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Discussion on Shoeing bruised feet part 2
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 8:41 am:
My other thread was getting too long, so regrettably I have to start another. Here's a link to the other thread, I think. https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/25741.html
Dr.O. I am at a loss as to what to do with Hank. He was trimmed last Fri. and was somewhat sore, I gave him some bute for 2 days and he seemed o.k. except on very hard ground.
Today he can hardly walk, I wouldn't call it a founder walk, but he is very slow and would seem his back legs hurt also? I checked his pulses and all but the left front are bounding. We had 3 in of snow last night and there is already about 10 ins. on the ground. The ground is NOT hard at all.
I suppose it is possible he fell down and is body sore, but I didn't see any evidence of it in the new snow. How do I tell the difference???? When he finishes his hay I am going to give him some bute.
When the farrier trimmed him there was still evidence of bruising in his whiteline, more so in his left front (the good one). The farrier looked at his recent x-rays and took his toe back some and didn't remove any live sole. His trim looks very good to me. He still has a way to go, but every trim his feet look better.
The farrier and the vet both think he should be able to handle barefoot. I also don't want to shoe him in this weather, with the slick conditions. HELP! Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 9:00 am:
I'm sorry to hear this Diane, are there boots you can put on him to see if that helps? He's most likely compensating with his hind end. My two cents....Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:03 am:
Thanks Aileen, That's why I have a hard time jumping on the barefoot band wagon as far as your horse is concerned. Hank is struggling being barefoot and if I didn't have the hills and weather to deal with, he would stay in shoes at least until his hooves were in better form.
He may just be body sore, he is standing square with his front legs right under him. He is parking the right rear way in front and under his body. He always has had a weak stifle in the right rear, especially when out of shape, so it is possible that is his problem. Walking thru all this snow along with the 5 foot drifts could maybe be making him sore, I just am not sure.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:27 am:
Dr.O. This is how he is standing most the time, no limp or head bob when he walks. When he does walk it is very slow, and painful, and almost looks like his front....maybe it's both?
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:39 am:
Left front, right rear? In my limited experience, I still think he's compensating, while the stifle is exascerbating the issue, that's my guess. I'm trying to remember, but I'm pretty sure that Brave's hind feet were way underneath him when his front feet were at their worst and he wasn't injected. Also remember that the pain in the back legs eventually travels up the leg, up the haunches and over the back. I agree with the bute, even one gram every other day will help him cope. At least that's what I did for Brave for awhile and it did seem to help a lot. Brave's back is not nearly as sore any longer since the injections  I would be curious tho if the boots helped. It may at least tell you what hurts worse.
It's getting easier to tell which foot hurts worse the way Brave stands. Remember when he was standing square all that time? All four feet/legs hurt. He's much more comfortable now that his hocks are injected and I've told him he HAS to come sound because I don't want to have another horse, I want to ride HIM! lol.... he just nuzzled me... I'll figure him out...Thanks for your support
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 12:05 pm:
Could well be his left front, it is the only one that seems good! I can usually pick which leg on horses, but Hanks has ALWAYS been a challenge. I think it is cuz' he is such a pansy and doesn't tolerate pain well. He acts like Maybe it is all his legs...or feet. Funny it came on all the sudden overnight. He hasn't been 100% lately, but not near this bad. I don't think boots would be any more comfortable then the soft snow, maybe he snowballed up in his feet and bruised his soles?
It is so cold and windy here it is hard to examine him well, he picks up all legs willingly...to clean the snowballs out. I HATE WINTER!!!!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 12:49 pm:
Diane, for what its worth my gelding had a horse wreck and injured his back/hip area and is as "brave" as Hank! He stood that same way and would NOT come out of the arena/dry lot for weeks.He is a big bouncy arab and he moved like an elderly plow horse ! It hurt just to watch him! He could also not tolerate bute so we used alternitives. He is finally better two years later.They do make sneakers for horses ?? May spring be upon you VERY soon! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
Cindy 2 YEARS don't even say that! Did your horse walk stiffly in front also? Walking like an elderly plow horse does sum it up pretty well. He definately isn't moving about much today. I don't think I will lock him in, he gets all beside himself when stalled and would probably make matters worse. If Hank don't WANT to move he WON"T he's a rather bull headed pansy.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 3:56 pm:
This is Zarr's first year that he seems back to normal! He will never go in a stall so he just lived in the arena. It took him a couple of months to venture out on to pasture but the space is 70 x 120 so he could walk when he chose.Had both vet and horse chiropractor out more than once but it just took time. Hank maybe suffering from your winter yucks and not be to hurt! Zarr loves winter hates summer! Some arab he is!He walked so stiff at first if I had not seen the drama I would not have known which end was hurt!? I hope answers come so fustrating when all you want is to help and don't where to start. Cindy
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 5:57 pm:
Thats how my horse stood when he was lame. from unbalanced feet and being heel sore. Though he also tended to shake and buckle at the knees. This is not your case , but I thought I would share.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 7:36 am:
After some thinking on this, I wonder if Hank is brewing an abscess. My hoof testers broke, is there any other way to test hooves? As wet as the weather has been, along with the frozen ground it does make me wonder.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 9:58 am:
I don't know of any other way to test hooves, Diane, sorry he's still having a rough go of it. Did you bute him? If so, did it help at all?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 1:44 pm:
He is much better with the bute, he headed right out to the back 40 this morning. They paw thru all that snow all day, have to wonder if that don't have something to do with it. He is a right footed pawer, but the left gets a work out too.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 1:50 pm:
Oh Good! But that begs another question! Would bute help an abcess?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 2:12 pm:
From my experience bute doesn't help abscesses much, but a little. I am not going to bute him tonite and see what morning brings....it's all a guessing game.
I don't think it warrants a vet visit yet.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 4:55 pm:
Took Hank out on the paved HARD road to see if I could tell if it was his hooves. He does have bute in him, but my guess it is definately the right front. That right front is cursed or something, it is the one that always has the elevated pulse. (sorry Dr.O.) according to his x-rays the left front SHOULD be the problem...it has more rotation and the bruised whiteline????
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 11:48 pm:
Hi Diane, I have been off for a while, but I am so with you in your frustration. Levi is still not right either. He is not in total pain, but I can tell he is off. I had the farrier come out before I left for Phoenix, he made a special trip, because he was definately limping.
I had an x-ray taken by the local vet here, He said his rotation had not changed, but that he had verry thin sole. The other vet, that I have been sticking with, said he was impressed with his sole thickness. Just keep taking back the toe. The white line is exposed in the front of his foot, not underneath like normal horses.
I am so frustrated, as the vet that is 1 1/2 hours away chastised me for not sticking with a vet and farrier. So I am trying to keep working with him, but I would think that Levi should be sound by now if we were on the right track.
I am debating on taking him to the vet school when the weather stabilizes around here, and get yet another opinion.
I wonder if it is in his left foot, right foot, or shoulder ankle who knows.
We must find a way to get together and drink a gallon of wine some day!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:02 am:
Diane why would you think your horse fell down and became body sore, does that not seem a little strange? Assuming the feet are sore, which is more likely, the treatment of the current problem is explained in the article associated with this discussion. If you really are uncertain, to differentiate these problems you will need to get a physical exam.
As for long term, if everytime you trim and leave the horse barefoot you get this problem, stop leaving him barefoot. For information on shoeing horses for the winter see, Horse Care » Horse Management and Procedures » Winter Care for your Horse.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:13 am:
The reason I thought he may be body sore is it came on overnight, and they had been out on the hills pawing thru snow that night.
He was trimmed over a week ago, and was O.K. until then.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 7:09 pm:
Dr.O. I was picking Hanks feet tonight and found that there is a big red ring going around his white line in both feet. It is the whole white line, not just at the toe. He can hardly walk on hard ground, in the snow, he isn't horrible.
The red ring starts at his heel and goes all the way around to the other side of the heel. It is bright red, The snow helped make it very visible.
No wonder the poor guy has been so sore. I have been trying to put off shoeing until this weather breaks. Is it even wise to shoe him with that big of bruise? What normally causes the whole white line to be red?...actually it seems to be on the inside of the whiteline a little. 2 grams of bute doesn't seem to help MUCH, just a little. Ideas.?
I don't think any type of rap will stay on in this yucky, wet mess.
I have been working out of town and leave in the dark and come home in the dark.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 7:04 am:
Diane is it the white line or the sole inside the white line? Perhaps a photo?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 6:24 pm:
Dr.O. here's a pic of Hanks soles. Could this be from pawing thru the snow so much?
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 6:30 pm:
Diane, once again Zarr has had this discoloration and my farrier said it was from all the cold ground it will be interesting to see what Dr.O says ??? Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
Cindy my other 2 horses don't have any red at all on their soles, only poor Hank who can't hardly walk comfortably on anything but very soft ground.
I hope Dr.O. knows too!
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 8:37 pm:
Diane, His feet do look sore. Is it bruising do you think? Mine is on ice and snow and he has no discoloration. I really don't think its the cold ground but something else. I too am waiting on Dr O's thoughts.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 10:01 pm:
The look of Hank's feet makes me want to put Aspercreme on them to take the pain away . . . or Visine . . . to take the red out. Poor old guy. We hurt when our "babies" are hurting.
The frog looks great.
For any of you natural trimmers, do you think that the sides of the hoof wall are longer than they need to be? If I were trimming this horse, I would have followed more closely the shape of the sole in my trimming, but though I have been trimming for many years (30 or so) I don't have professional training other than what I've learned from farriers and from trimming many, many horses, and I know there is always more to learn . . . so if some of you trimmers could put in your "two cents," that would be great.
Diane, I follow this thread sporadically, so may have missed some of the posts, but was Hank trimmed by the same farrier you usually use? and if so, was he lame after the last trimming, too?
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 1:31 am:
Diane, Zarr was the only one out of my four maybe he and Hank are joined at the hip! Altho this year my foxtrotter has some, we had frozen ground for long time this year. My farrier will be here in am will ask him. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 6:30 am:
The red is "past" bruising and it does look like it is confined to the sole at the toe just in front of the coffin bone and not involving the white line. It suggests the sole is too thin for the hardness of the ground. What is not clear is whether this is ongoing or not, but continued lameness on hard ground says it is.
I would suggest treating as recommended in Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming until the soreness resolves. Looking over how this all started in began with a trimming episode. Once sound, you should consider shoeing this horse. They need to be careful to not load the sole with the inner edge of the shoe (see my 3rd post in the last discussion for more on this).
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 6:31 am:
Hank has had a new farrier for the last 6 mos. or so. His feet look much better than they use to.
He just started barefoot around Nov. and did pretty good until the frozen ground showed up. Last trimming 4 weeks ago he was a little ouchy, but a couple days of bute and he was O.K.
He has foundered in the past with some minor rotation, so his hooves are a work in progress. The last set of BAD x-rays looked like his sole was thinning.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 6:38 am:
here's a pic of his hooves, he was trimmed about 4 weeks ago.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 6:49 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I must have been posting at the same time as you.
If this represents past bruising is it possible he did it a week ago when he became VERY lame?
The farrier is coming the 14th of March and if this awful weather is better and he is still sore, he will be shod. Is it o.k. to shoe him if he is still sore? In your post above it sounds like I should wait until he's better. Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 7:04 am:
Holly I agree with you 100% He is not trimmed evenly around the white line which makes the sides flare. He is too wide for my liking one side being even more so. I am also not a professional and am just learning with the help of a professional
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 8:37 am:
The inside of your shed looks great, Diane. Nice and dry and soft.
The reason I ask about the hoof wall not following the shape of the sole is that if it doesn't follow, then the sole is suspended and carries more pressure and weight than it needs to . . . and maybe that is part of the bruising that you are seeing. Again, I am only guessing here. If this were my horse, I'd trim the sides of the hoof wall to be the same as what you see at the toe. That's just me, working from the pictures, Diane, and from the fact that you say he was lame after the trim.
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Member:
tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:19 am:
Hi Diane and Holly,
The walls are definitely flared all the way around. They should be rasped back, at a 45 degree angle to relieve the wall from tearing away from the laminae anymore. Think of ripping your fingernail away from your finger, that's what it feels like. ;o)
The fact that he is standing with his front feet way underneath himself suggests his heels hurt, he's trying to rock his weight onto the front of his foot. He has a really nice looking frog, but I can't tell from the pictures, is the frog higher than the heels (when you're looking at the bottom of the foot)? If so, that could be part of the problem, if the heels aren't making proper contact with the ground.
It also looks like your farrier may be trimming live sole off too. When I trim my horse's feet, I never touch the sole. The only way sole comes off is if I can pick it off with a hoof pick. Thinning the sole would cause the bruising you see.
In the picture, do you see the ridge of sole that runs all the way around the foot, just inside the whiteline, and outside of where the bruising is? That's Hank's attempt at building sole. It should be left there. When I first started trimming my horses, both of them got this ridge. At first I was trimming it, and couldn't figure out why their feet weren't getting better. After doing some research, I left it alone, and it eventually went away as their feet developed a thicker, more calloused sole.
Since Hank is sore, I would put him in boots with foam inserts, and encourage him to move around, by leading him on soft ground. Movement is the key. The more they move, the better, but you should make sure he's comfortable doing it.
Anyway, there's my ... em ... 3 or 4 cents worth. :o) Hope it helps. I have been trimming my own horse's feet for about 11 months now, so the majority of my time and energy has been spent obsessing over them, and doing all the research I can. lol
Nicole
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 3:08 pm:
The farrier has NOT touched his soles in the last 2 trimmings. He has been working on those flares and after he is trimmed it looks pretty good, but they seem to come back fairly quickly. He puts a good roll on them also.
When he does walk he lands SLIGHTLY heel first, so I would take that to mean his heels aren't sore?
I was wondering what that ridge of sole was, thanks for the info Nicole.
Hank stays fairly mobile thru the day, he starts throwing his head to show his displeasure, then will slowly walk off. In the soft snow and the lean-to where there are shavings he moves normally.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 4:11 pm:
Diane, could you repost pictures of the above soles with all of the litter carefully brushed away? I had dismissed the areas Holly speaks about above as picture artifacts but on reexam she may be right: is that wall pulled away from the laminae and filled in with litter?. I don't see the flare in the standing photos that the others reference but the positioning is not ideal. The article I reference above discusses our recommendations on exercise and shoeing such cases, or provides links to that information.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 5:34 pm:
Diane, my farrier concured with Nicole and Holly about the no soul removed and was glad your farrier was doing that already! I found it hard to watch nothing being trimmed off souls when we first went barefoot but it does work but take time. He also agreed standing on very cold/frozen ground would cause the bruising. You are on the right track. Caution another round headed your way, just watched weather channel. Duck and cover here it comes again! Sorry Cindy
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 7:35 pm:
From what I understand, Diane, (and I am sure there are other opinions on this technique) the quarters should be shorter and should be off the ground a bit IF the horse has a natural concavity to his sole. In other words, if his sole is completely level, then the hoof wall will be level, but if his sole is concave, the edges of the hoof wall will not be even with the ground. You say that Hank is better on the soft ground, which to me says that he wants the pressure on his sole . . . Maybe when he is on hard ground, his sole is suspended at the quarters. I'm not suggesting founder here, but to better explain, I will use the treatment of founder as a comparison . . . when horses founder, we are told to put them in clay or sand or something to help put pressure on their soles and it gives them relief from the pressure on the walls which are losing the support of the lamina and letting the coffin bone sink. Personally, I wouldn't call the sides of Hank's hoof "flared" although they would probably flare out and chip off and crack if they were left to grow, but I do think that the walls on the sides could be shortened more. Often, horseSHOERS will trim the hoof to be perfectly flat to hold a shoe -- so there are no gaps between the wall and the shoe . . . but in the natural hoof, the quarters chip away on rocks and hard ground, and the hoof wall follows a more concave shape as it chips away to meet the sole.
Every horse is different . . . I don't pretend to know what is best for Hank, bless his heart, but I think I would be trimming him differently, especially just to see if it would help.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 7:55 pm:
After careful examination (with my glasses on) his walls really aren't very long, the pics seem to make them look longer then they truly are.
His sole is ALMOST even with the hoof wall, if he was rasped a little I think they would be TOO short?? When examining my other 2 who are 110% sound they have quite a bit more wall?
Maybe the farrier got a little more aggressive this trimming after looking at his new x-rays and seeing his toe could come back quite a bit yet. Up until this last time Hank was handling barefoot pretty well, I had even been riding him on the road with no problems.
Overall his hooves look much better, if you go thru the beginning threads pics until now. DON'T THEY????
Here are his hooves as clean as I could get them, these pictures are still a little decieving as far as his hoof wall.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 7:57 pm:
I think Holly is right. The live sole is the indicator where the walls should be. His toes look about right, but the quarters and especially the heels are too long (the walls I mean). If you picture the rotated coffin bone, having his heels this high puts more pressure on the tip of the coffin bone. There are so many factors that it's hard to tell from photos, but think about the internal structures and the rotation. Those high heels don't seem right to me.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 8:30 pm:
You know guys y'all keep making comments about these feet that are just not evident to me. Remember these photos are often poorly focused, poorly lit, and sometimes not taken from angles that make evaluation easy. When uncertain it is usually best to ask for more information.
The walls do not look flared in the standing photos and are not apparent in the sole shots. A straight edge follows the wall contours to the mm of the distant slightly our of focus standing shots of the feet. A better set of photos and I might change my opinion.
As for the heels being low, by what standard? The hoof pastern angle looks great so trimming the heel lower disrupts this a-p balance but you cannot lower the whole foot ad the soles are already so thin that they bruise easily.
As to the separation of the hoof wall from the white line now I am even less certain than before. I don't see it in the clearer of the two images above it is hinted at in the out of focus image. Diane, we have to have in-focus, well lit images, that accurately show what you want us to see before a person can give an accurate appraisal. But better Diane is these are all aspects of foot balance and care you can study and learn about in our hoof care section and reference pages so you can make the judgements yourself before mistakes are made.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 8:31 pm:
Gosh I am sooo confused, first he had long under run heels and we were suppose to get his toe back and his heels up, and now they are too tall?
It does appear from the pics that the walls are a little long in the quarters, in person they don't look that long to me. They say a picture is worth a 1000 words tho.
I laid a ruler across his frog and his hoof walls and right now his frog is a little lower than the wall. When he walks he would be walking on his frog somewhat. Wouldn't lowering his heels make him heel sore if that is the case?? The frog shouldn't bear all the weight should it??? Would the high walls in the quarters cause bruising at the toe????
I had a barefoot trimmer at one time, he was VERY good and he always had a hard time with Hanks feet. The trick we found with Hank thru trial and error was to actually trim his sole a little, when he didn't trim his sole it seemed he would be sore because he would be walking completely on his sole rather than sharing it with the other weight bearing parts. We haven't trimmed his sole the last 2 times?? maybe we should pare a very little off???
From the way his hooves land when he walks I don't think he is heel sore. when he turns...painfully, he crosses his legs. From my experience with founder it is very rare they do this.
I would have the vet out to examine him, but I KNOW for a fact he would just prescribe bute. I will have to get a new hoof tester and see if I can figure out where the pain is coming from.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:28 pm:
Diane, I agree with you 3rd paragragh the heels should not be lowered as you dont want the frog to bear all the weight. that happened with my horse at one time. Also as Dr o said It would change your angle which is good. I dont agree with trimming a little sole as it will never concave on its own. I know its hard to wate for nature but It will happen . My horse never had concavity until I left the sole alone and all of a sudden it started breaking away. It was really amazing to see as for 8 years of his life he never had it. So there is hope. I wonder if the bars near the heals could come back a smidgen. Maybe once the bruising is gone he will feel better. He probably will have pain in all the bruised area's so you really might not need a hoof tester as you can see whats sore. Landing heel first is good. You are there we are not so you get a better picture than we do. Bruising can take a while to stop being painful. keep taking pictures and show them to your farrier as sometimes they show something your farrier missed. For instance I found yet another trimmer(my other did not show up)I have been doing it on my own with great results. She did a great job and I sent her pictures of her work. She noticed in the pictures that she could have taken a little more toe of which she did not see at the time. So I am to do that until she comes out. So the pictures help all round as a record and to go back on. My only suggestion is to have the walls more even around the white line. I hope he feels better soon. Good luck and keep taking those pictures they are a great reference.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:30 pm:
I really didn't think the heels looked bad, Diane. I was just looking at the sides. Also, I'm not suggesting he is foundering.
I know you have struggled with trying to do everything you can do to help Hank by helping his feet, and I certainly don't want to create more angst for you. I know you are doing your very best for him.
I am only working from the above photos . . . and I am comparing them in my mind to the photos in Pete Ramey's book on "Making Natural Hoof Care Work for You." While I am typing this, I went to the bookshelf to pull the book, and I see that some of the photos in the book are very good for telling the length of the walls. They are taken from an angle, across the bottom of the hoof, but with the hoof tipped a little toward the camera so that so that the far side of the hoof is a bit uphill from the camera. When the book photos are of the sole, with the camera looking straight down at the sole, the hoof walls look longer than they do from an angle across the bottom of the sole, so maybe the same is true of your photos. I know it is bitter cold for you right now and not easy to get good light for a photo, but when the weather and light permit, maybe you can indulge us with a different angle?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:52 pm:
Holly I didn't think you were saying he was foundering, I was just muttering my observations
My camera just isn't very good and when holding a foot and taking pics in 50 mph winds it does get a little difficult, as you can imagine the horses are a little jumpy. The good news is he will stand forever with one hoof in the air, so at least he is very weight bearing on both.
I will try to get better pics. I do like to hear others critique. I am still wondering if pawing on that frozen ground....constantly has something to do with this. You can see in my first sole pic how he has worn down the toe wall and formed a sort of calous there.
They will be spending the next few days in the lean with soft footing, they usually don't venture out in the winter storms. Maybe without the pawing he will improve? then I will know for sure.
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Member:
jockyrdg
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 9:07 am:
Hello Diane;
I am far from a hoof expert - most confusing part of the animal to me. Maybe because it can be so individual for each animal. I have some universal comments, though - 1) try picking one thing at a time to change otherwise you won't know its effect. 2) remember changing hoof stuff can create soreness as it worsens and as it heals 3) frozen ground is concrete. What do you think would happen to your horse if you rode him around on uneven concrete. Snow is softer, but where they tramp, snow often turns to ice and now you are back to the concrete concept.
So think about his history, what's been happening in the environment and if and when you do make a change, try to make just one. Good luck. I'm really not good with feet, but they look like pretty nice platters to me. Beverly
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:09 pm:
Surprise! Hank is ALMOST sound after standing in the lean all night instead of digging a hole to China.
His gait is still a LITTLE choppy but much improved, even on the hard ground.
Dr.O. is it feasible that I could still consider barefoot with him? I would like to see how he does when this snow is gone and his pawing stops. He really is a NEUROTIC pawer. When he digs thru the snow his toe is always pounding the frozen ground. I really am starting to suspect this as the problem. Anything for a morsel of dead grass. I really don't want to hay them more because of his weight problems.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:08 pm:
Hey Diane, isn't it wonderful to have a good day for a change, even if it is a blizzard.
Maybe your could keep him barefoot, and get him a pair of old macs or boa boots to wear during the day when he is most active? Just a thought. Levi wore his when he was sore and ran around like a banchee with them on. What is a banchee anyhow???
Stay warm. We have had snow allll day
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:24 pm:
Thanks Susan, it is very nice to see him walk almost normally. Hank would probably paw a hole thru his old macs . Warm weather after the weekend....they say, maybe the snow will melt and he will have no reason to paw!
Then I have to worry about spring grass...there's always something.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:48 am:
It may be possible Diane but this is a judgement you, your farrier, and veterinarian need to make.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:15 am:
Hi Diane, glad to see he's feeling better. For the record, I'm most likely going to put shoes back on Brave just to see if there's any improvement. There hasn't been any improvement barefoot, if anything, he's jamming his toes more than before. I'm telling you these rocker shoes are amazing. Everything he needs "right now" breakovers all over the place. If I were you, and I'm not -- thankfully I don't have to deal with your blizzards -- I'd probably put his shoes back on for a little while then try again.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 7:46 am:
Thanks Aileen, if he continues to recover I think I will keep him barefoot. It's just something I will play by ear for now.
The wind is still howling and they have stayed in the lean-to, he still looks very good! The test will be when they start wandering and pawing again.
His breakover is very good in my opinion and he is landing slightly heel first. This new farrier is doing a very good job so far. When the other farrier did him he was toe jabbing also.
I didn't know you had Brave barefoot! I haven't had time recently to keep up with the posts. Hank wasn't any better barefoot either, but I figured he wasn't any worse either so why spend the money on shoes. He is slowly coming around...I hope. If he doesn't I will shoe him again, it just is very hard in the winter with our steep hills that get covered in ice and snow.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 10:23 am:
I figured the weather would play a part in your decision What did the new farrier do differently so he stopped jabbing his toes?
Brave looks pathetic. It's way too wet here, his feet are so soft. You're lucky in that Hank has heel, Brave has none, so we won't make any progress if he doesn't land heel first. I've read that relieving the quarters may help, but my farrier can't do that without compromising the white line.
Do you put a hoof hardener on his feet? Maybe that would help? It does seem to help Brave a little, not enough tho for him right now. If these amazing shoes don't help him in a couple of months, we're going to try barefoot again when it's drier and for a longer period of time.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 11:16 am:
Aileen, Hank had hooves very similar to Braves...no heel and very long toe. I guess it wasn't really NO heel but very under run.
I have followed Dr.O."s advice in this very long post,and also switched farriers and his feet are improving monthly. It is a long process.
The biggest thing that helped Hank was getting the toe back and rolling it. The old farrier just wouldn't do it and the toe jabbing was driving me nuts, it also made Hank very trippy and sore....even with shoes. The new farrier wants to leave Hank barefoot.
The old farrier thought if he didn't trim Hanks heel it would grow and it did....FORWARD not up.
I don't use hoof hardner on his feet. We go thru the wet muddy stuff too, and the horses feet do soften, but would shoes really change that?
I am sure we will have more struggles barefoot...but then again he did shod also, I'm TRYING not to use it as a "quick" fix and ruin all progress he has made, it is a hard decision. Good Luck with Brave I'll have to catch up on your thread this weekend!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 11:50 am:
Dr.O. I got new Better pics, do they help any? His left front does seem to be flare a little. the farrier has been working on it and it is improving. It seems to want to come back a few weeks after trimming.
  
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 8:17 am:
Dr.O. here is a couple more pics, in the sole shot it appears he has worn away his toe and his wall is lower than his soles. Could this be the reason for his soreness? In person it looks the same. I laid on the ground for the side view.
If he is walking on his soles I should not have him trimmed again, should I? He is due the 14th and from the looks of his hooves I would be afraid to remove anymore.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 9:33 am:
Great photos, Diane. What a trooper YOU are to get out there in all the mess and take them!
I can really see in the bottom photo how his heels tend to grow under and flare out if left to grow too long.
I don't think his walls look shorter than the sole in these photos.
The surface of the hoof wall in the bottom photo is definitely concaved, and see how the lines in the hoof from coronet to the ground don't follow a straight line? I think that I'd take his heels back more a bit in an attempt to get them to grow out more straight, and I'd rasp more of the outside of the hoof wall to get rid of the flaring at the bottom edge. In the photo of the two fronts standing -- it seems that his right front has more "belling out" than does the left front.
Not sure if changing any of that will help, but it's just what I see from the photos.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 10:41 am:
Thanks Holly, His heels do want to run under, it has been a constant battle. The new farrier had been addressing the flare, the long toe, and the under run heel.His hooves are really starting to look much better since he started doing Hank 4 mos. ago.
As my vet said we can't undo years worth of damage in a few short mos., but we are headed in the right direction!
His whiteline was stretched a lot from the other farrier leaving his toe so long and Hanks bout of founder, so the new farrier also has this to deal with, the poor guy walked into quite a mess.
Hank has bell feet...always has been "platter footed", I wish I had pics of his hooves when he was younger.
I see where his heels could be trimmed a little, but it also looks like they are breaking off in an attempt to trim themselves.
I still think at the toe it looks like he has worn down his wall so much from pawing that he is walking on his soles slightly in the toe area, maybe that is causing that bruising.
The ground is froze solid again and he is lame on the hard ground, we are suppose to have a spring thaw this week so that should help him out.
Do you think his toe should be trimmed? that is my worry at this point.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:14 am:
In the very last photo, Diane, if I look at the colors on the sole and at the toe, I can see where the colors change, from right to left, from beige (center of the sole) to white (inside rim of the sole) to grey (inside hoof wall). It looks as if the outside wall of the hoof at the toe bows out and that the farrier has taken the very bottom edge of the wall and made it thinner, but the bowed part above the bottom rim, should probably be rasped from the top to help the hoof grow down straight to the ground.
If the grey crescent on the bottom of the hoof at the toe has room between the outside rim and the white line, I'd take it all the way to the white line and then flip the hoof over and rasp from the top to even out the outside wall and remove the bowing.
In some ways, it's trial and error, Diane, and maybe the little rasps here and there won't make a difference to Hank . . . yet, we know Hank will tell you when he isn't sore anymore.
I'll tell you one thing . . . You are one dedicated lady when it comes to helping your horses!!! Do you realize how long these threads are about Hank's soreness????? Good for you. There is no lack of Perseverence in your genes!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:35 am:
Thanks Diane,
Does your farrier relieve the quarters at all? If not, it looks like Hank is trying to do that himself.... But I, of course, know absolutely nothing so I defer to those much more knowledgable!!
I asked a couple of barefoot trimmers what they would do, and they said they would like to roll the toe and relieve the quarters, but Brave's foot is such that it's not possible at the moment. He is better today, I'm wondering now if it's because the ground hardened up. He chooses to stand on rocks barefoot ...I'm still going to try the shoes tho, better now while he still has nail holes in his feet, then in a few months when they are grown out and I weaken the wall again!
He's still not landing heel first, still jabbing, but his turns are better. I have to see if these shoes make him land heel first, if he does, then his process will shorten I am sure of that, so I have to try. If they don't help, we'll go barefoot again and give it more time.
Thank you for your help, I'm learning a lot from this thread
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 1:05 pm:
Holly I thought the gray part was his white line, if we are speaking of the same thing.
His white line is still pretty stretched...it has improved alot. That is probably the reason for the bow.
IF that is his white line doesn't that mean his sole is touching the ground at the toe? I better go look at Dr.O.'s hoof pics again, maybe I'm confused, it wouldn't be the first time!
The farrier rasps quite a bit from the top when he's done, as you can see from his front on pic there are still rasp marks from over 4 weeks ago.
I am determined to help this horse, and I want to thank you for your input.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 3:11 pm:
Gosh, Diane . . . I can't tell from the pics, I guess . . . but my guys have a white whiteline . . . so maybe if his is stretched it is different.
One test you can do to see if the surface of the hoof is rasped enough to help it grow down straight is to hold the hoof up, close your eyse and with your palm across the bottom of his foot, let your fingers curl around the edge and run them over the surface of his foot . . . you will be able to feel if there is any unevenness -- bulges or ridges.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 5:11 pm:
I know Holly I think it is his white line, since it is stretched and isn't tight it fills with dirt etc. Way back in the first post I was battling seedy toe, due to it. Believe it or not it is Much better, but it takes quite awhile to get that tight bond back...if at all.
I'm hoping with the new farrier in a years time it will be much closer to normal. With the compromised white line, I believe there will be unevenness? He doesn't have a tight laminar connection yet. Hopefully Dr.O. will correct me if I'm wrong!
As you say keeping the foot going in the right direction is the only way to accomplish this. Keeping flares under control and balance.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
I've been quietly following this and have made my first attempts at doing my own trimming as well as having a new guy do my horses Feb 19th. For what it's worth, I sure think my horses hooves and those pictured above look pretty much the same.
I think it's hard to just leave things be for awhile, and not over analyze. I was picking up feet daily and the rasp, always seeing a little something to touch up. I told myself I will not rasp anything til the 3rd week following their professional trim, then I will start the eagle eye analysis again. I also took pictures but haven't got them on the computer yet, yours are very good Diane.
Holly,
On the 3rd picture post 763 of Dianes, is it normal on the quarters (I think) to have that wider area on the sides? It's a little concave, and darker. Look at the red hoof pick/brush on the ground, and dry a line from it's upper left hand corner to the hoof. I noticed that on my horses too; even more than is showing on Diane's picture.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 5:52 pm:
Thanks Angie. if it wasn't for Hanks lameness that came on recently, I would be very happy with his feet at this point.
The confusing thing is he was doing relatively well barefoot even on the hard frozen ground, I was even able to ride him on the rode.
His last trim he was off a little and within a few day was sound again, then about 2 weeks later he was very sore again? That leaves me to believe something happened. He just may not be able to tolerate barefoot, for now anyway. I won't be able to shoe him until the ice/snow is gone. I just wish I knew what set off this recent BAD lameness. All I can come up with is his neurotic pawing and constantly banging that toe on hard ground.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 8:11 pm:
hi Diane, I have been going over and over the posts and your pictures. trying to work out in my mind what I would do. (Not to say you should) I just want to give my thoughts, You should make your decisions. From what I am learning the under run heels that are trying to happen and the constant flairs are similar to my horse. Don't know if you have been following my attempts at barefoot trimming.
First what i would do and second what i think my new trimmer would say. (She had only done one trim so even though I am confident with her I cant guarantee her thinking yet).
What I would do. I would only trim from the top until the bruising is resolved. It could take a while because of the severity, Thats why he is lame. It wont hurt to leave the bottom alone until he is sound. At least it worked for me. Mine was extremely lame. Even though you say he has always had bell bottom feet, I think you can change that. I did not touch the bottom of mine for 4 months until he was sound. That was extreme but he could hardly walk. What i did and what I would do is have your farrier trim only from the top to remove the flairs. If you do it hold the rasp at an angle level to the wall at the top of the foot near the coronet band. Thats the angle you want. File a little each week until the angle is straight no flairs. stop filing when you see the flakes start sticking to the wall instead of falling to the ground. This trick has always kept the foot even and balanced all the way around without relying on the white line for a guide. It also guarantees you wont trim too much and make him sore. Only do a little each week so he stays sound and gets accustomed to the change in shape. This trimming is what thickened my horses wall and sole tremendously. Its also what gave him concavity. In my mind trimming from the top changed the shape of my horses foot to almost perfect. your horses feet look good and I don't think he would be lame if he did not have bruising (that can take a while to heal). Touching the sole to me would be adding insult to injury. Ok thats my thoughts.
Now for what I think my new trimmer would say.Only guessing here but she was very explicit and informative of her whys and why nots. I think she would file the sides dramatically to get rid of flairs. She would also remove those bars near the heels. I think she would touch up the heels but not enough to change the angle but to help get more frog contact with the ground. She says that mine flairs so easy (bell bottom feet) because of the over grown bars causing inflammation from pressure. I don't know yet if thats true but I am willing to try her thoughts.. My horse starts to flair every week, so if her thinking works she says he will stop flaring so crazy. Also she says mine is great on hard ground but not as good on soft because soft ground actually conforms to to foot more causing more pressure where she says inflammation is because of bar pressure. Time will tell if her thinking is right. So far he is striding out much better. One other thought. When mine was shod in winter with winter shoes aluminum and studs and pads he was still extremely ouchy on rock hard frozen ground so shoes are not always the answer. He has better grip and slides less and is less ouchy on frozen ground with correct trimming than with the winter shoes. Another thing to think about. Even my barn owner who is against barefoot says he see the difference between his shod studded horses and my barefoot on ice and hard frozen ground, He just says some are like that
Just some more thoughts to confuse you. Sorry , just had to put my 2 cents in. Ps I would not worry about the white line stretching etc if you follow the above it should resolve on its own
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 9:12 pm:
Sorry I have another thought don't want to confuse you .
Sometimes when you trim from the top only the walls might break away if he has a touch of white line. I wish I had pictures. At first when I started trimming from the top the wall would break away, similar to how they remove the wall on white line disease. I freaked out but it stopped happening after a few trims. Because of this I new he had a little white line disease. I am pretty sure that wont happen in you case , but if you file from the top and it happens don't be concerned, Its actually a good thing, just keep the toes rolled to stop cracking.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 10:06 pm:
katrina, I think all that sounds good. I haven't had the wall break away from filing from the top, though . . . and I think it would really scare me if that happened. Thanks for explaining it.
Angie, I see what you are talking about, and that is from the angle at which Hank's heels grow. They tend to grow forward rather than down, and if the heels are shortened enough, and kept short, the striations of the hoof will start to grow downward at a more correct angle. If the quarters are left completely level with the ground when the horse has some concavity of the sole, the quarters (which are normally a thinner part of the wall than the front part of the hoof) will start to chip and break away from contact with the ground. That is why, if the horse has natural concavity of the sole, and if the hoof wall is trimmed level with the sole, not with the ground you will see a slight curve of the bottom edge of the hoof wall where the quarters will not touch the ground.
I'm not sure what the current trend is concerning the trimming or not trimming of the bars . . . I've heard "yes, trim them until you can just catch them with a fingernail" to "no, don't trim them; leave them alone and they'll take care of themselves." I tend to trim the bars so that they are just a tiny bit above the level of the sole. I would probably trim Hank's bars shorter than they seem to be in the photos.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:20 am:
Katrina, Holly, Diane:
Katrina, I am liking the trimming from the top concept more and more as I study it. My question is: On my flat footed, soft hooved mare, does the pink showing so easily ever get better when you rasp on the outside? My new farrier said she has bruising on the outer wall and the sole. She's not lame, but then they are on lots of snow right now. Like most flat footed horses, she flares very easily.
Now having said that, wouldn't it be possible all hooves bruise, we just don't see it on the darker ones?
Can a horse be made less flat footed with this type of trimming?
Holly, have to study what you are saying. I just thought this new guy left that part of the hoof really obviously concave and wider. I just never noticed it before and wondered why there is like a gap there that is lower than the rest. Maybe my previous farrier trimmed different. And I am having a dickens of a time describing what I mean here! Yes, the quarters are slightly above the ground, and the feet look great, look like the pictures in the books, and on the websites.
Diane, Hope you don't mind me joining the conversation; your questions are my questions at this point. Too bad we can't all get together and compare hooves and techniques...hands on would be great right now!
BTW, are you sure Hank is lame from his feet? Is it possible you are overlooking lameness from some where else? Ouchiness when walking is one thing, but is he head bobbing lame? I know I've been busy thinking for sure it's this but it's that!
Our weather is improving here, just bitterly cold now so now I can go look at 16 feet and get my brain all confused, lol!
Thanks ladies!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:42 am:
It is easy to see the moderately underrun (picked up foot) flared out (inside left fore foot on the ground) heels in these photos, at least on the side the sun is shining. It sounds like y'all are aware and working on it. The question is when you have done all you can have you done enough so that the stress from what remains will allow normal healthier, straighter growth? It is uncertain from the photos but if you hit a wall you might have to revert to a bit more aggressive corrective therapy as outlined in the new article on long toes, underrun heels.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 9:13 am:
Angie all horses can bruise shod or barefoot. Yes the pink bruising goes away. the bottom of the hoof will slough off on its own. Or a farrier putting shoes on will slowly par it.It could take a short while or months. PS my horse has always had flat feet and soft thin soles which is why I put shoes on in the first place untilI read and read about barefoot and decided to try again. Actually in my posts I said I have been trimming him for 4 months its actually 6 months as he was lame in August. so yes flat footed horses can become concaved. I am going to try and upload pictures of him flat footed with a bit of bruising then one showing the sole sloughing off,(last picture) then Jan picture and onr showing the feet toughening up. One picture the white hoof did have the bars and heels trimmed a week ago for the first time in 6 months by a trimmer.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 7:54 pm:
well I guess Dr.O. summed it up pretty good. Hanks feet are a work in progress. They have improved remarkably since the new farrier started doing him. When he was here last time I asked if we could get Hanks hooves better barefoot and he said that was the way he'd rather do it.
If it hadn't been for the bruising I think he would have been o.k.
After all there really is no such thing as the perfect hoof, all I can do is try to get it as close to normal as possible.
I will post pics after the farrier comes the 14th, he does knock that flare out of the left front, but it comes back shortly after, I also am not sure I like the looks of his bars, so I will question him about that and his heels.
I think he is sore at the toe however...probably from the bruising, he lands heel first and to me that doesn't indicate sore heels.
Hank is my main riding horse come spring, so if he is still sore, shoes will be applied, and I will have to try barefoot next fall again. The fat boy has got to be ridden or he will explode when the grass comes up
Thanks everyone for your help and advice it truly is a learning experience!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 12:58 pm:
Diane, my horses feet look a great deal like Katrina's pictures but it is a on going process! Don't give up on barefoot as suggested get boots/ sneakers. Zarr was losing his hooves in chunks even with shoes and now bounces around like the young stallion he use to be loooong ago! Whiskey was trimmed as a domestic horse and that got him in trouble now he is mustang good! My girl who had laminitis has hard hooves like concrete. Pest is just good to go anytime. This has not been fast but it sounds like you have the right farrier so practices ,your ooommmmms! Cindy ps Katrina ,Good job in both picture taking and hoof carvin!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 7:13 am:
Dr.O. I had to cancel the farrier Weds. due to the weather, he is coming this Wed. instead.
In the mean time I have talked to my vet about Hank and he and I think it may be best to shoe him, in order to give his bruised soles time to heal.
The red rings on his soles are slowly going away. He seems pretty good on soft ground, but the hard ground still makes him VERY uncomfortable. We are afraid he may "road founder", if he hasn't already.
My vet isn't real good in the hoof department and really had no recommendations as to how to proceed. I was thinking a rim pad and a wide web shoe for now to give the soles some relief. I don't want to use full pads... he doesn't seem to do well in them. Does this sound O.K.? any other suggestions? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 10:58 am:
That all sounds reasonable Diane just make sure they feather (hammer or grind it down) the inside rim of the shoe so it does not push up on the bruised areas of the sole.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 2:49 pm:
Hey Diane, you might check out these tracme shoes. I called them, and they sent me a sample. They have a built in breakover, rolled toe, and the inside is beveled in so there is no pressure on the sole, also a raised heel. I am hoping once Levi has a foot to shoe, we will be able to work into them for his rotation issues as well. Someone on this site referred to them. They are rather spendy, but if they work, it is well worth it to me.
The web site is www.tracmeshoes.com
worth a look at anyhow.
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 17, 2007 - 3:27 pm:
Thanks Susan, I am hoping once his soles heal he can go back to barefoot. I am still debating the shoes. Now that the ground is soft most of the time he seems to be somewhat better. The mornings are rough on him until the ground thaws. If the mud would dry a little more I would be tempted to just wrap his hooves until the bruising was gone. I have a few days to think it over.
He is landing heel first and moves very well when the ground is soft or even semi-soft. His breakover seems to be right. I believe we are going in the right direction and if I could hold off on the shoes he would probably be o.k. I am just worried with the inflammation he seems to have due to the hard ground, I may be making things worse. I'll see what the farrier thinks, but I am pretty sure he won't offer up an opinion. I really want to get him sound for riding or I am afraid with the grass coming he will be much more prone to founder. If kept in exercise I don't have to dry lot him, which makes him AND Me very happy!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 5:24 pm:
Dr.O. One more question before the farrier comes. The ground is not froze anymore and we should be thru the worst of that. (I hope)! Occasionaly at night it freezes up hard and Hank is pretty sore on that until it thaws. On the thawed out ground he is 95%, the red rings are disappearing and his bounding pulses come and go.... he has them more than not tho. They are bounding very hard in all 4 feet....usually. The pulses seem to be getting quieter daily.
I want to ride Hank when his hooves are better and this weather breaks. Considering he is SLOWLY improving would you think shoeing is still advisable? I do worry about the inflammation that is still seemingly going on. Do you think it would help him if I only did 1 shoeing cycle and then tried barefoot again, just to get the soles some relief for awhile? Or would that set us back in our barefoot "adventure"? Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 8:46 pm:
Diane, Glad to hear things are a little bit better. Hear goes as a bare foot advocate. sorry in advance.
The more riding the better it stimulates everything as long as he doesn't have pain. boots. Old macs and nice soft pads to help with pain and bruising. They also help stimulate everything they get him walking properly as they stop allot of the pain issues,
The more the movement the better, but of course you don't want pain as then they walk wrong and aggravate everything. The boots might sound expensive but they can last 6 months to a year. I used them when mine was lame for a month or 2 then only after trimming and now they are a stand by. Please don't shoe if he is improving. Boots for riding are the best intention ever made. now they have pads that stimulate the frog etc and make them feel like you are riding on nice soft ground where ever you are. Don't go back yet at least till you try some good boots and pads. I will send you a free pair of pads if you buy the old macs. thats how much I think he will love them. Hey can shoes protect the whole hoof? No! boots protect the everything. You can get bruises etc with shoes but not with boots. Hey they take 5 minutes but save your horse and your wallet.
Ok now you can say stop babbling.
Hugs
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 6:30 am:
This is a excerpt from my late Feb posting above:
DrO
I would suggest treating as recommended in Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming until the soreness resolves. Looking over how this all started in began with a trimming episode. Once sound, you should consider shoeing this horse. They need to be careful to not load the sole with the inner edge of the shoe.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 6:32 am:
Katrina, I went that route with my other gelding Sam. He is barefoot now and I don't have to use the boots much anymore to ride him, so I do have Old Macs....no pads tho.
Hank just seems so much worse than Sam was. He's been barefoot since Nov. and has gotten worse instead of better. I worry about pedal osteitis and stress founder setting in. He isn't even comfortable in the pasture unless it is soft.
I had to shoe Sam for 2 years before I was able to let him go barefoot and he has much stronger feet than Hank....I don't know. I'll have to see what Dr.O. thinks.
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Member:
tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 6:17 pm:
Hi Diane,
I've been following your post, and would just like to add something. Keep in mind, this comes from a barefoot advocate, so take that into consideration.
In my opinion, the horses foot cannot be prepared for barefoot, by nailing shoes on it. To me, they are two different paths, either the barefoot route, or the shod route. When shoes are nailed on, it casts in it's "unloaded" state, it's non-weightbearing state. When a horse's foot is weightbearing (or loaded), it expands just a little bit. A nailed-on shoe will not allow the foot to expand and contract with every step. So, naturally, this will decrease the amount of blood flow to the hooves, thus the hooves will not be as "strong" as a barefoot hoof.
Although you will obviously be the one to make the decision on Hank's care (and I would support any decision you make), I would urge you to try boots on him. With boots, his foot can still expand and contract the way that it's supposed to, thus, with every step, he will be healing.
Anyway, my two cents.
Nicole
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 7:14 pm:
Thanks Nicole, I think my argument would have to be that Hank has got to be somewhat sound for his hooves to get strong. The on going inflammation has got to be doing damage to something in there. Getting him sound with shoes and removing the inflammation would help on his road to barefoot....I think, it did my other horse.
He WAS VERY sore on the hard frozen ground. Since the warmer temps and rain he is more comfortable, but I wouldn't call him sound...and the ground is very soft.
Boots are great, I have them, but I don't THINK Hank is ready for barefoot yet. The poor horse has suffered with sore feet all winter and I can't say there is any improvement, except on VERY soft ground.
A little history on Hank that might help is years ago I had a VERY GOOD barefoot trimmer. When I started riding him after he was broke as a 3 yr. old he was onery and very cranky. It took awhile but I finally figured out that his feet hurt. The trimmer I had at the time did not believe in shoes... because of expansion and contraction, the frog being the "pump" etc., believe me I am very well versed in barefoot....he even gave me a book to read on it. This farrier gave up on trying to get Hank barefoot and sound on hard ground.... he said he had thin soles that he could flex with his thumb pressure. This was when Hank was 3 and just broke. His hooves were in wonderful form, as this farrier was very good, he brought one of my mares back barefoot after a pretty major founder and derotated her to 0 degrees rotation. However he gave up on Hank and said he just wasn't a barefoot canidate and put shoes on him.... broke the guys heart but Hank just wouldn't stay sound barefoot on hard surfaces for very long. After the shoes Hanks training progressed much better and he wasn't so sulky and miserable. He was always able to go barefoot in the winter mos. when I wasn't riding him on the hard roads and rock. If I could accomplish winter barefoot I would be happy, but that is proving a challenge now too....maybe next year.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 7:16 am:
Diane how does he walk with the boots on. Just curious. Do they help him?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 7:26 am:
Katrina they help a little, but I can't leave them on 24/7. I think at this point his soles need some relief 24/7. The ground is very soft right now, it is suppose to rain the next few days. I am sure that will just soften up those soles all the more and make him more prone to injury when the ground hardens again...that is how it all started actually....mud and rain, than hard ground. I think he would have been o.k. otherwise. Leave it to mother nature!
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 12:30 pm:
bummer, i guess i would put shoes on. I hope they help. Good luck
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 8:26 pm:
The farrier was here today and we put a wide web shoe on Hank. He routed the shoe so there would be no sole contact. The bruising for the most part is almost gone. He didn't want to get to over zealous in his trimming considering how sore Hank has been.
Hank was SOOOOO much more comfortable when he was done, I hope in a weeks time he will be back to normal. I will take pics tomorrow to see what you all think. He was 95% sound on hard ground and 100% on soft. He isn't standing with his back legs tucked under anymore either. YEAH!!!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 12:09 pm:
Thank goodness for great farriers! For you and Hank a HUGE YEAH!! Cindy
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 8:55 pm:
Great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So happy for you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 11:18 pm:
Thanks, he was standing all stretched out today with his back leg cocked, instead of all camped under... haven't seen him that comfortable in quite awhile. I want to get pics of his new trim job for opinions, if the sun would shine. Hopefully tomorrow.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 10:36 am:
New pics, they aren't the best....mud is everywhere.
I think you can see the difference still. The bruising is gone in the sole shot, his heel seems more upright, and the flare is better.
He came galloping up to me when I went out, he had been throwing his head and walking slowly. Today I would call him 98% sound on hard ground. The digital pulses are back to normal (very hard to find). I would have like to seen the shoe extend back further in the heel area.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 10:41 pm:
Just a little update, I guess Hank is a horse who can't go barefoot. I rode him Sat in the bean fields, corn fields, and a little on the paved road.
The boy didn't miss a beat! Picked up his right lead willingly, something he wouldn't do barefoot, and actually collected a little on a straight line. His bend was much better and he was just a more relaxed, happy fellow. Considering he hasn't seen a saddle since Dec. I was very happy. Thanks all for your help.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 7:24 am:
That's very good to hear Diane!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 6:54 am:
Thanks LL he continues to be sound and happy. His pottery walk is completely gone and his stride is full and flowing again. I can almost see the smile on his face! He is back to RUNNING around the pasture and fighting with the other gelding.
I am hoping maybe he can go barefoot next winter, but I am kinda doubting it, it seems that's when all his problems start....when the ground freezes hard.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 8:56 am:
Hi Dr.O. Winter has returned to the midwest and the ground is froze solid. Hank remains 100% sound with his shoes on, matter of fact I have not seen him move this well in years, even with shoes.
I know it is a little early to be thinking about next winter....but is there anything I can do from now til then to help him possibly go barefoot? With our weather in the winter and our hills it's just so much easier. Or are there just some horses that barefoot isn't possible? Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 1:17 pm:
That is great news Diane Maybe, just maybe, his feet needed a little breather and correct form? But needs the shoes now for support? I'm assuming that is what will happen for Brave, that I'll need to put shoes back on him eventually, but we need to see how his feet want to grow first.
For Hank, what I would do is start putting sole toughener on a few weeks before you take the shoes off. Is he on a hoof supplement? Brave is on Farrier's Formula and grows a lot of hoof and sole, whether it's because of the supplement, I don't know. Just my two cents...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 2:56 pm:
Thanks Aileen, it is wonderful to see him sound again! Right now I don't have him on a hoof supplement, his hoof wall is very good...very rarely chips or cracks, and it grows FAST on it's own.
The sole toughener would probably be the way to go, I suppose. I don't know if there is anything that will help THIN soles?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 6:23 am:
Hello Diane,
I would follow the instructions in the article on poor quality horn if you feel this is the problem.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 7:27 am:
Thanks Dr.O. his walls are very good, he seems to have a thin sole....bruises easily. Thin soles are probably genetic as he has always seemed to have had them. When I started using the old farrier is when he seemed to get ouchy in the winter.
Do long toes and underrun heels stretch the sole more thus making it thinner? In turn if we can get his hooves in correct form would that help thicken his soles??? or am I fighting a losing battle with mother nature? Thanks
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 11:48 am:
Diane,
I am fighting the same battle with my thin-soled, low-heeled, long-toed t-bred. My vet seems to think that we can grow sole now that we have proper shoes on him (7 degree wedges). She hopes that after 2-3 shoeings with these shoes there will be sole growth and we will be able to bring the wedge down a little. He has a sole depth of 8.18mm at the heel of his bad foot which is EXTREMELY thin. I guess only time will tell.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 5:00 pm:
Dawn it is quite a battle isn't it. Hanks feet are starting to look better every trim...thankfully he is fine in regular shoes. The sad part is I didn't stop it from happening in the first place.
Dr.O and the gang have us going in the right direction now.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 7:10 pm:
Dr.O. could the bruising in the above pics of Hanks feet cause abscesses to be forming now?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 8:11 am:
Diane, any horse could have developing abscesses Diane whether bruised or not. Generally bruises that turn to abscesses have days or weeks of low grade lameness following by rapidly worsening severe lameness.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 8:48 pm:
Dr.O. I guess I better come back to this thread. I am convinced Hanks soles are still bruised. I put the Davis barrier boots on him and he is 100%!! When putting them on I noticed his old bruising...from pics above is still there, except it is deep purple now. This bruising has been going on forever. Altho I think his last shoeing aggravated it as I forgot to tell the farrier to bevel the inside rim....which seemed to help his first shoeing. Should this bruising be pared away? The farrier hasn't been removing much sole beings we didn't know what the problem was before. I read the article again and decided hand walking with boots and cold soaks is the way to go. He always feels better after that. He remains on 1gr bute x 2 times a day, but I really want to at least get him down to 1 a day....he's been getting it for quite some time now. How do you know if a bruise is septic? Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 9:44 pm:
Sorry but a couple other questions,,,The barrier boots are rubber and his feet and soles do get wet in there. I would like to leave them on at night and off during the day, so they would be on about 12 hrs. more if you think it would be ok. With whiteline disease and thrush in the back of my head, would Aileens idea of some kind of medicated powder help? or even puting iodine on his soles help them from getting too soft? His soles are pretty hard right now.... just flat. Would leaving his hoof wall longer help with this? I believe shoeing will be in his future, BUT ...not until all this bruising is resolved. I just wanted to add this explains his pasture soundness, the ground is much softer with thick grass...their drylot and pen are very hard.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:09 am:
I left the boots on Hank over night and he isn't 100%, BUT he is not crippled and immobile as usual. He is able to rest his back legs, which he wasn't doing before the boots. His pulses and heat are dissipating. I think these boots are going to be his salvation, but what to do when they are off? I will try for pics this afternoon. I think I have my new computer mostly figured out....Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 9:19 am:
My old trimmer used to tell me to put gold bond powder in the boots. I never did, but she recomended it.
Katrina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:55 am:
Diane, when a bruised turns to an abscess the character of the lameness changes, see the May 6th posting above or the article on bruises and abscesses for more on this. I don't believe anything you put into the boot is likely to prevent the wetting effect on the walls and sole if the environment is wet.
DrO
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