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  Discussion on Possible founder or toe bruising in EMS mare
Author Message
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 2:04 pm:

I emailed a few of you for moral support yesterday before the vet came out to look at Mona. She has been depressed for a week or two and has started leaving her coastal occasionally for the past week. Yesterday I found her standing in the manure pile in back of the barn and the other two were eating their coastal. She never normally leaves until the last piece of hay is gone. She did the same thing a few days ago. My husband has been taking care of the horses since my surgery to replace a cervical disc two weeks ago. Mona is approx a 7 - 7 1/2 on DrO's scale, and has almost always had a cresty neck. She is on 1 scoop Thyrol L and has been for about a year and a half to two years. It seems to have helped with her weight gain problem, she has been steady at 1045lb for about a year (she has been as high as 1086), Yesterday, I took her to the small front paddock and made her move and it took a lot to make her trot and when she did, it was baby steps and as soon as I stopped the pressure to trot, she stopped completely. Yogi was running around like a banshee. but she wanted to stand still. I was defying Dr orders to even go out there, so I didn't push it and try to clean her feet. Dr Wells reiterateted that I was to stay away from her till he got there. We just put down some road base in the stalls and area around the barn, and she had some of that packed in her front hooves and he thinks it might be that she has sore toes due to the small sharp stones. She tested positive with hoof testers on toes on both feet. He did not do radiographs as he thinks it is mild and may be only bruising. He has pulled her grain for 4-5 days, added 2g bute 2x day for 3 days, 1 g bute 2x day for 3 days, then 1 g bute 1x day for 3 days. Can start giving grain after 5 days if she is feeling much better, and I am to call him on Friday to give a report. She won't eat bute, so had to dose her this morning (again against Dr orders - did wear helmet though). She did fine, so now it is wait and see. DrO any more ideas? The Ortho Dr is fitting me for a machine that I carry around with me to help control pain and so I should be able to do more with the horses. They really are very calm around me right now. I am feeling better about her today, but don't think she is out of the woods at all. Wish her luck. Thank you.
Kathleen.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 3:09 pm:

Kathleen, I can't scold you for going out to the horses as I've set a bad example. I'm glad you had your helmet on.

I think it's very possible the new road base could cause a problem for Mona. Is it the kind of base where the rocks sink in and it soon makes a firm surface?

A Shire breeder I know got tired of all the mud we get in spring, and put down cinder rock all around the barn area. It looks great, but she soon had lots of foot problems and eventually lost one of her horses. (I guess those big guys really put a lot of weight on one foot, so the pressure is even greater than with a smaller breed.)

I'm certainly not trying to frighten you; if your base is the kind of stuff we have on our drive and in front of the barn,where the rocks sink, it's fine in a week or so. The more you drive on it, the faster it smooths out.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 3:25 pm:

Sara,
Yes that is the same stuff that you have. We have been using it for years without problems, but the problem now is that I listened to the Drs and did not clean her feet, that won't happen again. I am going to listen to my instincts and go with them. Just hope that a little bruising is all it is. She is still very tender on them today, so will see how it goes.
Kathleen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 4:51 pm:

Do you have some sole paint to toughen her soles? Or have you already tried that? Is there someone that could put in on for you?
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:37 pm:

Kathleen how about boots of some kind.Told you Ellie's story and they helped her we got old mac's. Think I mentioned B-L solution we started using it as Zarr can smell bute a mile away. It does work very well without side affects of bute and they all seem to love it?? We have basalt out croppings that cause bruise feet and Mona's movement echos mine wnen they have bruised their feet. Please take care. Cindy
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:40 pm:

Is she shod or barefoot? How does she stand? what is her scale of lameness? Is it one foot or two That might help in finding out what is wrong.
If she is barefoot then I would use boots untill she was comfortable. You cant use them with shoes though. Actually I am not sure about easy boots. the others you cant.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 9:49 pm:

Hi all,
She has shoes on her front feet, bare on back. Yesterday she was probably a 3 of 5 on both front feet. That's just my guess. The vet saw her walk on soft grass and she was sore enough looking that didn't ask her to do any more than walk. She reacted to hooftesters at the toe area of both front feet, but not horribly like I had expected her to. She seems just slightly better tonight. If she is not better, I think the vet wants to go ahead and xray to see what is going on, but he feels like it is likely bruising. When he cleaned out her feet, there were small sharp stones in an almost cement like base that was hard to get out of her hoof. When I cleaned her feet this morning, it came out easily, so she could have had that in there for a few days and the fact that she was looking for soft ground says she was pretty sore, just don't know for sure why. She really doesn't seem in extreme distress as I would expect from founder, but then again, I've never had a horse founder before, so have no basis for comparison. Sara, no don't have sole paint (I'm not a soul painter, I'm a horse painter), but will get some if needed. Will keep you posted.
Kathleen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:52 pm:

No, but you paint from your "soul" Kathleen!

Probably turpentine would work as well as the sole paint. If it's tenderness, it seems to help my one girl that gets tender after trims and when the ground is wet.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 7:05 am:

Kathleen, why would you put a horse that is a 7 and having possible problems with bruising or a mild founder (seems likely considering the circumstances) back on grain? Isn't this how the trouble got started.

To treat the horse let's use paste to be sure the horse gets it all but most important: you need to follow your doctors directions and quit messing around with the horses until you heal. This is now the husbands job. I mean it, you go through the pain and expense of surgery and at a moments notice could undue all the work and then be worse off, particularly with respect to being able to mess around with horses in the future.

For more on caring for a mild founder follow the links in the metabolic section, read it to your husband.
DrO
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 9:56 am:

Thank you DrO for the scolding. I know you are right and my husband has taken over everything to do with the horses, but I decided he shouldn't have to do everything. He has fought me and you are fighting me and you both have won the battle (the war is still up for debate). I will let him do it. I did dose her twice yesterday to make sure she got the bute and he watched and will do it now. I just feel so guilty. He feeds the horses at 4:30am and is off to work at 5:00 and gets home at 7:00 and then feeds the horses and cleans the stalls and then fixes dinner (his choice again). But after doing what I did yesterday and the day before, I could not sleep last night due to pain, so I am sure you are right. Hope they get that machine approved by the insurance company soon, it is supposed to help with the pain. Do you really feel that it is most likely mild founder? I will print out the article and read it this morning. The concussion combined with this surgery has made it hard for me to understand what I read sometimes, so I read it again until I get it. Sometimes I get it the first time. Mona has been getting 16oz of Ultium 2x day - it is high fat and low carb, and since she has been holding her own with the weight problem and I was planning to start working with her a little this month, I thought it would be OK for a little grain. OK, so no grain. You win again. I am going to call a neighbor girl to see if I can pay her to do some of the work.

Sara, we used a solution of iodine crystals poured on the soul and then turpentine poured over it and it helped toughen the soul of a TB/Appy cross my daughter had many years ago. The cool thing about it was that when you poured on the turpentine, there was a cloud of pink smoke. Will keep you posted and thanks again for your help and caring.
Kathleen
Member:
Erika

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:38 pm:

Kathleen, is that the same pink smoke we remember from college?
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:59 pm:

You know.......I forget.
Kathleen
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 7:39 pm:

Update,
Mona is now on her last day of bute and is still moving very stiffly. She got better on the 2g bute 2x day and stayed better during 1g 2x day, but still not striding out or moving much on her own volition. She did sling her head one day while she was trotting and that is usually a good sign. It means she wants something or she is proud of herself. Today she is very stiff moving again, almost as short strided in front as before the bute. (She was on 2g 2xday for 3 days, then 1g 2xday for 3 days, then 1g 1x day for 3 days.

DrO,
Since she is still not right, should I keep her on the bute? I will call the vet tomorrow to give a report and find out what he wants me to do. Frankly, right now I don't know what to do. I think she should be radiographed, I want to know what is going on in there. Is that indicated at this point DrO? I will reread the article and see if I can comprehend more of it this time and maybe answer my own question, what a concept. Without pulling the shoes, how can you tell if the toes are bruised. My vet still thinks that that is the problem. When my husband cleaned her feet today, he had trouble and came and got me so I could give Mona the evil eye when she tried to move away from him. I noticed that she stood ok when he was cleaning the left foot, but tried to get the weight off the left foot when he cleaned the right one.
Kathleen
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 7:55 pm:

The vet was just here and took xrays of both front feet. She still is testing positive to hooftesters on both feet. He put on something he calls 'tennis shoes'. It is an Equilox product that is blue (called Equilox Blue) and forms a pad from the center of the foot back to the heel. It is flush with the bottom of the shoe and conforms to the sole and frog, and leaves the sole open from the toe to the middle of the foot so that no pressure is put on the coffin bone;and it can be removed and cleaned and replaced. Then the foot is wrapped with elasticon, just on the hoof. The vet just called and said that there is NO rotation on either foot, so keep her on the bute till Monday and call him for further instructions. Sounds like we have it under control for now. Good news is needed sometimes.
Kathleen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 8:52 am:

Wonderful news Kathleen, continue to treat the symptoms, address any causal factors, and some time.
DrO
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 9:25 am:

Thanks DrO,
Will do. (have taken her off all grain except a handful for now for the bute.) Vet said she will do fine with Alfalfa, coastal, free choice loose minerals and free choice loose salt.
Kathleen
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 11:09 am:

Mona is still doing fine, almost back to her old self. She is now off bute since Monday evening. Vet wants us to wait 3-4 days and if she is still comfortable, have the farrier out and he will do something similar to what the vet did with the Equilox.

DrO, I have another question concerning feed. I have tried researching black oil sunflower seeds and have found discussions that mention them, but nothing from you about whether or not they are safe to feed. Would they be safe to give a small amount, handful, to Mona in place of her grain or for treats? Or do you think that the 12 oz (or less)of Ultium I was feeding would be OK? The vet said he did not think that she is grossly overweight and she might be between a 6/7 (probably closer to 7)on your scale.
Kathleen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 12:07 pm:

Kathleen, I'm so glad Mona is improving. How are you doing?
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 1:24 pm:

Hi Sara,
I'm doing OK. They will bring the Ortho-Stim machine to my house and fit me for it sometime this week or next. I tried stopping my pain meds, but that was a mistake, you don't stop taking opiates cold turkey. I'm not very bright sometimes. My Dr said I'm only 1 month post op and I don't need to think of getting off of the pain meds. All in all it's going OK. How about you. How are you handling all the 'stuff' right now? BTW, DJ would like to hear from us to keep her updated on HA goings on and just general horse stuff to brighten her day.
Kathleen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 3:50 pm:

My doctor calls it "living better through drugs." Keep on them as long as they're needed, then wean off them. I'll email you. Carrots to Mona.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 6:46 am:

Yes sunflower seeds would be safe as a small treat but you do need to get Mona down to a firm 6 on the body condition scoring system so make the carrot bits small.
DrO
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 9:19 am:

Mona thanks you, we have cut out all carrots until now. She has lost approx 60 lbs (per vet scale) and I will start working her from the ground next month. The vet gave his ok to start her easy re the RH tendon injury.
Thanks for your help and merry christmas
Kathleen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 22, 2006 - 7:19 am:

You are welcome and Merry Christmas.
DrO
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 1:17 pm:

Update on Mona
A lot has happened in the past year and a half. I will try to remember the sequence and details of events since Dec 2006 when I last posted. Mona was pretty much sound from about the beginning of 2007 until June/July 2007. Then she had acute pain in RF and stayed at vet hospital for a couple of days. Then she was lame off and on for a couple of months. Never enough to treat other than with her diet, but vet said he thought it was probably mild laminitis, more so on right front. Farrier agreed and started using EquiPak on RF. Our farrier retired pretty soon after the initial lameness and his replacement took over his business and Mona's feet have been getting better at each shoeing. She is now completely sound and he said there is no longer any sign of the laminitis. When the laminitis started she was still overweight, about a 7, so I cut her ration about as low as I thought I safely could and she still gained a little weight, vet agreed. In October 2007 Mona weighed 1083 lbs and a 7+. Vet put her on 4 tsp Thyro-L and 10-15mg Chromium 1x/day. And now after 6 months, she weighs 967 lbs (lost the weight without exercise as I couldn't ride) and we have now been able to increase her hay a little, trying to get the feed right so she doesn't lose any more weight. Vet said she will be on this combination for the rest of her life. He said that in his opinion it would do no harm to her thyroid and would be safe to continue. I started riding her and he was so happy with the way she looked that he said that at the ripe old age of 22 she was ready to do anything I wanted to do with her. Hopefully this will be the last I will need to post on this subject.
Member:
pbauer

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 6:38 pm:

Dear Kathleen,


Such great news!!

Love, Tonya

Member:
zarr

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 9:29 pm:

Kathleen, don't have anything as cute as Tonyas post but I sure can give you and Mona a BIG Yippeee Skipppeeee ! Ellie as you may remember had same mild case of laminitis and was on the same stuff it does work so very well Thank Goodness :-) Cindy
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 6:41 am:

Good news Kathleen, Enjoy your rides
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 9:32 am:

Congratulations Kathleen! Hope you and Mona will have a happy summer together1
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 3:53 pm:

Excellent to hear things are going so well Kathleen. More and more I hear similar opinions about thyroid supplementation as that your vet has though it is counter-intuitive when you look at other species where such supplementation does cause problems and good long term testing is not available yet. I have also heard that once weight loss has been achieved weaning off is recommended (Valberg personal communication). I have been fortunate that I have not had to resort to such supplementation to achieve weight loss but that does not mean it has always easy. Certainly let us know if anything changes I do believe these long term reviews of common problems are some of the most helpful posts we have in Horseadvice.com.
DrO
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 8:16 pm:

Thanks everyone.

DrO, I will keep you posted. As to the weaning off, one of my vet's vet-techs has a pony who was put on this treatment and lost weight; but when they discontinued the treatment, it foundered. Don't know if there is a direct relationship between discontinuing thyroid/Chromium treatment and founder, unless it is that the pony gained back the weight and then foundered. There is a lot that we do not know. Thanks again for all your support.
Kathleen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 5:39 pm:

I have stopped many horses on thyroid medication and don't associate it with an increase in founder but certainly if weight is not controlled you will have trouble. Having experimented with chromium I do not see much change. We have discussed this before so doing a search should turn up some complete discussions of this.
DrO
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