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Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:42 am:

I purchased a 12 yr old paint mare last July. In about October, she developed a skin irratation. It looks like the skin is peeling underneath the hair but the hair does not come out. It looks terrible. She has had 2 cortizone shots and is currently on medication (vetilog?) not sure of name of medication. My vet is unsure of what it is and I am tired of dealing with it. During the cooler months (We live in Texas, 50 miles south of Houston)it seems to go away. But with the onset of the warmer temperatures, it comes back. I have bathed her in different "medicated" shampoos including T-Gel for humans. She is getting where she really does not like to be brushed or bathed where the irratation is. It is on her neck, shoulders and chest area only. She is on Purina Omelean 100. Thanks in advance for your help. Theresa

Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 7:35 am:

Are these areas white?
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 1:45 pm:

Hi Dr O,
Thank you for replying. I have taken some photos this morning that I will be able to download tonight so that you can see what it looks like. It is spreading. She is kept in a stall and it is cleaned each evening. I use pine shavings.
The timeline reads as this:
Purchased her in July 2001
07/10/01 Tube wormed and vet check
Put on Strongid C 2X program
Stabled at Wildwind Barn-No skin problems
Moved to Segler's Barn in August 2001
I show Western Pleasure and used a Horse Grooming Block on her to remove excess hair. She developed the irritation shortly (the next day)after using that product. I discontinued using it.

09/11/01 Vet gave her immunizations due (Flu/Rhino Annual IM)
He diagnosed her with Bacterial Dermatitis
He gave her: 12m Vetalog IM
Tucoprim Powder 200 gm and Nolvasan Scrub with instructions to bath every other day. and scrub tail.
It did not get any better:
09/20/01 tried Gentocin Top Spray 240 ml and Probios Equine Gel 30m
Still no improvement:
He did a culture and sensitivity/LA
Here is what it said: Skin Swab Pseudomonas spp, Staphylococcus sp, Bacillus spp
I was told that the Pseudomonas spp is sensitive to these antibotics.
Amikacin, Amoxicillin/Clavulante, Ampocillin, Enrofloxacin, Gentamycin, Imipenem, Orbifloxacin, Tetracyclkine, Ticarcillin, Ticarcillin/clavulanic acid, Ditrim.
She was given the West Nile Virus/2
Diagnoses: Diffus dermatitis/seborrhea over shoulders, chest, and neck. Dx Bacterial dermatitis poss 2ndry allergic dermatitis
11/07/01 He prescibed Gentocin Inj 100 mg/ml250ml-Give 20cc once daily in the muscle.
(This was not fun and her neck puffed up on both sides)I gave her all but about 2 days worth of this and then he said to discontinue it.

Continuing the Strongid C 2X throughout the process.
The weather here in Texas became cooler and it seemed to go away for the winter.

04/22/02 Took her in for Annual/IM
Strangles-Pinnacle
Tubeworming
Equine Rabies IM
Flu/Rhino Annual IM
VEWT Annual IM
Coggins Test/EIA/Vacc
The temperatures in Houston, Texas rose to the mid 80's and here comes the skin irratation again.

I put her out in the pasture (by herself) for about 4 hours and when I came to get her she was all broken out.

04/30/02 HyDrOxyzine 50 mg/100 -Give tablets twice daily. Her back legs swelled up, I discontinue the medicine and called the vet. He said to try it again- we did and she was okay-but it did not clear up the skin.
I bathed her with T-Gel, Iodine shampoos and any bacterial shampoo I could find. I would leave it on for 5-10 minutes and wash off. Next day may be a little better in the morning but by the end of the day, we were back in the same place.
05/02/02 Vet ordered 1)12mg Vetalog in the muscle.
This worked great and she cleared up for about 4 days.
05/09/02 She is back where she was- he order a 2nd injection: 12 mg Vetalog give in muscle and this time he sent Vetalog 1.5mg tablets- give in feed every other day. The day I would give her the pills she would be better. The day I did not give her pills she was worse. So I gave her 3 pills per day-she got worse. I called the vet again, he said to give her 5 pills per day. I have been doing that for the past 2 days with no improvement.
She is fed Omelean 100, ShowGlo, and Strongid C 2X Daily. Straight Omelean in the morning with the additives at night. I use fly spray (Peranah?-yellow bottle black letters) dilligently for the flys and mesquitos. I just recently switched the fly spray to Endure-but the irritation is the same. She is blanketed in the winter to keep her coat sleek and has a light on her 16 hrs per day. I will try to email the photos tonight. I am at my wit's end on this mess-please make suggestions if you can. Thanks so much, Theresa

Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 6:27 am:

Are these white areas?
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 10:28 am:

No, they are not white at all, it looks like the black skin under the hair is peeling off. I tried to download photos-but I don't know how to do that. It is slowly spreading. Help!! :-)

Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 10:38 am:

If there you have an email address, I can send you a photo. Thanks, Theresa

Posted on Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 12:13 pm:

I would like to see the pictures Theresa and you can learn to upload. Under the HELP topic on the navigation frame on the left you will see a subtopic called "Formatting". Just follow the instructions carefully and watch the size of the files.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 9:20 am:

I am going to try this-hope it works. :-)

Pepper's skin01

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 9:23 am:

Here we go again!

Pepper's skin 02

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 9:25 am:

One more time:

Pepper's skin03

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 9:33 am:

Dr. O,
Last Saturday, I took Pepper in and the vet gave her another of the vetalog injection and changed the dosage to 7 tablets every other day. I bathed her with Lysol and rinsed her really well. Sunday she was cleared up. On Monday, I gave her the 7 tablets as instructed-she was clear. By Monday evening she was broken out worse than ever. I bathed her last night in a lanolin shampoo and sprayed her with a tea tree oil product. I have not been out this morning to the barn (A barn mate feeds at 8:00 am) I have taken her off the Omelean 100 and she is now on 1/2 crimped oats and Stragety. Although she is much calmer-she still has the skin problem. :-( Any suggestions are welcomed. P. S. Thanks for teaching me how to upload the photos for you.

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:14 pm:

Dr O,
I went to the barn, she is even worse than she was. I got more photos if you need to see them. I tried for more up close ones. It looks as if the black skin underneath is shedding. When I bathe her, it will wipe off if I do each individual piece, but then it is back the next day and spreading. I sure hope you have heard of this. Thank so much!! Theresa

Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 6:47 am:

Lysol? You are bathing your horse in Lysol? The ingredients in this could be enough alone to be causing the flaking and hyperkeratosis. These areas look more like light burns than infection. The burns could be heat, excessive sunlight, or most likely in your case: chemical. I do not see anything that really looks like bacterial infection, these would be lesions like crusts, pustules, or ulcers. Pseudomonas is frequently a opportunistic organism that comes in when the normal skin flora is disturbed.

I think a lot of your problem may be all the antibacterial shampoos (and worse) and treatments that you continue to use on this horse. All of these, including those we approve of, are excessively drying and mildly irritating and can result in flaking and peeling with chronic use and might even cause thickening up of the skin.

Shampooing, even with mild products, is drying to the skin and when done in excess is irritating. Your horse is not dirty so shampooing is not indicated. Because I can only get so much information from a picture you need to discuss with your vet discontinuing the antibacterial treatments and the shampoos and just leave these areas alone to recover on their own and that includes the natural products, some of these are very irritating. If you absolutely have to put something on these areas begin with very light oil based skin moisturizers that can be worked into the skin and hair. Excessive use will result in dirt accumulation. As soon as the irritation is gone begin brushing these areas daily with a very soft brush to stimulate oil production and circulation.

I cannot say there is not some other primary problem but I think what you are doing could be exacerbating the flaking and peeling and I do not see anything else that needs treating and nothing that cannot heal on its own. It just requires time. If you and the vet decide I am way out in left field I recommend you try a skin biopsy looking for other explanantions for your problem.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 9:34 am:

Dr. O,
I bathed her only once in Lysol. I was told by a trainer that would cure it, but it didn't. I had a second vet look at her yesterday. He said his horse has the same thing and it is merely "Summer Itch" He said to bathe her in a mild shampoo and put this really oily product that he gave me on her. I did that last night. Then continue every 3rd day with the same procedure. We are on the Gulf Coast where it is humid with alot of mosquitoes. I keep her in her stall 24/7 with a regular exercise program in a covered arena, so I know it is not sunburn. Normally, I bathe her maybe every 4 days if needed. I do rinse her off if she works up a good sweat. I was told by the new vet that the side effects of the injections and tablets can cause founder.Is this true? (My original vet did not tell me this)The original vet wants me to send her off to Texas A&M to the dermotologist as a test case. I am not willing to do that just yet. Under normal conditions (prior to the peeling) I use Healthy Choice Coat conditioner and spray it on her each evening and work it in with a brush. It makes her coat shiny and soft. I will let you know how this new product works. Thanks for your help-I really enjoy your website. Theresa

Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:04 am:

I am curious, but doesn't bathing every 4 days seem excessive. I have 15 horses and I hardly ever bathe them. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it seems that maybe every 4 days is a bit too much?

Jim

Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:42 am:

I'm with Jim. I use a mild horse shampoo once a year on my horse. He gets a thorough hosing/sponging after exercise to remove all sweat, and a vigorous daily grooming. That way, we protect his normal skin flora and coat oils, and he's free of irritants. I use very little fly spray, the minimum to keep him from being tormented.

Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 7:48 pm:

I have to go with Jim and Melissa. Some horses can tolerate that much bathing, but many cannot. The skin of horses is not as tough as some may think. The other thing you might try is easing off everything and working with your brushes to try to stimulate the natural oils in the skin. Watch out for coat conditioners and shiners. Especially over use. Everyday is way too much. I use them mainly to help me with mane and tail tangles occasionally.

Many years ago, before these products existed, I brought a horse I'd been working back to the barn covered with sweat. As I reached for the hose ( in those days, you hosed them right off and walked them dry - since then I've seen that turn to "don't hose except for the legs" and now hosing is coming back again ), anyway, as I reached for the hose, a crooked bent-over grizzled older than dirt guy ( there was one that came with every barn in those days ),hollered "what the h*## are you doing? Don't waste all that good sweat!" He grabbed a burlap feed sack and vigorously began rubbing until he had rubbed all the sweat throughout the horse's coat - then he just kept rubbing and rubbing. The horse was in a state of ecstatic bliss. When he was done, the horse looked great and "old Bill" just grabbed his pint from his back pocket and shuffled off.

Nowadays, burlap feed sacks are hard to come by, and it's been years since I've been able to sweat up a horse. Those grizzled old toothless guys have become extinct. But in his awkward gruff old way, "Bill" wanted me to know that Mother Nature designed horses with built in maintenance systems and she did a pretty decent job.

Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 9:32 am:

I think you all may be onto something. I appreciate your input. I have found an old country vet that has given me a sauve to put on the areas that are really irritated. So far it is really working well. Once I get this all cleared up, I promise not to wash her anymore.:-)

Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 5:25 pm:

Elizabeth-

I know that guy!

In my barn it was Richard.

Posted on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 8:02 pm:

How timely - an article in this week's TheHorse:
"Beauty IS Skin Deep" see https://www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid=3460

Posted on Sunday, Jun 2, 2002 - 10:24 am:

Dr O,
Could you confirm the information I received about the cortozone injections and vetalog tablets could cause founder?
Since the new "country" vet gave me this sauve she is much better.

(And she has not had a bath in a week) Having a horse is alot like having kids!! They don't come with instruction manuels but yet you are suppose to know what their needs are!! LOL! Thanks for all the advise- I have alot to learn! Theresa

Posted on Monday, Jun 3, 2002 - 6:07 am:

Hello THeresa,
This subject, and many more concerning steroid use, are covered in Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals: Anti-inflammatories, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment: Overview of the Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 1:01 pm:

Dr. O
I have good news and bad news. The new vet prescribed Panalog-a creamy lotion to put on Pepper's coat to get rid of the "Summer Itch" It has worked miracles and her coat is good as new with only a few small patchy areas that I treat when needed. The bad news is she is now lame in both front legs. (More severe on the front left)My farrier came out on Thursday (5/30) and shod her. She had been clipping some when I lunge her and I mentioned it to him. He clipped her hoofs shorter than normal. She limped off, but we thought she may be a little tender from the shortness. I let her go for about 2 days and she was still stiff on her front end. On the 3rd day, I had her out in the pasture. When I came to bring her in-she could barely walk. I called the vet, he came out and gave her bute and banamine (spelling ?) for the pain. We did this for approx 6 days. He fears that the cortozone and vetalog medication (prescribed by the previous vet) could have caused her to founder. For now it would be a slight case and we are hoping it does not get any worse. At first we had hoped that she was just quicked (and deep down I am hoping that is still the case.) After a week, the farrier made it back out and put pads on her feet. Slight improvement that day, then back to the stiffness the next day. There has not been any swelling at all, however we can definately feel the pounding pulse in the fetlock on the right foot. Is this a true symptom of founder? The vet and farrier at different times have put the hoof tester on her with no response from her. Currently he is giving her banamine injected into the bloodstream. Could this be some type of abcess, founder, or quick? What do you suggest I do at this point? Would x-rays tell us anything?

Posted on Saturday, Jun 8, 2002 - 8:20 pm:

Whether or not glucocorticoids cause founder or even might exacerbate it is still an unknown and if it does this is very rare.

We do know that the horse was sound until trimmed. We do know that excessive exercise on thin soles can cause severe bruising or even founder. This would be called road founder. The pulse could be caused by anything that might cause inflammation in the foot. From here I cannot be sure what is happening with your mare but recommend if founder remains on the list of possiblilites you assume that is what is happening and treat that way. For more on diagnosing and treating founder see, Equine Diseases: Lameness: Foot and Sole Problems: Founder & Laminitis.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 13, 2002 - 11:01 am:

Dr. O
We x-rayed her on Saturday- a really extreme case of the farrier trimming her to short. Now we have to wait till the hoof grows out before we can really do anything more than just try and make her comfortable. Her shoes were not prepared properly by the farrier before they were put on. Needless to say, I have found a much better farrier.

Posted on Friday, Jun 14, 2002 - 1:31 am:

Theresa: If you've really found a good farrier, you must run a search and read the thread on Tipping the Farrier. There's some vital information there.

Posted on Friday, Jun 14, 2002 - 6:20 am:

That is great Theresa,
I don't know how I forgot to put in my last post the following reference: Equine Diseases: Lameness: Foot and Sole Problems: Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming. Don't forget too much work on too thin a sole can still cause you problems with founder so until those soles grow out rest on soft ground with limited exercise is best.

I do not consider a one time mistake like this is really grounds for dismissal (my wife would have divorced me by now if it was). Once a farrier has done this to a horse he usually takes extra care that it does not happen again. So the whole picture needs to be considered and if otherwise his work has been good I would give him another chance.
DrO
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