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  Discussion on Asymetrical wither?
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Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 1999 - 7:11 am:

Anyone ever had a horse with an asymetrical wither? Or rather the area below the wither towards the shoulder?
Are some horses just made this way, or could it be muscular development or inflamation?
If it's muscular, anyone know of exercises I could use?
And what about saddle fitting??

Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 1999 - 8:38 am:

I don't know what your horse looks like :-)

But for your information my vet was telling me that my horse that broke his hip will have an asymetrical bum. Just like a few horse that have broken their withers.

He then proceeded to describe a horse with its withers slightly offset and at an angle. Because there is so much muscle mass there the bones don't move far, and set in place held by the muscle.

Not knowing the shape you are trying to describe, this is an alternative that you may have to think about. As with my horse once healed it should not affect the horse much at all, But a modified saddle would be a good idea.

Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 1999 - 3:20 pm:

It is possible that there is a fracture of luxation causing the difference but more commonly in this area is a condition known as Shoulder Sweeny.

This is an atrophy of the sub and/or super scapularis muscles that lie on the scapula. This is the wide flat shoulder bone with a bony ridge that runs down the middle. When these muscles atrophy the ridge is easily seen and felt particularly if both muscles are affected. The cause is damage to the nerve that innervates them. This nerve runs superficially just above and lateral to the point of the shoulder, it is an easy place for a horse to bump.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 1999 - 3:38 am:

Ummm, no. Sorry, tried to be brief, but ended up being misleading! The sore side is the convex, not concave side. Don't think it's a fracture, because I'd expect more pain, heat and swelling, and she doesn't react if you prod the site.
The history, as briefly as I can: it was pointed out to me that my saddle was rocking and I was advised to use a riser pad. Used it 4 or 5 times when I noticed a slight swelling below the wither on one side only. She was sore - in fact reared each time I asked her to trot. The riser pad, which is about 1 1/2 inches thick at the back, tapers to about 1/2 inch under the pommel, and the edge ends about where the swelling appeared.
Last 3 weeks she has been rested for a week and lunged without a saddle. Last week I tried the saddle again again. She lunged beautifully, but the following day there was swelling again.
The physio has treated her weekly, and yesterday said the muscle below the wither was torn, and detached from the bone. Swelling forms a triangle below the wither, and on the only diagram of muscles I could find, it is marked "thoracic part of trapezius". Physio said there was a second tear, lower down, about where the latissimus dorsi meets the long head of the triceps?
When I posted before I was wondering if asymetical muscle development was causing the saddle to pinch on one side of the wither, hence the swelling on one side only?
What bothers me about the physio is that each time she has had a different conclusion. First time she said other side of the body was more sore, with pain concentrated in the hindquarter, second appointment she said my horse had torn muscles in her chest between her front legs, and now she says the other muscular discomfort all originates from the trapezius. Does that make sense?
I've got the vet coming out tomorrow to check out some swollen glands, so I'll ask him to take a look as well.
If the physio is right, how long should I expect it to take to heal (weeks or months, I mean), and is there anything I can do to speed up the healing? I've been giving her bute, and the physio told me to get some Arnica and something called Rhus Tox (homeopathic remedy). Can I give these at the same time as the Bute?
Karen

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 1999 - 4:04 am:

Wow, um err maybe

OK it is definately not an old injury like I had to assume. My horse hates saddlepads as she has thin skin and they seem restrict circulation causing pins and needles effect. Maybe you should look at getting the saddle modified to fit the horse.

I changed vets when he kept making alternate solutions to a simple problem, your Physio person worries me.

As for muscle damage she would have to be run hard or fall to tear that many muscles. My guess is the swelling has something to do with, the pressure point of the saddle pad.

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 1999 - 4:48 am:

Hi Darren
The saddle I lunged in ONCE last week is a new (used) one, which the saddlefitter assured me was a very good fit, and not the saddle which was rocking.
And add to the picture that the horse is otherwise SOUND, in fact has flashy movement, particularly in front. The only irregularity I've noticed was leading her along the road - every now and then she was slipping the toe of the opposite hind. And I've picked up a rope of muscle in the rump above the hip bone on that side. But she's tracking up (over) equally on both sides.
What I don't understand is, if it's the result of a pressure point, why only on one side and not both?
The physio's view is old injury, probably a fall, perhaps even as a foal. :-)
Karen

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 1999 - 9:34 am:

It is so hard to give a horses life story :-)

OK yes old injury's are harder to work with, you can only guess what happened.

It can be only on one side depending on circulation of blood, but to check that I would have to find my book on circulation and nerve distribution, then pin point the saddle pads pressure point :-|

When using the new saddle did you use the pad (probably not), if not used refer to Dr O. and the nerve that controls the muscles. Other than that I can only guess it is going to be hard to prove one way or another. It could even be from compensation of another old injury. FLASHY Movement may be a learned response to something in the past. :-(

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 1999 - 8:38 pm:

Just some thoughts......
Add to the above that the saddle might not be equally stuffed on both sides or that you might be just slightly off balance in the saddle. This is not to put down your riding, many of us tend to favor one side. I have an old hip injury which leads me to favor my left side if I'm not careful.
As to the physio person I would be somewhat suspicous of continous changes in diagnosis. I would think that all that tearing of muscle would be evident in movement with or without the rider.
Not being a vet, could the problem be because you've used a riser pad that works well on the concave side but puts too much pressure on the convex side? Is it possible to test this theory by cutting the pad so it doesn't push on the swollen side?

Teresa

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 1999 - 3:44 am:

Hi Darren and Teresa
Nahh... I've tossed the saddle pad and resolved that nothing but a PERFECTLY fitting saddle without gadgets will do from here on!
I used a thin foam numnah with the new saddle and it was only 30 mins of lunging. But Teresa might have a point - I've noticed that the stuffing is firmer on the one side under the cantel than on the other. As for balance in the saddle, well, I'm not sure. My left side is much weaker than my right, I tend to use much more right leg, but I THINK my pelvis is pretty balanced as I can normally feel both seat bones. And the sore spot is on my horse's left side.
When I say flashy movement, I mean she's exceptionally loose in her shoulders (both) and really uses her whole body elastically when she moves. I think that's something some horses are born with, not learned.
I'm trying to think creatively - I've been riding her bareback a bit and she doesn't mind my weight, it's just that spot at the wither. BUT she's a baby with a high wither and no topline, my pain threshhold isn't that high and I'm not thinking of entering a convent anytime soon! *g* So... if I got hold of a thick piece of sponge rubber, maybe 2 inches, think I could use a lunging roller to hold it on, and put my stirrup leathers through the lunging rings?? Think it would be safe?? For a posting trot? Guess it depends where the roller sits, if it clears the sore spot and whether I'm gonna land on it and cause myself permanent damage... *g*
Anyone else with wacky ideas??

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 1999 - 4:47 am:

Well, my vet has no idea what is causing the swelling. His advice is bute, lunging without a saddle, time and patience.
He says you'd have to be very good to tell by feeling whether the muscle is torn and detached (without ruling out the possibility), but says it feels like scar tissue to him.
Dr O, are there any diagnostic tools which show up muscles properly (scans etc)? I know an xray wouldn't be much good, unless there is a fracture. Would you recommend an xray to rule out that possibility?
What about the value of other kinds of machines? Faradic (is that right?) for measuring muscle contraction (also therapeutic I believe) or ultrasound?
What would be a reasonable period of time for a torn muscle to take to heal?
Thanks
Karen

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 1999 - 5:55 am:

Hello Karen,
Without lameness I would not worry about a fracture or acute tearing of the muscle. Bot would cause a noticable lamenerss.

I would think a good ultrasound would be helpful: You see the areas that are swollen so stick the ultrasound on the swollen side then the good side and you should be able to determime which tissues are swollen: skin, sub q, muscle, or tissue deep to the bone. The ultrasound will not see through the bone.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 1999 - 4:59 am:

Well, in spite of my initial scepticism, it looks like the physio was right about my horse! I've been massaging the area around one side of the wither every night with arnica oil, and the swelling is now all but gone.
She does still have a "rope" of tightly knotted muscle in the one side of her hindquarters though, stretching from just above the hip bone and back towards her tail about 6 inches. She turns her toe out on that hind, seems to rest it more often than the other side, and drags it slightly at the walk - not every stride but about every second. She's not tracking short at the trot, and I can't see any difference in the flight path of the two hind legs, although a friend with a more experienced eye told me the moment of suspension was fractionally shorter on that side.
When I got this horse (2months ago) the OPPOSITE hind hoof had been badly trimmed and was unlevel (hoof wall shorter on the inside). This has now been corrected. Could the muscle rope and out-turning toe be related to the bad trim (compensation)? Or is another explanation more likely?
Is there anything I could be doing to help the muscle heal? I'm massaging it every night, but it's a deep muscle and I'm not sure I'm being very effective.
Thanks
Karen

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 1999 - 7:36 am:

Without lameness it still seems unlikely that you have a acute disease that would result in noticable swelling of the muscles you described in previous posts: the scapularis muscles. More likely the swelling is under the skin and has begun to resolve. No doubt the massage is helping if you have subq edema.

Without examining the horse it is impossible to say much about the hind limb. A bad trim like you describe could make the hoof turn out.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 1999 - 9:12 am:

Thanks Dr O.
Karen
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