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  Discussion on Long Yearling with Juvenile Bone Spavin
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New Member:
Fahren

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 7:59 pm:

HI,
I am new to this board and have questions about two of my horses who are 1/2 brothers Belgian Warmbloods. My first horse Calypso is a 4 y/o 17.1h gelding I bought when he was 2 1/2. We had reason to x-ray his hocks a few months after I bought him because he kicked and got his leg over a wall. This injury has left him with a curb but did not appear to cause future unsoundness. When we did the x-ray there were bone spurs in the front. My vet advised me that we would watch them but he was not worried at the time. I started him and he went into real work at about 3 y/o. He was being ridden 5-6 days a week and doing 18" courses two times a weak. He was fine. During the winter he slipped before a lesson and seamed to be moving a little bit off, but it looked more like a stifle problem, we had his stifle x-rayed and there was no apparent injury so we treated it as a soft tissue and gave him 3 weeks off with turnout. He resumed work. Early spring he came home to grow up a bit before the show season where we planned to show him lightly in a 2'6" division. Before returning him to work I noticed a fair amount of swelling in his left hock where he had had the bone spurs. I had my vet come out and take more x-rays and flex him. He said he was not lame and did not flex positive. While lunging he dragged his toe sometimes, but could be worked out of this while being ridden. My vet attributed that to Calypso's laziness. He cleared him to go back into work and jump 2'6". He had about 6 weeks of light training being lunged 3-4 times a week and ridden/jumped (no course work, single fences) 1-2 times a week until the week before the show where he worked on courses 3 times (a significant increase in work). He went to the show and was moving/jumping great. He even won his flat class (Hunter under saddle where soundness is taken into play). He went home and had 1 day off. The next day he had a lesson and was fine (jumped) he seamed to move a bit funny (toe dragging...stifle...) but worked out of it. The next day he got caught in his blanket in the pasture but they did not notice anything when they brought him in. When they tried to ride him he was REALLY lame on his right hind. We had the vet out and he said he was off due to his hock not holding up to work. He told me give him 3 weeks off, but he told the barn he thought the horse was done. I got a second and third opinion. They both did there own x-rays and decided he had Juvenile Bone Spavin. One suggested i inject his hocks, the other said to take him off his cosequin and see if his joints would fuse. I told them both I did not need to use him. I would rather he got better so he would be useful in the future. He is a very talented horse that has the ability (if not the soundness) to go all of the way in the Jumper arena. The vet that said to take him off his supplements also said to work him at the walk and trot twice a weak to help the process. This is the method we chose to follow, but he got more uncomfortable off the cosequin. That same vet said he thought he was probably premature as a cause. I just went to buy this horses brother who is 18 months as a Stallion prospect. Fahrenheit when we had him vetted he had the same issues in his hocks. We spoke to the breeder and she said neither horse was early. My vet concluded that there bones in their hock joints suffered from dismaturity as foals causing the joint to prematurely collapse. I bought this horse anyway. This vet uses digital x-ray which is new for us in Vermont. I have read the other threads on this subject but did not see much specifically in the way of Juvenile Bone Spavin. My questions are: Should they be on or off supplements? For the 4 y/o should he be worked or out to pasture to grow up? Is the prognosis different in Juvenile? If the joint fuses should I expect the horse to be as useful as if he had not had this problem? Should i wait until the joint has fused to resume serious work with the 4y/o? Anything that can be done for Fahren the 18 month old to help? Thank you and sorry to be so long winded.
Zoe
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 9:19 pm:

Mmm I feel he is a bit too young for that amount of work.

I usually concentrate in ground work and manners until they are 4yo
New Member:
Fahren

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 9:52 pm:

Thank you for your opinion. Though I do not feel, and my vets agree, that in this case his problems were caused by being put to work to early. The 18 month old is of course just being a baby in the field. I cleared it with my vet before we started calypso. There was not a lot asked of him. I am very light, and he is very large, if you read the post most of what he did was equivalent to light hacking. As with a lot of warmbloods he was tested to see his natural potential.Calypso
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 11:39 pm:

My vet and the farrier/hoof care clinician he works with have both told me they think lunging is the single worst thing for a young horse's joints. The small circles stress the bone structure all the way from the coffin bone to the shoulders and pelvis, front and rear, in their opinion. They attribute that to a lot of the unsoundness issues we see so often and in so many horses.
New Member:
Fahren

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 8:50 am:

HI Julie I agree. I should have specified that whenever lunging my older horse (the younger one has not been lounged and will not be for quite a while) I walked up and down the arena more like long lining. He was not lunged on a "circle". I also know that especially for large babies circles are bad. Again though, he had these hock issues before he started work, and it appears my 18 month old who has never been asked to do anything has the same issue. My vet calls it Juvenile Bone Spavin. I understand some on this board dont agree with working horses young. I appreciate your position. Every horse is an individual, and though it may not be right for one, it may be fine for another. Thanks for your input.
Zoe
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 9:50 am:

Welcome Zoe, I hope you work out your horse issues. I just wanted to say that I looked at your profile and web site. What a beautiful drawing and such a nice tack shop! Did you do the drawing?
Wish I could shop in a nice place like that, I'd probably be inspired to spend way too much money!
New Member:
Fahren

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 11:10 am:

Hi Erika, thanks for the welcome! I did not do the drawing, I had it designed as my logo, it is supposed to be me on my old horse sipping a cup of espresso :-) Did you visit my website https://www.secretlinkstables.com. There are pics of the inside of the shop and most of our horses.
Zoe
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 6:07 pm:

Welcome Zoe,
To get started lets pin a few facts down. Exactly which of the joint(s) in the hock are diagnosed with arthritis Zoe as it makes a difference in the recommendations. Was an intra-articular block done to rule in the site of pain? And lastly do they think there is bilateral lameness?
DrO
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 6:29 pm:

Welcome Zoe! Regarding your youngster, would it possible to let him mature before asking him to do the amount of work that you did with Calypso? Since he's the same problems, starting him as young as you did Calypso would probably bring the same results.

For Calypso, I wonder if a year of rest, until he's five, would do him some good, to let his joints completely mature, and possibly heal some of the damage already done?

In my opinion, asking a horse to jump, no matter what height, is not considered light work, and especially for a young'un. And since your horses are "drafty" (belgians, right?) they will grow and mature even slower than a lighter breed horse would.

This is an excellent subject, and you're sure to get lots of replies because there are many differing opinions. :0)

Nicole
New Member:
Fahren

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 6:39 pm:

Dr.O,
I am getting the digital X-rays emailed to me from my vet and will post them for both horses as well as his findings. The lameness was definitely more pronounced on the left side. There was never much at all noticeable on the right. None of the 3 vets did a block... I have often wondered about that. (Calypso is prone to hurting himself, for instance tonight when I went to feed his entire forearm and knee and pastern were very swollen and he had slices his frog. Our pastures are very safe, I think he just likes visiting with the vets who get to see him again tomorrow). I will get you all the information tomorrow. and thank you for the welcome.
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 6:49 pm:

Hi Nicole,
Thanks for the welcome! As we have "diagnosed" Fahren early he will not be started until he is older. We also bought Fahren for different reasons, his is to be the good life of a breeding stallion. The vet does not believe this to be hereditary. Fahren will eventually go through the approval process which is strenuous, but we will hold off for a while (many are sent to their 100 day test as 3 y/o). They are not so much "drafty" as they are "warmbloody" . Belgian Warmbloods as in a regional warmblood like dutch, not as in a belgian draft cross. But yes they will not be done maturing until they are 7. Calypso has had since the spring off to try to let his joints fuse, Unfortunately as I stated above he does more Serious things to himself when he is out of work!. The vets did prefer that Calypso was kept in light work to help the process along, but as he did not agree we have not done that. He made it clear to me that he was not interested in working off his joint supplements and as he is very large and I myself had a new baby and was out of shape I decided to go with him on that one :-)
Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 9:26 pm:

HI Zoe;
You might want to look into some of the Icelandic sites. They are prone to spavin and have a lot of discussions on them. I'll try to simplify some of the veterinary comments they've made. It can affect one or both legs, if both the horse does not usually present lame but has shorten strides. The disease affects the "sliding" bones of the hock, not the main joint responsible for flexing. (keep in mind the terminology may not match ours, I'm working off of translations)If the sliding bones fuse the horse can still perform, if, the calcification impinges on the main joint lamness can occur. There is no way of knowing the outcome. They refer to spavin as a multi factor disease with contributing agents being; genetics, pelvis tilt, conformation, training, rider skill, saddle fit. Icelandics have some peculiar gaits and reference is also made about contributing factors if the back is used wrong. There are a lot of discussion pages on it and a lot of sides lining up for genetics vs training. Hope you find some answers. Might also want to check owners of some other brothers. Breeders tend not to follow off spring health history once they leave.
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 10:21 pm:

Hi Beverly,
Thanks. I had looked at an article on Icelandic's on this site before I posted. This breeder does try to keep track of her horses and she was surprised when I told her that Calypso had this condition. She was also there when we vetted Fahren with the digital xray and so she saw right away. she was concerned about having this pop up in two of her horses she asked the vet if it could be hereditary or something that could be prevented while the mare was pregnant. He said he thought not, but I guess who really knows... Theses foals are not from a young Stallion, they are both sired by her very proven 27 y/o who had a very successful grand prix jumping career in Belgium, followed by a successful stud career both in Belgium and in the US. He does not have a history of throwing unsound horses. I have seen a good selection of mature horses out of this Stallion. My two horses dams are not related. Fahrens dam has had multiple foals and was one of the breeders premier mares. Calypsos dam just has one other foal by the breeders other stallion. Calypso has very decent conformation. It is hard to tell with Fahren because he is such a lanky baby 15.2h and about 1 foot wide :-) Right now he is a bit cow hocked which I know could contribute to his condition, but he should grow out of it. Overall this breeders horses goon to be able to compete up to international level. One of her Stallions sired Robert Dover's Olympic mount. I know we wont know how they will fuse until it is done. But we are happy that on Calypso the arthritis seems to be localized to his hocks.
Zoe
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 9:59 am:

Dr. O,
I found the info regarding my colt Fahren, still waiting ion the copy of his x-rays. This is the summation my vet made regarding his hocks:
"Radiographs of the hocks revealed bilateral severe osteoarthritis of the tarso metatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. It appears the horse had collapsed tarsal bones earlier in life leading to juvenile spavin at this time. The remodeling of the joints appears very close to the proximal intertarsal joint. Overall prognosis for future athletic use is concerning based on these findings."
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 10:19 am:

Hi Zoe,

I see what you mean. They are Belgian, as in the country, not the breed. I gotcha now. Sorry for the miss understanding.

Oh I totally understand about the horses doing more serious work when they are supposed to be resting, I know about that all too well, lol.

Fahren is a very pretty boy (I love the name too!). I hope you are able to figure out what's up with his joints. Will he stay that color? ... Or is he turning grey? He's flashy none the less.

Nicole
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 11:43 am:

Hi Nicole,
I love his color also, but he is turning grey and will probably end up almost white like his mom. We had to name him a "F" name due to the year he was born so we decided on Fahrenheit, that is where we got "Fahren" for a barn name!
Fahrenheit
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 8:36 am:

It is the involvement of the proximal intertarsal joint that is of concern, arthritis here will spread up into the tibiotarsal joint and this will not respond by fusing and result in permanent arthritis. You mentioned swelling earlier, exactly which structure was swollen?
DrO
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 8:44 am:

Hi Dr. O,
I found the information on my horse Calypso:
vet letter

I am still waiting on the x-rays but I dont know if they will get them to me before the weekend.
Thanks
Zoe
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 8:51 am:

Dr. O,
Sorry for this to be getting confusing! The first information: "Radiographs of the hocks revealed bilateral severe osteoarthritis of the tarso metatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. It appears the horse had collapsed tarsal bones earlier in life leading to juvenile spavin at this time. The remodeling of the joints appears very close to the proximal intertarsal joint. Overall prognosis for future athletic use is concerning based on these findings." Is for Fahren, My yearling who has presented no swelling or lameness. We found these results as part of a pre-purchase. My older horse who was in work Calypso had the swelling on his left hock through the sides they were thick and meaty. This was before he went back into work in the spring. We had him x-rayed at that time and flexed by a vet and he has said he thought the swelling to be inconsequential and to go ahead and work the horse. It was after this that he was shown, got twisted in his blanket, was lame, and got re-checked by a different vet. See letter above. Fahren is 18 months old.
Calypso is 4 years old. Thanks again and let me know if I can clarify further.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 8:30 am:

Zoe, the devil is always in the details and by fleshing out the details you can make more informed discussions.

So to get back to your orignial questions which seems to center around what is the best way to get these joints to fuse, first you should follow your veterinarians recommendations, as you can see from the questions there may be details we are unaware of. We have an article that answers most of your questions about the process at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthrodesis and Joint Fusion for Arthritis. I agree with the thoughts expressed by those earlier that at this age pasture exercise would be best with the reasoning being too much exercise may allow the arthritis to propagate to the more proximal joints.
DrO}
Member:
Fahren

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 10:13 am:

Hi Dr. O,
Thanks for the answer. I did reed that article. One of my main concerns were if the progression was the same in juvenile bone spavin ? You mentioned to follow the vets advice, but that pasture excursive was best? For the 4 y/o they suggested light riding. I had planned on giving him the winter and at least early spring off. Is it better to light ride or have him just out in the pasture? He does not move around lots in the pasture :-). Of course the 18 month old is just growing up in a pasture. How long does fusing take? I know it is probably different in every horse.
Zoe
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 8:33 pm:

The term juvenile bone spavin really does not have any special meaning and you should look at it in the same light as you would and DJD of the hock. With natural fusion it is impossible to predict a time frame because it is so variable.
DrO
Member:
fahren

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 9:07 am:

UPDATE:
This spring-summer we did a course of OCD Equine pellets (Now called cal-density) https://www.caldensity.com/
I used it on both Fahren and Calypso and another TB filly I have for another reason. I noticed with calypso that he was moving better while at work, but was not sure it was the supplement. I recently had the vet out doing x-rays on Fahren for another issue and we decided to shoot his left hock which had been the worse one. The vet was very surprised to see total fusion in the affected joint at such a young age and so soon after the last x-rays (Fahren is now 2 years and 4 months, the last x-rays were taken about 10 months ago). He said it was the best outcome for that affected joint that we could hope for, and though he was not sure it was the supplement he was willing to consider it might have been. Next time I have the digital x-ray out at my barn I will shoot Calypso also.
Zoe
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 8:33 pm:

Zoe can you tell us the ingredients, their concentration, and the amount fed?
DrO
Member:
fahren

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 9:56 pm:

Sure,
I think they might have changed the base to their supplement, but what I fed:
Guaranteed Analysis (all min unless stated):
Crude Protein-2%
Glycine-1%
Glutamine-1%
Glucuronic Acid-0.5%
Aspartic Acid-0.5%
Lysine-0.5%
Hyaluronic Acid-50mg/oz
Proline-0.31%
Glutamic Acid-0.3%
Arginine-0.21%
Threonine-0.08%
Crude Fat-.10%
Crude Fiber(Max)-24%
Silicon-4%

Ingredient Statement: Forage Products, Dextrose, Yeast Culture, Mucopolysaccharides, Silicon Dioxide, TriBioCon(tm)(Silicon Blend), Hyaluronic Acid, Glycine, L-Glutamine, Aspartic Acid, L-Lysine, L-Proline, Boron Amino Acid Complex, L-Threonine, Animal Protein Products, Manganese Sulfate, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Sulfer, Ascorbic Acid, L-Serine, L-Valine, L-Histidine, L-Isoleucine, L-Alanine, Bentonite, Sodium Benzoate (a preservative), Yucca Schidigera Extract (a natural flavoring agent), Natural and Artificial Flavors.

Feeding Directions:
Maintenance for Mares, Foals, Yearlings or Horses in Training: Feed one small scoop (enclosed) per day with regular feed or by hand [scoop is about 1 oz by my eye]
Full Strength for Horses with Increased Requirements: Feed one Larger scoop (enclosed) per day with regular feed or by hand. {about 2 oz by my eye]

They tell you for Maximum/Research to double Full strength dose and feed Am and PM which is what I did with my horses. I put it in their feed tubs and watched them eat it before they would get their grain... quite costly and I did not want to risk it getting thrown to the ground.
Zoe
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 8:12 am:

Oh Zoe, I am sorry to hear this stuff was expensive. This product is pretty much nonsense. It lists all those fancy ingredients which are simply minuscule amounts of amino acids (available in quantities 100's of time higher in plain regular feed), a suboptimal doses of hyaluronate, and tiny quantities of silica containing clay (bentonite). There is a theory about silica's role in regulating bone growth and formation but there is so much unknown that dietary recommendations are impossible and the tiny amount given from a source that might not even be absorbed from the bowel seems very unlikely to have any effect and certainly known documented.

On the other hand fusion of juvenile bone spavin when it is located in the distal 2 tarsal joints is the most common outcome naturally. Many of these are detected on incidental prepurchase re-exam with no history of lameness: they were always fused.
DrO
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