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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Diagnosing Diseases of the Nervous System » |
| Discussion on I have 16 years old mare | |
| Author | Message |
| New Member: Serhat |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 2:51 pm: Dear Sir, MadamI have 16 years old mare. 2 years ago she had an illness. We think that she was poisoned by someone else. Because at this moment she had competitions.Suddenly she started to fell down, she could not control her body very well,she started stumble very often. Moreover she was stumbling she could not control her body so she fell down. After a year relaxation, with some medicine such as 4-5 days serum physiological with DMSO, vitamin B, sodium bicarbonate, vitamin C and inflammatory. We think that with the help of this serum, almost 3 months later she gain her normal condition and she gave up stumble. However, during two weeks, she is always sleeping. She stands on to the door with her throat we also cannot understand how she can breath in this position. Moreover while she is sleeping in this position suddenly she is falling down. I think, sometimes she cannot control her body.She is always tired, she has some balance problems and she always strumbles.One other point is that she has no problem about her feather, hoof and her weight. In addition, she never lose weight during these time. I need your help because I cannot do anything for her. If you have any idea about her problem I will be very grate full to be informed about this. If you send me an e-mail as soon as possible I will be very happy. Thank you in advance your sincerely Gızem Çağıl e-mail adresse:jeudombre@gmail.com golgeat@hotmail |
| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 11:37 pm: I hope you can resolve this mare's problem. It must be very frustrating. Did your local vet also feel she was poisoned? How awful if she was! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 6:43 am: Welcome Serhat,I am sorry to hear about your horse. It sounds as though she may have gone through an episode of viral encephalitis and now has residual damage from the infection. However this is just a guess. For a list of possibilities see the two sections of the neurological disease section: one on depression and the other on incoordination. When she first got sick was she examined by a veterinarian? If you will copy the report onto here I would be glad to review it. And concerning her current state, what are the results of a good veterinary exam, particularly the vital signs and laboratory findings on a complete blood work up? DrO |
| New Member: Serhat |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 12:20 pm: Dear DrO,First of all, I am very grateful for your reply.I live in Turkey, and in my country neither our veterinary nor anyone can understand or know this illnesses.Moreover, unfortunately, I do not have any blood report.However,if you can tell me the necessary blood reports,immediately I will do. thank you very much serhat |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 10:33 am: I was hoping to get information about the initial clinical picture which may narrow the possibilities Serhat. Has your veterinarian examined this horse and was then unable to diagnose the problem? If you would list his findings from the physical exam, including your horses vital signs whether normal or abnormal, I might be able to further direct you to ways to get this problem identified.DrO |
| New Member: Serhat |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 6:42 pm: Our veterinarian could not diagnose the problem and he did not ask any blood report.Only he thought that this illness was neural.I am a trainer and when no one could help me I was starting to research.I thought that this is EPM but the veterinarian said that EPM is never seen in Turkei and this cannot be EPM.So I was in between EPM and poisoned. So I and veterinarian concur and we did DMSO serum Folic acid,vitamin B,C and E,Sodium Bicarbonate,Biodyl. Later on,we did Dewormer and trimetorphine treatment.This illness firstly became in the competitions two years ago. The horse had a strange imbalance,firstly some simple stumbling. However in one week,these stumbling became increase and she started to fall down only she tried to walk. On the other hand during these times she never lost her attention.But while she was stumbling she could not catch her balance again.When we checked her walk,we saw that her gallop capacity decreased and she put smaller steps. Her fever had a simply rise, very light losing weight.However there were not any problem about her eating and her feather.On the other hand, until approximately 1 mouth ago all these problems disappeared. However during this month she gets tired in 15 minutes walk. In her stable, she puts her throat on the door and suddenly she falls asleep in this position and sometimes she loses her balance and then she falls down.In this month there is not any difference in her fever.But when looking her eyes's mucous membrane are between white and yellow and there is not very vascular.But her appetite is very good.thank you in advance serhat |
| New Member: Serhat |
Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 2:58 pm: Our veterinarian could not diagnose the problem and he did not ask any blood report.Only he thought that this illness was neural.I am a trainer and when no one could help me I was starting to research.I thought that this is EPM but the veterinarian said that EPM is never seen in Turkei and this cannot be EPM.So I was in between EPM and poisoned. So I and veterinarian concur and we did DMSO serum Folic acid,vitamin B,C and E,Sodium Bicarbonate,Biodyl. Later on,we did Dewormer and trimetorphine treatment.This illness firstly became in the competitions two years ago. The horse had a strange imbalance,firstly some simple stumbling. However in one week,these stumbling became increase and she started to fall down only she tried to walk. On the other hand during these times she never lost her attention.But while she was stumbling she could not catch her balance again.When we checked her walk,we saw that her gallop capacity decreased and she put smaller steps. Her fever had a simply rise, very light losing weight.However there were not any problem about her eating and her feather.On the other hand, until approximately 1 mouth ago all these problems disappeared. However during this month she gets tired in 15 minutes walk. In her stable, she puts her throat on the door and suddenly she falls asleep in this position and sometimes she loses her balance and then she falls down.In this month there is not any difference in her fever.But when looking her eyes's mucous membrane are between white and yellow and there is not very vascular.But her appetite is very good.thank you in advance serhat |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 8:06 am: Thanks for the jostle serhat, I somehow overlooked the Sunday's post.What we need to start here is the horse's temperature, pulse rate, and respiratory rate. A brief but complete description of the abnormalities currently exhibited and a general health panel of blood tests as listed on References » Equine Vital Signs and Laboratory Values. We need the first 4 values under the Hematology, all of the Differential list, and Serum values except xylose. You may not be able to get all the tests but you should strive for as many as possible. By providing the information as a list it is easier to review. DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 1:04 pm: Dear DrO,Thank you very much for your respond. I try to do all of the blood tests as soon as possible but it takes some times. Serhat |
| Member: Santucci |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 9:58 am: Serhat, I can't offer any medical advice, just want to pass on my wishes for your horse's recovery. Your country is beautiful - I was lucky enough to be able to spend a few days there last summer, and my husband spent a lot of time there in the 1980s.Good luck with your horse! |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 3:58 pm: Dear DrO,BUN : 14 mg/dl CREA : 2.0 mg/dl ALB : 2.6 g/dl ALKP : 109 U/L AST : 404 U/L TP : 7.0 g/dl GLOB : 4.4 g/dl Ca : 13.6 mg/dl CK : 151 U/L GLU : 101 mg/dl NH3 : 64 umol/l PHOS : 3.5 mg/dl TBIL : 2.3 mg/dl HCT : 42.3 % HGB : 14.2 g/dl MCHC : 33.6 g/dl 9 WBC : 8.9 X10 /L 9 GRANS : 5.0 X10 /L %GRANS : 56 % 9 L/M : 3.9 X10 /L %L /M : 44 % 9 PLT : 163 X10 /L As I said before laboratory values take some times. I am sorry for this delay. These are some laboratory values. Moreover her temperature is 37,4 degree centigrade. Her pulse rate is 61 in 60 second. Her respiratory rate is 19 breath in 60 second. Thank you very much for your patience. Serhat |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:37 am: Excellent Serhat,sorry for the delay, I wanted to research the NH3 number as it appears elevated over normal. However ammonia (NH3) measurement are tricky and normal lab values vary, some suggest that even within the same lab they vary over time. As a result a paired sample with a normal horse of the same age, sex, and management has been recommended by some. Do you have your lab's normal values of all these results but ammonia in particular? Besides the ammonia, I must say the most remarkable thing in the above list is the heart rate of 61, this is very abnormal, unless the horse is excited when the pulse taken. Is this figure reliable, has the heart been carefully auscultated, and is so what was found? DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 2:33 pm: Dear DrO,Firstly, thank you very much for your interest. result reference range BUN: 14 mg/dl 10- 25 CREA: 2.0 mg/dl 0.8- 2.2 ALB: 2.6 g/dl 1.9- 3.2 ALKP: 109 U/L 10 - 326 AST: 404 U/L 100- 600 TP: 7.0 g/dl 5.6- 7.9 GLOB: 4.4 g/dl 2.4- 4.7 Ca: 13.6 mg/dl 10.4- 12.9 CK: 151 U/L 10- 350 GLU: 101 mg/dl 64- 150 NH3: 64 umol/l 0- 90 PHOS: 3.5 mg/dl 1.8- 5.6 TBIL: 2.3 mg/dl 0.0- 3.5 HCT: 42.3 % 32.0- 52.0 HGB: 14.2 g/dl 11.0- 19.0 MCHC: 33.6 g/dl 30.0- 36.9 9 WBC: 8.9 X10 /L 6.0- 12.5 9 GRANS: 5.0 X10 /L 2.8- 8.0 %GRANS: 56 % 9 L/M: 3.9 X10 /L 2.1- 7.0 %L/M: 44 % 9 PLT: 163 X10 /L 90- 350 BUN: 14 mg/dl 10- 25 CREA: 2.0 mg/dl 0.8- 2.2 However, unfortunately, in Turkei there is not any specific research or reference range. All these reference ranges are the machine value.And one other point is the heart rate. I will take it again and send it back as soon as possible. Thank you |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 6:30 am: According to this reference the NH3 is well within normal. It is always important to keep our rule out list in sight:
We still have the heart abnormalities to work out but with good weight and no swelling or coughing it is hard to imagine heart dysfunction so severe it would cause depression. Perhaps a very irregular heart could throw emboli (clots) and cause strokes so I still think a heart rate of 60 worth pursuing. I look forward to more information Serhat. DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 4:06 pm: Hi DrO,I took again the pulse rate. Her pulse rate is 51 after the 10 minute of working . And in her barn it is 35. Thank you very much Serhat |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 7:56 pm: Heart rates of 51 post exercise (it can go as high as 200 in a racing Thoroughbred) and resting of 35 is fine.We have ruled out most secondary causes of neurological dysfunction leaving primary central nervous system (CNS) disease. I am afraid at this point there is little left to find out as the damage to the CNS is difficult to pursue and after 2 years healing is mostly done. The prognosis for significant improvement at this point is guarded to poor and unless you are willing to cling to the tiny chance this horse may improve back to a working status you should get another horse. Just on a long shot I would like one more piece of information Serhat, exactly what is being fed to horse including all supplements, herbs, and medicines. Be sure to include amounts and frequency. DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 1:49 pm: Hi DrO,Here is my horse's nutrition order: - propel plus (equine america): 30 ml during one month,all days - 5 aspirin all days - 500g raisin all days - osteoglycan: 30g, all days(for her muscle arthrosis) - in the morning: 3 kg oat - in the evenings: 2 kg havens (reform herbal muesli) 500 g carrot 2 parsley - during 20 days: electro-dex - during one month: gelatinaat 40g - metafisiol: 100 cc metafisiol: L-Carnitine 5.000mg Vitamin B6 500 mg Vitamin B12 15 mg Nikotinamid 150 mg D-Panthenol 1.000 mg DL-Methionine 10.000 mg L-Arginine 3.000 mg L-Ornitine 2.000 mg L-Citrulline 2.000 mg L-Lysine 1.000 mg L-Glysine 2.000 mg L-Glutamic Acid 1.500 mg L-Aspartic Acid 1.500 mg Sorbitol 500 g This horse is very important for me. Participating to the competitions isn't important for me. One of the crucial important thing is her health. Thank you very much for your interest and your rapid answers. Serhat |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 7:35 am: My goodness Serhat is there no hay or pasture available? Can you give me more details on the Havens? I am uncertain what you mean by muscle arthrosis. Arthrosis means a disease joint, is the supplement for the muscles or the joints? What does it consist of and what indication do you have for its use?DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 1:10 pm: Hi DrO,I am sorry for misunderstanding that I caused. I give osteoglycan for her joints. Because she has participated competitions many years and she is 16 years old. With the help of osteoglycan, for ease of her joints movements. Also she eats 5 kg hay everyday. https://www.horsefeed.nl/page4.html Reform-Herbal-Muesli; "The Green Vet" Stimulates digestion, resistance and general condition, thanks to the beneficial action of the essential oils on the digestive system. High in Vitamins; low in proteins. (Bestsellers & Problemsolvers) Serhat |
| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 10:50 pm: I find your horse's diet interesting and very different than most horses would get here - not saying it's bad - just different. It's interesting that you feed raisins. I've read that many of the desert tribes in Egypt and Sudan feed dates and camels milk. Are all the supplements combined in the "havens" or do you have to add them individually? Guess I should go to the website you posted and investigate. thanks. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 10:29 am: Though quite involved and largely unhelpful I don't see anything overtly harmful. Considering your goals and the prognosis my recommendation Serhat is that you turn this girl out to good pasture or at least in a clean field with all the grass hay she would like to eat daily. Continue the oats with a vitamin supplement and joint supplement and be sure a mineral block is available. Of course you can still treat her with a carrot a day. For our recommendations on a vitamin supplement see Vitamins in the Nutrition Topic and for the joints, see Treatments and Medications for Horses > Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) > The Joint Protective Treatments. Let's see how this progresses over the next year but I would not expect much in either improvement or worsening unless these is ongoing active brain disease like cancer. But I hope I am wrong and there is continued improvement. I don't see any specific therapy that is indicated from the information here but if you can institute the help of a local veterinarian, and along with my recommendations above, you could try a course of corticosteroid at antiinflammatory doses. We are just fishing here for some undiagnosed noninfectious inflammatory disorder. For more on this see Treatments and Medications for Horses > Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) > Overview of the Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs.DrO |
| Member: Serhat |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 10:12 am: Dear DrO,Thank you very much for all your interests and helps. Serhat |
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