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Discussion on Severe puncture would in chest of yearling
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 4:13 pm:
Hi Dr. O
yesterday afternoon, my yearling gelding was rough housing and reared up and came down on top of a steel picket and lodged it into the "V" of his chest.
(we have all T-posts covered, and yesterday morning we noticed one was pulled off and were going to replace it the afternoon  ]
My husband went out to feed them hay at 11:00am and noticed my yearling standing quietly with some blood on the front of his coat.
He went over and found a gaping hole in his chest. We called the vet immediately and luckily she was 5 minutes away. We brought him into the warm garage and he was sedated so she could see the damage.
He obviously penetrated the steel post directly into his chest more than 8" deep. The vet was able to stick her hand inside his chest and was up to almost her elbow. Of course, I was of absolutely no use and was crying so bad, thankfully my husband could help.
She said that he was extremely lucky as no arteries or any organs or anything were touched, it was all muscle that it tore, a puncture about 2" in diameter and 8" + deep.
She cleaned it for a good hour with a saline solution and then decided because of the depth that she would suture up some of the muscles and also suture the outside.
She didn't recommend cold hosing but just to wash it daily and keep it clean (our temps here are very cold -20 Celcius) so cold hosing is possible but not ideal.
I have him on bute for comfort and she prescribed 7 Novatrimel (sp?) tablets twice daily.
I spent most of the night last night in the barn, and he was eating, drinking and acting like a typical baby, a bit stiff, but still willing to walk around in his stall and look for treats. This morning, a little bit of swelling, but the vet came back today and said she couldn't believe how good it looked.
Because of the location of it, it is impossible to bandage, and I will continue to clean it morning and night, but do you recommend cold hosing as well, even with it being closed. We are keeping a close eye on it, and if it starts to swell and become uncomfortable, the vet will take out the stitches.
She seems to think he will make a complete recovery and where the wound is, should result in little to no noticable scaring.
My purpose for this yearling is to show halter, so of course, scaring isn't a good thing and I want to do as much as possible to prevent any noticeable scaring.
I read your articles and you suggested applying Nolvasan based creams or nitrofuran sprays.
Which would you recommend would be best for this type of puncture. Obviously flies are not a problem, so maybe a Nolvasan cream?
He is confined to his stall now, but we are walking him 4 times a day to keep the swelling down.
It just makes me sick to think about this and wonder how he ever got himself off of the post without tearing his chest completely apart. The post wasn't even bent, there was only a little blood on it and a bit of flesh.
I feel so stupid for not putting that cap back on the t-Post immediately but I looked around in the pasture for it and couldn't find it, so had to go to the feedstore to get some more, and he has now payed the price for that. What are the chances that he would come down on the only one that didn't have a cover?? 
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Member:
sparky
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 4:22 pm:
Shawna - that sounds awful! But also sounds like it could not have happened at a better time with you and the vet close. I posted some pictures in 2004 of a friends colt that we had to bandage a chest wound. I tried to bring it up and the only way was to do a search on my name - Janet Schmidt and then look at the one that said 'wound protection"
The country bandage as we called it worked really well and he had a warDrObe of about 3 shirts that we used.
Good luck and I hope this helps. Don't beat yourself up too badly - you were in the process of rectifying the problem - sometimes crap happens.
Janet
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 4:53 pm:
I have posted this photo before.. We used old lady underwear and put a baby diaper inside.. this worked perfectly keeping the wound covered and the flys out..
good luck..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 5:06 pm:
Shawna. I was at a clinic last spring where I met another HA member and the host's horse impaled herself on a cement filled metal post in the same area but this post was at least 3-4 inches in diameter and it ripped her chest completely back to the armpit. It was a horrifying injury and we just kept her warm trying to treat the shock until the vet came well over 2 hours after they found her. Luckily he was able to sew her up where she stood but she was not able to move because of the extensive damage so they had to put up a paddock around this mare where she stood for four days until she was able to walk. Last I heard the mare a full full recovery and is back to normal activity and it only took about two months. I am unsure of the scarring but she had lost so much blood volume and our first thought was she was surely going to die so even if she did have some scarring that was a blessing if you think of the alternative.
With that being said the fact that you had immediate intervention and he is already hand walking is a good thing. As for scarring time will have to wait and see but at least the injury was not fatal which it very well could have been if it struck vital organs. I can not toute the virtues of the wound care listed on this site enough, it is time consuming but it has helped many many animals, mine included.
I posted on that incident and there was a good discussion on fencing that might prevent further injuries as well ideas for how to cover the tops of the T posts to decrease the chances of a similar injury in the future but I can't recall what I posted under. I will have a look and let you know. Good luck and so sorry your boy had to endure such an injury. Thank goodness he has such good owners.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 5:08 pm:
P.S. Thanks Ann...I used your idea (but little swimmers diapers instead of the underware) to dress a wound on my dog when he was attacked by another dog and it worked wonders. I now keep underware and diapers in my medical bags!
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 6:01 pm:
Good idea Corrine and Ann; I'll add those to my medical bag along with the sanitary napkins. Leilani
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Oh Shawna, I am sorry to hear about your little guy! Boy, your luck is not good right now.  Murphy's Law says that he would jump on that post only hours before you fixed it. I like the undies idea. Please post some pictures of that if you try it!
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Member:
ribbons
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 1:37 am:
Sorry your little one had such a mishap.My first horse, which I had as a kid, did the same thing. I was amazed that she made a full recovery pretty quickly with no problems or terrible scar, but 30 years later, I distinctly remember the horror of seeing that perfect "V" puncture in her chest from the post. First thing I did when I got my own place five years ago was to run around and cover all the T-Posts on my property.I have been putting off my fence checking and I will be out in the morning checking to see if any are missing! Best of luck on your yearlings recovery. I bet he will be just fine.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 6:52 am:
Shawna, this is a commonly occurring wound that heals very well. Usually other than the outer layer of muscle these wounds tend to dissect between muscle bellies rather than tearing the muscles themselves. If the wound is completely sutured, why would you want to treat it? The bottom line here is you should follow your veterinarians directions here.
DrO
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 11:22 am:
Gwen, yes my luck isn't with me lately at all. It has been a trying year, with my other geldings diagnosis and now this. My vet did say that this always happens to the horse owners that are the most careful! What were the chances he would get lodged on the only tpost that didn't have the cover! At least he will be OK, and it wasn't more serious. I count my blessings for that.
I was to bring our new filly home this weekend, but called them and said with everything that just happened, I would like to wait another week or 2, so I can tend to my little guy.
He is doing well and back to his old self. I was mucking him out last night, and he grabbed the bucket and flipped it upside down, and was tearing around his stall like a mad man. I snuck out last night, and he was lying down very peacefully, but when he noticed he jumped up thinking he was in for some treats and when I was handwalking him last night, he was full of beans! So it appears all is well, so I am very relieved. His mother is very accident prone,and it appears that trait didn't fall too far from the tree.
Thanks all for your wishes and advice. The vet said not to worry about covering it, and she came out yesterday and couldn't believe how good it looked. Very little swelling and she was pleased with the way it was healing. The healing process is truly a miracle in itself.
Dr.O. I was just inquiring about the creams and such, because of what your articles suggested. I was just wondering if it would benefit by putting on a cream but if you think I should just leave it alone, then that is what I will do.
I did stop by the supply store last night and found a Nitrofurazone cream, but didn't want to put it on until I heard what your thoughts were.
My vet just told me to keep it clean so I guess that is what I will do and not treat it with anything. Thanks.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 7:31 pm:
Shawna, so sorry about your colt; but, it sounds like he's doing good. I had a yearling do this to herself, in the same location, on the latch of her stall door. She was being led into the stall, the bolt wasn't slid into the back position. For some reason she jumped sideways and stabbed herself on the bolt. This, of course, was one week before her futurity class that we had been readying her for months! She healed up great; you couldn't even see the scar after a while. (And, she got to stay home while all the other little horses won her futurity money, the little brat!)
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:52 pm:
Sara, at least our futurities aren't until September, but our first show is coming up the end of April. The main thing is he recovers... I don't mind missing a few shows.
I have the vet coming back out this afternoon. The wound was sutured, and was continuing to drain, from a small spot she had left open. It looked really good, and I have been cleaning it with a saline solution twice daily, but last night it was a mess. I think he done something yesterday and it looks like most of the stitches have dislodged and I now have a gaping hole. And my stomach isn't that strong to really get in there and have a good look. I was getting very queezy last night and again this morning.
The temps aren't helping either. Our barn isn't warm and the outside temps are -25 so I am having a hard time cold hosing. I brought him into the heated shop last night and flushed it out with cold water and a large syringe about 30 times. Then finished off with a Saline flush.
Did the same thing again this morning, but waiting on the vet to see what she recommends now. She was coming out this Saturday to take out the sutures, but now with most of them out, I don't know what to do.
There is still very little swelling, and it doesn't appear to be bothering him with pain, but I am a little concerned with the puss like fluid that seems to be draining.
Will update after this aft when the vet comes out. I did take pics, so when I get a chance, will upload them.
Babies!!
Thank goodness for this site and all of Dr. O's articles!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 12:14 am:
I sympathize regarding the cold! We've warmed up now, but had the same temps you're having. It's been quite the winter for most of us; and it does make it a lot harder to treat wounds...and to do everything else.
I think if you can keep the wound clean, it will heal up o.k. I've seen some really terrible looking wounds that have healed up with barely a scar. Once at the vet's a mare came in that looked like she'd tried to cut her head off. She'd run into a barb wire fence. The owners wanted to put her down, but the vet kept her and three months later she had a fine scar and that is all.
Hang in there! Stay warm.
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Member:
freshman
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 3:27 am:
I think that it is pretty normal for wounds like this to dehisce and discharge some amount of ugly stuff as it heals. Most of these wounds look worse than ever at about week or so after the initial injury. As long as the colt is bright, alert, and eating, has no fever, pain, or smell to the wound or the discharge, I'd bet that all is well.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:22 am:
Shawna, could we have a image of the wound?
DrO
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 1:59 pm:
Hi Dr. O
Having a hard time getting a good shot of the wound, but here are a couple. The first one when it was sutured and the second one yesterday just after I cold hosed it.
I have made a contraption for him to keep it covered. I have him in an old t-Shirt, baby diaper and lots of duct tape!
Vet recommended the following treatement:
Flush with Lact-R sterile lactaide injection solution (contains sodium, potassium, calcium, chloride, lactate - total cations anions 137 meq) 3-4 times daily, then either put a sugar poultice on it and cover it, or use the Nitrofurazone cream I had picked up earlier in the week on it, whatever I found easier.
I asked her about cold hosing, and she said she would continue with the solution she gave me instead of cold hosing, and I believe it is because of the cold temps here.
But, I know according to your articles, that some solutions may actually kill some good cells, so I would prefer to cold hose instead if you think this would be best. We have a good setup now, because I am bringing him into our heated shop, where there is a hose and can hose him and keep him in there until he dries off. Would you agree that the cold hosing is definitely the best practice instead of the solution she left me?
And what about the sugar? Do you have any comments on this.
I did pick up a Nitrofurazone cream and have been using it instead of the sugar. What do you
What I have been doing since the vet visit yesterday is as follows:
- Cold hosing 3-4 times daily for 3 minutes
- Flushing it with a Saline solution before I put on the dressing
- I soak some gauze with Saline and then spread it with the Nitrofurazone cream and apply it directly on the wound
- Put on his diaper and t-shirts to keep the dressing in place
Just wondering if you have any comments on what I am doing, or if I am on the right track.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:13 pm:
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:14 pm:
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:33 pm:
Shawna , that wound looks like it is WEEKS old.. I am just saying that the colt above took weeks to look that good  >.. I cold hosed it clean daily wiped out inside as you can see there was a huge cavity that would fill with gunk.. Don't remember actually dressing it with anything other then the diaper and panties..
I would guess this will heal without a scare.. the above has a very slight one and I am the only one that notices it..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:55 pm:
Pretty, Shawna. I actually just met a horse with an old injury like this. (The one I posted as a prospect!) It looks like it is in the same spot. One piece of caution (just because of what I learned from the other horse), is that I think his club foot was a result of not using the injured leg for a while. Not trying to spread panic, just want to make sure I told you! I wish you would put the undies on him. 
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 3:16 pm:
Ann, thanks for those comments. Kinda gives me a sigh of relief to here that. Maybe because it was sutured for a few days, the healing happened a bit quicker?? I am also glad to hear that your little guy recovered nicely without scaring. It sure looked like a bad wound too so it is nice to know that they heal so quickly.
I will be interested in Dr. O's comments, because maybe I shouldn't be putting a dressing on it at all.
Question, I have looked at your pics of the undies on your colt, and I can't figure out how you got them to work. Last night I ended up putting an old T-Shirt on him, cutting it open in the back, and then used a bunch of duct tape to keep everything in place.
When he went back to his stall, ( I just rebedded with fresh straw) and he rolled about 3 times. I thought to myself, if that outfit lasts through his bucking and rearing and rolling episode, then it should last until the next hosing. And sure enough, it did. I went out this morning and everything was still in place. If you can give me some hints on the undie idea, I will give it a try. It looks much neater than my outfit!
The vet is coming back out this evening to ultrasound to see if she can see any infection pockets. But I guess things are going well.
Gwen, Thanks for the note of caution, but so far so good. This guy isn't showing any pain whatsoever, and has never favoured his leg yet, but I would definitely keep that in mind. The problem now we are having is keeping him decently quiet. He is so full of it and he is acting no different that he did before this all happened.
Will keep you posted!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 3:48 pm:
Shawna its been some time since the above injury but from what I remember I took a LARGE pair of woman's undies and put his head thru the waist hole, You can see it was stretched greatly, and his legs thru the leg holes with the widest / butt part of the undies on his chest.. You will have to take your scissors to do some cutting to make them fit.. I used Vet wrap and elastican tape to keep it on.. I might have used some duck tape but don't recall the diaper stayed in place I really don't recall doing anything to keep it in place either .. I only cleaned his wound once a day.. It never was infected.. and this wound was done by a young mountain lion.. The field and game feel that it was a young cub learning how to hunt.. The mare and this colt were the only ones in the pasture.. We think the mare DrOve the lion off and to add to the story.. I had them at a friends field while we were making ours 'safe' the couple were turning off lights around midnight and heard my mare screaming and running the fence line.. she was running up to the house and back to her colt.. She saved him I firmly believe.. If she had not been running the fence to the house they would not have found him till morning.. most likely he would have been cat food. ! Remember I am the one that has the 5 % barn, only the strangest least likely will happen to us.. !~
Oh~ the colt is the one in my profile.. Did nothing for his level of freedom in the shoulder!~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 4:23 pm:
So glad your guy is doing better Shawna. And Ann so that is how you got the underware to work...I wound up having to rig diapers but couldn't figure out the underware either. My husband, just today, found the diapers in the bathroom closet that I had used for my dogs bite wounds in the same spot on his chest and wanted to know if I was planning on becoming an astronaut stalker. LOL (you will get that if you are keeping up with the news!)
Hope the healing continues Shawna good work!
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 5:10 pm:
Good one, Corinne
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:31 pm:
Shawna, that wound looks good, imo. I've had a lot worse on one of our foals and it healed up great. Like has been said, just keep it clean. It looks like you are doing great so far. I agree that unless it is really gunky looking and smelly, the drainage is normal.
Corinne, I don't know about the diapers...I've heard you military types get a little weird!
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:47 pm:
The vet was out this afternoon and ultrasounded the area to look for pockets of infection, which she didn't find, so that sounds good.
I wanted to clarify my above post. The solution that I said she was asking me to put on it is completely wrong (I think) It is simply an iodine solution, in a completely different bottle, with the label above. I started reading it tonight and it said that it is used to prevent dehydration in cows, sheep, horses etc. So I highly doubt that that would also keep infection at bay! My apologies for the confusion.
So her recommendations to flush twice with a 60ML syringe 2 - 3 times a day with this iodine solution right into the cavity of the wound, what is your personal feeling on this? It is discharging great amounts of yucky stuff, and because it was so deep (8" or more) she wants the iodine to kill any possible infection. She did say that it will kill off some good cells, but still recommends it.
He is still on his novo-trimel tablets, so is the iodine wash necessary? Or as everyone else has done, just cold hosing enough?
Thanks Ann for the clarification on the "undies" I rigged him up tonight, but I used X-Large Depends instead. Which are like old lady undies, but they are disposable. They worked great, and are nice and stretchy and very absorbant. He looks much classier than the rolls and rolls of duct tape!! I took a picture of him tonight with his new "Gettup" so I will post tomorrow.
I can say that my stomach is getting a lot less queezy with all this doctoring of this wound. Before I almost passed out at the sight of blood, but it is funny how you manage when you have to.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:51 pm:
BTW Anne, Your little colt was very lucky. What a scary situation. Thank goodness for a persistant mare. He is gorgeous and I am glad everything worked out!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 7:16 am:
Shawna, as explained in the article iodine (as opposed to povidone or tamed iodine) should be avoided because it harms healthy tissue. It has been shown in experiments with dipping placentas in foals to actually promote the very serious gram positive anaerobes. I would care for this wound as described in our article on long term wound care.
The photo shows a wound that should heal well with minimal complication because it is well open and drains ventrally. I would like a little better focus and detail though: is there a lot of torn up tissue in the wound?
DrO
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 9:34 am:
Dr O
Sorry if this is a dumb question: Would the extreme cold (-6F, -29F with wind chill) provide an antiseptic environment ... assuming stuff can be kept out of the wound?
Shawna, remember I am not far away if you need help...(I think my email address is on my profile)
Cheryl
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 10:04 am:
Dr. O
I am unsure if it is providone, or tamed iodine but will confirm that with my vet. But until I do, I will only cold hose.
I will try and get better photos for you.
As for the tissue, there is only one puncture tear in the tissue, and you can see that tear in the above picture, to the right of the wound near the blue stitches. That is where she wants me to spray in the iodine solution she left for me. It is draining lots of gunk from that spot.
Thanks Cheryl for the offer. I might email you for some moral support. My husband has been great in helping me so far. I just wish this weather would warm up a bit. I guess this weekend it is calling for nicer temps!
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 10:21 am:
Here he is in his "Depends" They worked great, and stayed right in place all night, and it only takes me a few minutes to get him dressed, which is better than the first couple of nights with the t-shirt. They are nice, because they have the flexible legs, so they don't seem to pinch anywhere, and give with him when he moves, but also keep everything covered.
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Member:
sonoita
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 10:42 am:
Shawna,
Do not beat yourself up over this. I have tops on all my t-post and my horse plays with them. So needless to say I spend a lot of time putting them back on. You have a beautiful baby.
Hope he recovers soon. Good luck!
Happy Trails
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 10:51 am:
He looks manly in his Depends.. !~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Yes he looks much more manly than our dog did lin his Little Swimmer's with sponge Bob square pants logo! Glad to hear thing are going well and you are doing a great job!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 7:49 pm:
He must be a pretty good little guy to put up with all your doctoring in the shed away from the barn!
Is that snow that has blown under the door? Looks cold!
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:05 am:
Dr. O
I had a hard time getting any better shots, but maybe the following is a bit better so see. You will notice the tear in the flesh. It is draining very well, but it is draining stuff that is very yellowish red and bubbly. Is this normal? I am spraying the water up inside the tear in the flesh and then finish it off with a squirt of Saline solution up into the cavity as well. Maybe I shouldn't be doing that?
I am noticing a bit of granulation tissue on around the outside of the skin.
You mentioned the tearing of the flesh, since there is, should I be concerned about other things?
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:06 am:
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:09 am:
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:19 am:
Sarah,
Yes, he is being a very good boy. But he has been handled lots and he has been out to a few shows back when he was a weanling by himself, so he is used to being away from the others. Every since he was about 2 months old, I would take him on walks around the barns and away from the others, just so he wouldn't be heard bound and to get used to different sights and sounds. He just goes anywhere we are, and as long as we are there, he couldn't care less about the others.
It is funny, because the shed that we bring him in has lots of equipment, big huge ceiling fans, a furnace that clicks on and off, etc, so he is becomming pretty well bomb proof now. Last night, one of guys that works for us, took a hose off the compressor, so it made lots of noise and he just looked towards the noise and never even moved. (that was at the same time I was taking the pics, so I was glad!)
I am lucky that we have the spot to bring him in to cold hose him and let him dry before we take him back outside. Our ritual usually consists of him in the shop with us for about and hour at a time - 4 times a day. The guys that work for us are getting pretty used to him in there. We were first bringing him in the big garage door, now he walks right in the side door that we use. I can't complain, he is being a very good patient.
That was snow under the door. We had crazy winds the last 2 days and bitterly cold, but it is a bit warmer today.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 8:35 am:
Those are better images, and I don't see any dead tissue, my concern with a lot of tearing. Is there a reason for doing this 4 times a day?
DrO
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 3:55 pm:
Thanks Dr. O. That is a relief
My vet recommended 3-4 times a day, so I was going for the 4. But if you don't think that is necessary, then I would be more than willing to decrease it to 2 times if that would be enough.
I have discontinued the Nitrofurazone ointment. It looked good for a week, but on Saturday, the wound looked very red, and that was one of the warnings on the label, if redness appears, consult your vet. So she agreed to discontinue use of it, and we are back to the sugar.
Clarification on the iodine. The solution my gave me to flush the wound with was a Betadine solution. Is this not the same as provodine? and if so, this isn't as harsh as Iodine correct?
I can't find the article you referred to about Iodine. Can you point me in the right direction please Dr. O.
The wound appears to be filling in. Vet was back out on the weekend and took out the internal stitches, as well as the few remaining that were still holding on the outside.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 3:58 pm:
Sorry, there was one internal stitch that was protruding, so she removed it, and the few remaining outside ones.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:06 pm:
Perhaps your veterinarian could explain why 4 times a day? I have a hard time finding such a indication. Yes Betadine is a 8 or 9% povidone solution.
DrO
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:35 am:
Hi,
Just thought I would post a pic of the wound 3 weeks from the time it happened. I think it looks good and am impressed the way it has healed so far.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:36 am:
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:38 am:
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 1:10 pm:
Shawna, does that ever look good! Hard to believe when you look at the "before" pictures!
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Member:
freshman
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 7:24 pm:
WOW WOW WOW! That looks great, Shawna!
I'm glad that you have taken photos of the wound as it heals. It has really let us seen how something like this progresses. And how it can have good result after looking so horrible at first. So glad that he is doing well!
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 6:20 am:
Looks good, Shawna. I couldn't help thinking when I read your post about you bringing him into the work station, that although this is a HUGE pain in the neck (shoulder) for you, it is helping him in the long run. On SOME level, it made me think that everything happens for a reason! Although your boy may have a blemish for the long haul, he will also be a better boy for it! PS, is this the little chestnut that you had posted pictures of several months ago-you know, the one I fell in love with??
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:32 am:
It looks well granulated in and the margins of the skin well adhered to the granulation bed. I do wish the bottom photo a bit more in focus but it looks good. What is your daily care and treatment like at this point?
DrO
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Member:
sonoita
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 1:21 pm:
Looks good . Good Job!
Happy Trails
WOW
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Member:
boomer
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 1:47 pm:
Great job! Looks fantastic!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:15 am:
Can't believe it's healed so well in only 3 weeks. Well done!
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:45 am:
A very hopeful documentary, Shawna. If we can picture the healing when we first find the injury, it will help us handle the shock of the incidence in a much more confident manner.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 1:52 pm:
Thanks all for the comments. I am very impressed on how it has healed. There is still a bit of an indent, but I am hoping that will all smooth out, but I am amazed at how quickly these things heal. And it has been so cold in our parts, I thought that that would delay healing, but it hasn't seem to. I have kept it covered with "depends" so I guess it is staying a bit warmer than if it wasn't covered.
Method of treatment throughout the past 4 weeks is as follows:
Week 1 - Cold hosing 4 times daily and dressing it with a Nitorfurazone cream but after 4 days of the Nitrofurazone cream, the injury got very red looking, so the vet recommended using sugar instead of the cream.
Week 2 - Cold hosing 2 times daily and flushing inside the wound with a Betadine solution and then packing the wound with sugar and cover
Week 3 - Cold hosing once daily, flushing with betadine and packing with sugar and cover
Current mode of treatment (week 4) - Cold hosing once daily, wound is now healed over so cannot flush with Betadine. Now applying a honey/sugar mixture to the wound and keeping it covered with a diaper.
It was amazing how quickly it started to heal from the inside out, it seemed to happen overnight. In the beginning, the puncture was very deep, and after the first week, we could get a syringe up inside to squirt the betadine solution.
After the second week, we could only get the syringe up about 3" and last week, only the tip up inside. As of this weekend, 3 and 1/2 weeks after the initial injury, it has completely closed over and I am no longer syringing with the Betadine.
Gwen, no this isn't the little guy you fell in love with. I believe that was my 4 year old "wobbler" boy you commented on back then.
And you are right, he is now my little bomb proof yearling. Nothing phazes him, so all in all, if he makes a full recovery, it has made him a better boy in the end. Blemish or no blemish
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Member:
pbauer
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 2:32 pm:
Dear Shawna,
I, too, want to thank you for your helpful and hopeful documentary. The lessons learned...back and forth interactions... in the process have been invaluable to me...and I think to all of us.
Again, thank you for taking the time to help educate me
Best,
Tonya
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 2:43 pm:
Congrats on the wound healing. Just curious why did the vet recommend using sugar and honey? Wouldn't that be an environment that bacteria would love? Very curious as I have never heard of this.
Thanks,
Corinne
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 3:26 pm:
Corinne,
I too was skeptical about the sugar and honey, but after the nitrofurazone made the wound look very "nasty" I decided to try it. And she had recommended the sugar right from the beginning. Pack it with sugar, and in the beginning, when the wound was oozing, the sugar alone with the moisture of the wound made it like a paste. Now that the wound is dried up and healed over, I am now mixing it with honey just so it will adhere better to the wound.
I asked the vet why Sugar and/or honey, and she said that both act as a natural "antibiotic" and kill off infection. And that they both act as a fuel for new growth.
Dr. O: I asked you this before, have you heard of honey or sugar being used like this.
On a side note, she prescribed this on a cow who had some kind of infection that the skin on her shoulder fell completely off and the bone was exposed. This was not one of her regular clients, but she was the on call that evening. She said the wound was 3 times the size of the one my colt had. The owner asked her to recommend anything that she could think because this was one of his best cows and the other vets thought he would loose her, so she recommended the sugar and honey, not thinking it would do much for this case, but in 9 weeks, the wound was completely healed over and hair beginning to grow.
She swears by this remedy and was kicking herself when she told me to go ahead and try the nitrofurazone cream. When it made the would look nasty and red, she told me to switch over to the sugar, that she has always had such good luck with it.
Now, I have used Iodine and sugar solution on hoof absesses. I always wondered why use sugar for that too. I thought it was to act as a poultice to draw out anything, but maybe it is just for infection as well??
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 7:26 pm:
Hello Shawna,
Let's start with the nitrofurazone and the redness. Hypersensitivity (allergic reactions) is a common problem with it's repeated use and one not only that horses get but people to and the reason for the warning.
We have had previous discussions on the use of sugar for wounds and abscesses. Normally it is mixed with betadine and dubbed "sugardine". It is often used in burn units of hospitals for severe wounds. The reason for its use is several fold, first the sugar is surprisingly antimicrobial (have you ever seen anything grow in an open sugar bowel?) while being easy on the tissue. But it's main property is it's strong osmotic properties that allows it to draw large amounts of excessive exudate from wounds like is seen with burns. You could see this is a good property also for treating abscess where you wish to draw the purulent fluid.
DrO
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Member:
annaspop
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 8:22 pm:
My dog developed a hot spot once when we were on a long road trip. I grabbed a packet of sugar every time we stopped at a restaurant and put it on the sore. It healed beautifully and quickly. An old MD told me that they used to use it for bed sores.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 2:41 pm:
Thanks for the info Dr. O.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 3:36 pm:
Thanks for the explanation as well! I have worked with burn patients before and have not seen it used, however it was usually to stabilize the patient so they could be sent to the burn unit as our primary mission was the airway, breathing, circulation etc in the unit. Very interesting.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 7:31 pm:
The most recent reference of its use in human hospitals in this country that I can find is almost 10 years old and the US appears to have moved to silver sulphadiazine or povidone/neosporin paste in the past 10 - 20 years.
DrO
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 8:07 pm:
That would make sense that I have not seen it used since I have only been a nurse since late 1996. I am surprised that when I learned combat nursing that I didn't hear about it however as I can learned to use the craziest treatments with the oddest of items! It was all about improvization out in the field.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:16 pm:
Hi all,
I was just going through some pictures and found this one of my yearlings wound 6 weeks after it had happened. It isn't the greatest pic, but you get the idea of how it has healed.
This picture was taken 6 weeks from the day of the accident. Today, you can't even notice the mark. Amazing how well they heal.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:48 pm:
I had forgotten about that! Great news, Shawna.
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 4:07 pm:
Gwen, yes, he has totally recovered, and will be going to his first show next weekend in Michigan, so looking forward to it. I would never have thought a few months ago it would have healed like this.
I also wanted to apologize to you for I made a mistake on this thread when you asked if this was the little guy you fell in love with. I originally said no, but it was him that you had commented on earlier. My apologies for the mix up. Hope all is well with your guy!
Shawna
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:49 pm:
Shawna, thank goodness they do heal up! Good luck on your show! Let us know how he does.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 9:07 am:
Thanks for the update Shawna, when you look at the severity of the wound in the beginning the results are very good.
DrO
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