This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM »
  Discussion on Setback and questions
Author Message
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 8:46 am:

My daughter's 7 yr old mare with EPSM is once again having problems.

Brief history: Has had episodes of tying up since age two, diagnosed with EPSM by muscle biopsy 3 years ago, though we had suspected it for some time. Tried alfalfa pellets with oil, but she was much worse when on pellets, plus the oil is "messy" and the barn owner wasn't enthusiastic about using it. Went to straight grass and alfalfa hay, no grain at all, but the barn owner gives all horses 2 cups of wheat bran daily (she's never explained why - habit, maybe?). The mare was doing pretty well on that diet but still had episodes of tying up, usually when she and my daughter got into pissing contests over something - her episodes definitely seem to have an emotional factor. Added powdered fat supplement last year, which seemed to help, but then she stopped eating it.
She has also been getting vitamin E and selenium supplements, but again doesn't seem to be eating any of it.

Two weeks ago my daughter and the barn owner decided to start the mare on Nutrena LiteBalance pellets because they have vitamin E and selenium in them. (Nobody asked me! I'd have said no!) So now she gets alfalfa hay morning and night, 2 cups of bran, two scoops of powdered fat, vitamin E and selenium supplement, and 4 cups of Nutrena. Of course, she loves the Nutrena and eats that, but still leaves the bran, fat, and other supplements.

Saturday my daughter turned the mare loose in the arena to run around and burn off some energy, and she tied up badly because she got so excited. She has been very stiff since then. Last night my daughter rode her for about 10 minutes, jogging and a couple of laps of loping, and again the mare tied up. So we are back at square one.

As I said earlier, she has periodically had tying up episodes, maybe one or two a year for the last couple of years, but generally after a day or so she has been fine. In fact, my daughter has done quite a bit of jumping on her, including cross country, and she's been to several shows this year. Oddly enough, she has never tied up away from home.

The barn owner informed us last night that the vet told her that in his experience, horses with EPSM have more and more frequent tying up episodes as they get older, with longer times to recover in between, and gradually get so debilitated they are unrideable and sometimes have to be put down. That's certainly not the impression I get from reading on this site!

So, is it possible the Nutrena is causing the problem, or is it just as the vet said, she'll continue to get worse and worse no matter what we do? When she was biopsied, Dr. Valberg described her EPSM as "moderate" and said there was no reason she wouldn't do well if managed properly, but we certainly don't seem to be managing her well. Any ideas, Dr. O or anyone?
Member:
Hally

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 10:38 am:

All I can say is get your horse back on the appropriate volume off oil, and dont feed 4 cups of Nuterina! My EPSM gelding since being on 2.5 cups of corn oil a day, 3.5 yrs ago mixed with beet pulp has never ever tied up after being on this diet. I am totally strict about what he gets to eat and it just takes time to tweak the diet till you find something thats suitable to your horses taste. Dont get the beet pulp to wet, but add the oil about 2 hrs before feeding. That way the oil soaks into the beet pulp. Add a couple of chopped carrots and maybe a SMAll handful of something they like (even sweetfeed) just to entice the animal to eat. I encourage you to look at Dr Beth Valentines website www.ruralheritage.com. There is tons of information on that web site about EPSM. And as far as more and more episodes of tying up. Dont by into that. Just get the horse on the diet that will help him.
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 11:20 am:

I thought that horses that tie up were only supposed to be on grass hay, or grass pellets with oil for fat, and maybe some kind of vitamin to balance the mixture if needed. I know they are supposed to be kept on a low protein diet. any kind of pelleted feed is probably too much protein. Most of them are 12 to 14%, grass hay or pellets should be around 9%. I feed Standlee timothy grass pellets(9% protein) to several of my older horses that should not be on alfalfa because of cumulative liver problems from toxins in some plants in this area. I dont use cubes because of their teeth and possible choking from trying to swollow a cube without chewing it much.
Chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Hally

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 11:50 am:

No alfalfa (protein) doesnt seem to cause a problem. Copied from Rural Heritage site "The goal of the EPSM diet is to decrease soluble dietary carbohydrates (grain) and increase fat. You want to provide 20% to 25% of total daily calories from fat."
My gelding gets alfalfa cubes everyday with his other hay. Young spring grass that is chock a block with sugars (carbohydrates)can cause a lot of problems. A lot of horses with EPSM that are on lush pasture often have to wear a muzzle.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 12:49 pm:

Just adding my two cents that this has to be one of the most frustrating conditions EVER!!! I feel for you Carolyn...
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 1:44 pm:

My inclination at this point is to develop some attitude of my own (my daughter has an over-abundance!!!! - we have issues, can you tell????) and put my foot down about this horse's diet. I'm the one who has done all the research on this over the years, and I'm basically being ignored. Unfortunately my daughter is an adult and it is her horse. Fortunately I have been generous for YEARS about helping her with anything to do with the horse, including with $$$$, so if I threaten to go on strike maybe that will get everyone's attention.

I'm thinking about insisting that the horse be taken off EVERYTHING except hay for a month. Then we can try beet pulp with oil to see if she will eat that. When she was first diagnosed, we tried Releve, developed by Dr. Valberg, which is mostly rice bran, but it made her so hyper she was pinging off the walls.

You're right, Gwen this is frustrating. What's most frustrating to me is that this horse is extremely talented and could go far with the right treatment, but my daughter has neither the time, patience, or attitude to handle the situation. And she can never sell the horse with this condition.

To complicate matters, my daughter is getting married in the spring and will be moving the horse to California, and there's no telling what kind of facility will be available, and whether they will follow whatever feeding program we do develop. I think this horse will just have to spend the rest of her life as a pasture ornament.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 2:48 pm:

I feel for you in the parent aspect. Since you are/have been providing a lot of support, financial included, you very well may want to put your foot down. Sit her down and show her the information you have gathered. Tell her you can't sit back idly watching the current feeding program fail. Don't listen to the barn owner, you should feed your horse what you want and oil isn't messy if you are careful with it. Be firm even if she is an adult..
New Member:
Melis1

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 6:08 pm:

Hi Carolyn,

My TWH has EPSM, too. He's 15 and doing great. It took us a while to find the correct amount of oil to feed. He's currently fed 2.5 cups of veg oil mixed with 2lbs of senior complete feed and 2 cups of black oil sunflower seeds. I bought one of those large blue rubbermaid drinking coolers and just dumped the oil (from Sam's club) into it. I have a measuring cup that sits atop it. Twice a day I pour out the oil and mix it with his feed.

When we lived in FL last year, he was on pasture 24/7 along with the feedings. Now we live in northern NY. He's on free choice timothy hay and has never acted or looked better. His weight is good, he moves well and his attitude is so much better. I can remember when we first bought him his eyes we so dull. Now they're bright.

I guess what I'm trying to say is please don't give up on your daughter's horse.

I have also found the rural heritage site to be an excellent source of info. especially the forum.

One thing to consider is that the horse might not be getting the minimum amount of oil. According to Dr. Valentine, "Most EPSM horses need at least 1 pound fat (2 cups oil or other fat source) per 1,000 pounds of horse per day." I don't think 2 scoops of dry fat equals 1 pound's worth.
Member:
Ryle

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 6:57 pm:

If your barn manager isn't willing to abide by the veterinarians directions on feeding, it's time to talk to the barn owner. Bottom line, this is your horse and if the barn manager is causing harm to your horse by mis-care, then the barn owner needs to deal with it or you need to find a new situation to keep your horse in.

You could look into some easier diet plans that Dr. Valentine has posted. There are several options listed: https://home.earthlink.net/~brad9033/Draft_EPSM_DIets.html This way the diet is spelled out and easy to follow. With the Nutrena Lite Balance, you are definitely going the wrong way especially if your horse won't eat his oil or other fat supplement...it's only 3% fat. And check the label, I bet the main ingredients are grains.

Another thing to consider when changing the diet is to do it slowly, even with the addition of oil. Some horses will be very put off by the texture or taste of the oil if you add to much at one time and have to be worked up to it slowly. We usually recommend that our clients start with just a couple of tablespoons of oil and work up slowly to the required amount.
Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 7:04 pm:

Hi Carolyn;
You have your hands full of horse and child! Hally is correct it is not the protein which poses a problem, it is the fact that the muscle cells do not handle simple carbohydrates well. Hence, they can deal with a complex structural carb diet, which your unprocessed grasses give. Alfalfa has a higher sugar content and since sugar is a simple carb it may not be the best situation. Regarding other hays, please keep in mind the amount of sugar in the hay/grass is going to depend on growing and harvesting conditions. In NJ we have little problems with a "sweet" hay, we have so much overcast and rain that the sugar content never forms in abundance or is leached out at harvest. (Yes, we are one huge swamp, the sponge of the nation). Areas with a lot of sunshine or widely varying temps between day and night produce a different sugar profile. I'm trying to point out that alfalfa, or timothy for that matter, in NJ may work just fine but be too much for a EPSM horse in Idaho. Your best bet is to get together with an extension agent who can describe stages of growth and what to look for to find a hay with low sugar. (smell, color, boot, seed head, vegitative).
Regarding oil. please think in terms of calories. Off the top of my head I'm remembering a cup equals 1300 so if you are doing a solid fat feed, go for the calorie amount.
Hmm, bran everyday, is she balancing it with calcium? It's a very unbalanced feed stuff and throws the Calcium:phosphorus ration off, and it has the added insult of decreasing calcium absorbtion in the body. Once a week wouldn't be a concern, but every day would be. Is the vet aware of this practice?
What's in the Nutrene litebalance? Just because it says it's light doesn't mean it is. Check for grains or any form of sugar. Soy beans are fine and alfalfa meal may be depending on how your horse responds to it. many times a binder for pellets has a molasses base.
Just more things on your platter to think about, as if you didn't already have enough. Your idea of stripping back to one thing and adding from there is excellent.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 7:10 pm:

Carolynn, certainly the first step is to return to the diet the horse was doing better on and I disagree with the veterinary opinion and would suggest those cases were badly managed. We have recently returned from an afternoon with Dr Valberg at the AAEP this year and will be revising the article with updated management information. It seems for the past year that this article has had more updates than any other but new information is coming in fast and furious on the various polysaccharide myopathies. I will see if I can get that done early next week.

In the meantime consider the following. Return to the former diet while continuing to try and find palatable diets with 10 to 20% (by weight) fat and less than 20% (by weight) starch plus other nonstructural carbohydrates. I was going to suggest the Releve from Dr Valberg suggestions (and others on this site have had success with it). Perhaps you were giving too much and the excess dietary energy caused excitement and therefore lower amounts would be Ok? And lastly try and get her out and walking around in a paddock as soon as she is comfortable enough. A good dose of acepromazine (see article for recommended doses and timing) prior to turn out to ease the excited nature that almost for sure contributed to the tying up.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 7:41 pm:

Thank you, thank you, thank you all!!!! I have a busy weekend ahead and need to take the time to review all your suggestions. I actually have known all this for several years, as I've done a lot of research here and on Dr. Valentine's site, so all your comments are just validating what I already believe. The problem is convincing my daughter and the barn owner/manager, who unfortunately is also a personal friend, so this gets into personalities as well. Guess it's time for Mom to throw a tantrum!!

I'll let you know how things go.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 8:02 pm:

So tell me, does this look like a horse that will become unrideable and debilitated? These were taken last month.

english

western
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 8:34 pm:

Oh, she is so cute! I think you should keep her for yourself!! You are the one who seem so invested in her well-being!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 10:44 pm:

Very nice, Carolyn. Very pretty mare.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 8:22 am:

Nice versatile horse. The two of them look great together.
It must be so frustrating to board a special needs horse! I guess I am lucky I get to pick up my own poop (er...I mean, my HORSES' poop!),but at least I can feed them however I choose!
Take good care of that nice horse. Tying up is such a painful thing, I can't imagine any barn owner not cooperating after seeing an episode of it.
Good luck.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 11:27 am:

One more quick thing to add, my daughter always complains that the mare is unwilling to bend to the left. Could this also be a symptom of EPSM?

Gwen, I'd love to keep her for myself, unfortunately I'm pushing 60, with bad knees, and she would be way too much horse for me. She also knows that "Grandma" is easy to push around!
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 1:18 pm:

You are funny, Carolyn! I would say that the resistance to bend could definitely be a piece of her EPSM. As you probably know, every horse has a better side, and it has been my experience that because their muscles can be rigid with EPSM, this would only make it more difficult for the mare to stretch and flex to bend.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 6:20 pm:

From my experience with my old horse that always tied up. Excess energy was almost always the cause of his episodes. Katrina
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 9:00 am:

Carolyn, if there are no signs of tying up when the horse is resistant you should treat it as a training issue until proved otherwise, it certainly is a common one.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 12:42 pm:

Hi, Dr. O, I'm researching different recommended feeds. While on the Purina Mills page looking at Purina Athlete and Strategy, came across a feed called Ultium. It looks like it might fit the bill. According to the info on the page, it's 12.4% fat. This is some of the info from the site:

Sustained Energy System-Unique blend of three fuel sources-soluble carbohydrates (starch and sugar), fats and fermentable fiber. Seamlessly blends fuel sources to provide a "steady" level of energy. A horse that is mentally focused, controllable and manageable has the best chance of winning


Reduced Starch, Higher Fat-Low starch and high fat may reduce the risk of colic and other digestive disturbances that occur when feeding large quantities of grain. Added vegetable oil smoothes the glucose and insulin response to dietary starch and sugar, leveling out blood sugar levels, resulting in a pronounced "calming effect"


Unique Blend of Soy Oil, Flaxseed and Rice Bran-Provides Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids to promote healthy immune function and improve hair, skin and hooves. Ultium is energy dense, resulting in prolonged stamina and endurance while maintaining the equine athlete in peak competitive condition. Provides a reserve of "cool" energy-on demand

Sounds good, but I was wondering if you're familiar with this product. I'm thinking it might be fairly new. Still have to check with the local feed stores to see what they stock.

Thanks for any feedback.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:07 pm:

Carolyn,

I think you are still going to have the same problem because the only way to get 2 - 3 cups of oil into a horse a day is to mix it with something like beet pulp. You would have to feed an enormous amount of this supplement to get to the level you require. And of course this will cause problems. Have you tried beetpulp? Having a horse with EPSM takes a lot of perseverance and unfortunately there are no "miracle" feeds out there that will do the trick without adding the extra oil. At least not one that I know of or are avaliable where I live. Adding a small amount of a high fat low carb ration makes the meal more palatable, however you really have to be careful to not assume that this feed is going to be as good as giving oil.

Owning a horse with EPSM is not an easy thing to deal with. But it could be worse and the diet really does make a huge difference. Something you are going to have to drill into your daughter for the horses sake.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:29 pm:

The ingredients in Ultium are -in order-
Dried Beet Pulp
Wheat Middlings
Stabilized Rice Bran
Ground Soybean Hulls
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal
Ground Oat Hulls
Ground Corn
Soybean Oil
Dehulled soybean meal
Flaxseed
Dried Whey
Various vitamins, minerals, etc

Don't know if that is what is needed for a horse with EPSM, but thought I'd put it out there.
Kathleen
Member:
Hally

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:35 pm:

Hi Carolyn,

I have cut and pasted the some information from Dr Beth Valentines web site that you might find helpful.

Ultium
Posted by Caryl at 2005-10-24 03:41:16
Anyone had any experience with Purina's Ultium?? It appeared to have less grains in the initial ingredients and is a higher fat diet. I'm considering changing Mason over to this as he hates alfalfa pellets now. He's been on McCauleys M-30 (30% prot supplement ) to mix oil and fat powder with. I also have a new mount that I'm slowly introducing oil and fat powder too. He (Charlie) too has a lot of similar characteristics as Mason before diagnosed, sluggish on hills and would you believe a twitching in his muzzle. I know I'm probably the only EPSM horse owner who has one that twitches, but I may have two!!
Thanks,
Caryl

Response by Beth Valentine, DVM, PhD at 2005-10-24 16:27:49
Purina's new product Ultium has proven to be palatable to even fussy horses (like Bart!). It is a good low starch and sugar feed that also has enough fat (12%) that you can reduce the amount of added oil somewhat. Calculate fat content from Ultium by multiplying pounds fed per day by 0.12, and then add oil (using 2 cups oil = 1 pound) to make up the needed difference. Interesting about your new hore - we'll definitely be interested in hearing how things go with diet change.
Response by Bill Vogel at 2005-10-26 01:40:03
I always knew Bart would be famous one day. I was thinking more in terms of, maybe, the Volvo cup or something similar, but I'll take what I can get. ;-)
Response by Jennifer Tuthill at 2005-10-28 02:57:33
We are just finishing our first bag of Ultium with my two Icelandics. Served alone, without anything special and oil, it's a bust. With several added toppings and encouragements like beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, a dash of senior feed, an handful of this and that, and they will eat almost all. On a good day. I am not sure I will buy another bag.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:44 pm:

Thanks, Hally and Kathleen! I'm still doing lots of research on different things to try. I'm hoping to find something that will be easy for the barn to feed. Beet pulp with oil might be an option, but it would have to be soaked overnight and would probably freeze. It would be much easier if we had our own facilities, but that's not an option at this point. If we use a processed feed we will probably need to add either oil or powdered fat. Then there is the problem with getting Miss Fussy to eat what we give her. This is probably going to take several months of trial and error!
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:47 pm:

If you fed only Ultium, you would have to feed 8.4 pounds a day to get enough oil.
I think it is pretty expensive.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 2:06 pm:

It's $15.00/50lbs
Member:
Hally

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 5:28 pm:

I would think that 8.5 pounds of a grain supplement in any EPSM horse would cause real problems! You really have no choice but feed oil.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 6:09 pm:

Ultium is not a grain supplement as far as I know, it is a pelleted feed, made up mostly of beet pulp and has so much oil that it is in a bag that has a special liner.
Kathleen
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 6:46 pm:

I used to feed my boy Ultium. I changed over to strategy when I started boarding him out because Ultium is expensive. My guy still would prefer not to eat it when soaked in oil...
Member:
Hally

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 7:37 pm:

Kathleen,

I am aware that it is a pelleted feed, however if you look at the content, although it is a high fat lower carb content, with a horse that has been diagnosed with EPSM you have to be very careful with amount you feed. Corn and wheat being one of them. When you have a moment log onto www,ruralheritage.com. It will give you the low down on EPSM.I give my EPSM gelding corn oil however that is different then feeding them corn. When you have a horse afflicted with this condition you learn a lot real quick!
Member:
Hally

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 7:49 pm:

Carolyne,

Some info for you.

Higher Fat Feeds
If a feed is 10% or more fat you can use the feed to provide some of the needed fat. No feed to date, with the possible exception of Kent Feed Omegatin (20% fat and only 13% starch and sugar) is high enough in fat and low enough in starch and sugar to provide an EPSM diet without some added 100% fat. Ultimate Finish at 25% fat, for example, may be fed using the basic proportion of 3 pounds Ultimate Finish with 1⁄2 cup added oil per 1,000 pounds of horse per day.

Anything else you add to the concentrated portion of your horse’s diet will dilute the fat calories. Most companies making these feeds suggest using them only as a supplement to other feed. For EPSM and hard working horses, however, these products should be fed alone, along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement. Some examples of high fat feeds rare: Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat), Nutrena Empower (22% fat), Moorglo (15% fat), Rice bran, powdered (20% fat), Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat), and Re-Leve (about 10% fat). Please note: Purina Athlete is too high in starch and sugar (almost 50%) to be a good EPSM feed.

Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying pounds fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 pounds of Ultimate Finish contain 3 times 0.25 = 0.75 pounds of fat.

Feeds containing 20% or more fat may be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) for additional fat. All other feeds require the addition of a 100% fat source.

100% Fat Supplements
Any vegetable oil you would put in your salad‹such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, or cottonseed‹is suitable for horses. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive. Other good sources of fat are Cool Calories vegetable oil products by Milk Specialties (toll-free 800-323-5424 extension 1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi), as well as the same company's less expensive Fat Pak 100 dry animal fat product.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 7:18 am:

The idea that you have to give two cups of oil or that a 20% oil concentrate diet is required is mistaken Hally. There is variation in tolerance for sugars and starches afflicted with EPSM so it is a individual thing and any one amount is not a Holy Grail. Many horses with diagnosed EPSM respond to concentrates as low as 10% oil. Just as important (or maybe more so since fatty acids from structural carbohydrates is safe for these horses) is the percentage of rapidly digestible non-structural carbs (sugars and starches). Also regular pasture exercise will greatly reduce the incidence. Current theory greatly suggests that it is the balance of blood sugar concentrations and energy expenditure (exercise) in combination with genetics that may explain this disease best.

However when a horse is having a problem I do like to start at closer to 20% (see our article on EPSM), get the problem under control, then see if lower amounts can be tolerated. I think the Ultium looks promising based on the ingredient list which should be in a decreasing order of percentage. But I would feel better about if it a analyzed percentage of starch and sugar in it.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 7:58 am:

Dr. O, I've e-mailed Purina Feeds to see if they'll give me the percentage of starch and sugar.

I questioned the barn owner about her feeding wheat bran to all the horses and basically didn't get an answer. She is very old school and feeds horses the way her grandfather and mother did. Is there a benefit to feeding wheat bran? I would think it's basically pure starch. She doesn't want to stop feeding the bran because she feels we need something to mix the vitamin E and selenium supplement with. Boy, would this be easier if we didn't have to board.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:54 am:

You know what I really find frustrating? Most feed companies don't tell you what's actually in their feeds! For example, I couldn't find any list of ingredients on the Nutrena LiteBalance bag, just the guaranteed analysis of fat, protein, etc. The barn owner says she was told it's "forage" based. Guess that means they can put any kind of "forage" in it they want?
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:42 am:

Sorry Dr O I dont agree with you,

I am a follower of Dr Beth Valentine and her research that involves horses with EPSM. What you state goes totally against what she bases her research on. As this is her field, I have to use my judgement and go with her recommendations. Unfortunately a lot of veterinarians that dont specialize in this field have their own opinions. I find this worrying as a simple change of diet high in fat makes a huge difference to the health and well being of these horses. I have a horse with EPSM and until he went on this hight fat diet, I had major problems with tying up. It has never happened since. Dr Valentine's web site will attest to hundreds of other people who have horses with EPSM and have had the same positive results. I think you do a great disservice by not being more open to someone who is specializing in this disease.

The problem that Carolyns daughters horse is experiencing should be proof enough that the horse needs to be on a recommended EPSM high fat diet. Why not just try it? Its not like she needs to do something radical! It takes a bit of effort initially but ultimately the proof is in a happier and healthier horse! Sorry but I find your answer very frustrating in the face of all the facts that are based on solid and good research.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:50 am:

Dr. O, this is the response from Purina.

"Ultium would be 16% non structural carbs."

With that in mind, would Ultium be a good choice?
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 11:15 am:

Never mind, just answered my own question. I see in your first post above that less than 20% starch/non-structural carbs should be OK. I have to special order this as our local Purina dealer doesn't carry it, so I'm going for it. I intend to start very slowly to be sure she'll eat it and see how the tying up goes. If we still have issues, I'll start trying to introduce oil a teensy bit at a time. As fussy as she is this is going to be interesting.

Hally, I think Dr. O is just saying that EPSM horses can vary in their need for fat, just as humans with diabetes vary widely in their need for insulin. Dr. Valentine has done excellent research as has Dr. Valberg, and I think their conclusions are similar, that a higher fat diet is essential.

I'm going to start slowly with this mare and see how she accepts the added fat. If I can manage to get her up to 20% (big IF considering what a picky eater she is) I'll be happy.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 1:52 pm:

Carolyn,

Thanks for that. I just know what worked for my horse and the "no believers" that I was up against. Its very frustrating! Especially when you get statement from Dr O

"The idea that you have to give two cups of oil or that a 20% oil concentrate diet is required is mistaken Hally. There is variation in tolerance for sugars and starches afflicted with EPSM so it is a individual thing and any one amount is not a Holy Grail. "

As a lay person you have to go with the top researchers in the specialized fields. Because your knowledge base depends on that. Comments as above from Dr O are very frustrating. I am not mistaken... I just believe in the research that Dr Valentine has done. Period. Until someone proves to me that my gelding can do without his full ration of oil and not tie up, then they can tell me I am mistaken.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 1:57 pm:

Carolyn,

Thanks for that. I just know what worked for my horse and the "no believers" that I was up against. Its very frustrating! Especially when you get statement from Dr O

"The idea that you have to give two cups of oil or that a 20% oil concentrate diet is required is mistaken Hally. There is variation in tolerance for sugars and starches afflicted with EPSM so it is a individual thing and any one amount is not a Holy Grail. "

As a lay person you have to go with the top researchers in the specialized fields. Because your knowledge base depends on that. Comments as above from Dr O are very frustrating. I am not mistaken... I just believe in the research that Dr Valentine has done. Period. Until someone proves to me that my gelding can do without his full ration of oil and not tie up, then they can tell me I am mistaken.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 3:21 pm:

Hally,

I did not get the impression that Dr O is disagreeing with the high fat diet at all! He was merely saying that each horse needs a different percentage of oil. His sentence after the one you quoted said "Many horses with diagnosed EPSM respond to concentrates as low as 10% oil". He is NOT saying that a high fat diet is not the answer to EPSM.

Please read his post again.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 3:55 pm:

No but Dr Valentines research points out that they DO need a certain percentage of oil per 1000lb. Not that some horses need less oil than some others. Please read her web site. It is very enlightening
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 4:08 pm:

I have read her website and I still don't think Dr O is "doing a great disservice by not being more open to someone who is specializing in this disease". I strongly disagree with your previous post.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 4:22 pm:

No problem. You are entitled to your own opinion. As I am.
New Member:
Melis1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 6:05 pm:

Hmmm, it does sound like Dr. O is saying there is NOT a set minimum amount of fat to feed an EPSM horse while Dr. Valentine suggests there is.

From my experience I find that my horse needs at least 2 cups of oil/day and he weighs about 800lbs.

I started using this diet when I was boarding him and got an earful from both the stable owner and her daughter (my vet). I stuck with the diet anyway and saw a great improvement. A year or so after we moved I stopped the oil and had him on pasture (bermuda grass) only without grain. All his symptoms returned. That convinced me. He needs the added fat regardless of whatever else I'm feeding him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 7:45 pm:

Hally, your post suggest you largely misunderstand my position and if you will read my posts carefully I think you will see that. I have the utmost respect for Dr Valentine and have referred to her site in our article on PSSM for many years, though I did remove it this fall. I was discussing this problem by email with Dr. Valentine last decade (may not have been 10 years ago). I was taking the side that oil seems to be helping many horses that were probably not effected by what was a very poorly defined muscle disorder of draft breeds at that time. She was taking the opposing view.

My position on the dosage of oil is not just my own. Dr Valberg, who most would consider the most renowned researcher on polysaccharide storage myopathies in the world, was making these exact same statements at a afternoon of lectures I attended just 2 weeks ago. Dr Valberg finds the amount of oil in the diet variable and has seen horses do well on as little as 10% of the concentrate by weight. The amount needed depends on many poorly defined factors but include severity of disease and the amount of exercise the horse is getting. Certainly a critical value is the amount of sugars and starch the horse is receiving. Take for example a very easy keeping PSSM horse that requires little more than stemmy hay that will grow obese on 2 cups of oil a day. It would not be wise or necessary to put such a horse on 2 cups of oil a day as his sugar/starch intake is low already.

Hally I have not suggested you should decrease the amount of oil your horse is getting and certainly have not suggested that Carolyn should not be trying to adjust her diet in response to her horses disease. We are simple saying that 2 cups is not a critical amount for this disease for all horses. Melissa we discuss the recommended ranges above. 10% by weight seems to be the lowest amount some PSSM horses have done well on that I have seen. More may be required for others and, as stated above, recommend you start high and once controlled work your way down.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 7:19 pm:

OK, this is getting scary. The barn owner took the mare to the round pen this afternoon as she hadn't had any exercise for a couple of days. She ran around for about 5 minutes, walked back to her stall fine, but when we got out there an hour later she was completely tied up and sweating! We gave her Ace, dried her off and blanketed her, and she was eating her dinner when we left.

It has to be the Nutrena!!! There has been no other change to her diet, environment, amount of exercise, or anything, except the Nutrena. Now I'm afraid to give her any additional feed, even with high fat content. She has tied up 3-4 times this year on just grass and alfalfa, but this is three times in less than 10 days!!

I can't think of any other way to get additional fat into her, though. Maybe if I mixed the powdered fat (Fat Pack 100) with a small amount of apple juice or something? She won't eat it otherwise. About two years ago we put her on alfalfa pellets as she was a little thin, and she tied up badly on those, too.

She's been taken off the Nutrena as of this morning, and my daughter and the barn owner have instructions to do nothing but hand walk her or walk her under saddle for about 10 minutes a day. I'm going to be out of town for a week, so I'll let you know how she is when I get back.

I'm at my wit's end!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:09 pm:

Easy Carolyn,
start by discontinuing the Nutrena and any other concentrate for the time being. Let's start with a list of the diet, pasture, and exercise regimen before the Nutrena and be sure to include the weight, frequency, and analysis for commercial preparations. Also I would like to know how you rate your horses current body condition.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:47 pm:

OK, sorry, I'll try to calm down a bit but gosh this is frustrating! I think my daughter and the barn owner have finally figured out they can't go messing with this horse's feed, at least.

The mare is turned out daily with 2 other mares, but we are in Arizona and there is no pasture at all. Each of the mares gets a good sized flake of alfalfa (no idea of the weight). At night she had been getting grass hay (again no idea of the weight, my best guess would be 5-6 lbs, a good armful) but that was changed to alfalfa about 2 months ago. (We've changed back to grass now.) She gets a tomato can of wheat bran each morning (and has her whole life as she was born at this barn) along with two scoops of Performance Pack 100 and a scoop of vitamin E and selenium supplement. She hasn't been cleaning up the bran/fat/vitamin E, though, in fact she has hardly been eating it at all. I got some cocasoya oil last month and we tried mixing that in with her bran and powdered fat, but she turned her nose up at that as well.

She's usually ridden 5-6 days a week for about 30 minutes by either my daughter or the barn owner, sometimes they do Western pleasure, sometimes dressage or jumping, depending on what shows are coming up.

Riding time and turnout have been somewhat less than usual for the last few weeks as the weather hasn't been good and my daughter hasn't been feeling well. On the other hand, in November they went to two shows, and the mare was ridden for about 4-5 hours each time, and did just fine.

Body condition I would say is probably a 6, we've noticed that she has put on a bit of weight over the last month or so. She's an easy keeper, for sure.

Hope this is the info you were looking for, and thanks for the "calm down" post!
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 9:00 pm:

I have a probably silly question... The oil/fat's purpose is energy only right?? Carolyn, when you say "2 scoops" of fat, do you know what that translates to? I know on Dr Valentine's site, she says that you need to give double the amount of dry fat as oil. I just ordered Cool Calories from smartpack and it says that the regular amount prescribed is 2 ounces (2 scoops). Doesn't seem like nearly enough to me. I hope I didn't miss the whole point of this post. If I am way off, please disregard me!!!
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 9:20 pm:

There are no silly questions, Gwen, unless they are unasked! And do you know, I can't remember the size of the scoop. It's kind of a moot point, anyway, since she isn't eating it.

I just checked Dr. Valentine's site, she says 4 cups dry fat equals two cups oil. We've probably been giving the mare about a cup of the dry fat, so no nearly enough to make much difference.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 9:46 pm:

Carolyn,

Have you tried corn oil? It seems to be way more palatable than some other oils. Also I know some people have had success pouring it over the hay also. Like I said beet pulp worked for my gelding. And if you soak it a couple of hours ahead of time that should be enough and it wont freeze in that short a time.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:01 pm:

We tried corn oil a couple of years ago, poured over alfalfa pellets. But I'm not sure how much of the oil she actually got as the barn owner wasn't thrilled with the idea of using it. And she tied up badly on the alfalfa pellets, there must be starch/sugar/grain or something in them. She got better after we stopped the pellets.

I think over the last few years we've been trying the "shotgun" approach, throw a bunch of different things at the problem but not really take the time to evaluate what we're doing. And since she hasn't been "that bad" for the last couple of years we've just not been paying a whole lot of attention. Believe me, she has our attention now!
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:13 pm:

Hi Carolyn,

Regarding using beet pulp, it does not have to be soaked all night. I soak my beet pulp in hot water, and it's usually ready to feed within 30 minutes. The water has cooled down by then too, so it's safe to feed. I pour the corn oil over the beet pulp right before I feed it, and just mix it in.

Another alternative would be to get shredded beet pulp, instead of the pellets.

Nicole
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 11:23 pm:

Don't you soak the shredded beet pulp also? Or does it not have to be soaked so long? I've never had a horse turn down the corn oil, btw.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 7:55 am:

I had to change from corn oil because I brought my guy out to a boarding barn and she doesn't like oil in the winter. She does feed those black oil seeds though which have been mentioned on Dr. V's site. Has anyone tried them? I saw that someone even gave them as treats!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 7:57 am:

That all presents a much clearer picture Carolyn. The recent history of decreased exercise and weight gain have contributed greatly to the worsening condition. The alfalfa and the recent increase in concentrate could not have come along at a worse time. When you look at that weight gain think of your horse as one big muscle cell and that weight gain is the abnormal glycogen building up in the horse and though not actually true it is true as the horses condition improves so will the glycogen problem. It will take time to flush it from his system but we should start seeing improvement is about 3 weeks. Let's define your problem list as:

1) Tying up most likely secondary to abnormal glycogen build up in the muscle cells but appears to often be precipitated by short periods of excited exercise.
2) Overweight

Discuss with your vet these problems and discuss with him these recommendations:
Feeding:
As long as your horse is overweight I don't think fat is indicated and may be detrimental as it will slow removal of glycogen do to it being an alternate fuel source. Feed 9 lbs of a poor to medium quality grass hay daily. If medium to good is all you can find soak it for at least an hour prior to feeding. To make up for the low protein and vitamin imbalance, supplement the diet with 12 oz soaked alfalfa cubes to which a vitamin supplement is added. For our suggestions on vitamin supplementation see the article on PSSM and Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Vitamins an Overview. 3 oz of bran added to this that would be OK and help with both protein and phosphorous balance. Be sure to consider the selenium supplementation with respect to expected amount in the diet (see article on selenium in the same nutrition section as the vitamins). Carefully weigh all amounts and if the horse does not eat this readily remove it and try again next day.

Exercise:
Several large surveys of horses with frequent problems found that diet alone rarely resulted in resolution of clinical signs and while horses on nothing but 100% pasture.

I think of all the things Dr Valberg said this was the most surprising to me: Stall resting seems to cause ongoing muscle damage as measured by continuing elevation in muscle enzymens. Also hand walking for more than 5 minutes seems to be detrimental to these stall resting horses. This suggests that following an acute episode there should be no more than 48hrs stall rest followed by 24 hours turn out in increasing size paddocks. Mild setbacks should not be cause for returning to the stall (see article on PSSM for more on the treatment of these).

The problem always has been getting the horse back exercising without causing a severe set back. Important in your case is to sedate the horse (acepromazine) prior to turn out and if necessary use ongoing sedation to prevent these episodes of excitement. I know the questions are how big a paddock and how much ace but there are no firm answers to these questions: as small as you can start with and increased weekly in as small an increment as you can make with just enough sedative to keep the horse from running around when out. We give suggestions and you can read and other's experiences at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.

Lastly Carolyn keep a careful diary of feeds, exercise, turn out, and clinical signs. Not all horses will get better with this regimen so further adjustments may have to be made. In time this diary will become your bible on the care of your horse. If you would post the lab report on your horse here as it may have further helpful information.
DrO
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 8:03 am:

I had to change from corn oil because I brought my guy out to a boarding barn and she doesn't like oil in the winter. She does feed those black oil seeds though which have been mentioned on Dr. V's site. Has anyone tried them? I saw that someone even gave them as treats!
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 8:58 am:

Hi, I have to agree with Dr.O. here. Last year my mare was acting as a epsm horse, never formally diagnosed, but all the symptoms were there.

I started her on the oil until she started gaining weight and refusing the oil. I have since removed as much carbs as possible and try to keep her nutrition right.

She gets 8lbs. of hay, with 2 lbs. of it being alfalfa the rest is medium quality grass, 1/2 lb. of lite balance pellets, soaked, with added vit./ min.

24 hr. turnout, when locked in because of weather, I can tell. She is old and has arthritis also. Since this low carb diet her epsm is quite controlled, and she can now stand for the farrier.

Every horse is different, but my horse has done pretty good without the oil. She is not rode much but I do hop on her for a short bareback ride occasionally.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 9:17 am:

Wow, Dr. O, very interesting! I'm glad I didn't rush out and buy the Ultium. I was trying to work out in my mind how we were going to increase her calories by adding fat, and yet get her to lose weight.

I should have clarified that she has an open, shed type stall with a 14x20 run, so even when she is not turned out in the large paddock for one reason or another, she does still have an area to exercise.

I'll have to talk to the barn owner and see what we can do about turning her out, as the mares she is turned out with all get alfalfa.

How do you determine the quality of the grass hay? I looked briefly on your nutrition site but didn't see anything - maybe I missed it?

What do you do with a horse like this if you aren't able to exercise her, for example if she's injured or the humans all get the flu? Do you have to start back at the beginning each time? I guess I'm trying to think too far ahead, but it would be nice to have an idea what to do if it happens.

The funny thing about this mare is that years ago, at the beginning of her training under saddle, she would occasionally tie up while being ridden, especially if she and the rider were having "issues" - "I don't WANT to do that." But during this same period, she would get excited about something in turnout and run around like an idiot, yet not tie up.

We didn't have blood work done this time as the vet is nearly an hour away and we don't have our own trailer. Is that really important? It would be difficult to get the vet here at the time she's tying up, and trailering her while she's tied up would be hard or maybe even dangerous.

As I said, I'll be gone for a week so I'll have my daughter monitor things and let you all know how the mare is when I get back.

Thanks to all of you for your input, having support with a weird problem like this is invaluable! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 11:12 am:

Oh Diane, that is very interesting. I was worried my horse was not doing well because he wasn't getting enough fat. Just when I think I know what I am doing with this, I realize I DON'T! You are not alone Carolyn! I do want to mention that Dr. V's website is invaluable. However, the emphasis on oil made me think that that is the magic ingredient to this condition. I think Dr. O's latest description was very helpful. Carolyn, from MY experience, time off is not good for these guys/girls. I wonder if you could get someone to work her when your daughter can't.
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 11:53 am:

Since the mare wasn't really doing too badly before we added the Nutrena, I'm going to concentrate on making the diet and exercise changes as Dr. O suggests. In fact, I'm going to see if the barn owner will teach me how to lunge the mare - she isn't lunged on a regular basis anymore so I'm sure she's forgotten how it works, and I've never done it, so this could be interesting. Will probably need to give her a little Ace before doing this so she doesn't go all hyper on us. My daughter will have a stressful and busy month in January because of her job, so I could lunge the mare when she can't ride.

If she's not better in a month, I'll ask for suggestions on adding oil/fat without mixing it with a feed supplement. I'm convinced that the Nutrena set this off, I'd almost say that she's somehow "allergic" to something in these processed feeds, as she ties up on alfalfa pellets too. Dr. O, do you think Dr. Valberg would be interested in having another research horse? Maybe we could ship her to Minnesota!
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 12:09 pm:

Sara, how do you feed the corn oil? Years ago when we tried adding it to pellets the mare wouldn't have anything to do with it.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 12:37 pm:

Carolyn,
My mare has EPSM too, but she is the opposite of yours, she is about a 4.5 on the condition scale, and we can't get weight on her. So, she does get the 2 cups. Thing is, she gets enough grain (I am working on switching her back to unmolassed alfalfa pellets, which she did well on, and which the current barn owner is giving me a hard time switching over to) for the oil not to influence the grain's texture. 1 cup in 4 quarts isn't going to change it too much.
I have, in the past, had to orally syringe it into her. That works, but is labor intensive and messy. I also have heard you can add it to their water, but I can't imagine they would get it all in them that way.
Hope this helps!
Alicia
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 12:56 pm:

I pour it on top of their feed, most of the feed is small pellets, and mix it around good to the pellets are coated. I've also fed it poured on top of their hay. My horses love it,and if their is some in the bottom of their feed pans they lick it up.
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 3:41 pm:

Yeah, I mix the shredded beet pulp with water, but it takes almost no time before it's ready to feed. I've also never had a problem getting a horse to eat corn oil. They all seem to like it.

Nicole
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 7:32 pm:

Dr. O, I'm back in town and wanted to give an update. The mare has been hand walked and has been fine since her last episode on Dec. 19. In fact, she's starting to act like a nut case because she hasn't been ridden - too much energy and cold, cold weather! When we fed her this evening, she was broncing around in her stall. So tomorrow we're starting to ride her again, just at a walk, to see how she does. I haven't been able to locate alfalfa cubes in this area, still working on that. But at least she's off the Nutrena.

The barn owner is still "old school" and is convinced that a build up of lactic acid causes tying up. (I've explained EPSM until I'm blue in the face - I give up.) So she picked up this supplement, "Muscle Recovery Formula" that she wants us to try. Each serving contains 13,000 mg of Creatine, 13,000 mg of Glutamine, and 2,000 mg of DMG (N-Di-Methyl Glycine). "This product is designed to delay the onset of lactic acid buildup in the muscle, thereby reducing muscle fatigue and soreness." Any thoughts as to whether this would be beneficial, harmful, or useless?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 6:50 am:

Carolyn, delighted to hear things are settling down but try and aggressively manage this behavioral problem as it is often associated with tying up itself. For more on keeping horses calm see, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses.

We know specifically that lactic acid is not the reason horses tie up and I will try and provide you with back up for this when I get in the office this morning.

The muscle formula is definitely useless and potentially harmful as it contains large amounts of unbalanced amino acid concentrations (glutamine) that the body cannot use as protein building blocks. If you look at the amino acids as parts of a house you are building it would be like having too many windows delivered: there is no place for them to go. So the body will attempt to use these as an energy source. One way it does this is converting them to glucose molecules through the process of gluconeogenesis. And then glucose can become abnormal glycogen.
DrO
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 10:32 am:

OK, glad I checked. I had a feeling this wouldn't be a good thing to give her.

Have a Happy New Year!
Member:
Santucci

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 10:07 am:

We're on the right track! The mare is back on her "before" diet and is being ridden 3 days a week for 20-30 minutes by the barn owner. (My daughter's work schedule for the next few weeks will keep her away from the barn.) Yesterday the mare was galloped for about 5 minutes, sweated a bit as it was warm here, but did not tie up.

We have not tried to make any drastic changes to her feed, just discontinued the Nutrena and started giving her grass hay at night. The barn owner is convinced that I don't know what I'm talking about ("Tell your mother to stop reading those stupid websites!"). As long as the mare is doing well we're just not going to try to force the issue, as my daughter will be moving her to So. California in the next few months anyway.

Thanks to all of you for your support and advice!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:53 pm:

Most excellent Carolyn, be sure to make as a goal reduction of that body condition back to a "moderate" 5.
DrO
Member:
santucci

Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 8:34 pm:

Time for an update.....the mare hasn't been ridden in a week due to lousy weather, my daughter's work schedule, and the trainer's injured back (HER horse threw her, not ours!). My daughter rode for about 25 minutes this afternoon, walking, trotting, loping, transitions - the mare was as eager to go at the end of 25 minutes as she was at the beginning. It's hard to believe that adding the Nutrena could have caused all her problems, but that sure seems to be the case.

She hasn't lost any appreciable weight, so we still need to work on that, but all in all quite a difference from two months ago!

Thanks once again for all your suggestions and support!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 5:59 am:

Great to hear Carolyn, but understand this is a multifactorial disease and as such many factors will contribute to how you are doing. The irregular exercise is a cause for concern.
DrO
Member:
santucci

Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 8:52 am:

Yes, in an ideal world her exercise would be more consistent, and my daughter knows she needs to work on that. I'm pleased that in spite of not much exercise this week, the mare still did well. We'll just have to see how things go in the future, with my daughter getting married, moving, and looking for a new job. Having a "special needs" horse under those circumstances will be challenging!
Member:
gwen

Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 9:22 am:

That's great Carolyn. Seriously though, never underestimate the power of consistent exercise with this condition. In six years, I haven't been able to keep my horse sound. The ONLY times he is, is when he is exercised 4-5 times a week. Just keep it in mind...
Member:
santucci

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 1:50 pm:

Thought I'd post on recent developments. Things are going great! Sprout and my daughter went to a stadium jumping practice in early March and did well, with no signs of tying up after 6 rounds of jumping, starting at 18 inches and going to 2'6".

The mare was moved to Southern California last month, and after a few days of mild hysteria ("Take me home, NOW!") she has settled in well. She gets grass hay cubes in the morning and grass hay at night. My daughter mixes the powdered fat supplement with a little bran, apple flavored electrolytes, and peppermint flavored Clovite, and the mare inhales it.

My daughter rides 3-4 times a week and/or works the mare in the round pen, and she is sound as a dollar with no muscle spasms or tightness at all. The arena is very deep sand (they are near Palm Springs), so the mare has to work harder than she's used to, but that hasn't bothered her.

Thanks again to everyone who gave advice and support!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 8:57 am:

Super news Carolyn, how much fat (by weight) is the horse getting daily? One adjustment I would consider is substituting a vitamin supplement as outlined in our article on vitamins for the Clovite. If it is the same product it was 10 years ago it was based on the idea that horses do not get enough oil soluble vitamins and plenty of B vitamins. This is rarely the case.
DrO
Member:
santucci

Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 9:27 am:

Hi, Dr. O, my daughter says she gives the mare 8 oz. of Performance Pack 100 daily, that's the same amount we were giving her before, but she's actually eating it now, probably because of the flavored electrolytes and Clovite! She also gives the mare a vitamin E/selenium supplement, which I had forgotten to mention earlier.

The 8 oz. powdered fat is probably equal to about 1/2 cup of vegetable oil, which isn't a lot, so I'm not sure how much good it's actually doing. As long as the mare is doing well I think my daughter will keep it at that level.

Interestingly, the Wal-Mart in Southern CA has a horse section, and they sell Cocasoya. We still have some, but I don't think we'll use it unless the mare starts having problems again. Why mess with success?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 8:43 am:

Thanks Carolyn,
DrO
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC