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  Discussion on Managing degenerative joint disease (DJD) ...advice??? Adequan???
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New Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 5:20 pm:

Yesterday I took my 11 year old barrel mare to the vet to get a complete vet check. For the last 4 months she has seemed really sore in her hind end causing her to crossfire and hop out of her stops. After evaluation of lameness tests and x rays they came to the conclusion that she has developed degenerative joint disease at age 11. I was so sad, but the vet informed me that this is very common in performance horse and she has seen it happen as early as age 5 in young race and barrel horse that are worked . They just break down that fast. Anyways we decided to get her hocks injected with hyvisc (hyaluronic acid) and DepoMedorl (corticosteroid). The vet told me to watch dudes soreness to see when this needs to be done in the future (3-12 months). Goodnews is I can compete on her again as usual!! She also said to maintain her joints with a shot a month of legend (a shot of hyaluronic acid given in vein) or a shot of Adequen ( glycosaminiglycans given in the muscle). I was wondering what others have done to maintain this disease. Also along with joint injections which shot have you used (legend or Adequen) and which is better and have you seen more results with. Also I know oral supplements are not very effective with horses with a diagnosed disease but they work good as a possible preventative. HOW DOES EVERYONE MANAGE DJD WHILE THEY COMPETE ON THE HORSE???
Member:
Caymie

Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 6:57 pm:

Hi Jamie,
My horse has received a daily oral joint supplement and a Legend and Adequan injection monthly since I purchased him as a four year old.
My horse is a large, warmblood who started having trouble with his right hock at age seven. We are now in the process of fusing it and he is eleven. The rest of his joints are in fabulous shape. For my horse, the disease process was so advanced by the time it was diagnosed, that the hock injection only lasted him about six to eight weeks, and never really made him fully sound. I highly doubt this will be the case with your horse.
I have to believe that my joint maintenance has done him some good in all of his other joints. He also had OCD surgery in several joints shortly after I purchased him, and there is some thought that this hock problem could have a developmental component to it as well. I would do as much non-invasive joint support as your finances allow in order to increase the time in between injections. Then it becomes a balancing act of figuring out how much work she can do without causing flare ups of her hock problem. At least she chose a low motion joint to have her problem in, my horse was considerate to do the same.
Mary
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 10:31 pm:

Welcome Jamie,
the article on Arthritis, addresses many of your questions including additional therapies and comparative efficacies of different treatments. Be sure to follow the links to the articles on specific treatments.
DrO
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 10:11 am:

Jamie,
My Tuffy was 11 when I got her. SHe moved well when we met her and "tried her out". We boarded her with the former owners for a few months until we brought her home and paid them to exercise and ride her. Not only did neither happen, but we now suspect she was medicated for that initial meeting. Live and learn. I should have gotten her vetted, Walt wanted to but knew I had already fallen in love with her and went along. By the time we got her home and started working her she was literally plodding from her pen to the pasture. I went online and found www.midaplex.com carrot flavored wafers...loading dose 4 wafers a day, maintenance is 3. She takes them well, as opposed to other powders which I kept finding at the bottom of the bucket. Walt was gone during this time and he could not believe the transformation when he got home! She was prancing and had a sparkle in her eye again. It is relatively inexpensive when bought by the case, a considerable savings over the single bottle purchase. 120 wafers to the bottle. She is 14 now, my forever girl and in the prime of her life. Well muscled and toned, she is a whole new horse. Keep looking, you will find what is right for you.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 10:35 am:

https://www.horsetech.com/trisport.htm#Quick%20Links%20to%20Product%20Pages

This product has more mg's of the ingredients above.. According to Dr. O's info a horse needs more of the joint supplements then the one listed above.. Most folks don't feed enough of the product is my understanding to really account for much..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
New Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 5:56 pm:

Is it even worth giving a horse the oral joint supplement for DJD support along with the hock injections? I mean since there is so much controversy that the oral supplement for joints might not get absorbed. I guess then the adequan should be given more then once a month after she is given the loading dose for maintenance, correct? Also has anyone ever heard of Silver Lining herbs Joint Support? Here is a link to it.
https://silverliningherbs.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=18& Category_Code=supplements&Product_Count=8 It has burdock, butcher’s broom, chaparral, ginger, kelp, slippery elm, uva ursi, white willow, yarrow, yucca. Devils Claw and MSM . Also Robert N. Oglesby, I heard some where that arthritis or joint problems form when there is a mineral build up with in the joint/ cartilage, is this true? Also is it true that the kidneys play a role in joint issues or is it some how linked to joint problems? Thanks, Jamie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 6:53 am:

Hello jamie, your questions about the use of these products are answered in the references I give above.
DrO
New Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:33 pm:

I was looking at the joint supplement options and I read that oral supplements many times dont contain as much of the ingreidents actually
in the product vs. what is listed on the package. Next I read that glucosamine is the only oral ingreident that is at least 95% absorbed in the GI track. here is an article
https://jointsupplement.com/glucosamine2.html

Dr. Oglesby I was wondering if I can get your opinion on this particular joint supplement https://www.jointsupplement.com/ if you want more information go to the products page. It contains 10,000 mg of glucosamine. I also heard that a horse needs at least 10,000 mg of glucosamine for the material to even make a difference or impact on the horses health for joint support. Is this true? Is that to much glucosamine or is that even good joint support? here is another link to the product https://www.jointsupplement.com/prod_SM.html Lastly have you ever heard of this product? I just want to use this supplement as joint support in between hock injections. Thanks, Jamie
New Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:58 pm:

Also I fell upon this hen I was searching the web. WHY NOT JUST FEED GLUCOSAMINE? - Glucosamine has proven benefits for maintenance of joint health, however its bioavailability in horses is fairly low. In addition, the processes involved in joint damage are multi-factorial and glucosamine in isolation is unlikely to address all of these contributory factors. FlexAbility combines a number of proven active ingredients, each of which has been chosen to target specific processes that are important in maintaining normal joint function.
is this true?? Also WHAT IS IN FLEXABILITY? GLUCOSAMINE: Stimulates the synthesis of cartilage components and inhibits breakdown processes. CHONDrOITIN: Low molecular weight forms of chonDrOitin as used in FlexAbility almost certainly improve the absorption of this component, which has recently been shown to work synergistically with glucosamine. MSM: A natural bioavailable form of sulphur required for cartilage structure.
DHA/EPA: Omega 3 fatty acids have a natural anti-inflammatory action & reduce degradative processes. VITAMIN C: An important antioxidant in synovial fluid that protects against the damaging effects of free radicals. Vitamin C is also required for collagen synthesis an important constituent of cartilage. SUITABILITY - FlexAbility is suitable for working horses to help maintain normal joint function and to protect against the rigors of exercise training. In addition, older animals, especially those prone to being stiff, may benefit from FlexAbility, where cumulative wear and tear is starting to take their toll.
Here is the link to it... https://www.horseit.com/en/riding2001/horsefeeds/sciencesup301106.htm There is so many things out there and opinions about what to feed. I mean all I want to do is feed something of support with her hock injections. First i read glucosamine is the only thing that really gets absorbed, then I hear that you still need to feed other ingedients the glucosamine like chonDrOitin. I am so confused. Thanks for your help,Jamie Here is the link for flexability https://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/flexability.pdf or https://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/products.html
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2007 - 7:33 am:

Jamie,

Just my personal experience, but I found a product called Aniflex Complete to be the most helpful for one of my horses with on again, off again shoulder lameness. It has similar ingredients like the stuff above with the addition of HA. I just posted about Oral HA a week or 2 ago regarding a new study done on the effectiveness of oral HA as before it was thought to do no good orally. DrO responded with more on that study.

Aniflex Complete is available from HorseHealthUSA.com Don't know if it will help in your situation but it's worth a try. May extend the time between injections or at the least make the horse more comfortable over all.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2007 - 7:37 am:

Jamie, your confusion stems from researching your horses problem backward. You have started by reviewing advertising claims and then, to your credit, try to validate them. There are lots of reasons this is the wrong way to go about this but these are the most important:
  • The claims of such nutrient based products are not regulated and therefore can claim anything and in the equine industry the number of claims and conflicting claims is huge.
  • It is the nature of science that it is impossible to prove general statements as not true. No matter how many experiments you perform, you can hypothesize dozens of new experiments or conditions that might show an effect.
  • Even if a statement is true, is it a significant piece of information? Let’s look at one of the more believable claims you post above. Vitamin C is certainly likely to be important in some metabolic processes of the joint. But does that mean supplementation would be helpful? What they don’t tell you is that horses do not have a nutritional requirement for vitamin C. They are a specie that can synthesize it themselves. This in the face of having many of there foods containing or even supplemented with it. Excess vitamin C is simply excreted in the urine. Many products start with true statements of fact then extrapolate it to how their product will benefit your horse without a shred of good science to support it.
  • And there are so many ways a oral product can fail to perform beside faulty assumptions: digestibility, absorbability, quality of ingredients, dosage, shelf life, etc...
Taken together it is easy to see why using this method of deciding how to treat your horse with a nutriceutical would make anyone crazy, and if you have not been driven batty yet, there will be new claims in the advertising literature tomorrow to track down.

A much better approach is to do this in the opposite way. Find out what science and good sense support, then go looking for products that meet this profile. You could research each of the claims from your previous post in Horseadvice but I can tell you most of it falls into what can most kindly be stated as “unproven” that supplementation of these items are beneficial for degenerative joint disease. I look everyday for research supporting better treatments for the diseases of horses.

Currently what we know about the efficacy of these products, dosage, and even buying recommendations, is discussed in the article Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments which is linked to from the article I reference above. Did you follow the link? We also have articles on MSM, vitamins in horses, and fats (including specific discussions on omega-3) in the horses diet.

Rather than spend time reviewing numerous and difficult to evaluate advertising claims this morning Jamie, how about I spend time making sure the information in these and all our articles is as current and accurate as the research that was published yesterday and sensible enough that I employ it in my own practice. You can benefit from this effort by studying these articles carefully. If in your reading you have questions, by all means post them here, while I hate wasting time reviewing nonsense ads, I love discussing horse health.
DrO
New Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2007 - 7:33 pm:

Dr. Oglesby thanks for input! I read the article last week on DJD. Here is an actual question on horse health. My 11 year old mare that I run was just checked out and diagnosed with Degenerative joint disease of her lower hock joints. The vet said that they are the low motion joints in the hock and luckly her high motion joints in her hocks is fine. I got the low motion joints injected while i was there, and the vet also told me that when the low motion joints wear out they cause bone to bone rubbing and that causes the body to produce and grow more bone. That then causes the low motion joints to fuse, and after they are fused they wont hurt anymore. Now my question is from what my vet explained is going on in my mare's low motion hock joints is that the same process or definition of fusing hocks? Also if so how long does it take an average horse to fuse considering each horse is an individual?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 6:49 am:

Excellent Jamie,
Yep he is describing fusion but there are no standard times as it varies from a month to never. Usually you wait years for natural arthrodesis. However there are options to hasten the process in horses not controlled through more conservative therapy, see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthrodesis and Joint Fusion for Arthritis.
DrO
Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:28 pm:

Dr. oglesby,
I am contacting my vet but i would also like your advice. It has been 8 days after my mare got her hocks injected and I got to ride her today for the first time since before her hocks were done. I was very excited to see how she will do. I warmed her up by walking, bending, flexing and long trotting for 15-20 minutes. Then I attempted to lope a circle. It was horrible. She was terribly uncomfertable. She is the same way as she was before I got her checked out. The problem is when she lopes she shows the most pain. She seems very unsure of which leg she wants to move. She will lope a circle and she has the correct lead of her inside front leg but her hind leg is he wrong lead. Sometimes she will have both the front and back leads correct when she lopes both directions but most of the time when she lopes, for example to the right she has the correct inside front right lead but the back lead leg instead of being her right hind leg that will lead, it is her be her outside left hind leg that is leading. So instead of her inside front and back lead legs moving at the same time the daigional legs of the front and back are moving together at the same time. Now if you read the first post you will find out what she was diagnosed with but she is still having the same problems as before she was injected. Also she did have her stifles xrayed and they turned out normal. Do you get the idea as to what i am describing as to how she moves at the lope? Have you ever witnessed a horse that did this, and what eles in your opinion could be going on? I am really worried about her. Thanks, Jamie
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 7:15 am:

Jamie just curious, when standing relaxed does she camp under herself? i.e. her back legs are under her more than normal?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 10:25 am:

Jamie reading your first post it is unclear to me how the lameness was localized as radiographs alone can lead you astray (for more see The Diagnosis of Lameness). Was the joint blocked out and the horse go sound?
DrO
Member:
Rodeo87

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 4:16 pm:

No they did not do the numbing on her to localize the pain. The vet diagnosed her from the xrays of the hock. Also no she doesnt camp under her self.
Member:
Caymie

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 6:58 pm:

Hi Jamie,
One of the many things I did learn throughout our four battle with my horse's hock problem is that radiographs of those low motion joints can trick you. There are some horses that have way worse changes on the radiographs than my horse's did, that do not exhibit lameness from it. To look at my horse's radiographs, you wouldn't believe that he has as severe of a problem as he does. My guess would be that the source of your horse's pain is quite possibly coming from somewhere else. I would insist on a very thorough lameness exam that includes blocking, not just diagnosing via x-rays. Good luck and keep us posted.
Mary
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 6:23 am:

I agree with Mary, the first step is to establish within a greater degree of certainty where the pain is coming from and blocking the leg starting at the bottom and working your way up to the hocks is the best way to do this if the physical exam does not locate the source of pain. Flexion tests are not reliable enough to localize. For more on all this see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
DrO
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