This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Scratches, Grease Heel, Dew Poisoning, & Mud Fever »
  Discussion on Scratches of not?
Author Message
Member:
Cwilson

Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 8:51 pm:

Had a little scare today. The barn called and said Romeo's(17 yo QH) right rear leg was swollen and it looked like there was a puncture wound above the heel. Tried to get a vet to come but none were available(we really don't have any in the area) When we got to the barn there was no puncture wound but his leg was double in size all the way up to his hip area.We did speak to a vet on the phone and it was determined that he has Scratches. There is a mare in the stall next to him and we found out they have been having some heavy duty kicking rounds with the walls. That may also be contributing to his swelling. He was fine yesterday and this morning- boom.
He is on Bactrim and Bute and we are cold hosing him about three times a day. The swelling went down some when he was ridden bareback today. We also moved him to another stall away from the mare so the kicking will stop. It was suggested by someone at the barn to make a mixture of 50-50 clorox and water and spray this on the affected area and leave it on. I read the article on Scratches and didn't see this as a treatment. My question, will this hurt him or help him? Right now he only has one area right above his right hoof which is affected.
Thanks
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 9:19 pm:

Chris,

I'm a little confused by your post. Does your horse have symptoms of 'scratching' or is his leg swollen due to the kicking bout? If the latter, it sounds like the cold hosing and easy excercise (the bareback riding) is doing the trick. Moving him to another stall should remove the 'cause.' I would just suggest NOT using a 'clorox/water' solution and give the swelling time to go away naturally by continuing the hosing and light work. As long as it's not something else, let the horse heal with a small 'assist' of hosing and light work. Trust your eyes...if the swelling is going down...you've done what's necessary and you need to let time work for you.
Member:
Cwilson

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003 - 4:03 pm:

Rick,
Thought I responded to your post Sat night and realized I must have messed up and not posted correctly.
Which came first the kicking or the Scratches?
Not sure. We think he was kicking the stall wall and has a deep bone bruise on knee(forgive my lack of correct word), which caused swelling. Then he was turned out and never had his muddy legs washed off and got the Scrathes since he was already injured. His immune system was out of sync. He has severe cellulitis in the right leg, also has Scratches on his left leg but no cellulitis.
We are moving him to another facility at the end of October where there will be better training for my daughter and better management of the horse. I'm a little upset that no one told us about the kicking. He never kicked when were there and we go to the barn pretty much everyday.
This Scratches is a new one for us and I was wondering how long it last and if there is anything to make the condition improve faster.
Thanks
Chris
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003 - 5:02 pm:

I have always found that washing with soap and water and DRYING . . . very thoroughly, and then applying Desitin for a few days, takes care of Scratches . . . The key thing is to get the pastern/heel clean and dry first.

Since being here in CO, I have seen a couple of cases of Scratches that have resulted in swollen legs . . . don't remember seeing swelling in past incidences . . .

Holly
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003 - 7:56 pm:

Chris: Run a search on this site for "scratches", you'll find loads of information.
Member:
Nofences

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 9:39 am:

Hi All,

There is a very interesting article in the recent issue of 'Hoofcare & Lameness' (issue 77) by Dr. Gregory L. Ferraro called 'Pastern Dermatitis in Shires and Clydesdales'. While this article describes scratches in it's most severe form and it's prevelance in the draft breeds, anyone with a horse that has chronic scratches will be encouraged that research is being done at UC Davis.

According to the article, the late Dr. Tony Stannard of the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine did research in the late '80's that showed the condition was caused by degenerative changes in the small microscopic blood vessels of the affected skin. His death cut short this research, but it has recently been taken up by a team led by Dr. Verena Affolter. To quote from the article: "These investigators have confirmed what Dr. Stannard suspected: that the degeneration of the vasculature has an immune-mediated component, which is central to the production of the disease. While the work is neither complete nor conclusive as to the cause and effect of the disease, the research so far indicates that much of the damage caused to the skin and subcutaneous tissues of the lower leg and pastern may be a result of the horse's own immune response to an inciting irritant. In other words, the initial agent that attacks the skin is not important." "..The animal's own immune system then becomes the actual perpetuating cause of the problem. This "hyper" reaction by the body persists long after the original irritant (mite, bacteria, etc.) is gone which partially explains why the list of failed treatments is so long. Whatever particular treatment one employs may eliminate the particular pathogen present, but once that one is eliminated, another which is not susceptible to the medication takes over because the horse's skin is too busy fighting with itself to defend against new invaders."

This certainly seems to explain my own battle with my horse's scratches, and why none of the many treatments I've trid has cleared up the condition. He's a solid paint with white stockings, not a draft breed, and after many months of trying various 'vet approved' and homemade concoctions he has only a few scabs, but 'mudseason' is coming.

What are your thoughts about the immune system connection Dr. O?

Barbara
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 6:33 am:

We address this in the article on scratches Barbara.
DrO
Member:
Nofences

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 10:52 am:

I'm sorry Dr O, I must be reading the wrong article. I've read everything under the subject 'Scratches, Grease Heel, Dew Poisoning, & Mud Fever' and can find nothing regarding a possible immune system dysfunction. There is one sentence in your article: "It is believed that some cases of grease heel may not be a primary infection but an allergic type reaction to the bacterial metabolites." but that's all I found. Should I be looking under another subject?

Thank you,
Barbara
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 8:41 am:

Allergic reactions are a immune system dysfunction. An allergy is a hyperreactivity to what is normally a nonnoxious stimulus.
DrO
Member:
Ruppert

Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 2:01 pm:

Dr. O, I now own two beautiful shires, both 15 yo geldings, 1/2 brothers. Unfortunately, both are affected by scratches, or pastern dermatitis. I have read the UC Davis articles, thanks much, and have poured through the Advisor, and while I am satisfied that my daily routine is covering the external problems (I am applying 100% sulfur and water or mineral oil daily), I wonder if you might recommend something that would help these boys internally, as it appears to be painful. I have tried bute, but they really do not like to take it, and it seems that all of the recommendations associated with this dreadful condition are for external not internal problems that happen as a result. Any advice on how to help their pain?
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 3:21 pm:

Hi Ruth,

If it is what I think it is I know it as mud fever, just above the hoof above the bulb of the heel? If so you could clean it and smear it with baby cream the one for nappy rash and cover it with petroleum jelly (Vaseline) before you turn them out.

I had a Shire x TB called Tony who some times had that, although his main problem was sweet itch (spelling?)
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 9:26 pm:

There are good articles about care for scratches available if you do a search of this site, and also several discussions in the archives describing things members have tried and found successful. Treating this externally cannot be replaced with any internal measures that I know of, though you certainly want to keep your horse as healthy as possible so the immune system functions well. Early and aggressive external treatment will prevent infection (which may require antibiotics, but they will not cure the problem without the external care being practiced as well) and save lots of time in the long run. As Ruth said, the diaper rash creams can be helpful after washing (removal of scabs is necessary) and treating (I like the triple antibiotic ointment after washing with betadine scrub and drying). Various products can be helpful if the problem is treated immediately. It also helps to keep the horse in off the wet grass, and the Desitin diaper cream helps protect for about a day from moist conditions.
Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 6:19 am:

Hi All;
Just to add to Barbara's comments about the Hoofcare and lameness article. BTW, this is an excellent mag about the foot, but not for the faint of heart, the pictures can be distressing. The article is citing work done at UCDavis as Barbara pointed out. The article as well as a nice historical piece can be found at
www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/HR21-2.html
This area is sure to get more research as they feel it is similar to a human condition. One of the nice research perks with horses, many of their systems replicate ours so there is a lot of medicine that can flow back and forth giving better health to all of us. But don't assume it's all the same or you'll end up with a very sick horse or a person with an onion up their butt!
Member:
Nofences

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:01 am:

The UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Center for Equine Health 'Horse Report' for January 2006 has an excellent article titled "Equine Dermatology - Everything you Wanted to Know (and More) About Skin" which can be found at: www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CEH/HR24-1-bkm-sec.pdf I believe my horse's bouts with 'scratches' are autoimmune related. He always has an exaggerated response to bug bites, minor wounds, etc. I found that daily use of 'Bickmore's Gall Salve' finally resolved the chronic 'scratches' two years ago. This salve has been around for decades and was suggested to me by an 'old timer'. I monitor my horse's heels closely and apply the salve at the first sign of anything - and have been able to keep reoccurrences under control. The salve contains sulfur, borax, zinc oxide, and something else that escapes me at the moment, so my vet approves it, too, and it apparently doesn't burn and sting like some of the other topical medications did - no more kicking. I swear by the stuff!

Barbara
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 11:53 am:

Ruth, once the external problems are properly cared for the pain should disappear quickly. If you have not yet, you should review our recommendations in the article (click on Scratches, Grease Heel, Dew Poisoning, & Mud Fever off the navigation bar at the top of this page) then if you do not find the extra help you need for treating this start a new discussion (button at the bottom of the list of discussions on the article page on Scratches) outlining the history and treatment of your problem we can probably get you on the path to healing this up. If the scratches looks good to you is it possible the pain is coming from somewhere else?DrO
Member:
Ruppert

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 5:57 pm:

Thanks much to all for your responses, I truly appreciate them. Like Barbara, I did read through the Scratches, Grease Heel pages, but I found that this discssion, based on the entries about UC Davis, and Barabara's note that specifically called out the pastern dermatitis, was more helpful to me, as the other section appears to me more for treatment of light horses vs. shires/clydesdales' specific issues. I will be happy to move this if you believe it is in the wrong area, that is not a problem.

My shires have had scratches we assume most of their lives - I agreed to take them becuase they were in Florida, and the owner (they have been passed around several times) said they simply could not take care of them as needed, they were 1/2 brothers, never separated, and no one was interested in taking the two of them and their potential problems with their scratches/legs. When I spoke to their vet, he said for the sake of the animals, please take them out of here! So, they now reside in MA, so they have now experienced a nice cold winter, and I was able to try several topical remedies, most of those coming from the Advisor!

I have tried the combination of Nolvasan, DMSO, Nitrofurazide (sp) and as well, have tried a Sulfur/Pine Tar salve called Nu-Kote. I then talked to the American Shire group, as well as kept up with the UC Davis material, which now has me using a common garden 100% sulfur granules mixed with water or mineral oil. This mixture is applied every day to clean legs (lots of Betadine and such)as my shires also qualify for "be careful, the pictures are not pretty" - their beautiful legs (not limited to the heels) already have "grapes" or hardened areas. So as much as I treat them externally, as UC Davis states, all efforts are for maintenance only, they will never be cured. So while I think I am doing a good job of maintaining, I watch them, post-application, and other times, biting their legs and feet, stomping, walking to any tree or hard space to scratch, and I feel for them. As you suggested Dr. O, if the external problems are properly cared for the pain should disappear, but the external problem will never go away, therefore, either will their pain. The scratches heel over, the bleeding and scab will get small, eventually fall off, and guess what, there are more just waiting to appear. I will never rid them of these at this point in their lives, so I try to make them as comfortable as possible, and we ride/drive as much as we can, and they would never show even a small sign of weakness from the scratches.

Som sorry for the long-winded story, I was reaching out to you and the members because you have been a great help to us previously, and I hoped there was something that I might do for my boys that would further reduce their pain. Hopefully, as you said, if I can find the right mixture for the external, the pain will subside, I can only hope. I will be trying the Bickmore's Gall Salve, and will let you knwo if I have any breakthroughs. Either way, they are with me for life, so I will keep working it with the help from you and the members as long as possible, thanks again.
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:23 pm:

Hello, Ruth. I'm very sorry your Shires have those terrible leg sores. I've been battling the same problem with my Clyde mare for over a year. This has been a learn-as-you-go experience for me and part of my frustration has been the paucity of information available on 'Pastern Dermatitis in Draft Horses.' Until the research at UC Davis is complete and, hopefully, more is known on how to manage the disease, all I can offer is to share what we're doing to keep the sores under control.

My vet spoke with Dr. Ferraro at UCD, reviewed my mare's case with him (labs, path report from skin biopsies done on her legs, history, etc.) and came up with a 'management' protocol.

To start, the vet did a series of immune system booster shots. At the same time, we added a multi-vitamin supplement to her diet and I started washing her legs (2-3 times a week) with an apricot/sulfur shampoo (manufactured by HyDrOsurge, I believe) and painting the sores with a 50:50 mixture of mineral oil:sulfur. Please note that the shampoo and paint were both recommended by UCD.

I have no idea whether the treatment did the trick or some astronomical phenomenon created the right atmosphere, but the leg sores we'd been battling for over a year healed (and for a very brief time her legs were 'clean'). New ones keep popping out but the number of sores is reduced as is the time it takes to for them to heal.

Your concern about the pain caught my attention because I've noticed subtle changes (choppiness) in my mare's gaits that seem to precede a new outbreak. Once the sores appear, her gaits go back to normal. The vet is coming on Thursday for annual shots/Coggins and this is on my list of things to discuss.

It also takes a little longer to warm her up at the beginning of a ride (she's my saddle horse) but, again, I'm not certain if the stiffness in her legs is related to the disease, her age (she's 15), the arthritis (slight) in her LH, all the above, some of the above or none of the above.

I had to stop the apricot/sulfur shampoos last October because her hooves dried out (cracks/chips/lost shoes) but will be starting up again once the weather warms up.

Bless you for taking these Shires. It's nice to know they're with someone who's going to do everything they can to help them.

Are you anywhere near the North Shore? I live just north of you in NH.

D.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 7:14 am:

Don't worry about the long story Ruth it better explains the problem, you believe your horse has chronic progressive lymphedema rather than scratches. To get back to your original question:

There are several alternatives to bute for pain. Most effective would still be the NSAID's however. You can try banamine granules though less expensive would be generic flunixin injectable sprayed on the food. You can find information on this and other NSAID's at Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx).

With humans, Harpagophytum procumbens (Devil's Claw) extracts, containing at least 50 mg harpagoside per dose, has shown significant relief from chronic pain in a few studies. No side effects were noted in these studies and there is still a strong feeling that we do not know enough about the effects of this therapy to recommend it in humans. There are no safety or efficacy studies in horses but there are products available for them that some on this site have used without problems.

Also I wonder about the effects of either systemic or topical corticosteroids on this disease.

As there are several different disease processes going on it is important to try and precisely id the cause of the pain (the lymphedema, lymphangitis, open sores, infection, inflammation) as that will allow you to more precisely target your therapy.
DrO
Member:
Ruppert

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 8:42 am:

Thank you so much for this great advice D. and Dr. O, you both have passed along to me some great new solutions, and I am looking forward to trying them all! I too hope that maybe in a year's time, I will have it down, and all will be as well as can be expected. I am thrilled to at least have some new approaches to both the internal and external issues, thanks again, so much, Ruth
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 9:05 am:

Dr. O -- Would it make any sense to surgically remove the "grapes and (hardened area)" and start over, or would that not help in a case like this?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 7:15 am:

Vicki unfortunately this is a progressive disorder who's proposed pathogenesis and the appearance of the lesions suggest that surgery might not be successful: you will not be able to close the wounds and the incisions will heal poorly.

This is a disease I don't have any personal experience with so must nod to UCal on this, they seem to be the current experts. It has been awhile since I have researched this disease and plan to once I get back in my office however I am traveling today so it will be tomorrow at the earliest before I will be able to.
DrO
Member:
Deedles5

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 12:25 am:

My vet has been very interested in this disease, and he believes that a photosensitivity reaction causes scratches, and that pasture with legumes such as alfalfa and clover is implicated.

My gelding has it again this year (he clears up during the winter when he gets only grass hay)
but his pasture is contaminated with clover in the disturbed planting area. I see no way to remedy this, so I treat symptoms.

Why not try to monitor his broadleaf plant intake.
Any alfalfa or clover hay should be replaced as well as any grain with alfalfa in it. Many pelleted feeds have alfalfa in it, so I would read labels carefully.

It is very common here in Wyoming.
New Member:
karperk

Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 12:18 pm:

We have found that injecting the "grapes" directly with a steroid gets rid of them. Sometimes it takes 2 or three injections, sometimes only one.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 11, 2009 - 3:03 am:

Welcome Karla,
Can you tell us what exactly you are treating? It sounds like you may be discussing Lymphedmea which is described at Diseases of Horses » Cardiovascular, Blood, and Immune System » Chronic Progressive Lymphoedema (Lymphedema). But I am not sure.
DrO
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC