to do well. Over the course of a year her hoof health improved a great deal, but unfortunately her hooves never toughened up enough for her to be truly comfortable being barefoot--despite feeding hoof supplements, using hoof hardeners and being on continuous turnout. I don’t know if her tenderness is a result of genetics or the fact that my farrier isn’t a barefoot specialist. He had no interest in trimming my mare as often as outlined in Jackson’s book--we average every seven to eight weeks.
I’m very disappointed that she’s back in shoes because I really believe in the health benefits of going barefoot. Hopefully with Mr. LaGronne’s help we can be successful this time! Thanks again Natalie.... Please keep up updated on your horse's progress.
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 6:40 pm:
Nancy, I'll get on my barefoot groups and see if I can get some feedback on those Horsesneakers.
When you take a horse/donkey barefoot, it usually takes a full year to completely grow out a new hoof wall.
If the wall is wearing too much, then something is still amiss with the foot.
If their is any contraction in the heels present, which can be caused by shoeing, and it can also be found in hooves that have always been barefoot (barefoot does not equal sound unless it is a proper trim) then the foot will tend to be tender on rocks.
If a horse has been messed up with shoes for years, it will take some time, could be at least 1 year before that horse is fully sound. But it has to have a proper barefoot trim. If one pulls shoes, then you have to get a proper trim done. Sometimes it takes trimming just little bits a couple times a week.
Even if a horse is very sore, one must get it to walk (not on rocky ground) every single day. Being stalled is not good. The more movement and circulation, the more healing.
Usually in the very sore cases, the bars are overgrown. If you do not get them back to where they belong, it would be like walking with sticks in your shoes. So even if you barefoot, trim a little toe, but leave the bars overgrown, the horse will continue to be sore.
One really needs the support of someone familiar with a true barefoot trim to attempt it, and get through those sore times.
Many vets here locally do not support barefoot, and I personally know of 3 horses that were being shod with everything possible, and became so lame it was suggested to put them down.
After proper barefoot trimming, they are now becoming sound.
I haven't seen a horse yet, even after being shod for many years, that hasn't been able to be taken barefoot, or hasn't improved very quickly even if they were very sore at first.
I would be very curious to see pictures of your donkeys feet, from all sides, and from the solar (bottom view). Their are a lot of pics on our barefoot sites of all kinds of horses feet. It is really hard to say without seeing them, but if your donkey will go back and forth on her feet, lifting them like they hurt, I would be curious to see what the bars look like.
If you are interested, you could email me some pic's, or post them on one of the barefoot sites. Would be very interesting to see them.
Melissa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 6, 2002 - 7:47 am:
I do agree that a horse should be allowed as much exercise as the foot can support as this does increase circulation and stimulate growth. However, I disagree Melissa that horses very foot sore should be forced to walk. This must be taken on a case by case basis and some indications that a horse needs rested are:
1) the soreness came on with the current amount of work
2)heat in the foot and a digital pulse
These horses should be stall rested while the inflammation subsides and the sole can thicken up some to tolerate the amount of work required to just get around. I have seen those that were forced to continue to be moved or in a couple of cases just turned back out that ended up foundering and rotated.
DrO
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Member:
Redwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 6, 2002 - 2:31 pm:
When I first got my riding donkey, she was on 90 acres of high desert. Several months later I sent her to training where the soil is rocky. When in training, and being trail ridden frequently, she had the episode where she was lifting her feet in front. She doesn't do that at home because we don't ride that much. I always look for a farrier that is experienced with donkey trimming because it is so different from horses. This last time, I used a different farrier who trimmed too short and took off too much sole. Luckily, my old farrier has returned to the area. The donkey was shod ONCE in her lifetime--mainly for a parade and she was shod in plastic shoes. Why do you refuse to believe that this particular donkey wears her feet down too quickly when riden a lot and needs hoof protection? Donkeys normally have very tough hooves and rarely need to be shod, but there are exceptions.
You appear to imply that one shouldn't listen to a vet that recommends shoeing an equine. The vets here are very open minded about alternate treatments (this is coastal California!).
Nancy
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 7, 2002 - 12:23 pm:
I agree DrO, each case needs to be handled individually. Encouraging movement is good, but too much on a bad case would not be good.
I think limited turnout might be preferable by itself, or with a calm mate, and possible limiting drugs like bute, so that the horse can 'feel' it's ouch, and not overdo it. Then they can move at will, and limp until with more healing they can put more pressure on it.
I find it interesting (and we wonder how it crosses over to horses from humans...)that when we brake a bone, and use it carefully as opposed to not at all, that it actually heals better.
Circulation can't be beat for healing, but yes, it must be within reason.
Nancy, I don't actually refuse to believe anything, unless it has been proven otherwise. What I am finding out in my barefoot saga, is that if their conitnues to be a nagging situation, something is usually just not quite right.
If you dissect a donkey, their foot structure is same as a horse, it is only that the angle of the front is more like the back as opposed to a horse.
Trimming would be similar, but fronts are more spade-like and have a steeper angle than a horses.
A sound foot pretty much has to have a gound parallel coffin bone.
Take the guess work out, get some good exrays, and you will know if this donkey's fronts are ground parallel.
I'm not saying you have to do this. I am just saying that it is very awesome to dig in and learn more. I have been doing extensive research which is my choice.
I think it's wonderful that you barefoot all of them to begin with!
I would rather get an exray, confirm what the inside of my donkeys feet look like, then say just put a shoe on because a vet 'thinks' that is the way to go. I'm not saying don't listen to them, I'm saying question what you are told, and I don't mean in a disrespectful way either.
If you honestly question what a vet/farrier suggests (we do this with dr's, correct? We do not just do a treatment because they 'say' to do it, we research first)
then you learn, and ultimately can make the best decision for your horse.
I think it is great that you are going the boot route also, instead of shoes.
I have put out the boot question also, and will get back to you on the feedback.
Melissa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 8, 2002 - 7:31 am:
Though the lesson with the broken bone is interesting you cannot forget if it moves too much it does not heal at all.
DrO
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