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  Discussion on Could this be WNV
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Member:
dtranch

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:26 am:

Dr O.
Have read the articles and discussions and it leads me to believe that this may be a WNV case.
My neighbors found their 7yo gelding down in the pasture in an icy area, so assumed he had gotten injured falling on ice.
When they called me, I examined the horse and found the following:
I was able to get him up, and found him to be very unstable. When I tried to move him, he would nearly collapse forward and I would push him back up. They told me he had fallen several times and had hit his nose on the ground. He was bleeding from the nose, so I assumed that to be from the falling.
I examined his mouth and found his teeth were clamped down on his tongue and I had a terrible time getting his mouth open enough to relocate the tongue. I immediately noticed a horrible smell from his mouth, and his tongue and gums seemed pale. His eyes were very dull and lethargic.
I found no sign of any physical injuries, but whenever I could get him to walk, he would veer horribly to the left totally off balance. His hip and flank area were shivering, but it was extremely cold so thought that to be the cause. At any rate, he didn't seem to have control of his limbs. Finally, he went down again and appeared to give up and I was sure he would be gone in a matter of minutes. I left with the neighbor indicating he was going to have the horse euthanized.
The next evening when I got home from work, the neighbor called again and told me the horse was up, but had fallen through the fence. I can't believe this horse had enough heart to get up again, and was still hanging on. I spent the rest of the evening getting him to the barn .. about 100 yards away in knee deep snow. Each time I would get him moving, he would veer to the left and nearly fall, so I would push him back until he regained balance and start all over. After several near falls, we finally made it to the barn where I re examined and found the same conditions as before. Especially the smell from the mouth was extremely rancid.
By that time, it was late and I was frozen, so we made sure he had clean fresh bedding. water and hay, and left with the promise that the vet would be there first thing in the morning. By the next morning, the horse had thrashed or fallen through the corral panels and was found on the other side of the barn dead.
A lot of the symptoms seemed to relate to WNV, but it is so unclear to me that I wanted to post. The neighbor told me that the horse had been perfectly normal and active right up until they found him down in the pasture. I know WNV is reported to have a long incubation period, but would it take over so quickly? I thought the horse appeared a little thin prior to this, but I don't see them often, so really have no knowledge of his previous condition.
Any comments appreciated. It tears me up to see a horse with this much heart go down like that. I know he gave it a valiant fight, and I am so sorry I couldn't help him.
DT
Member:
dr3ssag3

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:46 am:

What a sad ordeal! Was an autopsy performed? I'd think that'd be the best way to figure out the cause of death.
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:56 am:

Dennis,
I saw almost these exact same symptoms and outcome. A 'trainer' brought a horse to our barn (where we boarded our horses) and immediately saddled, bridled and put on tight side reins and put the horse in the round pen. I heard the commotion and saw that the horse was down and the 'trainer' was poking the horse with a lunge whip. My daughter and I got mad and jumped the fence and undid the side reins and got the saddle off so the horse could get up. He had hit his head and had the same symptoms you describe. The vet was called and the next day the horse was put down. Unbelievably, this same 'trainer' did the same thing about a month later and after the horse fell, he was put in a pasture and later he ran through the fence and landed in a ditch. The vet couldn't get near the horse because he was thrashing around, so he had a gun and had to shoot him (no this wasn't Texas it was Virginia). What I'm saying is maybe the horse you describe had hit his head when he fell, just a suggestion.
Kathleen
Member:
canyon28

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 12:46 pm:

sounds like possibly botulism. The rank smell from the mouth I think indicates something besides a head injury or west nile. Could have easily eaten something dead in the hay if there was a lot of snow on the ground.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 6:21 pm:

What a terrible night Dennis and it does sound like the horse suffered terribly.

WNV is mosquito transmitted Dennis and with ice about does not seem likely (and incubation is not that long) so lets throw that away. Botulism hmmm that does not jump to my mind a flaccid paralysis would not allow him to clamp his jaw tight and certain oddities are missing.

The odor from the mouth is common in horses in shock because as the mouth dries out the bacteria have a field day it rapidly produces a putrid smell. The symptoms of falling you describe could be caused by:
1) muscular weakness
2) neurological incoordination
3) extreme pain
Shock can lead to the first 2. There are many diseases that can cause these general symptoms and if you are playing the percentages and considering the acute onset, the horse had a colic that lead to peritonitis, septic shock, and death. But I cannot rule out many diseases from your description including rabies you should have the horse necropsied and if the cause of death not evident tested as you all have been exposed. Though it is unlikely the consequences of even a one in a million chance are too high for being wrong.
DrO
Member:
canyon28

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 7:07 pm:

what about the possiblity of rabies or tetnus, which might have caused the locked jaw?
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 7:31 pm:

Ah Dennis, what a horrible thing to go through. What a big heart you have. It sounds like the horse suffered quite a while.
How is your friend handling losing his horse?

I hope your friend is open to the necropsy.
Keep us posted if you can.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 12:34 am:

Dennis you were certainly there for the horse and his owners Thank the Lord .It must have so very hard on all of you.Lockjaw/tetnaus came to my mind right away but Kathleens head injury could also be correct. I hope answers are found !Is there possibly some source of poison ? Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 8:05 am:

The clinical signs are not consistent with tetanus guys, despite the description of having his mouth locked shut, there is not enough peripheral rigid spasticity.
DrO
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 8:55 am:

I'm sorry Dennis, that had to be so hard on you. Bless you for being there for the poor colt.
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 9:07 am:

I'm so sorry to hear of this horse's terrible suffering, as well as yours and the owner's. To have had to stand by and watch helplessly must have been a nightmare, and I do hope you discover the cause.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 12:59 pm:

Dr.O could it be a plant poison that he browsed on ie red maple or water hemlock etc. I know in winter the horses browse thru a lot of stuff they might not at other times? Many years ago our dog got distemper and the symptoms were much the same as this horse's but as far as I've read horses get strangles/distemper but they do not present like dogs?? Think all of us are hoping for resolution as the unknown is rather terrifing! Thanks Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 9:55 am:

Cindy, from the symptoms provided there are no specific diseases really indicated (see my Feb 16, 2007 above). This is the way animals die from many causes when their death is unassisted. I cannot think of any words to console you other than to express this is the way it has been since life began.
DrO
Member:
zarr

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 1:40 am:

Dr.O Thank you I had just hoped that since Dennis had given such a good detailed report that some medical hypothesis could have been formed.? It would have been nice if that had been done as I hate not knowing why .But without being there in person it was such a wide variety of symptoms guess that would be most difficult. Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:40 am:

It is not difficult to come up with a hypothesis Cindy, I came up with two and rule out two others above, but to pin it on any particular disease from the information provided would be inaccurate.
DrO
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 8:25 am:

As it turns out, the horse had not actually died yet when found that morning. The vet came out and put him down.

Upon examining the area, it seems the horse had a terrible night. This is a somewhat open barn (no stalls) with a lot of obstacles, feed barrels, rabbit hutches, shelving, etc. The horse knocked down the corral panels and then seemed to be all over the barn, destroying everything in the way, until finally collapsing in the corner.

The shock idea makes a lot of sense to me based on his reactions, but does there need to be an incident or something to cause the shock, or can it come about on its own? Blood samples were taken, so am waiting on vet report for more information.

Thanks again for all concern. As it turns out, I was hit harder than I thought ... couldn't hardly walk the next day and my back is still killing me. Man I hate getting old .. don't recover like I used to. I know it wasn't the poor guy's fault, he was just totally out of it.

DT
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 9:44 am:

Dennis,

Hope you can take some hot baths with Epsom Salts dumped in the tub. And a good western to readAnd a backrub from your wife.

What an ordeal! I keep thinking the horse fell on the ice first, then that caused a problem. Either to the head and/or spine. Bet he was fine until he hit the ice.

I know I spent a small fortune this winter on ice melt and on plain cat litter to take care of the icy spots in our pasture.

Take care, and give the owners our sympathy.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 1:23 pm:

Dennis thank you for up dates as I said earlier I always want to know!!Since I'm older now, I think I'm called that old busy-body. Hope you recover soon it does take longer with added years! Hope those poor people get resolution and you get well. Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 5:53 pm:

Shock is when the cardiovascular system starts to fail Dennis. When you think about it this is the terminal event in most deaths no matter what the cause, eventually the heart quits perfusing tissues. It is the thrashing about that makes me think colic: the horse was in a lot of pain that night.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 8:22 pm:

A neighbor of mine had a horse do similar things -- had been thrashing in the stall when fed, gums pale, no gut sounds. My Vet. came out, diagnosed colic, suggested a program for the horse, which was not totally followed. In the morning, the horse had rolled so hard, she had taken out the fence and was on the other side dead. They had run out of feed (so had abruptly changed it), run out of hay, and were waiting upon delivery (fed more grain in general as part of their feeding program), fed a lot of carrots prior to the problem. Plus where we live, in the dead of winter, all there is to eat is usually toxic weeds. At that time, it was very cold for our area. Certainly the horse could have sustained a head or other internal injury from the extreme rolling, but I agree with the Vet. who came out that the original problem was "colic."
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 8:40 am:

Thanks Dr O .. as usual, you make things much clearer. I agree on the pain issue. I was able to get some bute in him, but obviously he was too far gone by that time.
Thanks all for the input and I will post when I hear findings from the lab work.
DT
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 5:34 pm:

It would be interesting to hear the results, Dennis. Thanks.
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