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  Discussion on Colic? or teeth problems?
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 12:31 am:

Hi, Dr. O My 22 yr. old mare started with diarrrhea Tues. very watery. Took her temp. it was normal-low 96 deg. No appetite, mildly depressed. Had vet out Tues nite as symptoms seemed to worsen some, she is not presenting with "normal" colic symptoms. No pawing, rolling, or acting real uncomfortable. Vet examined her and found a big ball of food in her cheek, she has never quidded before. He gave her a shot of banamine and she seemed a little more relaxed. Checked her this morning still not eating. When she takes a bite of grass she will go directly to the water tank and swish her mouth in it and the lump shows up in her cheek and I take it back out. Kept an eye on her and she seemed more depressed and still having diarrhea had vet back out he tubed her and that oil came squirting out in about 3hrs. it was shooting 10 ft. Vet looked at her teeth and said she has some good points in there, but don't think it is the problem. He is a cow vet the equine vet is out of town. I watched her today for a few hours and tend to lean towards a mouth problem. She laid down today and I figured she was going to roll but she put her head on the ground and rubbed her jaws back and forth on the ground then got up, no rolling. The diarrhea has subsided. Also her eye lids swelled up, almost shut, but have gotten better since yesterday. Tonite I watered down her hay and she picked at it but every time she took a little she would blow her nose, shake her head, swish in water and end up with it in her cheek. I have a call in to the equine dentist, but have a feeling it will be months before he comes as he is over 100 mi. away and very busy. Also she had no temp all thru this if anything she is running a little low and feels cool to the touch. Any ideas? Thanks

Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 12:38 am:

I forgot to add I have not seen her urinate, except for on Tues she streched out like she was going to, elevated tail and just a few dribbles came out. She may have when I wasn't waching her today. I locked her up tonite to see if she does. Would the lack of urination be caused by all the fluid loss from diarrhea? She does seem to be drinking normally.

Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 7:56 am:

Yes I suspect the reason for decrease urination is fluid loss from the diarrhea and no the diarrhea is not caused by problems with the teeth.

I believe you have a colitis, probably infectious in origin, even though you do not have a temperature. I find the peripheral swelling troublesome, did the horse have her head down all day?

I would consider having another exam and complete lab work up done to be sure that:
1) She is dealing successfully with the infection or problem.
2) Rule out other possible causes of the diarrhea, depression, and inappetance.
3) Be sure her organ function, particularly the kidneys but also the liver, and serum proteins are normal.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 9:46 pm:

Hi,Dr. O. I had the equine vet out today and he drew a blood panel and should know the results tomorrow. Yes she does stand with her head low. The vet did not find that she is dehydrated and everything was in normal range except an elevated heart rate, it has been jumping a bit the last 2 days Tues. it was 54, Weds it was 48, and today it was 63. She is really getting sick of seeing vets and I wondered if that might not raise it. today she didn't seem as depressed still has watery diarrhea but it did have some green color to it today. She picks a little bit then will run right to the water tank and swish her mouth. Does this all day. I showed the vet when I let her loose she went right to the water tank and swished her mouth and pawed at the tank. She spends most of the day doing this when she is active. He didn't see anything abnormal with the teeth other than she needs a good float but didn't want to stress her doing that just yet. She will eat grain and carrots but we don't want to give her much of that due to the diarrhea and she quids that also. Will let you know the results of tests tomorrow. Thanks.

Posted on Friday, Jul 26, 2002 - 8:00 am:

Just having the head down low can cause some horses to swell around the eyes and head. I will worry about her till her appetite returns and the heart rate comes down, please keep us informed.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jul 26, 2002 - 6:54 pm:

Hi, again my mare is feeling much better today, she ate a whole leaf of hay last nite and only had 1 bowel movement, and it is still very watery. According to the bedding she also urinated a normal amount since this all started. The vet called this morning and said her blood panel showed a very high wbc and thought with her symptoms it may be salomella. He said the count was to high in his opinion for potomac. I was not able to get the numbers as he was on his cell phone and very staticy. While turned out today she spent more time with the herd and didn't act so depressed. She also picked a little more at the grass, tho she is still spending alot of time at the darn water trough swishing her mouth, what would you assume the reason for this is? I took her temp this afternoon and it is finally up a little and normal 99. I didn't get her heart rate but will try tonite hopefully it is lower. The vet has her on diarrhea meds, probiotics, and electrolytes. I worry about my other 3 horses could they come down with this? So just wondering how all this sounds to you and wondering if you have any advice, also vet said rest of her blood work up was normal. Thanks

Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 8:15 am:

Dr. O this morning my mare had no bowel movements from overnite, approx.10 hrs. should I quit the diarrhea meds? She ate most her hay last nite but still not acting quite right. Would a shot of banamine help her now? Thanks Again

Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 10:21 am:

Not knowing what meds those are and not being able to examine her, I cannot advise on specific treatment. Many times following severe diarrhea, once the bowel settles down, it takes a while for stools to form again because the bowel is very empty. I think it is an excellent sign that whe continues to eat but still would like to see the HR return to normal before I feel a lot better. Banamine is indicated for any possible toxico-infectious, and that includes almost all infectious diarrheas, to help prevent the complications of endotoxemia including founder.
DrO
PS Do you live in an endemic area for PHF, if so I would not rule it out from the WBC count and see if the newer more reliable tests are available and have it run.

Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 12:19 am:

Hi, Dr.O. My mare seemed much better yesterday especially after her banamine shot. She still has diarrhea but it has some consistency to it now and don't happen as often as far as I can tell maybe 3 times a day, I am not positive of this as I let her out during the day, but can usually find her manure in the pasture. Overnite she doesn't go. She still hangs her head over the water trough and swishes alot. I have an automatic waterer and a 25 gallon tub in her stall and she will not drink out of them, I still think this is an indication of something, swallowing seems hard for her so she holds the water in her mouth and alot falls back out, then she will swish more into her mouth. I have not seen her drink like a normal horse since this started. Chewing and especially swallowing seem difficult for her. After a banamine shot things get better for awhile. Does this indicate anything to you? Her hr has been around 44 the last 2 days. She hadn't been quidding as much lately, but started back up today again, not as much as before tho. I do not live in edemic area for phf as far as I know, I never hear much of it and I am around the horse community alot. The diarrhea med she is on is like kaopectate the vet said. also since she isn't going as much her gas and stools have a very terrible smell to it, is that indicitive of anything? It has gotten very hot and humid here again and I can see it is taking a toll on her. I am at the end of my rope here and my vet recsources used up. I am going to try to get her blood report tomorrow and I will post it for you. Should I give her banamine shots daily or is that to much? She still does not appear dehydrated somehow. Also she hasn't been sweating in this hot weather, but she does stand in front of the fan alot that is in their lean-to. Please if you have any ideas I can look into I would appreciate it as I don't know if she can take much more of this. This site is wonderful and I have been recommending it to eveyone around here as our vet care is limited. Thanks again.

Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 8:44 am:

It all sounds like a bacterial colitis Diane but I have seen other problems that look just like this and most of them as serious or more serious than colitis. The past winter we had a mare in the hospital that went through this for about 2 weeks until we lost her and on necropsy found she had an infarction that had killed 2 feet of large bowel so from the time it started, without surgery, there was little to do to save her and since she continued to pass profuse watery stools surgery was a difficult call. An important difference between your horse and this case is that her heart rate never went down, just always higher.

I am not sure what the water behavior represents but you do see it with very sick horses, particularly those with bowel pain or dehydration. They play with the water but don't drink adequate amounts, be sure your horse continues to consume at least 6 (8 is better) gallons a day.

Yes the banamine can be used daily for 5 days as long as the horse remains hydrated and kidney function normal.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 10:03 pm:

Hi, Dr.o. I heard tonite that there is another horse that has the same symptoms and close to same blood results as mine and is down with founder. The vet said it tested neg for phf and believes we are both dealing with samonella. Her heart rate remains at 44 today. Her digital pulse is not bounding, been checking that a few times a day. Her stools are a VErY little more improved with some consistency to them more like cow pattys now.Today she had about 5 movements from 6am til 7pm. She is eating a little hay and some grass but prefers weeds. I had her out in the yard and she didn't even look at the lush grass and went right for a thistle and ate that???? Here are her blood results Hemoglobin 19.2(high) Ref. range 11-17 Hemacrit 51.6 (high) Ref. range 32-50 WBC 3.7 (low) Ref range 5.5-12.5 MCV 47 Ref Range 34-58 RBC 11 r.range 7-12 MCH 17.5 R. Range12-19 MCHC 37.2 R. Range 31-39 Platelet count 142 R Range 100-400 Platelet estimate Adequate DIFFERENTIAL ABSOLUTE Neutrophils 2886 78% REf. Range 2600-7500 Bands 0 Ref. Range 0-300 Lymphocytes 777(low) 21% Ref. Range 1500-7700 Monocytes 37 1% Ref. Range 0-1000 Eosinophils 0 Ref. Range 0-1000 Basophils 0 Ref. Range 0-290 Does this tell you anything? I gave her a shot of banamine tonite and she almost through her self on the ground shaking her head and blowing her nose and acting quite excited dragging me around. She has never done this before is this some kind of reaction? She seemed fine when I left about 1/2 an hour later. Will go check her in another hour. The other horse that is sick is no where near mine and have never met. I forgot to mention she will eat grain with gusto even get excited when she thinks I'm going to give her some. Nickering, ears pointed forward, etc. I only give her a couple handfuls a day due to the diarrhea but boy she enjoys it, could she have a little more or would that be asking for trouble? She will also eat carrots and apples, but I keep them to minimum also would they hurt anything? I just don't want to aggravate that gut anymore than it is. She still seems depressed and tired. How long does it take for salmonella to take its course, presuming I can pull her thru this at all? We are both getting very tired. The vet is going to be out of town for a week starting Thurs. is there anything I should have him do before he leaves? Thanks Again
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 11:41 pm:

Here I go again Dr. O. I posted this under my post from last year because this mare has started this again today. Odd it's almost exacly a year to date. She has started with the diarrhea again, depressed and not eating. The equine vet is out of town again for the week. Called another vet. Her temp was 100, resp 50, heart rate 38. She will not eat or drink. The vet said her stomach was very active. He gave her 10cc banamine and getomicin. I do not want this to get out of control like last year. What can I do early to get this under control? Maybe I am panicing but the horse and I can't go through this again. If she is still ill tomorrow the vet said he should come out again, is gentomiocin a good idea? What blood tests should I have done? Is there any certain weed or tree that causes these symptoms that come to mind? I did read the poisonous plant section but am not sure. He did say he is treating another horse about 15 mi. away with the same symptoms. My horses have not been off the property for mos. I will go out there bright and early in the morning and hope all is better, however when I left she was more relaxed with the banamine but still no interest in food. The only difference this year is she seemed much more aggitated and colicy before the banamine, Please any suggestions I can give vet (he is the cow vet) and any treatment I can begin? Thanks I'll report in the morning hopefully she'll be over it.
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 11:47 pm:

forgot to add the vet said something about oiling her tomorrow if she isn't better is that a good idea? Thanks again
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2003 - 5:29 pm:

Hello Diane,
The yearly cycle certainly suggests a possible poisonous plant. There are dozens of possiblities and you will find a list of common ones in the Diarrhea Overview article. But it is far more sensible to go out and identify the plants in your pastures and then see if any have a reputation of causing troubles than it is to identify all the plants that might be responsible for problems. If your veterinarian is not interested or knowlegable your local extension service will help you. If you bring me a list I will be glad to review it.

The blood tests and treatment that should be performed are directed by the physical exam results and formulated ruled out list, I would consider the minimum a CBD and blood chemistry panel with electorlytes. I do not see the indication for gentocin in the information you posted but like the blood tests this must be directed by the results of the vet doing the physical exam, same for the oil. Perhaps reviewing the articles on diarrhea and those on colitis will refresh your memory on the particular diseases.
DrO
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003 - 5:56 pm:

Hi Dr.O. I penned that mare out of the pasture she was in and she is much better, not quite 100% but I'll take it. I went in search of poisonous things in that pasture and I THINK I may have found the culprit. Black Locust Tree all the leaves were stripped and the ground underneath it had been vacumed to dirt. Problem is from pictures I have encoutered I am not sure if it is a Black Locust or Honey Locust? I don't know if you are familiar with them, but this one had thousands of long seed pods in it which of course she was eating also. Is that a Black locust? I will continue my internet search to see if I can find more info on them. If it is a Black Locust I would be very inclined to think it was the culprit as the rest of the pasture is very clean of weeds. Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2003 - 8:52 am:

This may be Diane. Though diarrhea is listed as a possible symptom in the reference below, it is an inconsistant sign in the horse with the nervous symptoms more common and I can find a case report where constipation (impaction) occured. But the other symptoms fit pretty well. Don't stop looking until you have identified all the plants in your pasture, but certainly the black locusts trees should be removed.

From a discussion from the past:
As far as I can tell the honey locust (Gleditzia sp) is safe though the black locust (Robinia sp) is a known problem. Though this should be double checked I have always thought the big difference between the two is the very long twisting seed pods of the honey locust versus the shorter seed pods of the black locust: 2 to 4 inches long, flat, and dark in color.

I have since verified that this is true but you should note that the below reference makes a statement that honey locust may not be safe. I can find no reference to support or refute this though I know farmers who have fed their cattle livestock the pods of honey locust. From one of the links we list in the poisonous plant pages:

BLACK LOCUST Robinia pseudoacacia

TOXICITY RATING:
High to moderate. Horses are particularly at risk, but all animals ingesting the plant may be poisoned.

DANGEROUS PARTS OF PLANT:
Leaves, especially wilted leaves, young shoots, pods, seeds, inner bark.

SYMPTOMS:
Depression, poor appetite, weakness, paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (which may be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. Death is possible.

PLANT DESCRIPTION:
These moderate-sized trees with rough bark often bear two short spines at the base of each leafstalk (easiest to see on young leaves). Leaves are alternate and pinnately compound with oval, entire leaflets. The fragrant flowers are creamy white, sweet-pea-like, and arranged in long DrOoping clusters. The fruit is a flat brown pod which contains kidney-shaped beans. Black locusts are common in well-drained woods, thickets, and waste areas, especially in the southeastern part of the state. They are often planted along highways and fencerows as ornamentals and for erosion control.

SIGNS:
This discussion will center on the effects in horses, the species most likely to be poisoned by black locust. Horses may ingest the bark or leaves when hungry and no other forage is available, or if they are confined or bored in the vicinity of the tree.

There are several toxic components in black locust including the toxic protein robin, the glycoside robitin, and the alkaloid robinine. The toxins affect the gastrointestinal tract as well as the nervous system. Clinical signs can manifest as soon as one hour after consumption and can include depression, poor appetite, generalized weakness to paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (which may be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. With sufficient amounts ingested, death may occur within a few days, although black locust is not always lethal. Some animals recover despite showing clinical signs, an indication of the dose-dependent nature of the toxin.

Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos, pea family) has been implicated in causing similar toxic signs, but the information on this is not clear. Prickly ash (Zanthoxylum americanum, citrus family) superficially resembles black locust in vegetative aspect and has been blamed for loss of sheep.

FIRST AID:
If horses are observed eating black locust, contact a veterinarian immediately, since emergency measures to rid the gastrointestinal tract of toxin may be implemented. Beyond this, therapy is aimed at preventing further exposure and keeping other animals away from the trees, and treating clinical signs symptomatically. Recovery may take days to weeks. Be extra cautious around affected horses to prevent human injury, and these horses should not be ridden until all clinical signs have resolved.

PREVENTION:
Do not confine horses in an area where black locust grows. If this is unavoidable, provide enough palatable feed so that the horses leave the trees alone. Some horses are wood and bark chewers, however, and for these horses is may be necessary to fence off the trees or utilize a different pasture to prevent toxicosis. Paints and sprays to prevent wood chewing may be tried, but long-term success with these treatments may be difficult.
DrO
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