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Discussion on Levi WDL Resection
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 12:16 pm:
I hope this works - Levi was diagnosed with WDL on Tues 2/20 The vet removed a large amount of hoof. He also has sidebones, his foot is collapsing onto the outside because of instability within his hoof wall, and he has rotation. I hope we finally got to the bottom of this and there is hope for my boy
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 12:43 pm:
Hugs to you Susan! Sending positive healing thoughts to Levi and prayers for strength to you!
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 3:28 pm:
Susan, Positive thoughts and prayers going your way. It's terrible as a "horse mom" to not be able to simply "fix it".
Best to you and Levi,
Shirl
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 5:11 pm:
Dr. O, one other quick question. My farrier had sold me this product called Farriers Hoof, a few months ago. The ingredients are:
Ionizede Copper .134%
Ionized Zinc .700%
Non Ionized surfacant 1.400%
Inert Material 97.770%
I tried to call the vet who worked on Levi, but he is out of town, my luck,
I sprayed this on his foot and used a tooth brush to clean it really good,(Sprayed the toothbrush with alcohol before and after) then dried with a paper towel, Squirted betadine in any holes and all over the pared out area, soaked cotton and duct taped his foot. I did it in the am, and then he mananged to get the door open and into the melting snow and yuck before I noticed, moisture did get onto the foot and cotton was wet. I brought him in and did the same procedure,I had him stand there for about 10 minutes to be sure his foot was dry. It is only day 2 and I am semi-crazy.
Before I use this pre spray (it is a liquid spray bottle), I thought I better make sure it would not conflict with the betadine treatment. He is brighter and eating as usual, gave him 1/2 a bute this am. putting weight on all 4, cleaned his feet and did not protest on the weight bearing of lifting his opposite foot.
Will be offering stock in a good wine, as I am sure sales will be going up the duration of treatment.
thanks
suz
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 5:36 pm:
Suz,
I hope this is the course that will provide permanent relief for Levi. I know its been quite a ride for you. I view WLD very differently and with much hope now after all the recent threads....it just looks so grizzly.
Take care, Ilona
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 6:02 pm:
Hi Susan, I had a situation like yours, I used "Fungidye" and it helped alot
https://www.healthyanimalsupply.com/fungidye.htm
And because I also needed to keep the area cleaned, I used an electric toothbrush to get into the nooks and crannies, worked like a charm!  I just made up my solutions and dipped the brush in and turned it on.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 12:09 am:
Hi Suz,
It’s me, Lee, who has Hanah (I think you got me confused with Lori on the last post you left on my thread)... I'm posting my reply back on your thread, as this is about Levi's case. I didn’t get a chance to talk to my vet today about the bute, but here are a couple of things I do remember; Hanah was never confined to a stall. She was first in a 20’x30’ paddock with a shelter where hay and water were in front of her at all times to keep her from moving around too much. Her foot was kept bandaged (changed daily) and in a boot – same as the blue one in one of my photos. When I saw her 5 days after the procedure she was weight bearing and shuffling around quite well – she did not appear horribly uncomfortable. Three weeks after the procedure she was relocated from the clinic to the vet’s house. They are about a mile from each other and Hanah was walked there (still wearing the boot) and she managed quite well. A week from then when I saw her (now a month from the procedure), the boot was off, and she was sound at the walk. She was in an area of about a quarter of an acre with another horse and she had no problems bossing him around from the time she arrived there until the time she left... She went from very lame to pasture sound a lot quicker than I thought she would. I hope knowing it may be possible for Levi to come around this quickly helps you feel better. I realize horses may each heal at different speeds for various reasons, but we must be positive and hope for the best!
Lee C
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 6:02 am:
Susan,
the solution looks like they dipped a penny and a piece of tin in a bottle of water with a touch of detergent to create this solution. I would not want to put the zinc on sensitive tissue however it is probably harmless but I would put a little betadine on a brush to clean with.
Linda, can you tell us what the ingredients and concentration of the Fungidye is? I went to the link and tried several other links but nowhere can I find the ingredients.
Susan have they done the derotation that is marked off in the last radiograph above?
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 8:23 am:
Thanks Dr. O, I will scrub with the betadine then. It is amazing how companies take advantage of peoples distress to make a buck.
The doc did not want to work on the derotation until he grew a little more foot. He and the farrier that works with him discussed this, and decided he would not have much to nail to. The farrier said he could nail on one side, and to the back of the heel, and glue the rest. He has been at this degree of rotation for probably 5 months now, so he is to go back up in 4 weeks, then he will put him in a raised heel shoe again.
He had just been trimmed 1 week before going to the vet in S.D.
suz
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 4:10 pm:
Dr.O, this is all that I found concerning the ingredients;
Ingredients: Chemotherapeutic agents, Organic trypanocide dyes. It does not contain formaldehyde or copper sulfate. Acriflavine HCL, Gentian Violet.
I don't have a bottle of it handy to actually read from it.
My vet and farrier prescribed this when my boy had a mild resection done to help in keeping the cut out areas protected.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 7:06 pm:
Thanks so much to all of you for your support. My Levi is such a trooper. He patiently stands there, munching his hay, while I mess with his foot. I think he thinks this is the only way life is for him.
He is strangely almost completely sound today. Walked him on concrete, no gimp at all. No bute today, I gave him 1/2 g. last night. It is very very windy here, so all the horses have been kept in all day. The site looks gruesome, but not mushy, so will keep working on daily scrubbing and bandaging.
He took off circling like a goofball, in his stall area tonight because of the wind, flipping his head, like he was feeling pretty darn good.
Phhhheeeeewwwww! Will sleep good tonight.
Talked to his vet today. He said he is worried about how unstable his foot is, and wants to wait to remove the shoe and work on the derotation till he grows a little foot, as he will have nothing to support his hoof once we remove the bottom of what is left of the resectioned area.
He has been living with this rotated foot for a while now, so I am not going to allow myself to worry about that.
You would think that the previous vet, (who yelled at me for "vet shopping") would have showed a little more concern over the fact that we were not improving the rotation in 8 months or more. He just kept telling me he is doing just great. Called it "lower heel pain synDrOme". Is that a code word for "I don't know what the heck is going on?" but don't want you to know that. He had the nerve to preach to me at one point that he spent "$100,000 on Vet School, so he thinks I should not have questioned him" All the symptoms that I and Levi presented to him, Hollow hoof sounds, breaking away hoof wall, shoes not staying on, are all in Dr. O's article, you think that would have been addressed in Hoof Care 101 don't you.
OK I've sounded off, now must move towards the future, and hopes that we are on the right track. I can't dwell on what was not done, only hope that someday I can ride this costly beast.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 7:28 am:
I hope this works out too suz.
Linda the methyl violet and I believe the acriflavine to a lesser extent are both tissue toxic. So while this may be useful for Thrush and WLD when there is no exposed sensitive tissue, I would prefer betadine until the tissue is completely cornified.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 2:14 pm:
Susan, I can certainly commisserate! But I am SO glad he's feeling better
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 4:34 pm:
Dr. O this was a while ago, so I sat and really thought about all the procedures I was doing and now remember that the vet had mentioned not to get it on an open sore on my hand and to keep it off his skin because it could burn, the main open spot had closed and was using it to help keep the remaining cut away areas protected as much as possible as I was having to do this in really wet and muddy conditions.
I also remember that I also used the betadine like you mentioned, that is where the electric tooth brush came in at that time because I was being very diligent in keep the hoof clean until everything grew out, and it was easier and faster to do that.
Thank you very much for being here and helping us all stay on the right track when our information isn't as complete as needed sometimes.
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 4:51 pm:
Susan, it's hard to go through something like this and you are doing a great job of keeping up with it. I'ts also very important that you, the vet, and your farrier all work together as a team to create the best road of recovery as possible for your horse and seeking a vet that will be part of the team is essential.
I wish you the best, yes it's probably going to be a long haul but all the work will be worth it when he wipes his soft dirty nose all over your clean shirt and says "let's go for a ride mom"
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 8:05 pm:
Thanks Aileen and Linda, it brought a tear to my eye when you mentioned his soft dirty nose . . ., I don't know anyone who has a coming 7 year old horse that has probably been ridden as many times in his life as he is old. Always something wrong with him. I think he just want to guarantee his life as a pasture ornament.
This AM, the tape had pulled away from his foot, but the cotton was still mushed up in the cut, and it appeared dry.
We are having a major ice storm here, electric was out for 2 hours, so horses all are kept in the barn. Makes it easier on me keeping him confined for now.
Aileen, we must introduce Levi and Brave someday, so they can talk behind our backs about what they put us through.
Linda, I do have complete confidence in this vet from South Dakota, it is so far away, and very difficult for me to get away from here, but ....... what choice do I have really.? I may have the farrier he works with work on Levi for the time being. He is triple the price of my farrier here, and rather arrogant, but I really must get this guy on the right track. Keep your fingers crossed for us.
suz
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 8:21 pm:
My fingers are crossed for you susan, Hugs to you both. chin up.
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 11:24 pm:
Hi Susan, good news on it being dry. That would be tough having him (your vet) so far away, so it would be really important to actually write down things that he says about taking care of the foot etc (although you will discover that you will have turned pro after a while of doing this haha) this way you won't stress out trying to remember things, you could also ask him if there is someone he could recommend so in an emergency there would be someone closer to you that could help if he couldn't make it. The vet I had always had another vet take her place when she was gone or was dealing with another issue.
If the farrier and your vet are on the same page as far as what to do then that might be your best shot if nothing else. Remember though it isn't going to be a quick fix, this process will take some time and you really need to take one day at a time hon.
It's very frustrating I know, and it hurts us to see our kids not feel well, have a boo-boo or in pain. You are a very good mom, and you are doing a terrific job, and you will continue to do a terrific job. Good luck with the ice storm.
I also had a wonderful boy who had maladies galore starting when he was 3 but we worked together through every single one of them, some of them took as long as 2-3 years to fix up, some we couldn't fix and had to just deal with it, but it was all worth it and we had to compensate in several areas but we still had fun.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 9:30 am:
Best wishes for Levi. Keeping you all in my prayers.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:28 am:
Fingers crossed! Yes, I think Brave and Levi would have a great time together
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 12:24 pm:
Glad to hear you have a team working together (vet, farrier... and yourself). You've created the best circumstances you can for him to get better - the rest is up to his mind and body. Fingers and toes are crossed for you both!
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 4:59 pm:
Thanks everyone. After being cooped up for several days, we have 6 inches of clean snow, so I let the boys out today. I wrapped Levis foot in a plastic bag and put on his old mac boot. He blasted out the door, head swinging in glee. I only let them out for about an hour to get some fresh air. HOwever the old mac boot did not keep the foot dry, when I brought him in the to change the bandage the cotton was wet. I scrubbed with betadine, and let him air dry for about 1/2 hour before re-wrapping. I took my hoof knife and scrapped at it for good measure. He is a bit gimpy today, but I am sure this is because of his instability. He seemed really good the other day, but I am sure that was from not moving around much.
Anyone have any suggestions on boots that would fit over the shoe and bandage, that I could put on temporarily to give him some turn out time.
Lee, can you find out from your vet what that blue boot was that she had on Hannah, and would it fit over a shoe. I would not want to keep it on long, to trap moisture, but just to put on when he gets out in the pen.
Linda, I have been to every vet within a hundred mile radius. That is why I was accused of Vet shopping. This guy I have to drive to, and there is no one closer that has been able to help me.
The farrier I have been working with is coming tomorrow to do my other horses. I hope we can return to him for farrier, but for now, I will have to bite the bullet and pay the farrier up in Southdakota. Rick charges $50.00 for a reset, this guy was $190 a crack.
I am going to have to sell Clyde, our paint, to afford to keep up with Levi.
Any advice on the boot, let me know.
suz
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
Susan maybe a nice fitting soaking boot. They come up pretty high. If you are only usuing it for an hour or so it might work. I have one and Blaze can walk around it quiet well. Dont know about cantering around though. they stay on pretty well.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 5:41 pm:
Hi Suz,
Below is a link to the boot (and others) that we used for Hanah. If it is really wet, you may not be able to do it up tight enough around the fetlock to make it completely waterproof. However, you could bandage his lower leg and use duct tape to seal the boot to the bandage. I don't know that I would use this method for long periods of time, but I'm sure an hour would be fine. Dr O might want to comment on that one...
Lee C
https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easy_soakers/EasySoakers.aspx
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 6:41 pm:
I just looked up the easysoaker in www.kvvetsupply.com My sister-in-law is the VP of the company, so I try to buy stuff from them. There is another product on the same page called a hooftector heavy duty poultice boot. It goes up way higher on the leg. I wonder how that would stay on. Anyone use one of these?
If you type in the boot page or easysoaker, it will come up. What do ya all think???
suz
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 6:53 pm:
Lee thats the one I was talking about.
Susan I never tried the hoofector, I am going to the site to look them up now
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 6:56 pm:
The hooftector looks great. They look like they would stay on better than the easy soakers. I might just have to buy a pair. Thanks for the link
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 11:33 pm:
Hey Suz,
When you get a sec, let us know how you and Levi are doing...
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 1:07 pm:
Dr. O & Lee and everyone. I am going to try to upload pics from today. 1 week post procedure. Levi is still gimpy, but he was before, that is why we went to the the vet in the first place. I beleive this is because we are not addressing his other problems yet.
Dr. O, if you can see the 2 caverns at the top of the resection, I am dumping betadine in them, and packing. Also using a brass brush to rough it up before packing and loading up the betatdine. Anything else I should be doing?
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 6:55 pm:
I was also wondering if it would be ok to put an old mac pad under Levi's foot for part of the day. It is thin rubber=shaped to the bottom of his hoof. If I could duct tape that on, as well as the stuffing the cotton on the resection. It seems that this horribly moist weather around here, even though he has been kept inside, there still seems to be moisture wicking up from the bedding, I assume. I have been changing his bandage 2 x day. I have been letting him be bandage free for about 2 hours am and 1 hour pm on a dry dirt floor. Is this OK???
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 6:47 am:
Susan, in the wet weather I would not be applying a bandage because of the difficulty keeping it dry. Why not just spray betadine on the pared away areas?
DrO
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:04 am:
Susan - When we lived in Washington State - rain all winter every day - Lady lost the whole front of her hoof from white line - to keep it dry I bandaged it then cut off a pellet bag - really heavy duty plastic - and duct taped that on her foot. Looked really silly - but it kept her foot dry. If you don't burn pellets maybe you know someone who does.
Cheryl
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 5:34 pm:
Thanks Cheryl, I tried that today, with a safechoice bag, because it to is supposed to be heavy duty. It seemed to work great, but after 2 hours, when I got back home, the pad was ripped off, the bag was around his ankles, flopping in the wind. Did not get too wet though, as it started to sleet,and he came in the barn.
I have him drying right now, will re-wrap tonight. I don't want any poop/bedding getting jammed in there overnight.
Are those caverns or whatever they are normal? I have just been scrubbing them and dumping betadine in the hole
He is still gimpy though.
Will let you know how the new boot works out. I got the hooftector boot yesterday, but it was the size of clown boots on the poor guy. I re-ordered at smaller size. They remind me of the old fashioned rubber boots that kids use to wear with snaps. I think if the fit is right they will stay on really well.
suz
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 11:03 pm:
Dr O,
I too was wondering about the 'caverns' that Susan has mentioned. Why would the outermost part of the hoof not have been removed from those areas, so they would be more exposed and more easily kept clean? Has it been done as it has because the 'design' offers some kind of additional support? The caverns bother me... I mean, it would not take much paring or grinding to eliminate them (at least by what I'm seeing in the pics) and then one could better see what's going on in those areas, in case something 'evil' starts to grow again...
Hey Suz,
Ha-ha! The 'clown boots' image reminds me of the first boot they put on Hanah when they took her shoe off before the procedure (smallest one the vet had with her at the time). The next morning it was turned completely around, so it looked like her leg was on backwards. She didn't seem to notice, but I couldn't help laughing!
Lee C
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Member:
freshman
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 12:28 am:
Susan,
Ask your vet to give you some used, empty 5-liter IV fluid bags. They are a nice size to use on the foot, very tough, and free.
If she has a large clinic, she should have an endless supply for you. An ambulatory vet should still have some for you, but I wouldn't hesitate to call a large equine practice and ask them to toss them aside for you to pick up regularly. They won't mind at all, and you'll get far more than you could ever use.
I think the fluid bags work best, but you could also ask your vet to get you some of the disposable plastic boot covers that they use for isolation cases. They are designed to be walked around on, and are fairly tough. They are sort of costly, though.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:12 am:
Lee, from the photos I cannot really assess are there areas that are actually difficult to treat and visualize. I agree there is no reason to undercut the wall and to the degree it prevents treatment and visual assessment of ALL margins of defect whe normal wall and white line, a mistake.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:30 am:
Dr. O, when they originally cut the foot away,the lower little cavern area began to drip blood. Is that possibly why he did not keep cutting away? He used a "bone knife" little rounded knife edge, to dig inside there. I keep roughing in up with the brass brush.
Unfortunately he is 2 hours away, we are in a blizzard, and the farrier is 4 hours away. The farrier was here on Monday, and said it looked good. But as we all know, my confidence in anyone is limited.
Will do my best to keep it clean and dry. I will keep an eye on it, and if it keeps degrading, will take him back up sooner than the 4 week suggested follow up.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 4:31 pm:
Hi Gail,
My guess is they probably did stop when it started to bleed, as they hit sensitive tissue (a good thing), Dr O...??? However, I just wondered why they didn’t remove what appears to be a ‘hood’ of outer hoof wall in those areas, which wouldn’t have been sensitive nor caused any further pain - am I right, Dr O? Although one can tell there are caverns in the photos, it is hard to tell how deep they really are – can you give us an approximate measurement of depth? Perhaps they are no big deal at all, as it sounds like you are on top of keeping the areas clean – maybe we are worrying about something that doesn’t need to be worried about...
Lee C
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 4:37 pm:
Oops, sorry, I mean Suz, I'm talking to Gail on another thread and had a blonde moment
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:17 pm:
Lee, I did a good exam with a flashlight, and the little caverns are really only about 1/8 of an inch deep, maybe my scrubbing with the brass brush is making them a bit deeper than when the doc trimmed his foot back. I will ask that they trim that back next trip.
If I leave the packing and bandage off, his foot has really been staying dry, even walking back and forth in the bedding. I continue to wrap it during the pm, as he is standing in his deeper bedded stall, with wet bedding from his pee and poops.
The blizzard kept the UPS driver away, so no boot today.
Kristin, I will try to acquire those items if the boot does not work, but I sure hope the hooftector boot works out. My feed store had the clear boots that they use in hog confinements but they talked me out of them, saying that they are really smooth on the bottom and can be really slippery. don't need another problem to deal with on all this ice and snow.
Stay warm all
suz & Levi
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:48 pm:
He Everyone, It has been 2 weeks since the resection. Levi has an appointment 2/20 with the vet and farrier to hopefully address his rotation issues as well.
I have been trying to get a boot to fit Levi's foot. Wondering if anyone has had any luck with boots.
I have ordered the hooftector, 1 too small 1 too large. I just tried the easy soaker, measured and ordered to measurement. med. too small for sure, large is the size of the bottom of his foot, but can't get it over his foot. I am going to try the x=large. It is so frustrating, but everything I have wrapped on his foot comes off.
Will check on the 5 lt. i.v. bags that Katrina suggested.
He is still off, but that is to be expected.
Any other boot ideas, if the x/large easy soaker does not fit?
thanks
suz
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 8:02 pm:
Susan, I used a "Sabre Sneaker" on my boy with great success, maybe this would work for you as well.
www.sabresneaker.com
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 8:49 pm:
Thanks Linda, are they not the cutest things you ever saw. I can just see Levi, playing Tennis, running a marathon, shooting some hoops~
I ordered an x-large easy boots, and a Davis boot, they should be here tomorrow, so I will see if one of them fits. If not we will try the sabresneaker, thanks.
I am worried about when all of this snow melts, it will be a mud hole here. Thanks again for the tip.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 6:56 am:
Susan, maybe I missed it above, what is the reason for putting a boot on? When it is wet outside, I find boots just trap it against the foot.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 8:44 am:
Hi Dr. O, I guess everything I have read about this fungus stuff, is that I must keep the foot dry. Right now it is clean snow that we are dealing with, so after I let Levi out for a morning run around, I have been bringing him in and taking off the duct tape, and keeping him in a dry stall. I brush out his resectiion, and squirt betadine on the hoof. I then wrap it at night, packed with cotton and betadine.
When this snow melts, it is going to be rivers of mud. What would I do to keep his foot clean, and let him get a bit of exercise. Do you suggest not letting him out at all then when the mud starts?
I was following Lees WLD story and her vet had her horse in this easy soaker boot, so that is where I got the idea?
Having trouble fitting a boot on his weird foot as it is.
thanks
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 12:11 pm:
Dr. O, Levi went out for a few minutes, while we got some hay down, when I looked out the door, he was standing with his back foot crooked, and dripping blood on the snow.
I brought him in and it appears that the sharp chards of ice falling from the buildings, sliced his "ankle", in the back. I put pressure on it and it stopped bleeding rather quickly. I flushed it with betadine, and put sterile guaze on, wrapped with vet wrap for now. Would I be better off leaving that unwrapped, and should I put some flurazine or use the betadine?? It looks like a superficial cut, and he is putting full weight on it now. I think it just happened when he came running in to the barn.
I think I will wrap him in bubble wrap from today on.
thanks
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 7:57 pm:
Well, we have flooding in the barn, Levi is confined to the center aisle, I took the vet wrap off, and his ankle is swollen, kinda puffy and warm. I have no way of cold hosing with out further flooding the barn, so I draped it with a cold wet towel, a bunch of times, then squirted betadine in the cut, it is only about 1/2 " wide, and maybe a 1/4" deepish, hard to tell, then I put some of the yellow flura something or other on it, all over the ankle too. I left it unwrapped for the night, hope that is ok, I wondered if the wrapping would make it swell more, or if it did, it would be too tight. Anyone know if that is the thing to do?
suz
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 11:53 pm:
Hi Suz,
It's Lee here. Well, your horse has been afflicted with one of each of what both of mine have been going through... Hanah - the WLD and my 2 yr old, Sienna with a cut on her hind fetlock, which is healing, but taking it's time. Go to my thread on this and it might help give you some ideas. First Aid/Wound and Proud Flesh Care/Questions about wound. Mine didn't work to bandage for reasons you will read, but it is probably the best thing to do if it's over a joint (helps keep it from tearing open as it tries to heal). I don't believe Betadine full strength is a good idea, as I think it encourages proud flesh, and I don't think Furacine is good for the same reason. An antibacterial (I think Dr. O suggests Neosporin) ointment is best with then a non stick bandage material over the wound and then wrap it. The wrapping should help keep the swelling down unless there are further complications, like a puncture into the joint or something embedded - maybe Dr O can offer some advice in that department... Oh boy, you just can't get a rest! I feel for ya...
Lee C
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 4:25 am:
I agree with Lee. Demetrius got a rope type burn under his fetlock two summers ago after he ripped and got caught in his flysheet, (before I was a member here) the vet wrapped his fetlock for the injury which was slightly adjacent which he instructed me to leave on for three days it swelled so bad with edema (his joint was the size of a football) it scared me. Then with the swelling which had to leave somewhere and choose the point of least resistance there was just weeping of serous type fluid from the wound for weeks that would scab open scab open. If we had not wrapped and just followed the wound care I think he would have been better off.
Anyway, yes bubble wrap should suffice for Levi. Hope he is better today and know we are all here to support you when he gets into things.
Also thanks for the advice you gave me on the Robbie the dog. He is back to his old self thanks to your suggestions.
Take care,
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 7:24 am:
Concerning the wound Susan, follow the instructions in Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Wounds / Burns » Wounds: First Aid Care and follow the link to the long term wound care. If you can't hose the wound soap and water then rinse will suffice. Pastern wounds normally get badly contaminated without wrapping and you will find links in the above articles on bandaging.
Once the WLD is completely removed, the foot is not prone to recurrence with daily treatment. Yes you should keep the foot dry but that is dry as is practical. It is rare a boot will help you achieve this goal.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 4:38 pm:
Thanks everyone. I decided, in Levi, the walking accident waiting to happen" I had better call the vet for a double check.
He was not that concerned, in fact the swelling had gone down some by 12:00. He said it was not too soon to give him his annual 5 way booster which included the tetnus, and then gave him a loading dose of penicillin. He left some other antibiotic powder, telling me if I thought he needed it to give it to him.
The cut is barely visible, you have to dig through the hair to find it.
I did cover it with duct tape, and taped his front foot with duct tape, and let him out for an hour. I am thinking we might get a spot on the Red Green show!
He seems content to be inside as long as their is free choice hay to nibble on.
Thanks, I feel better having had at least the tetnus and antibiotic to be preventative. I don't want to give the powder antibiotic, if I don't have to, so we don't have diarrhea problems down the road.
Will keep you all posted, thanks for the suggestions
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 10:23 pm:
Dr. O, and all. Levi had his one month vet visit today. He was quite impressed with how great it looked, however he did find one little speck that he dug out. He is still a bit lame.
The farrier then proceeded to cut back his heel to work on the rotation, nailed on the new shoe, started cutting back his toe, and discovered that the inside of his hoof also had extensive white line disease. He started digging around, and white powdery stuff kept coming out. the hoof knife was buried. They cut away as high on the other side of his hoof, not as far back.
He is now on a very compromised foot.
I will try to post a picture when I get back.
Along with all the bad news, I got a call on Saturday that they found my brother dead in his apartment in Arizona. He was only 57, he was a Vietnam Vet, who was exposed to Agent Orange and developed Luekemia. He also suffered from severe Post traumatic stress, so although we expected it someday, you still are not prepared. They are flying him back home to Pittsburgh, so I will be there for a week.
I am hoping I can count on my help to keep Levis'feet clean and dry. I will be keeping him pretty confined so he does not blow his foot out of the hoof capsule that he has left.
Thanks to you all for being here for me.
Suz
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 11:11 pm:
Suz,
My thoughts and prayers go out to you and Levi and for your family over the loss of your brother. It tugs at my heart strings when vets who have sacraficed are forgotten. In our family Vets always have a special place in our hearts and we will always go out of way to help one in need....and hopefully the same tragedy that has fallen on the vets of Vietnam won't fall upon those who are coming home from the middle east forever changed.
God Bless for everyone!
I am sending you a private email! We are here for you!
God Bless,
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 8:46 am:
Susan, my deepest condolences on your brother and my thoughts are with you.
Your farriers findings on the foot strongly suggest they are not paring out all the infection. Be sure that when done all pared away margins are clearly visible and there are no little spots of chalky material remaining. When done treat all margins daily aggressively with a formaldehyde product.
DrO
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 9:39 am:
Dear Susan,
My deepest condolences on the loss of your brother.
Healing thoughts to you and your family,
Lilo
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 10:29 am:
Susan wish you were closer, i would take care of Levi while you were gone..
thoughts and prayers coming your way..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
sonoita
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 10:57 am:
You and your family are in my prayers.
Have a safe trip.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 11:17 am:
Susan, with deepest regard to your family, know that your family here will keeps prayers and best wishes coming your way, always !! Cindy
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 11:55 am:
Susan,
My deepest condolences for you and your family.
I feel for you [also on account of Levi] and wish there was anything I could do for you.
Jos
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 3:36 pm:
Susan,
My deepest sympathy goes out to you and your family at the tragic loss of your brother.
Know that I am sending my very best wishes out to you and I hope that things start turning around for Levi.
Fran
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 4:46 pm:
Susan, so sorry about your brother! my brother is also a veteran with severe emotional fallout--coincidentally moved to Arizona recently for a fresh start. I have fears of getting the same phone call.
God bless your brother for his gift to our country, so sorry he suffered for it.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 9:33 pm:
Hi Suz,
So very, very sorry to hear about your brother. Heartfelt condolences to you and your family.
Also sorry to hear about Levi's new troubles. Update us on his condition when you can.
Hugs to you,
Lee C
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 9:37 pm:
Oh, Susan, such overwhelming sadness.....please take good care of yourself.
You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 11:15 pm:
Suz,
I've just got back to read this. I am so sorry to hear of the death of your brother. He served his country in a war that was so unpopular at the time and for that alone he is forever a hero. Loss is so very painful.
Take care of yourself. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 10:21 pm:
Thanks to all of you for your kind words about my brother, and of course my horse as well.
The service went well. A friend of mine lined up the Vietnam Vet Motorcyle guys to escort my brothers procession. That, and the Honor Guard really gets to you.
Of course being gone just after the new resection, I was not able to keep up with my neurotic cleaning. I just got back the other day, and it appears there is a bit more of the chalky white stuff at the bottom of his hoof.
The vet did NOT remove all of the hoof wall towards the coronary band. There is definately a hollow space that goes almost all the way up to the coronory band. His explanation was that because of his severe rotation, he wanted to leave hoof wall there to support his foot. This makes it very hard to see if there is any active fungus in this area.
I have been dumping the betadine up there, but he did not want me to use a formyldahyde product, as he thought it might kill any live tissue as well.
I agree with you Dr. O that I need to get super aggressive with this, and can't imagine that I would not want to use a product that will kill this gunk quickly.
There are a million products in the catalogues claiming use for white line, but they do not list ingredients. What product would you suggest I try to find???
I have e-mailed the same picture I am attaching to the vet in S.Dakota, and my farrier will be here tomorrow. I am hoping he can advise Rick on what to do. They did cut down his heel, and put on the "tracme shoe" with the raised heel. He did not take an x-ray before or after doing this, they went on the old x-ray from a month before. I thought that was odd.
Levi is about a 4 out of 10 (10 being really lame) on lameness. He puts weight on it at all times, walks gimpy, but will shift his weight bearing from front to back on his bad foot. Meaning he stands with it out front sometime, behind, and directly underneath him, so he does not seem to be uncomfortable unless walking. He is not on any bute.
My next home will be right next to a really tremendous vet clinic. Any room in your neighborhood Dr. O????
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 11:07 pm:
Goodness Susan, good luck with Levi! I didn't realize he had severe rotation....when did that happen?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 8:07 am:
Susan, in my opinion your veterinarian is making a mistake. You cannot treat the WLD in the unexposed areas and since the supporting insensitive laminae has "rotted away" the overlying wall that has been undermined by WLD is not supporting the coffin bone.
There is nothing to loose by removing this nonsupporting horn and everything to gain treatment-wise.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 1:22 pm:
I am so sad, I don't know what to do. I have run out of veterinarians within a 100 mile radius. My farrier called the vet in S.D. He just said the same thing, he did not want to compromise his foot, and to take a "bone knife" or similar and dig away at any white line disease.
The farrier and I tried to cut away with a hoof knife and nippers a little more, but he was reluctant to take off his shoe, because they had it set it where they wanted to correct the rotation problem.
I really need to find an aggressive spray treatment to use at least until we get back up to the vet in 2 weeks for his next appointment. What products have a formeldahyde base???
I know that the next visit they are going to take away more hoof wall, so why did they not do it the first time. What do you do when you question what they are doing and they say they are right. I have run out of vets in the area.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 1:58 pm:
Susan do a search on Clean Trax.
I have heard that it has cured white line when nothing else has worked. This is supposed to penetrate. I have no evidence of this. Just testimonials of farriers and trimmers.
one link https://www.equinepodiatry.net/What%20others%20are%20saying.htm.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 2:00 pm:
PS you can e-mail them and show pictures and get there advice. That is to the link above
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 4:24 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I checked out the site. Also went through and read some posts on Clean Trax on HA. My only problem with using this product, is that Levi has his aluminum shoe on. My farrier was reluctant to remove it, and he has gone back to Nebraska anyhow. So It probably won't work with the shoe on from what I have researched.
One of my customers is an orthopedic surgeon. He is going to find me a small "bone knife" he called it something else curt . .. something or other. I am hoping that if I can get into the crevice and scrape it out for now, and keep dumping the betadine in till I can find another product to try.
It is so wearing on the braincells.
Thanks
suz
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 4:40 pm:
Susan, I'm sorry to hear that the saga continues!
I had a thread on here about my mare, Cleo and her WLD, with a crack in her hoof that wouldn't go away.
I tried and tried to get my vet and trimmer to take off the wall as per Dr. O's recommendation, to no avail. So I had a choice of either winging it by myself (NO way!!) or treating with Clean Trax.
After a long time, the crack is now finally grown out and the hoof seems to have good integrity. I guess I can be a new testimonial to Clean Trax.
I'll try to update the pictures in my own thread when I can. The horse is in training and has been ridden daily for some time now so I guess no more problems.
I can imagine how heartsick you are about your ordeal. That is a lot to go through not to get it all. I guess they just weren't aggressive enough?
I would say to try the Clean Trax anyway while the other treatment is going on. Can't hurt, might help. I hope you can resolve it.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 10:08 pm:
Hi Suz,
I am so frustrated for you! From what I have learned in the case of my mare Hanah and her WLD, Dr. O is right (of course!). There is nothing there to support the coffin bone anyway, so it does not make sense that they would be working on trying to re-align it at this point. Instead they should be removing all that is necessary to reach sensitive/healthy tissue. Once healthy tissue starts to grow back, the coffin bone will start to re-align. There is a chance it won't be 100%, but until all the bacteria/fungus is removed, the chances are even less that the horse will recover at all - correct me if I'm wrong Dr. O. I do not think this can be treated successfully any other way. From my understanding, you can keep putting stuff on the surface of the bacteria/fungus, but it's what's behind that surface that is the living 'evil' that will keep eating away at whatever tissue is left. For those of you who have had success without removing all the bad stuff, I'd say buy a lottery ticket, because you are lucky! My vet showed me pictures of some pretty severe re-sections where the shoe was held on with clips and other little doo-dads for support, so it's hard for me to believe they can't be more aggressive with Levi. Sorry if I sound angry, but I am, as I don't think you or your horse are getting what you need to recover from this. I will continue to keep my fingers crossed for you and Levi.
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 11:09 pm:
Thanks Lee, I don't understand why I can not get this poor horse the help he deserves. His spirits are high, infact really high, as he wants to get out and run and play. This is our 3rd Spring that we have met with problems, instead of the joy normal horses get to feel.
I tried to get my farrier to be more aggressive, but he confered with the vet and did what the vet said to do.
I am going to call the clean trax manufacture tomorrow, and see if the shoe will be a problem. Also Dr. Follows, my surgeon client is going to order me a currette or something that I can scrape away at the edge of the resection. The farrier said he felt solid hoof at all exposed areas.
I am so tired of fighting this fight, but I have no choice but to keep trying to find someone to help me with my boy. He just looks at me with those big brown eyes, begging to just let him be a horse!
We are getting into our busy season, it is so hard to get him to a vet 2 hours away, or I would keep bringing him in and bugging him.
I will just keep trying to do what I can for him.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 8:03 am:
Katrinia it is not the product you use so much as a thorough removal of all infected material that cures WLD, when properly debrided treatment is easy with any antiseptic, without it, it does not matter much what you use. I cannot emphasize this principle enough.
Susan, ThrushBuster has formaldehyde in it. The doctor is referring to a "curette" and it looks like a tiny melon scoop but you will get further faster with a Dremel and steel burr on the end.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 8:27 am:
Susan, I totally agree with Dr. O and Lee here. I didn't mean to infer that Clean Trax alone would cure the infection.
I understand your frustration, because no matter what I pushed my vet and trimmer for, they balked at doing a resection and kept telling me "it doesn't look that bad". Yet Cleo had the crack for a year and a half without improvement! I am familiar with frustration!
Like you probably do, I pride myself on educating myself whenever there is an issue. I don't like being told that I don't know what I'm talking about!
But in my case I would have had to do the resection myself if I wanted it done. I seriously thought about it! But I can't even do a proper trim and didn't want to cripple poor Cleo. So that's why I took the route of the Clean Trax. My trimmer swears by it, and in this case it seems to at least have made an improvement. Time will tell if it comes back, though. I am suspicious myself about a total cure. We'll see...
Hope you get through this okay with Levi.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 10:20 am:
Susan, I have no advice to add to the above, but I just get so ANGRY on your behalf, and I had to express it!
It's SO frustrating when you can't get vets and farriers to accept the really logical and professional advice on this site. I completely understand how you feel you have nowhere to turn, and meanwhile your horse is looking to you to help him.
All the best in solving this infuriating and unnecessary problem.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 12:00 pm:
Oh Susan, I echo Lynn...
Maybe just do the cleantrax until you can find someone to listen to common sense?
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 12:33 pm:
I understand DR O. I thought it couldn't hurt until someone could remove the infected areas for her. What I liked was that it not supposed to irritate healthy tissue. They say(don't know if its true or not just repeating). That stuff like betadine can also damage the healthy tissue making it susceptible to it spreading as the fungus or what ever lives off dying or not healthy tissue. Your thoughts?
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 5:58 pm:
Dr. O, I have a question about how do you know when you have scraped out the white line fungus, and hit fresh white line tissue?
Dr. Follows brought me over a 3mm curette. What a slick little gadget! On that bottom corner in the picture, I sliced at the white area. It was soft and chalky for a bit, then it was more like slivers were coming off, so I quit. I did not get any chalky stuff from up under the hoof capsule towards the coronary band. He is not hardly lame today at all. So that is a good thing.
I have not heard back from Clean trax yet, and am still using just the betadine solution. I am worried, that doing this on my own, I will expose fresh tissue. Will the formeldahyde product be bad to use, if I don't know what I am doing?????
I also got a boinking on the head from a wayward knee. I think he is just a bit tired of all this probing, as am I. It does look a lot better today.
Thanks
Suz
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 9:30 pm:
Aileen, the latest issue of Equus came today. I haven't had a chance to read it, but I noticed it had a long article on feet and foot problems, including the latest info on WLD. If you don't get the mag, I think you can read it on line but am not sure. Looked like an interesting article.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 11:51 pm:
Hi Suz,
I don't know that it would be a horrible thing should you expose some sensitive tissue, as it would mean you have removed all of the fungus/bacteria. Sensitive tissue is recognized by the fact that it bleeds - yes, Dr. O? However, if you have exposed sensitive tissue, it is my understanding that it is then that you should not use a formaldehyde product or undiluted Betadine. If you remove only thin layers at a time, I don't think you will cause any serious blood loss upon exposing sensitive tissue. Levi may even feel it and react before it bleeds - Dr. O will have to answer if you should continue deeper at this point if you are still removing unhealthy material. If you can remove the soft, chalky crud you've described and find healthy tissue without exposing sensitive tissue, then I believe you are safe to use a formaldehyde product. It sounds like you have moved into healthy hoof by your description of the change of the hoof texture. I think keep moving along all the re-sected edges (if you haven't already done so), until you have the all the soft, chalky stuff gone. Use the formaldehyde product if you don't draw blood and watch the re-sected edges like a hawk (test by scraping) to make sure you have no new unhealthy growth - if you do, remove it again promptly. Does Levi have shoes on all his feet? I just wondered if it would help you to remove a bit of material from a healthy foot, just to see if it matches the 'slivers' you described. Dr. O, is that a dumb idea? Suz, I can understand your uncertainty and fear of causing Levi more pain, but I don't think at this point you can possibly make things any worse. Hang in there - you are on the right track with removing the soft, chalky stuff.
Lee C
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 8:43 am:
Hello Susan,
Recognition of sensitive tissue, recognition of infected tissue, treatment when sensitive tissue is exposed, treatment when there is not exposure of sensitive is all covered in the article guys. Rather than go over again here, reread and reread the article until understanding occurs, if you get stuck on any one point try to specifically address it.
Despite the fact it is in the article I do feel the need to emphasize again Susan, if you cannot directly visualize the areas that are infected it is very hard to remove all the infection. And despite folks continued discussions about products it is the complete removal of infected tissue that is important and any good antifungal used appropriately is likely to prevent reinfection however I don't know of any safer yet effective antifungal than betadine nor more powerful or longer lasting antifungal than formaldehyde.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 9:33 am:
Sara, that article was written by EQUUS several months before publication while our article would have been updated today if there was new information. That makes our article the latest information and EQUUS several months behind. However very little has changed in the treatment of WLD in the last 6 years and effective treatment regimens have been around for 25 years. That said, while I did find a small blurb on WLD in the April issue I did not see any pertinent information on diagnosis and treatment in the article, did I miss this?
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 3:00 pm:
Thanks everyone. I can only wait till April 17th to get Levi back up to the vet and Farrier in South Dakota. I talked to a micro biologist who said that although the fungus, if present is still going to eat away, that it is slow moving. In fact Levi probably has had this going on for a very long time, just undetected. As usual, I am in panic mode, but because of my business, I can not get up there any sooner.
Presently, I am continuing to use the curette, to scrape away where I can get to. I have not had any more white chalky stuff coming away from the edges, or up under where I can not see, but I can hear a definate hollow sound from the center of his hoof, so he is probably being eaten away there too.
I had checked on the Clean trax, and although, the reasoning behind the penetrating the resection area, etc. sounds great. It can not be effective with a shoe on, so can't really do that one.
Another product I am researching is the xout plus. The only ingredients I could find are listed on the Haz Mat MSO page
Didecyl dimethly amonium choloride
(C14 -50%, C12 40%, C13 10%)
Dr. O, any opinions on using this as opposed to the betadine solution to be more aggressive until I can get him back up for further exposing by cutting away more hoof. I know that is what will need to be done, but I need to do whatever I can in the meantime. HOwever, this is an expensive endeavor as it is, and don't want to waste money on any "snake oil" products. Nor do I want to use a product that will do damage.
It sounds like a clorox type product, yes?
Levi is so wonderfully sound right now. I dread taking him back to remove more foot. We walked around yesterday. He trotted both direction, without even flipping his foot out. Just for a few seconds, to test him out. He is still on a confined area, so he does not zoom around.
Thanks all
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 6:18 am:
I am unfamiliar with the product Susan.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2007 - 10:03 pm:
Dr. O, and everyone. Thanks for all of your positive thoughts and prayers. Levi had his vet and farrier visit today. I have been dreading taking him up there, because he has been so sound and happy. I have been working with the curette, and the betadine, keeping his foot clean and dry.
Well, to put it in the vets terms, "I am tickled pink" at his progress. He was amazed at how much foot he had grown. The x-ray showed solid new non diseased hoof growth. He had a teensy bit of white stuff just around the nail, but they dug around and could find only good cornified hoof all around.
Although he was not familiar with the clean trax, He did not feel it could hurt. So we removed his shoe, trimmed his foot and soaked his foot according to the directions. To me it smelled like a strong solution of clorox.
Before I left for the day, I stripped all 3 stalls that Levi hangs out in, sprayed my kennel disinfectant, and some odorban sanitizer to dry all day. Put fresh bagged bedding in tonight, and a chunk of wood, on the floor where he stands to eat and hang out, until I can buy another mat.
The rotation was already much improved. I did not get pictures this time, but I could see a huge difference. They had to remove a bit more heel, and needed to glue the shoe on this time. He is trotting around like a champ!
I am soooooooo happy. I will keep up the same routine for now, and give him limited exercise in the yard, but they saw no reason to not let him out to hang out with his buddies, as long as he did not run like a banshee and pull that shoe off. I will keep him in this overshoot boots when he is out, and let him out only with his quiet buddies.
It is sooooo wonderful to have good news for a change.
thanks to all who have kept us in your thoughts.
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 6:51 am:
Susan wonderful news! Fingers crossed levi continues to improve
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 7:46 am:
Delighted things are looking up. How about good pictures of that foot Susan?
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 9:37 am:
Fantastic, Susan. You really deserve it!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 11:50 am:
Susan, very wonderful news! Here's to a bright and beautiful spring for you and Levi! Cindy
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 12:58 pm:
Finally some good news for you and Levi, Susan. So glad to hear of it!
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I'm so relieved for you that Levi's on the mend! I will post updated pics of Hanah's foot in the next couple of days on my thread - they should keep you optimistic!
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 11:07 pm:
Thanks all for your kind words. I tried to take pictures tonight, but it was too dark in the barn, will work on it tomorrow.
I think I will keep up with what I have been doing for a while yet, although I do plan on giving him more time out in the big yard. The farrier warned me to be careful that he does not over reach and pull that shoe off, or he will pull off his whole hoof wall, it is glued on so well. So he will be duct taped, and booted anytime he is out and about.
Thanks
Looking forward to pics on Hanah, Lee
Maybe we will be riding by late summer, who knows.
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Member:
sonoita
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 5:20 pm:
Good Job Susan. And Good Luck.
Happy Trails
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 6:17 pm:
I am going to try to upload recent pictures, Any comments appreciated.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 6:38 pm:
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 7:07 pm:
What I see Susan is a whole lot of dedication and courage.Levi most love his mom a LOT ,that has involved time and such hard work! Looks like it is coming along great!! Altho I still wince when I see it, brave horse. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 9:00 pm:
Super Susan, but remove that undermined wall, just to be sure and it assuredly is not holding anything.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 10:00 pm:
Thanks for the support. It has been an uphill climb. I let Levi out in the big yard today with all the boys together. They just moseyed around for a while, then the wind kicked up, and off they all went like banshees! I was glad I had taped his foot and had his over reach boots on. I was also glad they are all whistled trained, as I got them to zoom into the barn right away. I am so paranoid about him running around. But he really needs exercise to take off the weight.
I do not know why they will not remove that excess horn. I asked them too, and this farrier was so busy, and such a nasty personality, that he did not even make time to trim and reset his right (good) foot. He said to have my other farrier do it. Of course he charged a pretty penny for his time. I am unfortunately at thier mercy, as I have very little choice on where to go for help.
I am going to see if Rick can chop away at it this weekend, when he does his other foot.
Cindy, it is so funny how your perspective changes. I remember when they first removed his foot, I was almost loosing my cookies. Now I look at it and say "Wow, that looks great".
He really is not in pain anymore, and the rotation is correcting, so we are on the road to recovery at least. I hope we can keep growing good foot.
suz
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 9:17 am:
Good luck! That was one long haul. Good wishes for continued healing,
Lilo
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 11:46 am:
I know when we have the injuries here with man or critter I do just fine then later I just shake after all is done. So pictures make me wince. Don't you just love farriers(or anyone) who has such a high opinon of themselves, NOT. Glad Levi got to let off steam he has been a very good patient. Cindy
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 12:01 pm:
Good news Susan! I'm so glad he's no longer in pain!! Continued healing thoughts for you and Levi
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 11:07 am:
Well, now just one more set back. Levi had a good report last Tuesday, but today, I went out to treat his foot, and the shoe was missing. He has not been out to run around, as it has been muddy. When I did let him out his foot was wrapped, and he was not allow to run around, just his small space.
That outside skinny little area, was white and chalky underneath. I dug around at it and now it is just a wobbly chunk, ready to fall off.
I have to send my hubby up for the 2 hour drive back to the farrier as I have 2 dog training classes scheduled for today.
I hope they can come up with a way to keep this shoe on. If he did not have the rotation issue, we could leave the shoe off, but I sure don't want to go that route.
This is a never ending battle.
Get those positive thoughts and prayers heading our way again. They seem to work, if not for a while. If it would just dry up around here.
suz & Levi
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 3:52 pm:
What about boots Susan? They have pads for boots if he needs a wedge! I'm going to experiment with Brave that way and see what he likes best Sending bunches of positive healing thoughts!
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 4:08 pm:
Hey Suz,
Sorry to hear you have yet another setback. Holy cow, it's just not fair!
I'm sure if I read your whole thread again, the answer would be in it, but why does he have to be shod? Hanah had rotation, but the vet wanted to avoid shoes if at all possible and we managed to. Dr O, maybe you can help explain why in Levi's case it's necessary to shoe him...???
Hang in there, Suz
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 5:57 pm:
I guess they are trying to correct the rotation, so he had cut off his heel, and put on a wedge shoe. In the one month since he put on the wedge shoe, he had improvement on the angle. He has a "club foot" according to "this" vet. Who knows. He is walking and trotting with barely a hitch. When he is without the shoe, his digital flexor tendon is stretched, I think. I don't remember. It is a blur anymore
Tom called and they are on their way home. They re=glued the shoe, and put a strap across his foot to keep the shoe on. Have not seen it yet. Will post pictures when I can. He also re-set the right shoe from the one my other farrier put on, on Monday.
I did not think it looked right, and the frog was still so deep. They said,he is still walking and trotting sound. Will see when he gets home.
Thanks suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 7:48 pm:
Susan, damn I so hope it was almost done and Levi and you could RELAX! Ellie had 5 degree rotation and we never put shoes on her. I have 4 horses and 3 have club feet to some degree but I'll be darned if I can see it. If shoes are working then good they got back on. Am trying to chase down a supplement that was on RFD it started out apo??? but is new and very promising for fixing hoof troubles. You sound so weary.... toast a big glass to Libby and sleep ... it will get better for Levi too! Cindy
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 12:44 am:
Susan, I've gotten behind with you and Levi this last week or so. I hope the strap and reglue work. Talk about a long haul with a horse's problem, you have been through the mill on this one. Looking back at your first pictures, there has been a lot of progress made. Hang in there; I think you two will win this one. Now that Libby is home, she can send her good thoughts along to Levi along with mine!
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 10:58 am:
Ah, okay, was just curious. However, this is getting more and more interesting, Suz. Hanah was born with contracted front tendons and was on meds (can’t remember the name of the stuff) for the first 3 days of her life to correct it. Anyway, when I bought her, she had shoes on, but they were way over due for resetting. I was going to keep her at her old home for a while, so I agreed to have their farrier do her feet the next time he was up. Was I surprised when I saw her feet the day after he’d done them! High heel, short toe, narrow foot – they looked clubby and tiny. I was a bit disappointed, as I would have second guessed buying her if I’d seen her feet like that when I first saw her. When I got her home, my farrier (not the one I’m using now) continued shoeing her the same way. I figured that’s just how she had to be done to keep her balanced. The farrier that has been working on her since the WLD still comments on how incorrectly she was trimmed/shod when he first met her. Now her feet are more round, less heel, pasterns a better angle and they no longer look clubby. This change has been made over the past 8 months. The place she came from breeds and shows western pleasure horses and I’ve heard that it is possible she was shod the previous way to encourage the slow legged movement and shorter stride that they like. Anyway, here I am babbling - what I wondering is, if the angle of our horses feet could have anything to do with them being more of a candidate for WLD. Dr O, is there any possibility of this? Also, is it possible that Levi could (after the rotation is no longer an issue) be trimmed/ shod in a way that might correct his so called clubbiness? Suz, do you have any photos of Levi’s foot before the resection? I’m going to see if I can find any of Hanah’s. I’ll try to do a before and after the corrective trimming, so you can see what I mean.
Lee C
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 11:23 am:
Great question, Lee! I'll be interested to read Dr.O's answer.
About club feet: I've been told and have read that Arabs are prone to club feet. Yet, with all the foals we've had, and all the foals I've seen at various breeders, I've only seen one or two foals that had a true club foot. I've seen foals whose feet were a little "upright" but with proper and very frequent trimming, these feet looked great when the foals got a little older. I have also seen horses who used to have great feet, and have developed clubby looking feet as they got older. It's my personal opinion that many cases of club feet are developed over time due to improper trimming and shoeing.
Right now I struggle with an opposite problem, all the farriers in my area want to leave too little heel, not too much.
I'm interested in seeing your pictures, and Susan's also.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 8:34 pm:
Here is what they did yesterday. He put a band of fiberglass fabric across the top and front of his foot, and glued the bajesus out of it. I can still take my curette and dig out any gunk that gets under there. He does not want it getting moist at all. He said that is why it fell off.
Can I still squirt the betadine in there, or should I discontinue if they say it is good cornified foot?
Hey Lee, I will look for some pics of Levis post everything foot, and try to post them. There are pictures on the Founder/Laminitis post, under bute or banamine from a while ago.
He has on those "tracme" shoes with the built in roll over. He seems comfortable in them. He moves with a slight rock outside on the front left at a trot. But then there is not much in the way of foot there.
Keep our fingers crossed
suz
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 9:33 pm:
Drat, I don't have any pictures of Hanah's feet 'pre-disater'. In the pictures I do have she's in some kind of footing or grass. I especially wanted to find one from the side, so you could see how upright her pasterns were, how short the toe, and how high the heel. I will try and take some photos from the side in the next couple of days just so you can at least see how they certainly don't look like that now.
Lee C
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 7:50 am:
Lee I would say to the degree that a particular conformation might cause increased concussion on the wall WLD might be more common. Concerning correcting club feet see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Club Foot.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 9:54 am:
Hang in there Susan, I've been thinking about my suggestion for just boots, and I'm wondering if that would breed infection because no/little air would get to the hoof... I'm glad his shoe is strapped on!!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 6:15 pm:
Dr. O, I have been religious about keeping that foot dry, the shoe has stayed on. After he came back from having the shoe re-glued, and the South Dakota farrier, re-set his right foot, I was picking his right foot. It seems that he has a strip about 3/4 inch long, just inside the shoe line, that is soft and cheesy like. I am concerned that it has jumped feet! It is wet, humid and the barn is just oozing moisture. He has mats and wood bedding. We get our bedding from a morton building operation. They fill the wagon with shavings from their jobs. Is there any reason the fungus would come from there?
I have been using the curette to keep paring away at the strip by his shoe. The old farrier will be here this weekend. Should I have him remove his shoe, and check out if it is spreading around? I hate to compromise that hoof anymore by re-nailing for the 3rd time in 2 weeks? But he is not scheduled to go back to South Dakota till May 30th.
So the questions are:
1. Does this sound like the white line has gone to the other foot?
2. Would it come from the Shavings or just the moist condition?
3. Do I keep digging around the area, and dumping betadine in the new spot, it feels like hard tissue after I pare it out? Or remove the shoe?
Thanks, sorry to be such a pain, but again, we have a gazzillion opinions here.
suz & levi
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 6:35 am:
Hello Susan,
1) Just inside the shoe line, sounds like the wrong location for white line disease. But I have seen more bilateral cases than just on a single foot, so a diligent examination of the other feet is always in order.
2) No, fresh shavings are an unlikely source of infection. These fungi are common soil contaminants.
3) Since we are uncertain what you are looking at it is difficult to give specific advice. If you are seeing a sole that is soft from excessive moisture, removal could be the wrong thing to do and you need to dry up the environment. If the barn is as moisture laden as you seem to indicate, I can almost guarantee the bedding is wet.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 12:12 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, I have one other question. My client, who is the orthopedic surgeon, presented me with a good question. He was wondering if there is not an internal medicine that could be administered to fight this. He referenced Lamisil, the pills that people take for toenail fungus? Is this something that has ever been explored in equines?
thanks
suz
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:11 am:
Hi Suz,
Just wanted to let you know my thoughts are still with you and Levi. I was going to get you pics of Hanah's non-clubby feet, but there just hasn't been enough hours in a day lately! Will try to remember to do it this week. Curious to hear what Dr O has to say about the internal medicine...
Lee C
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:56 am:
The biggest problem is that only the horn is infected. Since there is no circulation here the medication does not reach the fungus. If the medication becomes incorporated into the horn as it is formed this might be effective with very long term therapy. However most antifungals are fairly toxic and the cost prohibitive.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 1:05 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, I think it would take quite a few lamisil tablets to get to 1000 lbs, and I know the treatment for the human foot fungus thing is several months. It would be nice if the new hoof had something in it that would retard the fungus somehow.
For now, I have pared out a fairly deep slice under Levi's other hoof, and under the shoe. I was dumping betadine in there, but in a few hours it was packed with bedding and who knows what. I decided to pack it with 2 cotton square makeup
applicator things, soaked with betadine. When I picked his foot, and pulled out the cotton from last night it was clean and no goobers in it this am. Will keep working on that for now.
He is sound, not in any pain, just tired of being cooped up. Wet weather here is getting pretty tiring for the humans as well.
Thanks
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 2:08 pm:
Dr. O farrier came Thursday and was pleased to find Whiskey's WLD gone,again, however his white line is on the wide side soooooo very watchful for now. My farrier also talked at length about WLD and diet being the key to white line expansion. So since my horses are diffenetly not starving we will reduce feed and put up with grumpy horses til we can at least push hard and find a rib or two Thank you for putting up with my midnight ponderings. Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 10:43 pm:
Hi Cindy, I just realized that my dyslexic writing of WDL as opposed to WLD, silly me. Did not even notice
We are totally out of grass hay, and none to be found. I have stemmy alfalfa left. I have worried about letting them out for too long on the grass. I wonder when it will be safe to let them out all day. The grass is already seeding out. Think it is safe?
They are out for about 2 hours a day now, with no problems.
Will be getting a re-check on May 30th, hope things are going well.
Thanks
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 1:38 am:
Susan, I've been told cloudy days are good??Exercise very good. My grass hay is half mouldy soooo. Watched my 2 mares go down on their knees and I mean DOWN bellys touching ground so they could reach that little blade of green grass on the other side. Have you read Pete Ramey's site?? My farrier said almost exactly what Pete said about diet exercise and footing. Where is our magic wands when we need'em? Cindy ps think I was dyslexic also.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:06 am:
Levi has been doing great, I have gradually been building their time out on this one lawn. I mowed it down to keep it short, so Levi could not get a lot of grass. That is the only thing different. Yesterday, he ran around and played in the big yard. Trotting around happy as a clam. Today he is lame on his bad foot. I tried to pick up his right foot, and he was very reluctant to put weight on his left.
Should I run him up to S.D. and get an x-ray, could he just be sore from running around? His foot and even his leg is a little warm? I was feeling so good for a while anyhow?
suz
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 12:17 pm:
Hi Susan, maybe it's just compensation? Did cold hosing help?
When Brave did that over the last two years, I would cold hose him and bute him to head off any inflammation right after I witnessed his rodeos and kept him in for a day. I had a full set of xrays to look back on because we couldn't figure him out tho... Sorry, no help here... Good luck!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 12:23 pm:
Susan, Whiskey is taking small steps today(trim) so I use Thermaflex(sp) on his legs and B L Solution as asprin for a day or two and then he usually comes out of it. My husband swears he will black out the windows so I can't watch and worry! Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 5:17 pm:
I am hoping that it was just his silly zooming around. He has been pretty sedate, hand walked and trotted. He was out in the big yard when I was riding Clyde, and he does not like mom giving anyone else attention. Tom said his feet don't feel that much different in warmth. so it could be my over-sensitivity. He is on 1gm bute and looking more normal now. Still a little hesitant, have kept him in all day. I can pick up all 4 feet and he is fine. Used the hoof tester, as best as I can, and did not notice anything really problematic.
I would love to cold hose him, but because of the glued on shoe, I can not even let him get near a puddle! That was his first full blown zooming around in about 3 months though, and that foot is far from grown out completely.
I just always worry about laminitis and rotation stuff, because of his bizarre history. Just yesterday, he was doing so well, I thought about putting a saddle on him and just walking in the soft grass yard. Maybe he heard me tell someone that, you think? He is eating, happy and confined again! Such is life. I will try not to worry - Yeh Right!
Thanks all.
I know what you mean Cindy, I am such a blabber mouth usually, and when I get quiet, my husband knows somethings wrong with Levi! (Although secretly, I think he enjoys the peace)
Keep our fingers crossed for a better boy tomorrow.
Does anyone think it is the grass that could be causing a problem at this stage of the game? I started him out from hand walking on grass to 15 minutes to 1/2 hour to 1 hour and maybe they were out 2 hours in the am the day before. This has been over a months time.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 6:46 am:
Hello Susan, without an exam we cannot really say where he is lame and just guessing at the possibilities is no way to deal with such a problem. I would recommend you follow the suggestions in the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
I do need to comment on the recommendation of aspirin above, we do not routinely recommend its use in horses do to the very short half life it's efficacy is limited. We do publish a dose for emergencies but phenylbutazone is more likely to be effective when a NSAID is logical.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:36 am:
Dr. O if you are refering to asprin mentioned in my post above I said it only as reference point to the B L solution that I use for pain as I have a horse who can NOT tolerate most painkillers ie bute etc.!! I try had to make things clear. Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:21 pm:
Dr. O, Levi has been kept in his stalled area since Sunday. The first 2 days he was reluctant to put weight on his bad foot, when I tried to pick up his right foot. I had him on 1 gm bute 2 x day. He is still lame in the morning, so I gave him 1 gm. bute Tues Am and 1 gm this morn. He walks around with about 1-2 on a lameness scale all day with the bute, without about a 3-4. He has no big pulse, and his feet are weird in the warmth dept. His right was cold this am, left just a bit warm, but by the afternoon, they both felt equal in warmth. Not really remarkably warm at all. In fact my friend compared his to my other horses and said they all felt the same in the warmth dept.
The vet in S.D. said to keep him on bute for 5 days, and if he did not improve alot, to bring him up to S.D. to check it out.
He wondered about an abscess, but would he improve with bute and rest if it were an abscess, could the sidebones, indicated in his x-ray cause pain from running around. The hoof tester was put all over his sole with no major reaction at all.
The vet in S.D. said to let him out to hang out with his friends, I worry about that until I am sure he is not doing rotation again. He is much improved each day, still lame though, so would that indicate more of a soreness from doing too much that Saturday that he ran around, as opposed to laminitis?
I have read and re-read the articles, but still confused.
Thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 8:26 am:
The problem is you are trying to diagnose too much from history Susan. You can make general statements of characteristics but there are always exceptions. History can direct an exam but the diagnosis depends on finding clear abnormalities from an exam. Certainly your history suggests the horse ran around on a compromised hoof and became bruised but this is just a guess.
You should treat this as a basically undiagnosed lameness and follow the guidelines in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse. It gives specific guidelines to follow.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 10:26 am:
This morning when I picked Levi's feet, his left (bad) foot was still warm, reluctant to shift his weight to it for picking opposite foot. My hand got wet when I picked it up and I noticed some bloody wetness? Could this be an abcess popping out cornorary band this high? Can you see the spot in the picture? Above the heel, just above the hair line?
thanks
suz
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:04 am:
Gosh, Suz, you and Diane should get some kind of reward for having "longest term problems" or something like that! Better yet, someone should send the two of you off to a spa for the day so you could get a break. You have been at this a long time with Levi, and Diane has with Hank.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:58 am:
Thanks Sara, I know what you mean. I really have tried very hard to be a good horse mom. I was just telling my husband this am, as we were discussing the horse race tomorrow. They start these horses so young, I made sure Levi was old enough before starting hard work with him, used splint boots, farrier service every 6 weeks growing up, wormed on schedule, blah blah blah. I get so annoyed with my friends who have 13 horses on 3 acres who never seem to have any problems, or maybe they just don't notice.
Whatcha gonna do. Gotta keep at it?
How is Libby Lou????
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 3:52 pm:
I know, Susan. I walk the fences; pick up manure daily; do everything I can to make the place safe and clean. Horses down the road (where the fence is falling down and has a top strand of barb wire)are just fine. One of my mares came in with a puncture wound on her hock last week, and is on antibiotics, daily hosing, wrapping, hand walking, etc. I get so bummed!!
Miss Libs, aka "Libby Lips" is fine. She is a little hard to keep walking at times, but is easily distracted with grass, so that helps. I have to keep her on a short lead or it would be "off to the races!" Her leg looks really good, and she is moving without a hitch.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 4:16 pm:
An abscess (called a "gravel" when it pops out at the coronet) would usually smell bad and attract flies and other possibilities would be recent trauma. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
As usual nothing is normal for Levi! He has not had any bute today, and has been walking around in his small area 95% improved since that spot popped. It is not smelly, but when my friend and I tried the hoof tester last night on his heel in that spot, he flinched last night. Today a pushed on the spot to see if gunk would come out and he just about knocked me out.
Tonight it looks like a pimple is pushing out of the hair. I am posting it to see what you think. Could something be working its way out yet?
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 6:19 pm:
This might be a silly question, but I have been thinking that the bulbs of his heels look weird lately. Could it be that his foot is trying to grow, and this guy used mesh fiberglass on his whole foot to form a strap to keep his shoe on, see pics above, Could that be kind of contracting and putting pressure on his heels?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:30 pm:
Susan, Levi and Hank need a 24 hr. nurse service I think! I hope you figure it out.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:32 pm:
I see what you mean about the bulbs looking "weird," at least in these pictures. They look too big for his hoof. But, of course, he doesn't have a normal hoof wall. It's been almost 3 wks. since his "glue job" was done. When was the farrier coming back out?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:32 am:
The thing I notice first is a bleb of granulation tissue sticking out of the hair: what is going on there?
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:12 pm:
Levi has returned to his normal walking around. He is not 100%, but he has not been for some time. I e-mailed the vet in S.D. the same picture and he seems to think it is an abscess popping out at the heel. It never really had much drainage, and has now scabbed over. He is still sensitive if I push on it. But still no pain when I use the hoof tester on his sole.
I have opted to hold off until his normal appointment on May 30th so that the farrier will have time to trim all of his feet, and have scheduled x-rays as well. This will hopefully get more foot growth as well. The way this guy glued the shoe on, he has blobs of glue left on the bottom of his feet which seem to make his walk funny. He even left glue in his frog, which could have trapped something, causing an abscess I would think.
I wonder though if this could be a bruise from overreaching when he was running about?
All I know is he is walking 98% improved from last week, so I am a happy camper.
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 8:12 am:
It does not look like a bruise Susan but it is a a wound. Whether primary trauma or a popped out abscess requires examination.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 5:35 pm:
It almost looks like a u-shaped scar is already forming there, no more gunk coming out. He is walking his normal rocker like gate in those shoes.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:14 pm:
Levi went to vet/farrier visit yesterday. Great News!!! No evidence of white line disease anywhere. Super solid cornified hoof. He grew like 3-4 cm past the coffin bone since his last x-ray in April.
He has a palmer angle of 8 that is unchanged, but his tip of his coffin bone is in a good place.
You can feel solid foot there. Still needs glueing on, so will continue to limit his turnout, but no rotation from grazing. I was concerned with that.
Dr. O, since he was out for up to 1 1/2 to 2 hours on grass before the abscessy thing, would you think that he can be out for long periods of time on grass now, that we are beyond a grass founder worry? Grass is high and seeding out. I am getting super low on hay, and would like to increase all of their turn out time.
Here are his latest pictures
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:28 pm:
That is GREAT news!!! I'm very happy for you
Could I bother you with a question? Do you know what the palmar angle is supposed to be? Thank you
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 3:04 pm:
Susan, what outstanding news.I still pick up Whiskey's feet 100 times a day but so far so good! He is out on grass and as long as his weight stays or in his case reduces we are OK but my pasture is barely there. Susan your perseverance is something, WAY TO GO ! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 5:22 pm:
That's wonderful Susan. I hope thing continue to go well!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:10 pm:
If everyone feels the foot stable enough, particularly with respect to the sole, I see no reason why not.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:47 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, and everyone. He has an abundance of sole. I forgot my camera, so did not get pics of the x-ray, will do so when we return in 6 weeks YEAH!
The vet said a normal palmer angle is 3-5. His right foot is about a 4, I will have to look in Dr. O's articles and see if there is a reference for it. She put a protractor on the tip of his coffin bone (I think) and then measured to the back where the flat part of the coffin bone is at his heel.
I am going to be a pro fessional before this is all over
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 7:45 am:
Congratulations!He will be happy with his turnout won't he?
Often wish I had trained as a professional and AFTER that owned horses!
Jos
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 9:40 am:
We discuss palmar solar angle, the angle the bottom of the coffin bone makes with the ground, in both the articles on Low Heels and Correcting Rotation of Foundered Horses. There is quite a bit of variation of normal but 3 is a bit low for me with 5 to 7 about an average I would say. But it is best interpreted in light of the rest of the foot.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 11:38 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, that is good news, then an 8 is not too far off.
I have been picking his feet, and just doing a douse of betadine on the sole, since it is so humid and stormy here again. I figure since his feet have been newly scraped, this might prevent any fungus from heading to his feet. Just for a few days I figure, just as a precaution. Once a week I am still dumping betadine in the front resection area, even though they are solid.
Hope that won't hurt.
suz
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 12:50 pm:
Susan I hope your boy is still doing well! Thanks for the info on the palmar angle, Brave was at 0 in December 06... will look in the articles to see if I can determine his angle now, but I'm guessing I'll have to wait for the xrays in July?
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 3:05 pm:
Thanks for the encouragement. I put Levi's boot on his glue foot, since the ground is damp, but wanted to let him out to have some grass for a bit. Well, You would have thought I opened the gate at the racetrack. He zoomed off full speed, bucked and tooted all the way! Shear Glee. It is a small 63' x about 200' area, so he could not get moving too fast, but he sure was happy for some time out of jail.
I hope I can get to a day when I don't have a panic attack when he does normal horsey stuff.
suz
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 6:06 pm:
Susan thats great news, Must make you feel good to see him so happy. Wishing continued good news.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 10:10 pm:
I always laugh out loud when they toot! Good to hear Susan
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 12:22 am:
Gosh Suz,
You've really had a time of it.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 10:02 am:
Hey Ilona, we've missed you! Levi seems to be doing great. Had a major fly attack yesterday, pre storms, so they all raced around. Have not let him out to see how he is doing today, yet. Can't wait till he is just a horse again.
suz
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 10:45 pm:
Thanx Suz,
I've missed y'all too. Its been so crazy busy and I've been on the road WAY too much, plus there were some HA registration snaffoo's which Dr O graciously remedied.
BTW Suz, has Levi ever been 'just a horse'?
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Monday, Jun 11, 2007 - 11:01 pm:
Hey Suz,
It's been awhile, but I have been following your thread. You'll see by the latest post on my thread that Hanah is well, 'cured' I guess. Of course there's a possibility that she might not remain sound when she goes back to work, but by the way she rip snorts around on even the hardest ground, I don't think we're going to have a problem! Levi has had some ups and downs over the past month, but it sounds like he too is on the right track now! Are you thinking about December he should have a whole new hoof? If you hear an odd noise once in awhile, it's just Hanah and I rootin' for you and Levi somewhere in the background!
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 11, 2007 - 11:18 pm:
Hey Lee, nice to hear from you too! Ilona, I don't think my Levitobeaver has ever been a horse. We are so busy at the kennels though, that I have barely had time to work with him, so he is just being a horse, grazing on his newly opened pasture, and stomping flys! The nasty part of summer!
Lee, I asked the vet when I could maybe ride Levi, even in the yard. She said to give it another trim time before we do even light work. The farrier said he thought I could ride him. I will listen to the vet though, as I am in no hurry to take any risks. I don't even have time to ride the healthy one, so why push it. I am shooting for fall for a possible ride time. Hopefully a full new foot by December or even next February I guess. We are chowing down the supplements. Hopefully him just being out walking and cruising in his pasture with the boys, will stimulate hoof growth as well.
Positive thoughts are always welcome around here.
suz & Levi
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 7:48 am:
Glad Levi is doing well susan, keep up the good work!
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 10:52 am:
Hey Suz,
During the thaw (month of March) when the girls were confined to their paddocks due to the pasture being too soft and slippery for turn out, I used Koppertox on Hanah's resected area. I voiced my concern about her being in the mud to the farrier and he suggested I use it. The vet was less concerned, but said it wouldn't hurt. Whether or not it helped, it made me feel like I was helping... Yep, my other horse Sienna has a thread. Like Levi, she has not really had an opportunity to be a horse pretty much since she was born. Her most recent 'illness' is under 'Diseases/Respiratory System/Nasal Discharge, Cough, Fever/2yr old w/mild snots, fever, cough'. Her and Hanah are half sisters (same sire).
I would probably wait too, but that's great news that he's come to the point where they're even talking about riding! Awesome, awesome - you did an excellent job, Suz!
Lee C
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 10:31 pm:
Update on Levi. Went to the Farrier today in South Dakota. They are very impressed with how much hoof he has grown since February (5 months). Anyhow, he did not need to glue his shoe on this time, although, I wish he would have knowing how Levi gets out of shoes. I am going to post a picture. He got 3 nails solid on one side, and 1 solid, 2 through the air space on the outside. He recommended over-reach boots, and fly boots, so he does not slam his foot and loosen up the nails.
Although, at a walk he is pretty sound looking, the vet and the farrier said he still has a grade 1, very slight lameness on the bad foot. They said I could ride him on soft grassy ground, at a walk, just to work his brain and get his feet moving to grow foot.
Here's my questions Dr. O
1. Would those side bones, in above x-ray, still cause an almost permanent "offness" to his gate?
2. Do you agree that riding at a walk, basically in my grass yard, just to practice a little, is OK? Maybe a bit on level grassy ground, or soft arena at a walk ride????
He runs free in the pasture, trots off, plays and runs with no ill effect.
Thanks - anxious to do a little yard work with him, but don't want to jeopardize how far we have come.
I need to spruce up his foot, glue residue, and very dry feet around here.
Any comments, I am so pleased to not be in worryville. He was so well behaved today too, that was a joy.
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 10:38 pm:
before 2/22/07
after 7/11/07
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Hello Susan,
You have had good hoof growth. Taking your questions in order:
1) The significance of sidebone is explained at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Sidebone and the Collateral Cartilages. I think it will answer your question.
2) I don't see anything in the photos that would prohibit walking on soft ground.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 7:54 am:
Good news Susan! I hope you and Levi are riding off into the sunset soon. That horsetech hoof supplement, really seems to help grow hoof. I have Hank on it again and somedays I think his hooves are growing too fast! I know it isn't from a good diet.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 11:02 am:
Awesome, Suz! Bet there were times you thought you might not get to where you are today with that foot! Great job. What a feeling to finally have your horse's name and the word 'ride' in the same sentence again, huh?!
Lee C
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 11:36 am:
NOW THAT is a BEFORE and AFTER shot to be proud of! Worried about Whiskey and riding til I saw him racing around doing airs above ground etc and had no troubles later! So Happy for you and Levi!! Cindy
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 12:44 pm:
I'm so happy for you, Susan. It's been a very long haul for you...I hope that you can now enjoy Levi without the worry.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 7:18 pm:
Oh boy, Susan! We'll have to get Levi and Libby together for a party!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 9:40 pm:
Thank You Thank You Thank You Everyone. Let's keep our fingers and hooves crossed that this is a lasting fix for this boy. I just must stay on top of it.
Now, if only I had time to squeeze a short workout for horses. It is soooo busy at the kennel. Everyone is vacationing, and the pets are all here vacationing at our resort.
Thanks for the support through this all.
Suz & Levi too
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2007 - 10:30 am:
Congratulations! May the healing continue! Lilo
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 9:06 pm:
Hi All, Levi had his 5 week trim, since July. Bummer, Bad News! It was back. He threw off his right foot shoe about 10 days ago, and there was a chunk of white line chalky stuff there, and also on the outside of bad (left) foot. So the farrier chopped it away, to air it out. Put his shoes on and here we go again.
He said it went up just to where the new growth has grown down, and felt that the laminitis old hoof laminae was maybe just more easily compromised, and hopes that we will be ok. He felt that I could still ride him since he has good solid hoof, for the majority of his foot. I will post pics tomorrow.
Why would this come back, is my karma bad or what??? I have been so busy here with the kennels, that I have barely been able to pick his feet like I normally do, let alone dump the betadine in there.
I guess I have no choice but to keep at it aggressively again. He had grown out so much, that the farrier was sure we were going to have a normal looking foot after today.
Heavy Sigh . . . my sister in law, non-horse person said, "why don't you just put him out of his misery" He is not lame, I think I need to be put out of my misery. Off to the Wine (whine) cellar for a glass!
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 10:43 pm:
Hi Susan, I hope Levi gets better. Funny when we think we have their problems licked something else pops up. Sounds like the farrier was optimistic, but I know what you mean by starting the medicating again, it is so nice not to have to deal with that everyday when you have a busy schedule. Have some wine (whine) for me too.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 1:08 am:
Oh, Susan. Not again (still?) I'm so sorry! did Levi sense you had a little spare time, or what?
Wine sounds like a good idea!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 5:33 am:
Wine sounds like a good idea, perhaps a glass for Levi to[they say it is good for our health so why not for him?] but certainly not for your sister in law!
Jos
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 11:24 am:
Susan, well bleep and bleep not again! Whiskey's came back three times under different enviromental conditions each time. I will probably curse us but this is the longest it has been gone. Drink your wine/beer then out you go with the hoof pick and betadine or maybe pour some wine in there ?? Cindy
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Member:
srobert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 9:13 pm:
I did have good luck with Sav a Hoof products when I battled WLD. There is a gel that you can squirt in there that seems to stick better. I actually rotated using a variety of products - formeldahyde really does the trick as well. I learned you just REALLY, really have to keep those feet DRY. That means no dew, no mudpuddles, no nothing. Helped to use the woody pet - or similar product - for bedding as well. Best wishes and hang in there.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 9:58 pm:
Thanks so much for all of your supportive words of wisdom. I feel a little better today. Apparently this may just be another battle I will be fighting with this boy. I think he just misses my one on one attention, so he does this to keep me on my toes. It has been very dry until just recently. We had a few showers, but, after his last trim, he had total hard cornified hoof in there.
Dr. O, does that stuff just grow that aggressively? He had been in for a trim/reset just 5 weeks before, and 10 days before he had lost his right shoe, ripping off the side wall, where the white line disease showed up?
The sav a hoof was recommended by someone else also. I scrubbed a 1:8 bleach solution in tonight, as I am out of betadine. He seemed a little ouchy, so I am thinking we are at sensitive laminia so worry about the formyldahyde products. Ordered more betadine, scraped, scrubbed, stuffed it with soaked betadine cotton, and duct taped it today while he was out cruising. Will take it off for the evening to let it dry out.
Dare I ask Cindy, how long has Whiskey been WLD Free???? I was hoping once we got all new hoof, we might breathe a little easier?
Dr. O, what is your opinion? The vet up there said that it seem like horses that get WLD seem susceptable to it forever?
Will post his latest x-ray and picture tomorrow.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 12:16 am:
I never had problems with recurrence Susan once we got a horse well, though often during the growing out process new small areas would be found and need removal and treatment. I recommend you use the treatment recommended in the article rather than betadine.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 2:51 pm:
Susan, in a very small whisper since spring April I think. Whiskey went thru what Dr. O describes and ?????? so far. I'm now worried because they are now saying maybe a damp winter Think I'll get him hip boots! Am so sorry it just is very depressing to deal with this stuff but don't think either of us will give up just scream and have some more wine/beer ! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 6:34 pm:
Cindy is whiskey shod? If he is I wonder if the equipak cs would help keep it away during the wet mos. I know it is mostly for thrush, but if the WLD is completely gone, would this help keep it at bay?
https://www.vettec.com/65/faq.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 11:29 pm:
I do not recommend areas be covered up but that they stay open so they can be assessed and treated if necessary.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2007 - 5:09 pm:
Diane thought about that but I've kept him barefoot since nature designed him that way.My others are alsp barefoot and think it saved my arab geldings life. His feet kept falling apart even with shoes so nothing to lose we went barefootn ! Am going to bring in more sand and if he has to stay in drylot all winter, tough! Cindy
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2007 - 5:27 pm:
Hi Suz,
I was so disappointed for you and Levi to hear he has regressed. Is there concern with Levi's hoof coming apart if he doesn't have shoes on? Also, is there a chance that the problem with the contracted tendon/rotation has corrected itself enough that it can now be managed with corrective trimming? I think Levi's condition would be much easier to monitor and allow you to catch any 'bad' re-growth sooner if he didn't have to have shoes on. He may be tender at first without the shoes, but he would adjust. I'm sure it would so much healthier for his foot in general, as it would allow it to flex more naturally to help with blood supply etc. From what I've heard, shoes aid in trapping moisture, pee, poop etc. against the white line, which is not good at any time and worse if the horse has WLD. Having shared a similar experience with Hanah and having success with her, but with one of the differences being we kept her barefoot through it, I can't help but wonder if it would help Levi. When I bought Hanah, her previous owner said she would always have to be shod. She has been without shoes now since her procedure nearly a year ago. She has been back to work for a month now, barefoot. She can trot and gallop across gravel completely sound. We don't ask her to do that with weight on her back, she would wear boots if ridden over rough terrain, but the point is for a horse that was upright, clubby and has recovered from WLD with rotation, she has amazing feet; they are no longer upright or clubby and they are tough as nails. Although the vet diagnosed and did the initial work, I think having an exceptional farrier was the key to her successful recovery. If I hadn't seen the transformation myself, I would still be thinking a farrier is a farrier - one's as good as the next as long as the horse likes him/her...
What is your opinion Dr O, based on the information Susan has provided throughout, regarding shoes vs no shoes for Levi?
Keep hangin' in there Suz,
Lee C
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 6:00 am:
Hello Lee,
I really don't see enough information above to make a decision on shoes. In general I do not like putting shoes on horses I am treating for WLD but have had cases that needed solar protection.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 9:44 pm:
For WLD suggest you look for the product Clean Trax. There are loads of sites (do a search) that tell about the product and believe that you only need to soak one time for effectiveness. Equine podiatrist KC LaFierre developed the product, I believe, and it is being used around the world with great success.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 11:27 pm:
Hi Guys, Levi is just a constant problem case. Anyone wanna buy him for $1.50??????? OK, just kidding, I will keep plugging away with this critter.
Dr. O, I have a theory, I am wondering if I could be correct? Levi has been having trouble with this problem for years now, he has constantly had chipping away wall, hollow hoofs, and just until recently have we diagnosed the white line disease. Is it possible that this has been a chronic case that, having gone undiagnosed, has compromised the laminai(sp)this, along with the long toes, bad farrier trimming, etc. precipitated the rotation issues I have had to deal with?
I know I am asking you alot, but the S.Dakots farrier seemed to indicate that the new fungus find, went only as deep as the new hoof growth, it basically was only in the old area that had been affected by the rotation.
I guess what I am hoping is if we can grow out the new hoof completely, and have good fresh solid laminia, to the floor, someday soon, will we be safe from the WLD and possibly future rotation. I know, you can not predict the future for any horse, but I hopeful, that all of his problems may have been caused by undiagnosed WLD, and now that we are being more aggressive, I might have a future without all of this STTTTTRRREEEESSSSSS~
Vicki, I used the Clean Trax in I think May. problem with it is, you can not have shoes on, it does not work. When we used it on Levi, it smelled exactly like bleach. I am using a 1:8 part bleach solution on it now, until the sav a hoof product arrives, along with digging at it, trying to keep it dry in Iowa's version of monsoon season. I just feel bad for him, because he needs to be confined again, while the rain keeps coming down, and the mud keeps building up.
Lee, I would love to have him barefoot, but apparently, they feel he needs to be in shoes. We do not have any reliable barefoot farriers in the area, as far as I know.
I asked the farrier in S.D. to give me an opinion on the latest farriers work on my other horse, he said it was OK, but pointed out that the heel was not balanced, one side was shorter, and that he felt the toes were too long also. This did not give me much confidence, as I was hoping we could get this new guy to take over Levi eventually.
Welp, you just gotta do whatcha gotta do
Will try to post pictures soon. He did not remove as much as before, so I hope we can stay on top of this.
Sorry for rambling.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 7:45 am:
I agree the Clean Trax has little to recommend it from the little bit of information you can get about the ingredients and the product doesn't make sense. But Susan, bleach suffers the same weaknesses that this product most likely does. I recommend you follow the recommendations in the article for treatment. I have not read any information to make me think this horse's foot will not be just fine with proper treatment.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 7:35 am:
Susan I see you said you are going to try the sav-a -hoof product. I tried this once with the mare when she had thrush and it did work well. I used the medi sole. I have been considering getting some for Hank also, but researched the active ingredient (menthadyne-b) and really couldn't find anything on it. It did seem to help water proof the hoof also.
Do you have experience with the product? or are you just giving it a try?
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 2:44 pm:
Hey Diane, The farrier that has been working on Levi recommended it. The vet, whom I have not seen for several months, said just the betadine solution. I just want to knock this out for good.
Dr. O, I ordered some "Thrush Buster" Sav-a-hoof gel, and liquid, also have betadine. The spot we are dealing with is about 1 1/2" x 1" on the bottom of his hooves. What would you recommend I do with rotating these products. The Thrush Buster is the formyldahyde product, should I just apply once a week? Is it ok to rotate the different products? I sure don't want the cure to cause a problem, but was unsure in the article about application. We have done the remove hoof wall, now just want to keep the fungus at bay.
It is pouring down rain daily here, so everyone has to stay in, but so far his feet are staying very dry. They do pack with wet bedding at night (wood shavings) Should I put boots on him at night, or spray something like the save a hoof on the bottom to repel moisture?
Keeping at it. All we can do.
suz
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 3:42 pm:
Susan, even if I don't post, please know I'm following along and hoping the best for you and Levi! Good to know on the clean trax, I had heard nothing but the ravest reviews. Good luck!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 10:04 pm:
Thanks Aileen, I am trying so hard to not worry, but that is probably impossible. I just wonder if anyone knows how fast this stuff grows. It had been 5 weeks since his last trim, when it was solid hoof everywhere.
I felt his hoofs tonight and they are all warmish, but it is very humid, and he has been stuck in all day. They are all the same temp. My two older horses have always had ice cold feet. Levi's and Clydes too are always warmer, not hot, but not ice cold either. Here I go again being crazy !!!!!!
Used the betadine today, did not receive the other product yet.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 9:29 am:
Susan, I believe it is likely that small spots were missed and it spread from there and that is the reason for the recurrence, it is hard to emphasize enough how important removal of all effected horn and removal of all overlying horn so that the examination is thorough and ongoing. The frequency is explained in the paragraph under the "Treatment" section and is dependent on which of the products you use. I would not rotate treatments but select them based on the conditions as explained in the article. Note, formaldehyde is a very cheap chemical and may be available from your veterinarians office. I have edited the article to include a link to our article on formaldehyde which explains use of this chemical in more detail.
DrO
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 11:27 pm:
Dr. O, I have been trying to dig out at Levi's new sections, and can't believe that this guy again, did not remove the entire outer wall, I can slide the hoof pick up under the outer wall, just a bit, but still.
I have been using the hoof knife, trying to cut away the hoof wall, but it is a slow process. I got some of the sav a hoof gel, smooshed it up in there and packed it with betadine soaked cotton, duct taped it for the night. I will uncover and re-treat tomorrow, letting the air get to it during the day.
I am thinking of having my local vet out some day next week, to sedate Levi, get the dremel tool out and cutting away at it. I tried to take the tool to him last time, and the noise made him go through the roof, never even got near his foot with it. I am so worried that there is fungus in there that he did not get out, but again 2 hours away, and he did not cut it away while I was there, or maybe he did, and it just ate away more white line.
When I dig at it and it is white, and comes off in slivers, am I at normal hoof?
Will ask my vet about the formaldehyde.
I guess it could be worse, so I am going to try to think good thoughts.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 7:10 am:
If the description of abnormal in the article is not enough, try taking a clean knife to the normal feet and shave a little off. Note that the undermined wall, that overlying the WLD, will be relatively normal appearing but as long as there is WLD or space below it, it needs to be removed.
If there are WL margins you cannot visualize it cannot get any worse and you it is likely you will continue to have problems with recurrence.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2007 - 9:50 pm:
Well, I was worried that this disease was spreading again, so I made an appointment with the vet in S.D. for today. My next farrier appt. is not until 9/19, and i was worried to wait that long. The farrier however, was not going to be around, so he said the vet could check it out without removing his shoe.
Again, I have people chastising me, and all I am trying to do is help my horse.
I had used the save a hoof, then when I got the thrush buster, applied that, and tried to scratch out whatever I could see. The vet said there were no ingredients listed on the the sav a hoof product, should not have used that(the farrier he uses at his clinic, is the one who told me to use this) He did not like to use the formeldahyde as he feels it damages healthy tissue as well and diseased. Corrected me harshly for that. However, he did not remove the outlaying horn, dug out the chalky stuff, said it was not really an "active" infection, it stops in 2 of the places at the new growth area. However, the one outside, has a channel going up towards the coronary band. He wants me to dump coppertox in the affected area, bring him back on his next appointment and then he will dremel the outside wall. He said he is sound, and encouraged riding to get blood flowing in his feet.
We are trying to take this camping trip on 9/21, and his appt. is 9/19, if he removes the outer wall then, how can he be able to go trail riding.
I am already driving 2 1/2 hours, putting in $100 worth of gas in the truck, + paying vet/farrier costs, and it is not ending. How can you tell the vet he is not doing what is recommended to cure my horse? I believe what you say about the removal of alllllll of the hoof wall, but they don't, and get very "pissy" with me when I question them.
I have a feeling he is going to be chunked off to the coronary band again on the one foot. Will the coppertox be effective???
AAAAGGGGGGHHHHH
sorry for rambling.
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2007 - 10:12 pm:
Oh Susan I am sorry for your frustration, I know I went thru that with hank and you would just like to knock your head against the wall a few times!
I hope this resolves soon for you! I would THINK if his hoof is properly supported he could be rode (depending on how much is removed). Good Luck!
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2007 - 10:30 pm:
Dr O, how far are you from Susan - is this what this is going to take...???!!! Suz, I am so very frustrated for you and Levi. AARRGGHH, is right!
Lee C
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2007 - 10:33 pm:
Suzzzz!!! AAAGGGHHH is right!! You poor thing. So frustrating! I'm so sorry. Is there anywhere else you can take him? A good clinic? Teaching hospital? I KNOW how frustrating something like this can be. I just wish you could find someone that was really "up" on this stuff and could help.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2007 - 12:13 am:
Susan, Never used save a hoof what Whiskey had responded to iodine the kind you buy in a spray bottle. Think maybe big difference was my farrier caught it early. He was here last week and Whiskey's left was all gone still, but not the right. His is front of toe and probably easier to cut out. So we'll see if we can get that one clear too, again ! So sorry for you and Levi maybe pouring that bottle of wine on his foot and down your throat wasn't such a bad notion ! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2007 - 10:54 am:
Susan, to those chastising you point out that you have attempted it their way and are now looking at ongoing and possibly worsening problems. Take each of their points one by one, write them down if necessary, and address until either they or you are satisfied. I do agree with one point made by your veterinarian: I do not recommend the use of products that do not list there ingredients.
It is true formaldehyde is very damaging to living tissue and that is why it is so effective at killing the fungus. The hoof wall itself is dead and made of crosslinked proteins. Like all treatments there are yings and yangs, the ying is the death of organisms and its ability to further crosslink the proteins making up the wall making it resistant to further microbial degradation, which is why it is used to preserve dead tissue. The yang would be it is very drying but this has never created a problem for me when used on just the exposed white line. If formaldehye is so harmful, certainly nothing I have ever witnessed despite decades of use on infections of the horn, it is hard to understand why Thrushbuster has become what I would estimate as the number one thrush medication today, replacing Coppertox.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2007 - 8:19 pm:
Thanks for the support, everyone! Dr. O, everything I have read, including your article, says you must remove all outlaying horn, and do so repeatedly till all channels are exposed. I think, that those channels, that are visible in the above pics, are probably what are causing me the problems now, perhaps? Who knows.
Here is my question, Since we are planning on a camping/trail riding trip on 9/21 for a few days, of mild riding, would I be better off to hold off on my trim/debriding till we get back. That would put him at 6 weeks between trimmings. That way, he would have a more solid looking anyway, hoof wall. Then when I returned, if he needs to zoom off all the way to the coronary band again, I would not be worrying as much. I guess my question is, would one more week make a big difference.
That would make it 4 weeks after my visit yesterday when he scraped it out? He said he hit solid foot on 2 of the spots, the other one had a cavity clear up into his foot, past the new growth.
The vet college is 5 hours away, and I can not start going there, and expect to keep that up. The trip to South Dakota is already killing me financially.
Thanks
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 7:42 pm:
Dr. O, Sorry to repeat a question, but here it goes. I talked with the farrier from the Iowa State college,5 hours away. He said, what you said, you must debride all the bad hoof, and they probably missed some.
He also suggested cutting the check ligament to correct the club foot, so that he does not have continuing problems. This has been suggested as a last resort by the vet in South Dakota, as he does not think he has a severe club foot.
My question is? He will be at 5 weeks between re-setting when we plan on this riding weekend. Should I have my local farrier put a few extra nails in to be sure his shoe stays on, and go on the weekend, or . . . Keep my appointment on the 19th knowing that they should remove the bad areas. Will that leave his foot more unstable for a trail ride?
Right now he is sound, and I made that special trip allll the way up there, in hopes that he would debride his foot then, but he suggested the coppertox, come back and he would do it later.
The farrier from Iowa State, said that you should debride a little bit of the area, every time you trim, to be sure you have no channels. Again this guy is 5 hours away, not very feasible for monthly trimmings. 2 hours already takes up an entire day.
I could reschedule the trimming the following week, that would be 6 weeks, and just insist that they keep removing hoof wall. I feel it is not my place to tell a vet how to do their job, but I can not keep switching vets/farriers forever, I will have to move soon.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 7:36 am:
Susan, I really cannot answer these questions about stability without looking at the foot and as to what you should do about going riding depends on your goals. In general I would recommend doing all you can to get this foot well but a week postponement is not a big deal. I would avoid "extra nails" as you still have some active infection and the nails may drive infection deeper into the wall and considering the problems you have been having you might consider removing shoes until this is well on its way to being healed up for the same reason.
In most of the photos above I do not see evidence of a club foot in the photos above.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2007 - 2:05 pm:
Dr. O, and all. Levi went on his camping trip, and was absolutely perfect. Sound as a bell. No problems afterward, but decided to delay his farrier/vet visit till after trip.
The vet was pleased with how his foot looked. He said he was not getting any new infection, but they did cut out up higher, on both feet where ever there was any hint of old infection. Where the channel on the one foot was going up into the coronary band, he cut out about a half inch all around. I need to post a pic, but he recommended putting the coppertox in, packing it with Keratox hoof putty, and sending him off in the world to be a horse, ride him let him run around etc.
If it is really muddy I am still going to keep him in, but the keratax wax seems to keep moisture out.
He seems to think we are dealing now with old rotten lamini that is growing out, not new fungus. I guess I can only hope he is right, at least they did not leave any hovering hoof wall this time. He told me to leave the hoof putty in for a week at a time.
At least he felt that we were getting good solid foot now. He is no longer throwing off shoes, and nails are holding solid. I think I am so tired of worrying that I am just going to "go with whatever"
Hope its ok
suz
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