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  Discussion on .Two choke episodes
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Member:
Jessie

Posted on Monday, Oct 28, 2002 - 1:53 pm:

We have had two horses at my boarding barn choke within the past month. Both are fed grain (premixed sweet feed) twice a day and hay once a day in addition to approximately 8-10 hours of pasture per day. Each time, the horse choked after coming in from pasture to grain in the feed bin and hay on the stall floor. We surmise, based on what the vet saw when each horse was tubed, that these horses both grabbed a fairly large mouthful of hay then started eating grain quickly. Both were fine when they came in and started choking within about 10 minutes of beginning to eat. The first horse was tubed, blockage was cleared and after several days of restricted diet (no hay, grain with water and limited grazing) is fine. We continue to add water to her grain and have also put 2-3 smooth rocks in her feed bin. No additional problems in this mare. The second incident occurred last night. The vet treatment was the same although the vet was unable to get the tube all the way to her stomach. Water was flowing freely through the tube. Bute (paste) was given for pain and inflammation and all food was removed from her stall. This morning, she had not drank water overnight and was still lethargic so the vet was to come back out mid-day to recheck. I have not heard results from that exam.

After reading the article on choke it seems as though we need to change our feeding regime in order to prevent this. I spoke with the farm manager last night and we thought we might try feeding hay after the horses finish with the grain. However, after reading that hay is rarely the cause of choke I don't know that this is the best course. The two incidents, one shortly after the other, concern us enough to relook at what we are doing. We will also be putting smooth rocks in the feed bin of the second horse and will add water to her food at least for some time after she recovers from this episode.

Any other suggestions from Dr. O or members who have similar experiences? Thanks! Jessie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 7:27 am:

Hello Jessie,
I think it makes more sense to present the hay first allow the horses to partially satiate their hunger so that they may not so prone to wolf down the grain. Is the pasture bare?
DrO
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 9:33 am:

Dr. O, just the opposite, the pasture is in excellent shape, particularly after the rains the past 6 weeks. Neither of these horses is lacking for food and both are on the high side of the weight/condition scale.

The second mare to choke was still in bad shape yesterday morning and the vet retubed (successfully this time) mid day yesterday and by last night her demeanor was near normal. We are keeping her on small portions of bran mash for several days to avoid irritating her esophagus and will continue to restrict grazing on the vet's advice through Friday.

I will discuss your suggestion of hay first, then grain with the farm manager. Because we had great pasture all summer, we have only recently started feeding hay, after several months of no hay. Perhaps the horses, not being accustomed to it were gulping both hay and grain, contributing to the problem.

As always, thanks for the advice.
Jessie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 7:25 pm:

The fact that the pasture is excellent suggests that they probably do not come in famished and that feeding hay first will not be all that helpful. Hmmm....it may have just been coincidence, choke is a prety common event and frequently there seems to be no reason, how many horses are in this barn?
DrO
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 2:27 pm:

Dr. O. there are 17 horses at the boarding facility. It seemed more than a coincidence since we have had only one other choke incident, about 4 years ago in an aged pony who was on pasture 24/7 and had almost no teeth. We will certainly continue to be observant and try to pinpoint the horses that may be prone to choke from gulping food but after much discussion and thought, we are leaning towards coincidence. Thanks, Jessie
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Monday, Nov 4, 2002 - 10:20 am:

Dr. O and all, an update. These same two mares choked again on Sat evening - at the same time! The farm manager and I were doing the evening feeding. It was late and cold and we had been working all day so we put the grain and the hay in the stalls before letting the horses in. Yes, we were stupid and won't do that again. This time, we saw the incidents from start to finish. Both mares ran into their stalls, grabbed a large mouthful of hay before beginning to gulp their grain. Both continue to have their grain feed with lots of water. Within a minute or two both started to choke. The first mare of the two incidents had a small lump at the top of her neck which we massaged and broke up. She coughed a couple of times and cleared the obstruction. The other mare, although probably not a true choke, was having problems swallowing. There didn't seem to be an obstruction, more like a sore throat that makes it hard to swallow. This was the mare that choked just last week and we think that her esophagus was still sore and the hay irritated it. We gave her acepromazine, left by the vet last week, and she was fine.

Although the article here and others we've read say hay is rarely the cause of choke we still believe the mouthful of hay before the gluttonous gulping of grain (even wet) caused these problems.

Mostly, our response is shame on us for not sticking ALWAYS with our plan to feed the grain first and hay after the grain is finished. Both mares are doing fine now and we will be diligent in sticking with the feeding regime we've set. We are also putting hayracks up in the stalls of these mares so they cannot grab large mouthfuls of hay.
Jessie
Member:
Westks

Posted on Monday, Nov 4, 2002 - 11:50 am:

I have a intense difference of opinion here. I have found that always in my experience that horses that choke or colic are completely removed from episodes of both by feeding hay first and an hour or so later given grain. If I wet something it is the hay, and I feed usually a Vitamen E enriched soybean oil/Or wheat germ oil on the grain. On aged/ or overweight horses that I do not wish to give grain to I mix a tablespoon of molasses with the oil and dribble through the hay and kind of rub it in. These horses sound like they are ravenous when they finally get fed, for this type of horse I would give a flake of hay 3 times a day so they weren't so ravenous at evening and morning feedings. Yes it is alot iof extra work but it eliminates alot of vet charges and chances of losing horse altogeather. I have never fed grain before at least 20-30 minutes of hay feeding, but really believe an hour is best.
Member:
Equus

Posted on Monday, Nov 4, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

What type of grain do you feed? Although horses can choke on most anything, I have a gelding that chokes only on pelleted grain.......even when soaked first. I now give him just textured feed and if he is bolting it too quickly, I will mix a little bit of chopped hay (Dengie or showing chaff)in the grain. It works like the smooth rocks in slowing them down, but doesn't frustrate them as much. Since your mares seem to like to mix their grain and hay, this may work for you too. If you are convinced that it is the hay that they are choking on, the chopped hay or chaff is a good idea since it is only about 2 inches in length and cannot bend, twist and compact the same way long stemmed hay can when not chewed sufficiently.

I tend to agree with Janette on feeding regimen and choke causes, but if that is not possible for you, you may wish to consider the chopped hay/sweet feed route.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 4:17 am:

Jessie from your post it is still not clear that the hay caused the problem. You state they begin gulping their grain after taking a bite of hay: it still sounds like the grain to me....but why? I know you are saying it is the combination of a mouthful of hay preceeding grain but I am not really sure this makes sense...it certainly is nothing I have recognized before. I presume this is the same type grain that has been fed for some time(?).

The history of this starting after begining feeding the hay certainly is incriminating but circumstantial...it just is so unusual for horses not to chew their hay well.

Lastly what type hay is it and what is its condition also what type grain are you feeding.
DrO
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 10:14 am:

Probably not the reason, but just in case: are their teeth up to date?
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 10:29 am:

Thanks all for the input. The hay is mixed grass hay, very little dust, sweet smelling. I don't know much else about it as the farm manager buys it out of state. The grain is a textured sweet feed and one mare has been on it for 8 months, the other for approximately 8 years. Our conclusion that the hay was the problem was based on the observation that the mares had a large mouthful of hay, which they could not have had time to chew, followed immediately by the grain. As we saw the incidents this past weekend, we are certain of the time between the mouthful of hay and starting to gulp the grain. The time was no more than it took the mares to walk into the stall, grab the hay, and turn around to the feed bin. I figured they did not completely chew the hay. While I hear what you are saying about hay rarely being the cause, we have not seen this problem at morning feeding when they do not get hay. Mornings we feed grain then turn out to pasture for 10-12 hours. More circumstantial evidence.

We are open to all suggestions as it is frustrating each evening to stand watch over these mares (as well as the other 15 horses) to see if they make it through the meal without problems.

Thanks for all the advice and experiences. We will try some of the suggestions and see what works best. Will update you.
Jessie
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 10:34 am:

Sorry, I missed Melissa's question. Yes, both are up to date on teeth - all our horses are checked spring and fall when they get shots. One was fine in September and the other was floated in September. Jessie
Member:
Oakfarm

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 11:11 am:

well...I think the reason for the 2nd episode is possibly that they might have sore tissue in their throats, making it more difficult for them to swallow.

Is it possible that these horses are not drinking enough water while turned out in the pasture?
and that they therefore are having trouble producing enough saliva?

I do not think it is either the hay or the grain, but just the fact that they are bolting food without chewing it.

I guess I would start by checking their entire mouths-waaay back in the mouth with flashlight/speculum, whatever...to rule out tongue/jaw/tooth problem...and then I'd want to monitor their water for a few days, at least as much as possible.

good luck,
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 5, 2002 - 11:20 am:

I hate to throw more wood on the fire but could there be an element of competition at night? Are these mares being fed last? First? Are they brought in in a herd? Just a thought. I have a pig and it seems to matter to her.

Kerry
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 6, 2002 - 4:11 am:

Taking it from your viewpoinmt Jessie, other than feeding the grain then the hay, I cannot think of another fix. Lita, though it always is worth a look, the fact we have 2 mkaes a specific medical problem less likely. I have thought about Kerry's thoughts and there may be a competitive edge to these two horses wolfing down the food.

I would like to know how this works out Jessie. If it was just one I could shrug my shoulders and say how odd, the fact that it is two suggests you may have stumbled across something of significance. If these two never choke on just grain in the future...maybe there are other chokes where we have not recognized the combination of the two is causing problems.
DrO
Member:
Elsiedar

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 6, 2002 - 6:56 pm:

Jessie,
I have several opinions of why these horses choked from past experiences.

First when there is a lot of moisture in the grass horses seem not to drink as much and so if they are the quick grab gulping type it is easier to choke. The second is that if the two horses are eating side by side and each trying to eat as fast as they can so the other one won't take their food making it a competitive situation.

Regardless of how the choke occurs, the senario resulting from removing the choke blockage could be the cause of repeated choking.

In the process of trying to push the choke down with a tube it is possible to create a tear in the esophagus.

I had a weanling filly that choked and the vet put a tube to dislodge the obstruction. Every time when she was fed hay or grain regardless of the order she choked again. After several days of emergency vet calls, I took her to the vet's clinic and had her neck x-rayed.

What we found was a tear caused by forcing the tube down the esophagus that created a pocket which spread out and stopped everything about halfway to the stomach. At first it looked like surgery was the only option with the directive that if it couldn't be fixed to put her down while under the anthestic.

There was a young vet intern there and he suggested that instead of surgery we put her on a complete pelleted ration for gain and hay and be sure she had plenty of water. We put her in a tie stall to keep her from eating the oat straw bedding. We fed her the grain pellets and hay pellets that when mixed with water would disolve. We kept plenty of fresh water in front of her. We turned her out for exercise several times a day in a total dry lot so she could get anything to chew on. We did this for almost a month and one day turned her out and forgot that a hay delivery had left a bunch of hay swept off the truck laying aroung. When we went to bring her in she was happily eating hay and was chewing and swallowing without a problem.

She was gradually returned to real grain and hay and lived to a ripe old age without further problems.

Elsie
Member:
Elsiedar

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 6, 2002 - 7:02 pm:

Jessie,

I just wanted to add that the size of the tube used by some vets can be a little too large and if the edge of the end of the tube is a bit sharp that can cause a tear if it is forced a little to fast in an effort to give the horse relief. Also if the horse struggles it makes it hard to keep the tube from being abrasive against the esophagus.

Elsie
New Member:
Mattie

Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2003 - 7:39 am:

Hi
I run a school with horses that are leased so I do not know their histories. My oldest horse (ancient) choked last night. The strange coincidence is that he choked right after being brought in off pasture to eat his grain. He always gulps the first two bites like a ravenous beast, always. I know pelleted feed causes more choke than sweet-feed types, but this is a senior feed extruded type pellet and very soft. The strange thing is that he came in, took two bites of pellets and began to choke. I checked out his neck and there was a huge bolus. I massaged it gently and there were air and the saliva sounds in his throat and the air escaping smelled like chewed grass. The vet told me to try getting some warm water down his throat and massaging gently and sure enough he cleared the obstuction. I feel that part of the grass did not go down and then more and more grass kept piling up on top of it. When he gulped the grain, that was the incident that manifested the actual choke, but I think the non-chewed grass was the culprit. Maybe that is the case with the other two mares of Jessies, the stage was set for the choke, the grain and bite of hay just threw it into gear. I like trying the warm water doses first (a turkey baster works well), before tubing because of the risk of stretching and tearing the esophagus. I will only feed the beet pulp today and a little grain tonight to see how he handles it, no grass.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2003 - 8:02 am:

Hello Mattie,
Almost instantly when a horse chokes you see the clinical signs: if he had choked on pasture he would have come in looking choked. The vast majority of chokes that I see happen just exactly as you describe, and it is the concentrate that causes the problems, not the forage. I have seen chokes on all sorts of concentraties including straight grains.
DrO
Member:
Mattie

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 19, 2003 - 12:36 pm:

Thank you for the comment Dr O - He has not choked since 9 March and I have my fingers crossed! I have read all the posts and the advice will help so much if it happens again!
Mattie
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