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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthrodesis and Joint Fusion for Arthritis » |
| Discussion on Intra-articular administration of ethyl alcohol for arthrodesis | |
| Author | Message |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 12:05 pm: Currently there are two chemical methods described to fuse joints: ethyl alcohol and sodium monoiodoacetate. The sodium monoiodoacetate is the older and better described method. The chief disadvantage being it is a percentage of horses become very painful following the procedure. Intra-articular administration of ethyl alcohol is currently an experimental procedure that shows great promise for arthrodesis of the joints of the hock. Horses have minimal to no lameness associated with the treatments.Am J Vet Res. 2006 May;67(5):850-7. Use of intra-articular administration of ethyl alcohol for arthrodesis of the tarsometatarsal joint in healthy horses. Shoemaker RW, Allen AL, Richardson CE, Wilson DG. Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, Western College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, SK S7N 5B4, Canada. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the efficacy and safety of intra-articular administration of ethyl alcohol for arthrodesis of tarsometatarsal joints in horses. ANIMALS: 8 healthy female horses without lameness or radiographic evidence of tarsal joint osteoarthritis. PROCEDURE: In each horse, 1 tarsometatarsal joint was treated with 4 mL of 70% ethyl alcohol and the opposite joint was treated with 4 mL of 95% ethyl alcohol. Lameness examinations were performed daily for 2 weeks, followed by monthly evaluations for the duration of the 12-month study. Radiographic evaluations of both tarsi were performed 1 month after injection and every 3 months thereafter. Gross and histologic examinations of the tarsi were undertaken at completion of the study. RESULTS: Horses had minimal to no lameness associated with the treatments. Radiography revealed that 8 of 16 joints were fused by 4 months after treatment, with significantly more joints fused in the 70% ethyl alcohol group. Fifteen of 16 joints were considered fused at postmortem examination at 12 months. Gross and histologic examinations revealed foci of dense mature osteonal bone spanning the joint spaces. Bony fusion appeared to be concentrated on the dorsolateral, centrolateral, and plantarolateral aspects of the joints. Significant differences were not detected between treatment groups for lameness or pathologic findings. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Administration of ethyl alcohol into the tarsometatarsal joint of healthy horses appeared to facilitate arthrodesis of the joint in a pain-free manner. Results warrant further investigation into the potential use of ethyl alcohol in horses clinically affected with osteoarthritis of the tarsometatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 7:23 pm: Hi Dr. O.,If you were going to try and facilitate fusion of a hock, would you try this method prior to resorting to surgery? Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 6:26 am: For arthritis of the distal 2 joints of the hock I believe I would Mary, the procedure was favorably reviewed at the recent AAEP.DrO |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 9:03 am: Dr. O.,That's really interesting, can you tell me more about what was said at the convention? Can you continue to ride the horse while he is undergoing treatment? Can he have bute and/or intraarticular injections while the fusing process is going on? Does this actually work? We are in the process of trying to decide what to do about my horse. He has arthritis in the two distal hock joints of his right hock, but not the one that communicates with the upper hock joint. The injections aren't even lasting him three months. He is a very big warmblood with a low tolerance for pain. The rest of him is in super shape! So, we are going to block him out again. If he blocks out to the lower hock joint, then I have to decide what to do re: surgery vs. this new treatment. My surgeon is suggesting trying the alcohol first, as he says we could always do the surgery if it doesn't work. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 6:51 pm: They said less than is in the summary above Mary, just that it looked promising.Addressing your questions: I have not seen any work that says riding is good or bad, but in an effort to keep the alcohol from diffusing to surround areas my thoughts would be to turn the horse out to pasture while fusion occurs and avoid forced work. I would avoid bute unless the discomfort is remarkable. Why would you want to do injections after the procedure? Does it work? The initial experimental work is very encouraging, but we don't have any field cases to draw real like examples from. DrO |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 7:41 pm: Dr. O.,I didn't know how much discomfort there might be, hence my questions about using injections while the fusion takes place, if I were to continue riding him. The vet is going to block him out tomorrow. If it is the lower hock joints, then we will make a decision re: treatment. If not, then I guess I don't have to worry about it at the moment. Thanks for the info. Mary |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55 pm: Hi Dr. O.,Is a contrast study with radiography an accurate test to determine whether there is communication between the lower hock joints and/or the upper hock joints? Thanks, Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 8:13 am: Contrast studies can show the communication Mary but I have never seen an experiment designed to see if it is 100% accurate.DrO |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 10:33 pm: Hi Dr. O.,Well, stay tuned, for Caymann has just joined the ranks of the great ethyl alchohol experiment. They blocked out his tarsometatarsal joint (for the hundredth time over the past year)today, and it again resolved his lameness, which has definitely worsened throughout the year, and markedly so the past couple of months. Our hunch is that the cartilage is continuing to wear away, since his radiographs don't match the level of pain he is in. He has been battling this for almost four years. The hock injections only last about six weeks, and even then he has never been completely sound. My vet recommended trying this over surgery, and said you can always go back and surgically fuse the joint if this doesn't work. I can start riding him in a month. Do you know of anyone who is trying this with their horse? Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 7:16 am: Mary, you are the first personal contact and I will be interested to watch this play out but don't worry too much the initial work on this looks very good: high success with no complications.DrO |
| Member: Canter |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 8:07 am: Oh, Mary! Can't tell you how sorry I am to hear of Caymann's continued troubles. As always, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome for you. |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 9:24 am: Hi Dr. O.,Thanks so much for the encouraging words! I trust my very wonderful veterinarian (Dr. Gary Baxter of Colorado State University)implicity. He has been our guide through this past year, which has been a challenging one as you know from our posts. He felt that this was the best option for Caymann, as it provides him with the best chance for fusion, with very little pain. He has been in enough pain for way too long. The best part for me is that I can continue riding him and he can have bute if needed. However, he may not need it. Since we now believe that the cartilage in that joint is eroding even further, we are just helping him along with the process. This explains alot of what has been going on this past year and why we have never really been able to get him sound even with the injections. I am so relieved that we may have another option besides surgery. I will definitely keep you posted throughout this process. Mary |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 9:32 am: Hi Fran,Maybe this will sound strange to you, but I am more relieved than sad. For me, the relief in finally knowing definitively that the source of his pain the past four years has been his hock. I would have been very surprised yesterday if he hadn't blocked out to that joint. It's funny how four years can come down to one simple little block. I am so thankful that he chose to have this problem in a joint that we could fuse. If this were any other high motion joint, he would be done. The rest of him is in fabulous shape, if this fusion is successful, he has a long career ahead of him. I am also grateful that this other option has come along in time for him. Mostly, I feel relief for my beloved horse who has been through so much. Nothing will give me greater joy than to know he is no longer in pain, and that we will hopefully achieve that goal in the most humane way possible. I do appreciate your support and kind words. We'll keep you posted and you keep riding that beautiful Holsteiner girl of yours. Caymann can't wait to send her a picture of his pain free hock! Mary |
| Member: Fahren |
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 11:09 am: Dr. O,Is there an age that this treatment would be inadvisable. I have a coming two year old and a four year old that both need to fuse, but is it a problem that they are both still growing (large warmbloods). Mary, I hope you dont mind me asking the ballpark of cost for this procedure in your area? Thanks! Zoe |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 11:17 am: Hi Zoe,I don't mind at all and the funny thing is that all of the diagnostics we have done over the past year have cost way more than one intra-articular injection of ethyl alcohol!! The actual injection itself probably cost less than a hundred dollars. They did some radiographs which were around $150.00. Then there was the lameness exam fee as well as a large animal professional fee charged by the hospital. Our entire day cost somewhere between five and six hundred dollars. That also included the blocking out of the hock joint and some sedation because you have to sedate him to block him as he is tired of being poked with needles! But the actual injection itself is very inexpensive. Mary |
| Member: Fahren |
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 12:12 pm: Thanks Mary!I know I have spent thousands on diagnostics and checking progression! That sounds well worth it! Zoe |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 12:36 pm: Hi Zoe,It will be well worth it if Caymann's hock successfully fuses! If this treatment works-it will be priceless to me. No surgery, minimal pain for my horse, I can ride him through the fusing process, and I can continue on with my beloved horse! Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 7:10 pm: Not that I am aware of Zoe and it would be hard to imagine what that would be, but the treatment is still in its infancy.DrO |
| Member: Fahren |
Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 9:21 am: Hi Dr.OI had requested this procedure from my vet starting with my 4 y/o. His receptionist finally got back to me saying he did not want to do it because he thought it to risky. Something about melting joints. I asked her to elaborate and she said he would give me a call. He is a well respected vet and runs the referral surgery center in our area. But maybe there was a miscommunication in what I wanted, though I was pretty clear. What "dangers" could he be talking about. I know anytime you inject a joint there is risk of infection. But isn't that the same with steroids which he is happy to do? Zoe |
| Member: Fahren |
Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 4:25 pm: Dr.O,My vet just got back to me with this info: Zoe, Thank you for your email. Hope you are doing well and that you had a great holiday season. My reluctance to perform the injections at this time is based on the following: - The sodium monoiodoacetate injections causes a level of pain that is pretty much inhumane for the horses. And people have lost horses due to this procedure. - The abstract of the article you sent shows promise about the future of the alcohol treatment. It's an pilot study that has not reported in detail the long term prognosis of these horses. - The authors write the following message at the end of the study: "Results warrant further investigation into the potential use of ethyl alcohol in horses clinically affected with osteoarthritis of the tarsometatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. - I cannot at this time try and use an experimental treatment which carries potentially serious side effects. The sodium injection studies have shown that several horses have joint fluid communication between the tarso crural joint and the proximal intertarsal joint, which would lead to severe arthritis of the main hock joint. Also, in the recent AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners) there was an open forum discussion about the alcohol treatment option and it was decided at the time this was not a viable option treatment based on the level of pain and complications associated with the procedure. Other options at this time would be injection with a strong dose of steroids, or fusion of the joint space using orthopedic removal of cartilage from he joint using a drill technique. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Loosing a horse like Calypso based on an experimental try has strong implications for my practice. Let me know if you have any more questions about this. I just wanted to get you opinion. Zoe |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 11:35 pm: Hi Zoe,I will defer to Dr. O on this one, but wanted to comment on my personal experiences. I am not trying to persuade you one way or the other. We each have to make the decision we feel is best for our horse. I was not aware that anyone even uses the MA treatment anymore due to intense pain that some horses experience, and the disasterous consequences if the MA were to diffuse outside of the intended joint. I am very well aware that this is still considered an experimental treatment. I very carefully weighed the risk of trying this vs. putting my beloved horse under general anesthesia again, which in my mind was almost as risky. The only potentially serious side effect that I am aware of is the possibility that the alcohol could diffuse to the proximal intertarsal and tarsocrural joint. That would be very bad. That was the reason that my vet was only willing to inject the tarsometatarsal joint. We did not separately inject the DIT joint, because he blocked out so soundly to just the tarsometatarsal joint, and because of the chance it could diffuse to the higher motion hock joints. However, there is the possibility of some diffusion from the tarsometatarsal joint to the DIT joint. (and if it does and fuses that joint too, I will consider it a bonus!)He felt it was very unlikely that it would diffuse from the tarsometatarsal joint to the proximal intertarsal joint/tarsocrural joint. I do not know that I would feel comfortable injecting the DIT joint directly even with the contrast arthrogram. All indications are that this is not a painful procedure at all, that is why if this works consistently, it is such a great method. I can tell you right now that since my horse has been injected with the alcohol almost two weeks ago, he is less painful than he was prior to the injection. They will evaluate him in another two weeks, and will take some more radiographs. The cost of the surgery was not the issue for me. If this works, we will have facilitated the fusion of the joint in the most humane, non-invasive, and pain-free manner to my horse possible, without the risks associated with surgery. If it does not work as expected, we can always go back and do the surgery. The plus for me is that I can start riding him shortly while the fusion process is going on. I, along with my vet whose opinion I trust, made the decision that we felt was best for my horse. There can be no question that we are going out on a limb here to some extent. But to me, the cons were far outweighed by the pros. Losing my beloved horse has strong implications for my mental health. I did not make this decision lightly. Mary |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 11:42 pm: Hi Dr. O.,OK, now Zoe has me thinking about this. Do you think it is unlikely that the alcohol would diffuse from the tarsometatarsal joint to the proximal intertarsal and/or tarsocrural joint? Mary P.S. Love the new design of the website! |
| Member: Fahren |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:19 am: Hi Mary,I was in the same boat as you. I had called my vet asking him to do this procedure...he said no and wrote the email above... It sounded like a great way to go and I hope it works out great for you. I am a bit stuck as I dont know that I would trust another vet i my area to do this procedure. My horse is one of those if it can go wrong it will... Curious to hear Dr. O's thoughts. Zoe |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:42 am: Zoe's vets points are all valid and have already been discussed above. In the tests done so far no one has described this problem but there are a percentage of horses who's upper and lower joints communicate. It is the reason for the advice on checking joint communication before doing the procedure.DrO |
| Member: Caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:53 am: Hi Zoe,I forgot to mention that I did inquire about doing the contrast arthrogram prior to injecting the tarsometatarsal joint. My vet did not feel as though that was necessary for whatever reason. I don't exactly remember, but I thought he said something about it not being a completely accurate way to ensure there would be no diffusion.I certainly would insist on it if we were to go back and inject the DIT joint as well. But as I mentioned above, I don't know that either myself or my vet would be comfortable doing that because of the possiblity of diffusion to the higher motion hock joint. My horse has never done things by the book either, so it does make me nervous! I did call and talk to one of the vets who was heading up this experiment. As far as I know, none of the research horses had any diffusion from the lower hock joints to the upper. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. For me, trying this method was the lesser of two evils. For someone else, the surgery may feel like the safer choice. I wish you all the best with your decision making process. Good luck. Mary |
| New Member: Lzieman |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 10:25 pm: Is there any chance of this working for a case of high ringbone? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 7:40 am: Yes I think there is a chance Lisa, but there are some important differences. There may be a touch more natural movement here making arthrodesis without fixation less successful. Also it is technically difficult to accurately insert a needle in the proximal interdigital joint. I would wait until some research is generated on this location in particular before I would attempt it.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 9:35 pm: Hi Dr. O.,Did they give any indication at the AAEP as to how long it might take after the initial injection of alcohol before some improvement is seen? Thanks, Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 6:33 am: No the summary above gives the best indication I have seen.DrO |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 7:52 am: Are you seeing no improvement, Mary? I keep hoping this is the ticket for Caymann.Hugs from Sparkles. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 8:54 am: Hi Fran,Today is his one month recheck at CSU. So I will let you know the results of his exam. Hooves crossed! Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 10:18 am: Good luck Mary. If you get a chance while speaking to your vet, will you pick his brain a little bit about how many of these he's done, and if he has ever attempted the procedure on the pastern joint? I live less than 90 minutes away from CSU, so I would definitely make the trek up north for that. Sorry to ask, I just hate to call the guy out of the blue and bother him if it's not something he does yet. Plus I'm sure some others would probably be interested in the kind of success he's had. Thanks! |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 11:08 am: Hi Lisa,I would be happy to inquire for you. Where in Colorado do you live? Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 2:47 pm: Thanks Mary. I grew up in Fort Collins, and went to CSU, but now I live about 10 miles SE of E-470 & Smoky Hill, so near SE Aurora. How about you? |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 8:12 am: Hi Lisa,We live in Wellington. I have not forgotten about your question. I will inquire about it later today. My horse is going to have surgery today to arthrodese his right hock. Not only was there no improvement at his checkup, he actually looked worse. So, they blocked out his DIT and TMT joints separately. At least half of the pain is coming from the DIT joint, which does not really make him a candidate for the alcohol fusion as we do not want to directly inject that joint with alcohol because of it's close proximity to the high motion hock joint. Previously, they had just blocked his TMT joint only. There was probably some diffusion to the DIT joint, but there can be no denying the response to the blocks yesterday. Not all of the pain is coming from the TMT joint alone. I will feel much better after the surgery is over, and will be happy to inquire about using the alcohol in the pastern. Mary |
| Member: fahren |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:28 am: HI Mary,I am sorry to hear that the alcohol did not work for you. I was excited about the possibilities! Please keep us updated as to how the fusion goes. I will be very curious to hear as that seems to be the future option I have also. First hand experience will be very educational. Good Luck. Zoe |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:51 am: oh Mary, this is not what I was hoping to hear either.. What exactly are you doing in this surgery..???On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them wth spots.. |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 10:36 am: Ditto Zoe and Ann. And in my case, as Dr. O said, the pastern joint is even tougher to do, so I'm not expecting Dr. Baxter to have any encouraging news on that front. Isn't it great to have one of the best vet schools in the country in your own backyard? Is it about $4000 for the surgery? |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 1:15 pm: That's disappointing to hear, Mary.... I'll be waiting to hear how Caymann comes out of the surgery.Sparkles & I send our best wishes. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 1:49 pm: Hello all,Thanks for your good wishes! Caymann is having his surgery as I type. To answer Ann's question, we are going to surgically fuse his right hock. Dr. Baxter will use the laser and drilling, as he has seen the best results with doing both. Zoe, I think the alcohol treatment still holds great promise. I was hoping it would work for us. However, once we determined that a large majority of the pain was coming from the DIT joint, he really no longer was a candidate for injecting alcohol into that joint. They are just not far along enough into using the alcohol to know whether injecting the DIT joint is a safe option. That scared me more than surgery because of the possibility of diffusion into the upper hock joint. And the horses in the experimental group were free of lameness at the time of injection, they did not have osteoarthritis/bone spavin in their joints. Lisa, I think you are probably right, I don't think they have even attempted to fuse the pastern joint this way yet. CSU is just getting started with a study doing the hocks I learned yesterday. But I am going to ask for you, don't worry! And yes, we are fortunate to have CSU so close! Dr. Baxter has done a fabulous job with a case that has had more complications and bizarre happenings than one could imagine. I would recommend him to anyone. Thanks for the good thoughts Fran. I will be very relieved once I know he has made it through the anesthesia recovery. We'll keep you posted. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 6:00 pm: Mary, concerning the injections, I would have thought this would have been way to early to assess the effectiveness. In the studies above they did not look for 4 months and a percentage took longer than that and at least 30% of the time there is a connection between the DIT and TMT joint. I am not trying to second guess the docs but trying to understand the decision.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 10:50 pm: Dr. O.,We discussed that at great length Dr. O., and one of the options we considered was to give this more time. The blocking on Tuesday showed us very clearly that the DIT joint is responsible for at least 50-60% of the pain, with the rest of the lameness finished off with the TMT block. The first time his hock was actually injected with steroid, only the TMT joint was injected. It did not improve him anywhere near the amount that it did when both joints were subsequently treated separately. Since injecting the DIT joint separately with the alcohol is not an option, we would have been relying on enough diffusion to fuse that joint as well. I am sure there is the possibility that given more time, that could have happened, but the vet was not very optimistic and neither was I. And I don't recall seeing in the study that the DIT joint was fused as well, I thought it was just the TMT joint. Secondly, we were all very surprised to see that he was even worse than he was prior to the alcohol injection. I think the thought was that he should have at least looked a little better since the alcohol is supposed to have some pain relieving effect. Lastly, we have lost a lot of time due to this problem. It started four years ago and for the past two years I have not been able to ride him except for very brief, fleeting moments. He is terribly out of shape and overweight. His back (which is very strong and rarely sore) is terribly sore. He is not moving around in turnout much, normally he gallops around, bucks, leaps and gets plenty of exercise. He is now a grade 3 lame. This, combined with the aforementioned factors, is why we decided to just do the surgery and be done with it. I did not want another year to go by and then end up having to do the surgery and lose even more time. That is the disadvantage to being part of an experimental treatment I suppose. We don't really have any guidelines to go on and there are alot of unknowns. I think if there had not been such dramatic improvement with the DIT block, I would have waited a while longer to see if the alcohol might work. At this point, the success rate for the surgery sounded a lot more promising to me than the smaller chance that enough alcohol would diffuse to the DIT joint. He has made it through the surgery/recovery phase just fine. They are pleased with his pain level and he is eating and bearing weight on that leg very well. They are telling me that if he is going to have a rough day, it will probably be tomorrow. I hope we have made the right decision. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 6:42 am: A very thorough discussion of the decision making process and you certainly should not second guess it, I think your logic impeccable. Thank you Mary.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 8:15 am: Hi Dr. O.,Thanks Dr. O. This has been quite an ordeal for my horse, and myself as well. While the thought of putting him under general anesthesia made me sick, the thought of staring at him in the pasture for the next ten to fifteen years and not being able to ride him made me sicker! And I was really not comfortable just leaving him in this much pain for the rest of his life as he is only eleven. After everything we have been through to get to this point I just couldn't give up. It's hard where there is something they can do-if he had this problem in his fetlock or stifle the decision would have been made for me, he would be done. But I am also very grateful that the problem that he had was fixable (hopefully!) He is a very special horse and the rest of him is in great shape. We'll keep you posted as to how he does. Mary |
| Member: fahren |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 8:59 am: Hi Mary,I hope your guy is doing well after the surgery. It would be very educational for me and others I am sure if you were willing to share your experiences and your horses progression after this surgery. Thanks you very much. Zoe |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 10:59 am: Hi Zoe,Thanks for the good wishes-Caymann is doing so well they were going to let him go home last night, and he just had the surgery on Wednesday! I decided to wait until today though because it was very cold and we had gale force winds that would have made hauling not a whole lot of fun, (or very safe). I would be happy to share our journey through rehab with everyone. Boy have I learned a lot over the past four years! Lisa I have not forgotten about your pastern question. I will be able to speak with Dr. Baxter next week and have it on my list. I am very encouraged by Caymann's pain level, he really does not appear to be that much worse off than he was prior to the surgery. Now he just needs to come home and his mood will improve dramatically. Mary |
| Member: fahren |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 5:03 pm: Thanks Mary,I look forward to updates and hope for a full recovery! Zoe |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 7:20 pm: Thank you Zoe.Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 10:50 pm: Dr. O.,There is some speculation on the part of the vets that the alcohol may have provided some benefit even though we decided to go ahead and do the surgery. Dr. Baxter thought that the cartilage felt kind of squishy (not a medical term I know), when he did the surgery. And Caymann seems awfully darn happy for a horse that just had the cartilage lasered and drilled out of a joint. So maybe we are a little further ahead because of it. I thought that was interesting anyways. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:46 am: Mary, I'm glad to hear he's feeling so well. For now he's totally confined and in a cast I presume? I guess it's a good time of year to have to take it easy, but with our warm up finally, I think all of the animals are getting giddy. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 11:00 am: Hi Lisa,Don't worry, I am still going to inquire about the pastern when I speak with Dr. Baxter this week  He is not in a cast, just a full limb bandage for now. The vet will come out today to change it and he can have just a hock bandage from then on. I too am delighted with his post operative state. I was really worried that he would suffer following the surgery, but that does not appear to be the case at all. I figured this was a good time of year to do it too. Now watch it will be beautiful for the next two months. HA-I doubt it! He will be raring to go next week when I can hand walk him. Great. Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 1:06 pm: Hi Mary, I'm relieved to Caymann came through the surgery so successfully. As you know, I can completely empathise with the fun and games of hand walking...so be careful...although I know you're an expert at it too!Continued good wishes for an excellent prognosis... |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 2:30 pm: Thanks Fran. I am relieved that I appear to have made the right decision for him. If this surgery is successful, we will have solved this problem permanantly. Nothing could make me happier You know how I love the hand walking, (hand skiing, hand rearing, hand leaping etc...)I am begging Dr. Baxter to allow him to start walking on the water treadmill as soon as possible. You know how much fun rehab can be. Are you getting in some good rides on the Queen? Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 4:15 pm: No, haven't been able to get in any rides in a few days, Mary. We've had record breaking cold, blizzard conditions, and I won't ride if it's below 10 degrees - somewhere I got the impression it's not healthy for the horse. Don't know if it's true or not, but I do know that under 10, it's impossible to keep my hands warm. Most I've been able to manage is getting over to the barn & checking on waters as the owner is out of town and I don't 100% trust her help. The horses have all been in (many live out 24/7 except in the most extreme conditions) and are all a bit nuts, including the Queen. I turned her out in the indoor arena twice yesterday while I checked on everybody and she went crazy...not what I wanted...I just wanted to give her a chance to move around a bit. I'll do the same tonight and hope that it warms up enough to at least get in a little walk/trot work tomorrow night (HA! She should be bouncing off the walls by then!)Is it spring yet? Hugs to Caymann & tell him to behave. |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 7:26 pm: Mary, I am a horse novice--I've only owned horses of my own for 5 months. There's a definite chance that I may end up doing arthrodesis surgery on Chief. Truly, any tidbits on Caymann's rehab will be helpful, even if it's a different joint.Watch out for that mud! I watched Chief walking down a little hill today, and his back legs just slid, but luckily no spill. Can you believe 65 degrees for Denver tomorrow? Although, I'm sure you're like us, and it will be more like 50 at your house. Not that I'm complaining! |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 7:49 pm: Hi Fran,I was reading that in the news today, my parents and brother live in Ohio. How cold is it where you are? I believe you are right about riding horses in very cold weather. I don't think it's good for their lungs. We might ask Dr. O about that. You are braver than I am, I don't ride if it's much below twenty five to thirty degrees. Unless I am indoors. Ooohhh that sounds fun, a Holsteiner bouncing off the walls! Good luck. We have had an unusual amount of snow this winter and are getting a bit tired of it as well. The vets are seeing more pastern joint fractures this winter than usual. Probably from all the snow and ice. Scary. Caymann can start swimming in two more weeks! We are counting the days. Hopefully that will help get some of the weight off and put some baseline conditioning on him. It helps his mental state too since he can't go out. He can be turned out four weeks from the date of surgery as the exercise will help promote fusion as well. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 8:27 pm: Hi Lisa,How old is your horse, what kind of horse is he, and does he have ringbone? What type of riding do you do? I know that the pastern joint has slightly more natural movement than the lower hock joints, so I think that is why they prefer to surgically fuse it?? Is it a front or hind pastern? Caymann is on stall rest and can begin walking on the water treadmill three weeks post surgery as long as the incisions have fully healed. I can start hand walking him next week when the sutures come out. That will depend on what the weather does of course. He can be turned out after four weeks, the exercise will help promote the fusion. I expect to speak with Dr. Baxter this week and will inquire about the alcohol. It sure is muddy up our way as well. Probably not a good time to turn out my horses anyways! It was fifty six degrees up here today. Felt like summer! And no wind-yay! Who do you use for your equine vet down there? Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 8:30 pm: One of the reasons that I'm driving thru blizzard conditions is to get Sparkles to move a bit in the arena as I am afraid that once everyone is turned out, they're going to go nuts. What your vet told you about the fractures confirms my fears, Yet it's so cold ("warmed up" to 6 degrees today, -20 with the wind chill) that I can't really work her hard enough to take the edge off. She won't just walk around on her own (stands with her eye to the crack in the arena doorway watching me putz around the aisleways, filling water and looking in at the others) and if I try to get her moving off by waving a lead rope, she starts careening around and I don't want that either. At least she's had a few good rolls.Fabulous that Caymann can start swimming in 2 weeks. How do they get him in the pool? Do they lower him in or does he walk down a ramp? I suppose that would worry me too, but he's done this before, hasn't he? Well, need to make a cup of hot cocoa and thaw out. Just shovelled the driveway and I'm a bit frozen. The barn owners AND my husband picked a great week to be away (grrr!) but if I'm not getting my excercise riding, I guess I'm getting it by hauling water and shovelling...neither are my work out of choice. Keep us posted. Fran |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 9:37 pm: Chief is a rescue horse, so I don't know much about him. He's a paint, but I think perhaps he's got some draft horse in him, because he is stout. He's probably about 17. He has bilateral high ringbone on the front legs. He's responded extremely well to naproxen the last 10 days, which is a relief, because bute really didn't do anything for him. So long as that provides relief, we won't think about surgery. And who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll fuse on their own--or maybe the alcohol technique will be perfected. We are very light trail riders. I would love to be able to ride Chief, but it's not important to me. I just want him pasture sound, and without pain.As for my vet, that was actually the subject of a post of mine. I'm going to get a new one, and got a bunch of recomendations from the forum folks. I think I'm leaning towards Squires, but off-hand can't think of the particular vet's name. I wish I was closer to CSU. I thought you were kidding when you first mentioned the water treadmill. That's pretty cool that they use such good rehab techniques. I can't believe how quickly he can be turned out. 56 is nice. I think we were only about 45. Crazy thing is, it was 60 about 10 miles away from my house. It's so frustrating to be in the car, and slowly watch the thermometer DrOp the closer you get to home. Oh well, it stills feels heavenly. Sorry Fran, I don't mean to rub it in, but we definitely know what it's like to have the crummy weather. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 9:39 pm: Hi Fran,Yes, I've definitely become a bit more selective about the conditions I turn my horses out in. Fortunately, we have a lot of pasture so there is quite a bit of grass, but it has still been icy in spots this winter. It went down to zero in Colorado just a few days ago so I feel your pain. But whenever I go back to Ohio now, the cold feels more bone chilling to me due to the humidity. It is so dry out here, the cold/heat isn't quite as miserable. Plus the sun is usually out so that helps too. Caymann walks on a water treadmill so he just walks up a ramp to get into it, much like loading into the trailer. He would never agree to getting into an actual pool where his hooves weren't touching a solid surface. He doesn't even really like baths and looks suspiciously at puddles etc. Good thing I didn't get him to be an event horse. Oh the visual on that is so funny-do you think we would get time faults as the giant barreled Holsteiner cantered around the course? To be fair he is an excellent jumper and loves it, but definitely not built for speed. Stay warm and keep the Queen safe. It's so hard when the weather is bad to get them exercised. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 9:50 pm: Hi Lisa,Well I can sure understand where you are coming from. Caymann was in so much discomfort because of his hock that he wasn't really even running around in the pasture anymore. Normally he gallops around, rears, bucks, leaps and just generally parties down. His back was terribly sore. Bute did not make him comfortable anymore either. In fact, by the time this problem was diagnosed, Bute did not make him sound. He is only eleven, so leaving him in that condition was not really an option for me. Even if the fusion is not successful, I think we will at least have made him comfortable enough to have a good quality of life. If he can continue on as a performance horse, I will feel like I have won the lottery. The water treadmill is not owned by CSU. There is a local dressage trainer who also runs a rehab facility in Fort Collins. It has been a godsend for Caymann during a couple of his rehab stints. I haul him over there and then bring him home. CSU does send some of their post-surgery horses there as they can start getting some exercise very soon after surgery. Where did you rescue Chief from? That's really cool-how old was he when you got him? I was hoping that the alcohol procedure would be the answer for us. Since we have been battling this for four years, and for the other reasons discussed in my post, I didn't feel as though we could wait much longer. If you can keep Chief comfortable with the naproxen, maybe you can buy yourself some time until they know more about the alcohol. It's probably going to be awhile though before they have done enough real life examples to know for sure. Does your new vet think that you should proceed with the surgery? Colorado weather is so wacky. On Thursday when that snow storm came through, I got caught in it on my way home from Colorado Springs. Once I hit Berthoud on I-25, it went from a whiteout to clear as day and no snow at all! It was nuts. And yes, even forty degrees feels like summer after the past month or so. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:02 pm: Lisa,Where is the post re: your vet? Mary |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:40 pm: Mary.. you must take a photo of the water treadmill.. I have never heard of one..thanks.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:41 pm: Hi Ann,If you go to the website www.fernovetsystems.com, I believe that will give you some idea of what it looks like. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:50 pm: We've had Chief since mid-November. We knew he had ringbone when we got him--he had a very discernible limp even at a walk. We just fell in love with him, and just figured we'd give him the best life we can, until he needs to be put down because he's in too much pain. At the time, we thought it would be sooner rather than later, but now I'm hoping he may have years, if not a decade or more.He came from Ruby Ranch Horse Rescue, out of Ramah. I really like Pat & Roger. They have some really nice horses down there, and do a great job of taking care of the animals. Their adoption fees are really low too. They actually waived an adoption fee on Chief, because not too many people want to adopt a lame horse. I haven't even gotten another vet out here yet. My old vet, I can hardly even call "old" because he was only here once, and another guy from his clinic was here once for just a vaccination. Problem is, I called him and said I have a horse that was diagnosed with high ringbone, just by palpation by the rescue's vet, and that I wanted him to come and do a lameness check, nerve blocks, and x-rays, and the like, to really get a good grasp of what the problem is. After two minutes of just watching and feeling, he declared it was high ringbone, and told me to give 1 to 2 grams of bute a day. He said there are injections that people use, but he didn't think he could even get it into the joint. He did mention surgery, just saying it's an option, but that it is major surgery. If I had not forced him to stay longer, I swear he would have been out of here in about 5 minutes. As an afterthought, he said maybe he's got slight navicular changes in a rear hoof. I don't think he even touched that leg. I should have forced the issue, and gotten him to do the nerve blocks and all, but I was sick. So basically, I still have to get a vet out here to do a lameness check. So, I just have a lot of questions still, and want a vet that won't leave me feeling p..... off that he didn't do what I asked him to. I'm obviously putting the cart before the horse. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:56 pm: WOW, amazing.. thanks.. I can't image this is good for tendon repair .. Dr. O..??On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 11:15 pm: Hi Lisa,Well that sounds like a frustrating experience. I guess it would be nice to have someone who at least appears to be interested???? Have you found someone to come out and do a lameness exam? Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 11:20 pm: Hi Ann,I don't know what Dr. O will say but Caymann walked on the water treadmill when he had the soreness in his right hind origin of suspensory . They can actually make the horse bouyant in the treadmill so that they aren't bearing weight. I know they actually rehab a lot of horses with tendon/ligament injuries this way, for some (including my horse), it is a much safer rehab than hand walking because it can be more controlled. As the horse progresses through the rehab program, they gradually increase their weight bearing status as the vet monitors their progress. It really was godsend to us last February/March when I couldn't have handwalked him safely outside due to the weather. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 6:02 am: This is a good system anywhere that decreased weight bearing during exercise is beneficial. Certainly rehabbing tendons would be one and would allow earlier exericise out of the stall.DrO |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 8:05 am: That water tread mill IS amazing. I hadn't heard of this either and was picturing a pool that the horse had to be lowered into. You're fortunate, Mary, to have access to one of these. I can't imagine they're too common. I'd love to see a picture of Caymann during his workout - you'll have to take one for us. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 10:03 am: Now to find one locally? I have never heard of them , Like Fran I thought you walked your horse down a ramp to the pool..Mary may I ask is this expensive? Do you haul your horse over several times a week? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 10:05 am: Fran,I got a new digital camera for Christmas, and would be happy to take a picture for you. Yes-we are fortunate to have access to this, there is one down in the Denver/Parker area as well. They are not very common, I'm sure they are not very cheap either! I tell Caymann that I am taking him to his swimming class, just like parents take their kids. Mary Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 10:39 am: Hey Mary, I'd attach a link to my post, but it would take me too long to figure out how to do it. It's under the Members tab, then lounge, then regional inquiries, for a vet rec near Parker. In retrospect, I think maybe I'm being harsh with my vet. He did tell me how to trim his hooves, and to not give him access to all 70 acres, so he doesn't feel forced to move long distances by his pasture mate. Maybe he was just trying to save me money.I'm glad to hear there's some sophisticated equipment down in this area. I've heard that Parker has more horses per capita than anywhere else in the country. That would probably explain the equipment. Since Chief is doing well for now, I think I'll try to wait for the snow and mud to clear. Plus, I think there's a little bit of "what I don't know won't hurt me" going on. I'll be really bummed if he's also got low ringbone or something else that isn't really treatable. I'm also looking forward to seeing Caymann on the treadmill. I don't even know what a holsteiner looks like. I just envision a horse that looks like a holstein cow. I guess that would be a black and white paint. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 11:11 am: Hi Lisa,Well, Caymann does kind of look like a cow at the moment since he is about two hundred pounds overweight! Typically, the Holsteiner is a bay horse standing between 16hh-17hh. As Fran can attest, there are some gray Holsteiners, and a few Chesnuts, but the majority are bay. They are known mostly for their jumping abilities, and have been very successfully bred to do so. They tend to be exceptional athletes, even amongst warmbloods. I know I can vouch for Caymann's bucking abilities! To one that knows the breed, they have a distinct look that enables one to identify a Holsteiner out of a crowd. They are not the horse for everyone, their temperaments vary widely from horse to horse and they have what I call the "Holsteiner sense of humor." Most of the time, I think Caymann is funny. I suppose some people would want to wring his neck! I'll get a picture of him up on this site as soon as I can. The water treadmill is at a barn down in the Parker Area, I think it's Crooked Willow. I believe the statistics re: the Parker area. There are a lot of horses down there! I can relate to the what I don't know won't hurt me. There have been times throughout our ordeal that I almost didn't want to know!!!! The important thing is that you have a vet that you feel comfortable with. Glad to hear that Chief is doing well now. Looks like another beautiful Colorado day. Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 12:55 pm: Ahh, if I had a dollar for every time someone said to me "I thought a Holsteiner is a cow..." . Lisa, click on my name to the left of any one of my posts and you will see my "cow". She's a bit atypical as she's more solidly built than the modern type and she is a talented dressage horse despite the talent most Holsteiners exhibit for jumping. When I bought her I was told not to jump her as she get's a "bit nuts" over fences...I've never had the courage to try.
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| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 1:27 pm: Hi Fran,Ditto re: isn't the Holsteiner a cow comment. That coupled with the fact that they are one of the less common types of warmbloods, does create some discussion. Certainly there have been some very talented Holsteiner Dressage horses, Granat comes to mind. Some of the most successful Holsteiner dressage horses came from jumping lines. The thought being that they tend to have very good canters (for jumping), very powerful hind ends and good freedom of the shoulder. I'm sure that the same thing that is a benefit in jumping, is also helpful in Dressage. Where I think the Holsteiner sometimes gets into trouble with Dressage is more their mental approach. I do lots of other stuff with Caymann too, trail ride, light jumping, cavaletti. I think because their instinct to jump is so strong, they sometimes do not understand the point of Dressage. Caymann has the gaits for Dressage, and his temperament is such that he will do whatever I ask of him (well, most of the time). But I love jumping too so we try to keep variety for both our sanity. Jumping is just a different kind of athleticism than dressage. When I first got Caymann, he got away from me on the lounge line and jumped a gate that was well over five feet from a virtual standstill. He was galloping across the field, and when he realized there was a gate in his way, stopped and sailed over it like a pro. I came very close to contacting the breeder and asking for the amateur owner horse that I thought I had purchased. Not really interested in finding out what Sparkle's previous owner means by " a bit nuts........?" Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 3:44 pm: Sounds like a neat, well-rounded breed. I like a sense of humor in an animal, but of course that depends on what they're doing. Sparkle is a pretty girl. She definitely does not look like a holstein cow! You want to see fat, you should see my Angus cow, she looks like she's carrying twins, and I don't even think she's pregnant. Just being on a horse is excitement enough for me. I couldn't imagine jumping with one. That takes guts. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 6:12 pm: Lisa,They can be for those that love/understand them. Some people would find them frustrating, I think. And of course it just depends on the individual horse. Caymann definitely has his own ideas about things, but he has a very good temperament. It's the only reason I can ride him as he got much bigger than the breeder said he would. Caymann thinks that Sparkles is beautiful Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 7:57 pm: Just how big is Caymann? You must have gotten him when he was really young? When I was at Ruby Ranch, I met a foal and absolutely just love him. His mom wandered off, and he just cuddled up with me. I didn't want to leave him. He's probably just getting weaned now, and should therefore be up for adoption. If I had any idea how to train a horse, I'd adopt him in an instant. There's just something about babies, no matter what the species. |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 8:06 pm: Wonderfully educational post. I love learning about ortho cases. Mary so glad Cayman is doing well and good luck to others who are in similar situations. Hopefully there will be continued strides being made on the part of the alcohol injections if indeed they have the potential to be effective. Please keep us updated Mary and anyone else who elects to use this treatment, regardless if surgery is the ultimate outcome.Take care! |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 8:16 pm: Hi Lisa,I totally agree, foals are captivating! I started Caymann as a four year old, he was a bit of a handful! I have never attempted to purchase a foal and bring him/her along. I know how much work starting a green young horse is, I can only imagine how much work is involved getting a foal to that point. Caymann is about 16'3 hands high and even when he is very fit, weighs about 1350 pounds. And that is him in his lean form. He is kind of a throwback to the more old fashioned type of warmblood, much like Fran's mare. He has a HUGE barrel and just big joints. He is big even compared to many warmbloods. He is bigger than his father and many warmblood stallions that I know. I think he grew too big too quickly and that may have been part of his problem. He had to have OCD surgery shortly after I purchased him. We caught it early though, and he has fully recovered from that. I will eventually get a picture of him put up here. Right now he weighs 1560 pounds, not good. I have removed all grain from his diet much to his dismay. We have to get some weight off of him. It will only help his rehab. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 8:21 pm: Hi Corrine,I think that the alcohol holds great potential for the future, and possibly even now with some of the horses that are just starting the treatment. I think they are still a little too early in the process to know for sure. And the horses that they did the initial study on weren't lame. One would think that if you can fuse a non-arthritic joint with that method, that you can fuse an arthritic one too. I was not comfortable at all with the idea of injecting the DIT joint with alcohol and neither was my vet. So, because so much of Caymann's pain was coming from that joint, he was no longer a candidate for that method. Plus we were four years into this, we just can't wait any longer for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I sure hope that it is the answer someday for alot of horses-think of all the horses that could be helped!We'll keep you posted. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 9:17 pm: Holy cow, that's a big horse! I bet you'll get him back into shape in no time. Is he confined to a small stall for now? I bet the hand walking can be a lot of fun. I have a dog that has actually had ACL surgery on both hind legs. He's 50 pounds, and literally dragged me out of the animal hospital, despite a huge bandage the entire length of the leg, and a tile floor. How long does rehab generally take? |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 10:02 pm: Hi Lisa,Yes-he is confined to a small area. He has a stall with a run attached. I have shortened the run so he can at least step outside to eat and turn around. It makes a huge difference in his mood. The outside area is about the same size as his 12X12 stall. In four weeks he can go out into one of our smaller pastures/turnouts. I am waiting to hear back from the vet as to when he might have access to his full run. I am hoping that might occur before the four weeks is up. He can start swimming three weeks from the surgery date if the incisions have healed up properly. We have been through the handwalking thing before. During the winter it can be quite a challenge. The water treadmill is a godsend, he can be exercised without the risk of him getting away from me and tearing around. How is your dog doing? It's amazing what some of these animals physically feel like doing after a major surgery. We won't know how long it is going to take for the joints to actually fuse. At a minimum, probably a few months. If he progresses nicely, we can begin some light work three months after the surgery. We'll just have to see how it goes. I'm not going to ride him if he is really hurting. Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 8:09 am: 1,560 pounds!?!?! Holy Cow, Mary, Caymann HAS gotten a tad bit on the chubby side...better wait a while to take those pix of him or he might be very embarrassed and mad at having his picture posted when he's not looking his best....altho Sparkles thinks he's handsome even if he is a bit pudgy.
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| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 9:47 am: Fran,Oh, no I was not exaggerating when I said he is overweight! I'll pass on the compliment from Sparkles though, that will make him feel better. And you're right-probably should wait until he is a little sleeker before posting pictures of him. He is quite image conscious. Is it any warmer up your way today? Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 11:54 am: So I take it Caymann and Sparkles met at a competition? Is Caymann still feeling chipper?ACL surgery for dogs is great. He went from being unable to use a leg at all, to dragging me the next day. He was feeling so much better, that the first leg actually had to be redone, because he was just too active. The second leg we got to heal after just one surgery. I think we did the last one 5 or 6 years ago. He was doing great until this year. He's turning 11, and showing signs of arthritis in the back legs. I've got him on a heavy duty dose of joint supplement. I wish I would have been told to use it after the surgeries--maybe he wouldn't have the arthritis now. I have to give him an occasional K-9 Aspirin, and I'm expecting to have him on Rimadyl eventually. I also have a slightly lame cat. He somehow broke his leg a couple of years ago, and had to have surgery to fuse it. Lameness runs in the family. I should have been a vet. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 12:11 pm: Hi Lisa,I laughed out loud at your comment re: being a vet. Me too! I feel like I have been through vet school these past four years. Probably would have been cheaper to enroll. Lameness runs in my animal family as well. My quarter horse that I bought to be companion to Caymann receives navicular bursa injections for his front feet. I knew he had navicular disease when I purchased him. I wasn't planning on riding him, but thought he would be a great companion for Caymann. Plus, I thought I could help him, poor guy, his previous owners never addressed his foot problem. My female dalmatian who is no longer alive had two hip replacements and back surgery. What kind of dog do you have? Sparkles and Caymann met over the internet. Sparkles lives in Michigan so, no they have never met in person. It has been a good internet relationship though, not like some of the scary stories you hear about. Oh my goodness-we have really gotten off the subject of alcohol arthrodesis, haven't we? Mary P.S. Master Caymann continues to do very well-we reduce his Bute to 1 gram a day starting today, so hooves crossed, he will continue to feel good. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 12:52 pm: Lisa, you could say that the relationship between Sparkles & Caymann is a long distance love affair! |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 4:12 pm: Ok Fran and Mary, I'd make fun of you guys if I wasn't a dork myself. I'm glad they have found love.Continuing way off the subject, my expensive dog is Marley, a Hungarian Puli mix. They're a sheepdog, usually black, and get dreadlocks down to the ground if you let them. Living in the country, I get him shaved once a year, and even as it is, he brings in snowballs, weeds, stickers.... Yea, Mary I'd say you can definitely relate to expensive, lame animals. Your dalmation had some serious surgeries. Hopefully I can get one of my boys to go to vet school. Or even better, get both to go, and have one specialize in large animals, and the other in small animals. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 5:37 pm: Lisa,Sounds like a great plan. Hopefully your boys will agree. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:57 pm: Hey Mary, how's the boy doing? It's been almost 2 weeks since the surgery right? |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 3:50 pm: Hi Lisa,I was just going to email you today to let you know that I have not yet spoken with Dr. Baxter. I WILL ask about the pastern, and may just email him because I know he is busy. Caymann continues to do better than expected following the surgery. Thank you for asking. He is now off Bute completely and his comfort level does not appear to have decreased. He will get his sutures removed tomorrow and we can start handwalking. Yeah right in the 15 degree weather. But he can start walking on the water treadmill next week. He is anxious to go out and tired of being locked up. Is it as cold down your way? We are getting some light flurries as well. I will email Dr. Baxter right now re: your question. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:01 am: Hi Lisa,I did hear back from Dr.Baxter re: using alcohol to fuse the pastern. He said that it has been discussed, but he does not know if it has been done clinically. At CSU, they feel that surgery is currently the best way to fuse the pastern. Hope that helps. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:37 am: Mary,Thanks for asking him for me. I'm disappointed, but it's as expected. I'm still hoping he'll just fuse on his own--I'm an optimist. I'm glad Caymann is doing so well. Hopefully competition is in his future. I'm looking forward to seeing some pics next week of him on the treadmill. Well, you won't be handwalking today, but it sounds like it will be beautiful soon. This weather pattern is why I like Colorado; mostly beautiful, sunny 50 degree days, with a dose of snow and cold once in awhile to make you appreciate the nice days. Another couple 40 degree days and we may actually be rid of most of the snow--except for the huge piles along the driveway, and the several feet in the ravine. I don't know about you, but after hearing about the snow in upstate New York, I don't feel quite so bad about what we had. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 11:18 am: Hi Lisa,I would highly recommend Dr. Baxter if you do want to look into the idea of surgery. I was hoping Caymann would fuse on his own too, but he never does anything by the book. And since that can be so variable and we have lost so much time anyways, I did not want to waste any more time. I too love Colorado weather except for the dreadful wind we can get up here. But our little snow storms seem like nothing compared to what they are dealing with in New York. Can you imagine? Now we will probably just go back to the muddy mess that was starting to develop prior to this latest cold snap. Mary |
| Member: fahren |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 6:28 pm: Glad Caymann is doing so well.Lots of snow, the most we have had all winter is 6". Now there are drifts outside my door upto 3' and I cant even open it. Snow is coming through every nook and cranny in the barn. Some of my stalls with doors open to the outside have lots of blown in snow as well. All the horses are pulled in from outside tonight! I am in VT. Zoe |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 7:31 pm: Hi Zoe,I saw on the news that the Northeast was getting hammered with snow storms. My parents and brother live in Ohio, and my mom said they got about a foot of snow in the Cleveland area. I know what your barn must look like. When we had our blizzard here in December, the wind was blowing so badly, both of my horse's stalls were covered in snow, and that was with the barn door closed and their stall doors to their outside runs closed. It was nuts. I'm sure your horses appreciated being snug inside tonight. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Hey Mary, how'd things go on the treadmill this week? We're still waiting for pictures! Is it finally drying up north? We definitely have mud still, but things are firming up here and there, just in time for more snow. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 9:15 pm: Hi Lisa,Sorry for the delayed response. I have been sick and this weather isn't helping! The wind is STILL blowing up at our place tonight. You would think it would get tired and quit. How was your weather down there today? Caymann did great on the treadmill last week. We went three times. I will definitely take some pictures this week. Things had started to dry up here and we didn't get any snow this time, just terrible wind. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 6:18 pm: Hi Mary, I hope you're feeling better. I finally discovered Airborne and Emergen-C a few weeks ago, and I swear they help me keep the colds at bay.We were some of the lucky folks that got the blizzard. It's amazing the way 6 inches of snow can amount to 3 and 4 foot snow drifts. I feel for you, with the wind. When we first moved out east, we asked our neighbors if the wind ever stops. But after inquiring about getting a windmill, and finding out we are only in a "marginal" wind area, we quit complaining! I guess it's not really that windy, there's just nothing to stop it. I bet Caymann is feeling like a new man, being able to burn off so much pent up energy, not to mention getting his old bod back. Doesn't he get to be out in a small turnout this upcoming week? |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 10:38 pm: Hi Lisa,Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. Caymann is now able to be turned out and I am long lining him every day for twenty minutes. We will gradually build up to an hour a day hopefully. Dr. Baxter will look at him on April 3rd, so I will have more information then. I am holding off on the water treadmill for the moment as he really needs to be worked on "land" to help promote the fusion. But when he does return to the treadmill, maybe just once a week for conditioning, I will be sure to get a picture of him. How is your horse doing? Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 10:42 pm: Hi Lisa,Reading back through your posts I realized I never answered your question about the cost of the surgery for one hock. The total for Caymann's surgery was a little over three thousand dollars. I am guessing that pastern arthrodesis might be a little more costly, but don't know for sure. Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 11:26 pm: Hi Mary,I bet the boy is a happy camper. It's nearly spring time, and he gets to be outside and act like a horse--without pain no less. $4000 is probably a pretty good estimate on my vets part. Chief is definitely doing better by virtue of the ground not freezing very often. I'm still giving him Naproxen every couple of days. Now that the snow and mud are gone, I'm ready to get a new vet out here and really pinpoint the problem(s). I'm nervous about it, but at least I'll finally know how to best proceed. I just turn into a pathetic weeping thing whenever I get bad news about a pet. It's so embarrassing! |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 5:15 pm: Lisa,Oh he's happy to be out eating the fresh, spring grass I tell ya! Since we are also working on weight reduction, I rotate him from the nice green pasture, to what I call the "safety" pasture on days that I go to work. That is more of a dry lot and I give them hay to eat. He really does OK on the pasture until the alfalfa starts showing up. Then I pull him off the pasture and put him in the dry pasture full time. He is an incredibly easy keeper. I think that $4,000 is probably a pretty good estimate. Let us know what the new vet says. And believe me, I totally understand about the weeping! I have just gotten so used to hearing bad news for the past seven years, I have grown accustomed to it. Now THAT'S pathetic. I am just grateful that Cayamnn's problem could be fixed (if the fusion is successful). Enjoy our fabulous weather. I am off to long line my giant Holsteiner. Mary |
| Member: ngossage |
Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 9:11 am: Hi, Mary. Just wondering how Caymann was doing post surgery? What did the vet say when he was out in April?Thanks for the update & hope you're both doing well, Nicole |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 10:58 am: Hi Nicole,Caymann is happily cruising around the pasture on one gram of bute a day to keep him comfortable. He was looking pretty sore when the vet saw him in April so we started him on the bute so that he would feel better and move around more. He will be on the bute for one more week and then I will take him off of it and see how he looks. Thanks for asking and we will post an update mid-May after we look at him off drugs Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 1:02 pm: Thanks for the update Mary.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 3:07 pm: No problem Dr. O, we will definitely keep you updated as things progress. So far there has been nothing to report so that is why I have been quiet. But the surgeon is encouraged that he looks better on one gram of bute a day post surgery than he ever looked on two grams a day before he had the surgery. He warned me that this could take up to a year, and said that the soonest he has seen a horse sound following this type of surgery is four to six months. We are only three months post surgery, it just feels like forever!!!! And he had both the TMT and DIT joints operated on, so it may take more time.Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 11:15 pm: Hi Dr. O.,I meant to ask you about your experience with surgical arthrodesis of both the TMT and DIT joints. From cases that you have seen, how long does it typically take for fusion to occur if it is going to? Are the horses pretty sore throughout the process? Thanks, Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 10:50 pm: Also Dr. O, in addition to my above questions: how long can you safely keep a 1450 pound horse on two grams of bute a day?? Caymann tolerates Bute very well, and sometimes one gram a day isn't enough to make him comfortable. This hock fusion process isn't always pretty.Thanks, Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:45 am: Generally fusion occurs in less than 6 months and yes they are pretty sore, whether chemical or mechanical (drilling) is used. We don't have an answer to how long your horse can safely be kept on bute but the article on bute gives you some guidelines, suggestions for long term use and examples.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 12:14 pm: Thanks Dr. O., I will read over the article. One last question-do the horses typically stay sore right up until the fusion actually occurs, or is it more of a gradual improvement?Thanks, Mary |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:17 pm: Hey Mary,It sounds like you're a little bummed out about how long it's taking to get Caymann back to 100%. But as you said, he's doing far better now than he was before the surgery. And at least he's not expected to be fused and pain free just yet. If nothing else, I'm sure he's just tickled about the weather. I'm looking out west right now, and the high mountains are covered in snow, and the pasture is green as can be. Don't you just love Colorado? I think it was 2 weeks ago, we got the snow, that you guys up north avoided. We ended up with 1 foot, and a 36 hour power outage. Of course it was in the 80s just a few days later. I think I would get bored living somewhere that doesn't have schizophrenic weather. My boy Chief is doing so well right now--apparently frozen winter ground is his worst enemy. He barely has any lameness now, with only an occasional bute or naproxen. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:21 pm: Hi Lisa,Great to hear that Chief is doing so well! Are you riding at all? And yes-normal weather would definitely be boring. It's days like today that remind me why I love living in Colorado. I know it has only been three months since Caymann's surgery. If feels like a thousand years! And we have been battling this problem for four years prior to resorting to the surgery so that makes it feel longer as well. However, it is not the time that bothers me so much as seeing him so sore. I hate to see him so painful, but the bute does wonders for him as well as me!!!! Thanks for the encouragement-we'll keep you posted. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:22 pm: Hi Dr. O,I posted one last question for you above Lisa's post. Thanks. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:03 am: Improvement happens gradually.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:19 am: Thanks Dr. O. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 1:40 am: Dr. O.,Have you ever seen it take longer than six months for the TMT and DIT joints to fuse following surgery? I have been told that in some cases it can take up to a year. Thanks, Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:38 am: Here is a pretty good review of the time till soundness in 20 cases:DrO Equine Vet J. 1982 Apr;14(2):117-21. Surgical arthrodesis for the treatment of bone spavin in 20 horses. Edwards GB. During a 3 year period 20 horses with bone spavin were treated by surgical arthrodesis of the affected joints. The horses chosen for surgery were those with osteoarthritis, but with little or no evidence of periostitis. Whenever possible they were examined periodically during the postoperative period to evaluate the lameness and to assess the progress of ankylosis by radiography. Three of the horses were still lame 12 months later. The remainder returned to normal work, although one subsequently developed spavin in the other hock and was destroyed. The earliest return to soundness was 3 1/2 months, the longest 10 months (average 5 1/2 months). |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:16 am: Hi Dr. O.,Thanks for the article-that gives me a good frame of reference. Mary |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 18, 2007 - 7:26 pm: Mary how is your horse doing..??On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 18, 2007 - 9:22 pm: Hi Ann,Oh my goodness, I completely forgot to update everyone re: Caymann's progress. It has been quite a nine months. Caymann had prolonged postoperative pain following the surgery. He was off and on Bute, but mostly on for seven to eight months after the surgery. I was unable to do any work with him as he was even lame at the walk. So I think that slowed our progress a bit. After a brief period of panic on both the surgeon's and my part, I was finally able to start doing some light work with him, but long lining only mostly at the walk with a little bit of trot thrown in as tolerated. He really started to make progress once I could start exercising him. We finally got him over the initial hump about two months ago, he improved two lameness grades and can now be long lined at the walk soundly with no Bute every day. He is now making more rapid progress, the Distal Intertarsal Joint is almost fused, the Tarsometatarsal joint is lagging behind a bit but much improved. We injected the Tarsometatarsal joint with the alcohol again to see if it would help move things along. We tried it before, but sort of interrupted the process with the surgery once we determined that half of the lameness was coming from the DIT joint. He is looking better every day, and we still have two more months until the full year is up. They are finding at CSU that it seems to be taking many of these hock surgeries a full year to totally fuse, and that one joint appears to fuse faster than the other. So at least Caymann is doing something normal there. It will be interesting to see if the alcohol helps him along. We have had a rough go, but I think we are going to win the battle. Thanks for your concern and reminding me to post our progress! Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 3:56 pm: Hi Dr. O,Just wanted to update you re: the outcome of Caymann's hock arthrodesis. As usual, we have a most unusual situation. One year and almost three months following his surgery, he is finally sound. The DIT joint, which has been the biggest source of his pain is fused. However, the TMT joint never did start to fuse, and continues to look as good as it did prior to the surgery! He never had disease radiographically in the TMT joint. So it appears that he will be sound with just the DIT joint fused, and occasional injections in the TMT, if they will be needed at all. Have you ever heard of one joint fusing following surgery but not the other, Dr. O.? My field vet says the joint doesn't even look like it really got drilled, there is no bony reaction etc. From the blocking done prior to his surgery, we do know that the DIT joint was the major source of his lameness. Anyway, I am so happy that he is sound and this process is over. He was so painful throughout the fusing process. He went to a grade four lame following the surgery. Mary |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 7:31 pm: Mary, So glad to hear that Caymann is finally sound! It's been a long, long haul for you. I hope that he stays sound...KNOCK ON WOOD!!!. Will you now slowly bring him back in to training? |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 8:41 pm: Hi Fran,Thanks-it has been a long, difficult and uncertain road as you well know. The vet thinks I should give him about six more weeks of turnout only just to make sure that joint is really solidly fused together. Then I will SLOWLY bring him back to work-he's been out of work for almost a year and half so we will have to be careful. We'll just start walking and go from there. I am not too worried about any future problems as this has been the primary source of his lameness problems for the past several years. But in the meantime-I am riding Jake and we are having a blast. How is Miss Sparkles? Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 - 10:05 pm: Hi Dr. O.,I posted a question above Fran's post re: my horse's hock fusion. Just thought it might get lost with the ensuing comments. Thanks, Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 6:35 am: Hello Mary,Delighted to hear things finally worked out Mary it is a wonderful story of how perseverance was required to get a successful outcome. Following drilling of the TMt joint I would suggest that even though radiographically it does not look fused I'll bet if the joint could be examined you would find it fused. There is just enough cartilaginous tissue to give the appearance of not fused. It is just hard to imagine that a joint with that much trauma in not either very arthritic or arthrodesed. Then again I have not seen the radiographs...it just occurred to me, could the alcohol have deinnervated the joint so that there is no pain in the joint? DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 9:17 am: Hi Dr. O.,Anything is possible at this point, however, he did have some pain there following surgery, and responded to a recent injection of the TMT joint. That injection has lasted almost two months so far. So I guess it is possible that there is enough fusion that he can be maintained on injections? My field vet says it looks like a very healthy TMT joint. There is just no radiographic evidence of fusion whatsoever. He never got any immediate pain relief from the alchohol injection but who knows. Is it possible that the inflammation in the DIT joint was causing the pain/inflammation in the TMT joint since there were never any rad changes in the TMT joint prior to surgery? It is very hard for me to believe that the TMT joint could survive all of our attempts to fuse it but who knows. I am just so happy for my horse, he was so painful we weren't sure he was ever going to fuse. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 6:12 pm: If it is true you describe the Superman of joints.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 8:58 pm: Dr.O.,I love it-the Superman of joints! I think we are all kind of at a loss to explain why it still looks so good radiographically. I think at this point we just have to go with the fact that the majority of his lameness has resolved with the fusing of the DIT joint and hope that if there is any pain in the future in the TMT, it can be managed with injections. Mary |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 - 10:42 pm: Dr. O.,I forgot to ask if you have seen any cases where the alcohol has successfully fused the TMT joint. I know of several people that have tried it, but are not convinced that it actually fuses the joint. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 6:21 am: Mary, no I do not know any horses personally but the evidence in the research presented above is pretty tight since all the joints were examined closely on post mortem.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 9:16 am: Dr. O.,I know, it's difficult to argue with those kinds of results. But I would not expect a fused joint to respond to a joint injection, would you? And you would think there would be some radiographic evidence of fusion. Perhaps the alcohol did not make it into the joint-it was done done using the contrast study. Who knows. Or maybe the TMT joint does wear a Superman cape. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 9:51 pm: Mary your horse is currently sound, I don't see what joint injection response you are talking about. As to radiographs, yes I would expect changes, but then again this is kind of new. Certainly errors in procedure could confound the picture...DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 10:09 pm: Dr. O.,We injected his TMT joint almost two months ago to see if that would improve his lameness. At that point he was still a grade three lame. It did improve his lameness almost a grade. The fusing of the DIT joint finished off the rest of the lameness. Mary |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 6:22 am: So he is fused as did the DIT? The one grade improvment incidental to the injection? Some lidocaine diffused into the DIT joint? I still don't see how this is counter to the idea this joint may have fused but may not appear that way radiographically.DrO |
| Member: caymie |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 8:11 am: Dr. O.,We injected his TMT joint with steroid/HA. That is what improved his lameness. Prior to the surgery, he always had to have the DIT joint injected separately (with steroid/HA) in order to really improve the pain coming from that joint. I just would expect there to be pain coming from the TMT joint if it were fused, and since that TMT joint looks just the same as it did prior to the surgery and alchohol injections, I find it hard to believe that it is fused at all as does my field vet. Mary |
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