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Discussion on Skin irritation and hair loss
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 3:41 pm:
We have a 6 year old gelding that my son wants to show this season. He has great conformation, but we have a problem with his coat. Every spring and summer, he gets hives all over his neck and torso, and down onto his legs. We knew about it when we bought him during the winter last year, but were surprised how bad it was when warm weather hit. We always assumed they are a reaction to fly bites. The vet (who is not an equine vet, but the only one in our area) isn't very concerned, just gives him a steroid shot when it gets bad and kind of blows me off. I can't tell that the shot did anything to help. When the hives go down, they are replaced by scabs that come off with hair. It looks like Dermatophytosis from one of your articles, but it goes away every fall. It itches, because he rubs on trees constantly. After the scab goes away, he is left with a small bald spot. At its worst, he is one big speckled boy! I want to get ahead of it this year - we have gallons of long-lasting fly sprays, fly-repellent bands, and full-body fly sheets from nose to tail to knees. Are we treating this right? I don't want to wait for an outbreak to have it diagnosed because by then, it's too late for show season! 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 7:35 am:
You may well have bug bite reactions that are complicated by dermatophilus Michelle. Dermatophilus is ubiquitous in many areas of the world and opportunistic. For our suggestions I want you to read, Horse Care » Horse Management and Procedures » Controlling Houseflies and Biting Flies.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
We're going to really up our fly control this year. Should we continue the steroid shots? Is there a way to prevent/treat the dermatophilus?
He's such big, gentle horse, and he really suffered last year. I don't want to have a repeat.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 7:54 pm:
Dr. O, When grooming Tuff today, I discovered the first sore. It looks like a bump, and when scratched, the bump comes off in a perfect circle with all the hair. I do not think a fly bite cause this, although in the past, I think they have. My husband also said I should tell you that anytime he's scratched or bumped, it takes longer than usual to heal, and the wound or scar will peel and be flaky for a while, and the hair around it will also peel off with skin attached. I don't know what caused this bump, it wasn't there yesterday. He also has very oily dandruff in his mane and forelock that cant' be removed with a curry or with shampoo. I tried to post a picture, but will have to make is smaller.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 7:00 am:
I missed your earlier post Michelle. You describe Dermatophilus for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophilus. Perhaps your hives are secondary to a chronic dermatophilus infection?
After you review it if you will succinctly describe the routine care of this horse's coat and diet we can review it.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 8:49 am:
Well, I have read and read and read (I'm a science teacher and such a nerd! ) The only thing that is obvious is that there is more than one thing going on here. He has symptoms of several different problems, and I cannot pinpoint one particular cause. So..my local vet (who is a general vet) is going to refer me to Texas A&M, which is only about 1 1/2 hours away, and see what they can come up with. For the time being, I have pulled him out of the pasture, scrubbed him with medicated shampoo, covered him from nose to rear with fly mesh, and have a fan blowing on him, too. I don't think it is food allergy or fly bites at this point, as there is no evidence of hives (this time), and no change in diet or environment other than a week of warmer weather. So far, he only has the one spot on his back. But I want to prevent any more sores or scratches on him as they take a long time to heal and regrow hair. Dr. O - wish you were closer to Texas!! We would just load up and head your way.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 6:09 am:
Thanks Michelle,
I hate to see you going all the way to A&M for a spot of dermatophilus but if you believe there is some underlying disease process, perhaps a dermatologist can help.
Remember that good skin health is a balance that includes a compliment of oils and normal bacterial flora. Scrubbing the skin hard may result in trauma to the epidermis. Good coat and skin health for a horse often starts with the frequent use of a soft brush which removes dirt, spreads oils evenly and stimulates skin circulation.
I noticed in your profile you were having parasite problems but I could not tell much about your deworming program: have you reviewed our deworming overview and schedules? They are not the usual every other month rotation of products.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:10 pm:
Dr. O,
Local vet looked at him Saturday, said first thing he wanted to do was pull blood and send off to check his thyroid level. Said that with his various symptoms, including difficulty healing, thyroid may be the underlying cause, combined with a severe allergy to flies. He was surprised to hear previous owner used dex injections, to no avail. He asked me to find how much and how often. In the mean time, we are in a holding pattern, trying to prevent anymore bites or scrapes or whatever is the trigger. My husband and family laughed until they cried. He has full face, neck, body fly sheets, and I got him some pretty new fly boots saturday. Will try to post the pic. Anyway, Dr. O, does this sound like we are on the right track? His coat is in very good condition, shedding out great, shiny and soft. He is on a very good 12% pelleted feed, with Omegatin as a supplement. He gets coastal hay along with some alfalfa that we are slowly introducing, and has free access to mineral/salt blocks. Hooves are also excellent - barefoot on all 4. Mane is growing back nicely - he rubbed almost all of it off during the last outbreak.
As for the parasite problem, we caused it - when we first moved onto the place, too many horses that weren't wormed correctly in MUCH too small an area - where we eventually built barns and pens and arena. Since that is where the horses spend lots of time grazing, either b/c we have pulled them up from the pasture, or b/c that is just where they love to spend time, we consider our barn and pen areas "heavily contaminated". We worm them using your system, just every six weeks instead of 8, and once every spring, we also give them all a Panacure Powerpack in place of the regular worming. We have had 3 horses exhibit signs of parasite resistance, and at a vet's recommendation, used Panacure, and saw excellent results. We do not use the daily dewormer, though, as it doesn't fit with our feeding program for all the horses. We use either Iverease or the appropriate paste wormer. Is there anything else you would recommend? I have asked about running fecals, and the vets (both in our area) tell me I am worrying too much - just worm them regularly and save the expense.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:21 pm:
Sorry - forgot about grooming - Tuff has has been out in the pasture most of the winter here in Texas unless is is very cold, when he is brought up into the barn. Otherwise, they eat dinner, and head back out. He puts on a very heavy winter coat. As it has warmed, we started riding again, and he gets curried and brushed by my 8 year old (with mom "helping")4-5 times a week. We have washed his tail and mane once, when I posted this. We didn't wash his body - he was fine with a good grooming session, and it was still a little too chilly to get wet all over. When we do shampoo, we use EZ All on his body, and sometimes follow with betadine shampoo on the "ouchy" parts, as my son says. We condition mane and tail, and rinse everything well. We always rinse the horses off after we ride if they are very sweaty, or if it's very hot outside. Otherwise, I guess we wash once a month during the warm months, maybe twice if we are going somewhere we need to look nice. We try to spray with Endure fly spray once a day, and have also braided fly-repellent cow ear tags into his mane and tail (which worked okay for about a week). This year, I've bought fly sheets and put a box fan in his stall. We are only going to turn him out at night, and that started this weekend. We clean stalls every day.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:57 am:
Just before a deworming I would have a fecal checked occasionally you find a odd individual, you may have the weight guessed wrong, he may process it differently, if you are having problems even if they seem unrelated it is good to know you are doing a good job deworming. You can collect fresh samples them put them in labeled plastic bags and take them to his office.
You should read the article about Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Hypothyroidism in Adult Equines. I would quit the daily application of a pyrethrin fly repellant, it doesn't help anyway. I do like the idea of a fly sheet and considering the seasonal nature, you really should consider fly bites and fly bite allergy as far and away the most likely cause and the sheet alone might not be enough, for more see these 3 articles on the Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin menu. The article on culicoides hypersensitivity then the 2 articles on controlling flies. You can reach the menu off the navigation bar at the top of this page.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 - 6:56 pm:
Dr. O - stopped the fly spray, continued the fly sheets. In the last week, Tuff rubbed the only part not covered - his face. We saw no evidence of any fly bites, but he rubbed hair off totally on the side of his mouth and up his cheek, and skin became very scaly and dry by the weekend, almost calloused feeling on his lips. We put Furzole (sp?) on it, and it didn't get better or worse. I was hoping to prevent secondary infection. Finally got hold of vet today. Thyroid test results have not come back yet, but did find that his liver is not functioning correctly. He has several enzymes that are low and protein level is "off". He did not tell me specifics, and I was on cell phone in car and could not write anything down. He said we can treat with injections, but he still thinks thyroid is an issue, too. He asked if he was off his feed. No - horse eats like a "horse", and he has had this skin condition most of his life. Vet thought maybe could be secondary infection causing it, but horse looks healthy otherwise. He is very muscular - "halter bred" on top side, speed bred on bottom, but he is always "slow", drags his feet, walks when everyone else runs, but is not lethargic in my opinion, just lazy. Vet says maybe laziness is related to the problem???? This horse comes from big time barrel horses, 1 and 2D, but he is kid horse because he is too slow for anything else. All I want is for him keep his hair and skin! Anyway, still in a holding pattern, but I'm getting frustrated. We are not making progress on treating him, and in the mean time, he is harming himself!!!!! Is there anything I should ask the vet? Anything I should be looking for? Is there anything I can do to light a fire? Two and a half weeks seems too long to wait for a simple suggestion on treatment!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 6:18 am:
Michelle,
This is frustrating I feel like I am constantly swatting foul balls back into play. Did you read the article on hypothyroidism?
The last comments above about the blood work do not make sense to me. Generally liver enzyme levels are not clearly indicative of liver dysfunction, particularly when low (usually not a sign of ill health), and protein levels are the result of a number of factors. The only exception to this assessment would be severe liver cirrhosis in which case skin problems would be the least of your troubles. See Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Mouth, Esophagus, and Liver » Liver Disease and Failure.
The articles I reference above on pruritus in the horse give rule outs, diagnostic steps, specific and empirical treatment regimens, you should be discussing these with your vet.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 1:39 pm:
I've had a good cry and a good howl. We are between a rock and a hard place, and have decided to go back to plan A. I am taking off work and hauling him to A&M. His face is getting worse, almost up to his eye now. He obviously does not have a serious liver problem, and he has no symptoms of thyroid problems. My vet is not interested in actually examining him in person again. I am not a vet, but I feel like I have been doing my vet's job, and I am uncomfortable second guessing him. Dr. Reece at A&M is an equine dermatologist, and I'm hopeful we will have at minimum a diagnosis in the near future. This is a lifelong problem for this horse, and I do not have enough experience to even begin to guess what is going on with him. Dr. O, thank you so much for taking the time to direct me to articles. While I don't know what is wrong yet, I do know what is NOT wrong.
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Member:
tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 4:22 pm:
Hi Michelle,
I've been following your post, and would be interested to hear what A&M finds out, if anything, about your horse.
Nicole
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 5:00 am:
I think this is a good choice Michele. Long term generalized pruritus certainly suggest some sort of autoimmune or hypersensitivity allergic reaction but I have not seen any work to rule out ringworm.
I suspect cultures for bacteria and fungi and biopsy to identify the nature of the skin disease will be in order as few such problems can be accurately identified by appearance alone. Let us know what they find and before you go could you post some pictures of the face or any lesions of the body?
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 10:28 pm:
Dr.O,
Took Tuff to A&M today (Whoop! I'm class of '95) and was so glad to get some answers!! I cannot say enough about Dr. Reese (head of equine dermatology) and Dr. Joyce (head of A&M equine hospital), plus all the interns. They took the time to exam him from head to toe, and discussed numerous possibilities with us. They worked on him for over 4 hours. He is still there tonight. This is where we stand: they ran an allergy panel of 76 injections. They compared the reactions to 2 controls - 1 saline and 1 histamine, and rated them from 0-4 with 0 no reaction, and 4 comparable to histamine. At 15 minutes, he was FOUR PLUS!!!! for flies, horn flies, fire ants, and timothy hay, and 3+ for grain smut and ragweed. They were going to observe at 6 and 24 hours. So, we definitely have a severe allergy, which is no surprise. They also pulled blood to check his immunoglobulin levels, as well as numerous scrapings of old scars, his face, new scratches, and hives, as well as apparently healthy areas for comparison. Also running a fungus culture. Won't get all those results for a little while. They were not concerned about low liver levels, and he exhibits no symptoms of thyroid problems. We will pick him up tomorrow. Vets decided to wait on starting allergy shots until we know his immunoglobulin levels, as this can effect allergy shots and his reactions. Very concerned about anaphylaxis at one point as shot for flies was given!! But, he was a very good boy during all this, and one of the interns made an offer to buy him. She is looking for a kid horse, and Tuff was a sweetheart the entire time. They said to continue to keep all flies off him, and to use pyrethrin when needed during riding and not to use permethrins or anything with Deet for right now as they can also cause a reaction. I asked why it was worse this year than last, and they told me that certain conditions can make allergies escalate to a severe problem. Dr. Joyce did make it clear that regardless, there will be no "quick fix", and we will be looking at long-term treatment.
I'm sorry I don't have pics - cannot find my cord to connect digital camera and computer.
I don't know if anyone else is following this, but if you are in the TX, OK, LA, or NM areas, A&M is well worth the trip. Even with all the time spent, including all the tests, exams, and overnight stay, it is less than I have spent at my local vet. I am kicking myself for not loading him up last year and making the 1 1/2 hour trip!!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 7:54 am:
It sounds like you had a thorough exam Michelle. I don't see a biopsy on your list to check for autoimmune conditions, did they discuss this? Are there clinical reasons for ruling out this possibility? Did they explain the limitations of provocative skin testing in horses?
If fly bite allergy is a potential problem and biting flies are present I disagree with the assessment to use pyrethrins which are useless within 20 minutes of application, instead of DEET which can truly protect the horse for hours. Haven't you traded exposure to a known high risk problem, the flies, for a possible low risk problem, a DEET reaction? Think of the millions of people who use DEET every year with no problems whatsoever. There is a reason they are not slathering on the pyrethrins.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 9:11 am:
Dr. O, This is where I will have to plead ignorance!! I cannot tell you if they ran a biopsy or not. They pulled samples from all over his body. I will ask when we go back this afternoon. There were 4 vet students and 2 vets crawling all over him taking skin and hair samples.
We had a very long discussion about fly sprays and repellants. One of the concerns they had was that he is so reactive right now that any irritation is causing hair loss. Dr. Reese said she wanted to keep him covered in fly sheets and under fans until the results come back and we have a better idea what else is going on besides just the allergies. Everyone was in agreement that he has an underlying issue that either aggravates the allergies, or is aggravated BY the allergies. They were pretty concerned about his problems healing - any scratch or bump will cause a large area of skin and hair to peel back, and they took many skin samples from these areas. However, I will be sure to bring up both these questions this afternoon: was there a biopsy, and ask again about fly repellants.
Thanks for giving us all a sounding board and a place to ask questions!!! Especially those of us that are relatively new to horses.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 10:40 am:
Michelle if a good fly sheet is in order, once the diagnosis is made, while a bit pricey at $125 I think, is the Rambo fly protector. It's the best fly sheet I have ever owned. It has a belly band, a neck cover, is tan so it doesn't show dirt, hoses off dirt easily and is the only fly sheet that I have owned that has made it an entire season on my horse with no rips. My horse also doesn't get the welts from the bugs that are able to bite through others. That coupled with a garlic supplement and whatever is in the automatic ceiling fly sprayers (which everyone jokes is Soilent green from some horror movie) we don't have any problems here in OK where they are endemic for months out of the year! Good luck with your boy!
Take care.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 10:53 am:
Corrine - I will definitely check out the Rambo Sheet. I found a sale on fly protection (80% off) and ended up with a weatherbeeta body sheet, saxon neck sheet, wrangler fly boots, and some off brand face mask (which is red and fuzzy). My husband laughed until he cried - said he looked like he was being punished or something. I replied it looks like he is LOVED, just on a budget. Of course, he ripped the body sheet on the hip after just a few days, and being teachers, buying new stuff over and over again is not really an option, so I used some heavy twine and just restitched it. So, now he looks like Frankenstein!!! But, better funny looking than itchy. Does the garlic really work? Someone else recommended it, but I kept thinking that feeding a 1230 pound horse enough garlic to keep the flies away would be a difficult. Where do you get it?
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 1:10 pm:
Michelle, the garlic was about $12 a month for a horse that size from Smartpak, which can be found at smartpak.com and is delivered straight to the barn and then billed to you. Comes in daily single use packages with his name on them to make it easy to use. Of course it smells like the dickens so no discerning fly will want to come near him and nose kisses are out as the air coming out of their nostils could knock you back 100 feet. But on the upside when Demetrius is on his, I always felt like I was in an Italian Pizzaria when he was fed dinner. There are also granules which don't smell but they are $30 a month and being in the military we live on a budget as well as we used the cheaper stuff.
As for the Rambo fly protector, like I said, you pay that money once and it will last for years. Unlike every other fly sheet I have gotten which has lasted a few months and could not be repaired...I spent that much in one season on a few sheets. You can google Rambo fly protector Cheap and sometimes small tack shops have great deals. Good luck. Ever since I learned in science class that flys land on garbage then on your food and regurgitate I have hated them!
Another thing that they say works great and is recommended by vets is Fly Predators, which are small insects the size gnats that you spread on the ground and they kill the flies in the larva stage. One barn near us used them and they only saw a few flies a day. What I like about them is they are non toxic and horses don't need fly masks or sheets etc if used properly. 1-5 horses cost about $18.95 a month. You can check them out at www.spaldinglabs.com (I just got the brochure) and will use them when we have our own place.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 1:24 pm:
Problem with the fly predators is your neighbors have to be using them too.. or you will loose the little buggies.. And if your neighbors are cattle ranchers with 400 + head of cattle.. well they just laugh at you.. Or if your other neighbors are just slum lords, that don't take care of their animals .. the predators just don't work.. we tried them for two years..
I too will look into the Rambo fly sheets...
thanks..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 10:36 pm:
When we turned the hall at A&M today in the medical wing, Tuff could hear my son and started calling for him. If he could have wagged his tail and licked our faces, he would have. I teared up as my 8 year old pushed into his stall to give his buddy a nice pat, and told him he is now an "Aggie horse".
Anyway, we didn't get any different news today - allergies are very nasty, waiting on immunoglobulin levels to make decision on allergy shots.
These were the results:
Skin Scrapings (from various areas that I won't take time to list): denatured yeast, occasional cluster of cocci and coccobacilli, debris, melanin, and squamous cells.
Intradermal Skin Testing: Reacts to pigweed, marshelder, russian thistle, western ragweed (high level rxn), timothy grass (very high level rxn), corn smut, grass smut, grain smut, deer flies and horseflies. (Injection site of deer flies, horseflies, and timothy grass were still reacting as of pm this evening)
Serum immunoglobulin and dermatophyte culture: results pending.
Medications: HyDrOxyzine, 50mg, 8 capsules daily; Pramoxine hyDrOchloride, 1.5%, use between baths and as needed; Chlorhexidine 2%/Miconazole 2% shampoo - bathe twice weekly.
Additional Instructions: Avoid ALL timothy, feed only fresh pelleted feeds, continue diligent insect control and fly sheets. Supplement feed with increased Omega 3 fatty acids, recommend Glanzen 3 from HorseTech. (We currently use Omegatin from Evergreen feeds - not enough omega 3) We are waiting on hypoimmunization vaccine until we know immunoglobulin levels; at that time we will decide if vaccine is likely to help Tuff or not.
Did not biopsy, as general opinion is it would not aid in diagnosis at this point, but may be necessary in the future if current treatment is not successful.
Vets okayed permethrin sprays (Endure) and Deet, but must watch very closely for reactions. Should not use anything such as bands or treated fly sheets as they will most likely cause a contact irritation. He will continue to be stalled during day under fans, out at night. Do not feed garlic right now; don't want to add anything to a system that is hyper-reactive, but might in the future.
Whew!! Think that sums it up! My daughter assures me she can get the pictures uploaded of him in all his pretty sheets.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 7:47 am:
Thanks Michelle,
A few comments and a few questions if you have the time.
First testing of ingested garlic has not been found to be an effective insect repellent for any biting bug.
Pramoxine is a new one on me. This is a topical anesthetic used on the skin and I see in people where it has been used for pruritus. If you use this, be sure to let us know what your experiences are. I believe, though I have no scientific proof, the thicker skin of horses makes such topicals less effective.
Though essential fatty acids (omega-3s) are in our general recommendations, consider it experimental as it is not clearly beneficial. Used alone in well conducted (double blinded) studies it has a effectiveness rate of between 0 and 25%. In conjunction with antihistamines it seems to boost the antihistamines effectiveness a little. However these rates might be comparable to what you would achieve with placebos, something not done is these studies. Considering its expense at adequate doses in horses I am always in a quandary to recommend it. What dosage rate of omega-3 fatty acids did they recommend and what will this cost using Glanzen?
DrO
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 6:10 pm:
Michelle. Continued good luck with your Aggie.
Thanks for your information on Garlic Dr. O. does it keep non biting flies away? I would rather not waste money and certainly don't want to advocate it if it's not scientifically proven. Thanks!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 6:46 pm:
I bought a huge tub of Wendal's dried garlic a few years back. Horses didn't care for it, eating that is. But I found that sprinkling it on the floor of the stalls kept the flies down. We had dirt floors at the time. One horse heated up really bad when he ate it, was soaking wet after a few minutes of ingesting the garlic.
There are recipes on here for homemade fly sprays if you search.
Good luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 7:24 am:
If only there was a homemade recipe that worked Angie. Concerning your asking about house flies Corinne, I don't know. I have not seen such research in that issue.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 7:40 am:
DrO,
Homemade recipes work as well as anything else; don't last very long but give some comfort. And I feel better knowing that I am not using Deet. I do fog the stalls with a yard type bug killer also, but not when the horses are in the stalls.
Having bats live with us yet also helps, they eat a lot of sqeeters!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 9:12 am:
The website for Glanzen is https://www.horsetech.com/glanzen.htm. He will be getting max amount - 6 oz daily.
Fly predators are not an option - we have WAY too many cows to do any good.
Using the lotion mainly on his face. Don't know if it has had time to work, or if the initial inflammation is going away, but he has stopped rubbing his face, and has the hint of a beard coming back this morning, although his eyes are still pretty bare.
Since he is under fans and his own fly sprayer hangs down directly on him during the day, we are taking off fly sheets every morning, and putting them back on during the night when he is turned out. Even with fleece, they were rubbing a little bit.
Just a little aside - this is our first time to ever "stall horses", and to really control their feeding. They are getting show feed with supplements, lots of really good US alfalfa, and are in from about 7 in the morning to about 4:30 in the afternoon. Our slow horses are now HOT!!!! Bucking, kicking, running around, just generally hot to trot!!! Lots of zooming and acting silly. I am reallllly making sure they get exercise every day now, even if it is just driving around a round pen for a bit. When the kids ride now (these are their horses), we take LOTS of time to warm up, make sure the horses are in "thinking" mode!!!! Neither of my kids has ever come off a horse, sure don't want to start now!! I've always heard that feed can make a horse hot, and that stalling can do the same, but was always skeptical - thought it might be more an excuse for horses that were a little spoiled. Um......I'm a believer now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 1:09 pm:
Angie if it makes you feel better that is fine but is poor advice for those trying to avoid diseases caused by biting flies.
DrO
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Member:
judyhens
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 7:39 pm:
Hi! Which of the medications described for itching, are legal in animals shown under USEF rules?
Judy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 8:22 am:
Judy, post this in a new discussion I think it would be of general interest to all.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 8:43 am:
Dr. O - the lotion seems to be doing okay - face is growing hair back in, but itchiness on legs is still there. He is uncovered from where the body fly sheet ends and where fly boots begin, and we have seen him chewing his legs, although he hasn't chewed hair off. I had an "inspiration" last night - zip tied permethrin ear tags for our heifers around the bottom of his fly sheet. They are not touching his body to cause irritation, but may keep flies away from that one foot area he is uncovered. Otherwise, he is a different horse compared to this time last year. So far, no more hives. Giving him the medicine all at one time. Would it be better to split the dose into 2 each day, or keep it as 8 pills once a day?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 9:34 am:
As I am uncertain about exactly which medication you are talking about first follow the prescription insturctions. You should check it against our recommendations in the article or on our medication page and if that is different than prescribed you should discuss this with your veterinarian. We are always interested in differences of opinion so let us know if different and why.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 11:49 am:
Instructions say: HyDrOxyzine, 50mg, 8 capsules daily. Didn't know if I should do that at one time or two. They are capsules, and I've just been pulling them apart and sprinkling them on his food.
I couldn't find it in the medications you discussed.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 12:05 pm:
Instructions say: HyDrOxyzine, 50mg, 8 capsules daily. Didn't know if I should do that at one time or two. They are capsules, and I've just been pulling them apart and sprinkling them on his food.
I couldn't find it in the medications you discussed.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 1:15 pm:
In my medical experience, when medication orders say 8 capsules of 50 Mg HyDrOxyzine daily and doesn't specify every 4, 5, 8 or 12 hrs for example that typically means once every 24 hours. And it's standard to keep the same time each day to ensure he has adequate levels in his system, although you can give up to 30 minutes before and up to 30 minutes after usually without incident, most importantly with antibiotics, shouldn't be too much of an issue with antihistimines. If you are unsure you should inquire with A & M. Additionally some capsules should not be pulled apart as it can affect the absorption of the medication, although that might only be with people. In this case clarification with the prescribing vet would be best. Good luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 4:45 pm:
Michelle it is under treatment in the article Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Overview of Pruritus: Scratching & Rubbing.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 9:33 pm:
I called A&M today - both vets out until next week. Got immunoglobulin levels: IgA RID 34; IgM 70; IgA 22.50. Are these within normal ranges?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 - 8:55 am:
Michelle,
You will have to tell us using that laboratory's normals, be sure to include the units also.
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 10:53 pm:
Well, been awhile since I've had time to even sit down at my computer.............but, must brag on my kiddo!!!! After lots of work and effort and grooming and learning on both Cole and Tuff's part (and $$$$!!!), the show was a fabulous success!!! Cole was the youngest in the show (he is 8), and we were a little nervous about him being up against 18 year olds with lots of experience, but, no need!! TUFF TOOK GRAND CHAMPION GELDING!! Yippee! Cole hasn't taken off the belt buckle he won, and his first rosette is on the mantle. There were almost 40 in my son's showmanship class, and he took 6th. He is hooked on showing. We are going to sell our kidneys to pay for this new found love of his. He just finished horsemanship camp, and is begging to join the ranch rodeo team.
Thank you to all of you with your advice and suggestions, especially Dr. 0. I didn't really think this would ever come through, but we have a management plan in place now for Tuff's skin. In fact, Cole really watches it closely, and keeps him sprayed and puts sunscreen on his nose every time he rides, and counts out pills religiously for his "best horse in the entire world".
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 10:57 pm:
This is a photo of him coming out of the last class of the night. Kind of sweaty and wilted, but it's Cole's favorite. 
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 12:32 am:
Congratulations! What an accomplishment.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 7:39 am:
Congratulations to Cole! What a wonderful little horseman he is; you must be so proud of your little guy!
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 8:14 am:
Eight years old and addicted to showing horses . . . Ahhh . . . now the fun begins, Michelle.
Great job, Cole. Keep up the good work and take care of that wonderful pony.
Great horse, Michelle and Dad. Finding a safe, sound, young horse for an eight-year old to show is not an easy task.
Great parents who will spend what it takes in time, effort, (and money) to keep a child's horse healthy and to keep the kids and horses safe and happy.
So, Michelle, it really was the fly and timothy allergies, mostly? Does Tuff still have to wear his fly sheet and boots and cow fly strips every day? When were you able to stop the medication, if at all? Have the vets seen horses grow out of those kinds of allergies?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 8:14 am:
Most excellent Michelle. Here it is time to educate us if you would. Can you briefly list your current working diagnosis and treatment plan? I feel it is in the above posting but somewhat scattered about and may have changed since your last postings.
Also were the immunoglobulin levels within normal limits or elevated and what did the veterinarians think that meant?
DrO
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 11:15 am:
The root of the problem is severe fly allergies, along with generally sensitive skin.
Vets decided against the shots for right now. As long as he stays on his medicine, we stay in front of the reactions. Initial dosage was too low. Instead of 8 once a day, he was supposed to get 8 twice a day. We found the right level to apply the fly spray. If we put it on too heavy, his skin would get very greasy and peel; too little, and he would get enough bites to react. Fly mask and fly boots, no matter how often they were cleaned, would collect dirt and irritate. We put the non-itch lotion on his face, and then lightly apply the fly spray over it. Instead of fly boots, which really bothered him, I bought a CASE of cheap polo wraps, and changed them out every other day. Initially, when the sores were there from his chewing, I put anitibiotic on it, then baby diapers, then the wraps. We invested in Rambo fly sheets. They are worth their weight in gold! Can't tear them up! We've had over 20 inches of rain since the beginning of June, and the barn and pastures were flooded, so he has been out alot without the fly sheets to prevent rain rot on his back, and he seems to be fine. I watch for a surge in flies. For some reason, they haven't been as bad as they were during the spring.
Everyone is still guessing at this point how it will be next spring. He seems to be much better in fall and have no problems at all in winter. We are going to aggressively manage it starting very early next year, see if we get better initial results. We have new fan and misting systems, changed the flooring in the barn. We can't keep fly predators, we have WAY too many cattle everywhere, but we have dung beetles, which break down the manure within 4-5 hours, and seems to be keeping the fly population down. Never read or heard anything about them helping, but stands to reason if flies don't have manure, they can't breed. Wonder if those can be bought and released?
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 11:17 am:
Oh yeah, we also fed a better feed - Dynasty Show from Evergreen, as well as Glanzen coat supplement, 6 oz a day, which was recommended by our vet. It was a little more expensive, but very palatable and seemed to really put a bloom on all the horses.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 11:31 am:
Immunoglobulin levels were low, and vets felt allergy shots would not be as effective as his immune system is not firing on all cylinders. They want to see him at the beginning of spring next year to re-evaluate.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 11:48 am:
Last pics - this was them last week. Hard to imagine 3 years ago we had one horse, and now we have 6! What a wonderful life! We spend extra time (away from school, volleyball, basketball, and football ) with each other at the barn. We have met so many interesting and kind people. Horses have really brought us close together. We are so busy, but it is so worth it. We never expected for the kids to ever compete, we are all too new to horses, but here we are! They are so happy with local shows, rodeos, and playdays, so we load up when we can. We cheer when they win, and laugh when a horse decides to be a horse and duck a barrell or skip a pole.  
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 5:41 pm:
Hardly anything better for kids than a love of horses! It keeps them out of so much other (not so desirable) stuff! Heaps of kudos to you and your husband! How did you get the kids started? Did you do any pony club or 4H? I have a grand daughter I want to get interested in horses, and would sure like any words of advice! Thanks, Julie
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 7:17 pm:
The best thing is to find a kid horse that is trully a kid horse!! They are worth their weight in gold - safe, spook-free, sure footed, tolerant of noodles in the saddle and hard hands on the reins, and willing to be petted and loved without becoming a spoiled tyrant. Find a trainer that holds camps for kids. A week on a horse with 10 other little girls on horses pretty much cements it in their hearts. Then, find the smallest, most out of the way play day in some little pasture somewhere. No pressure, just fun, and go with the hopes of "not falling off". Cheer and video and laugh, and do lots of networking. Although my husband produces rodeos, we don't do the high-pressure competititions. Not as much fun. Good luck!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 7:20 pm:
Julie - your paint is gorgeous!! My daughter rides a black and white paint mare, and mine is a sorrell and white. The filly we show is her paint daughter. Does your grand daughter already ride?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 8:34 pm:
Thanks Michelle, Horse camp sounds like a great way to go! My grand daughter isn't a year old yet, but I want to be prepared! I hate to admit it, but I've already bought a shetland pony and have trained her to drive. My paint may just turn out to be a good child's horse. He's only six now, but already very calm and has a naturally sweet nature. Doesn't know how to be aggressive and seems capable of being pretty tolerant. And I totally agree, a kid safe horse is worth easily as much as a Grand Prix jumper! You're trusting them with your child--that's worth making an investment.
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:06 pm:
Michelle, Sounds like heaven. My pony cart will get here next week...can't wait!!!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:48 pm:
Oh - so cute!! The play days in our area have lead line competitions - little bitty kiddos on small ponies and/or ancient horses with dads and grandads pulling them around poles and barrels, with lots of ribbons and sparkles and pink boots!! he he he - never too early to start practicing! In fact, our friend starts taking students at age 4, as long as they will stay overnight away from home. It's amazing to see them LOPING over poles and through cones around the arena by the end of the week. She swears it's because there are no parents around to make the kids nervous.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 12:07 am:
Well, another confession--I already have the boots, but I got red ones and hope that doesn't upset her color scheme. Got them before she was born and it turns out she's a redhead, like Grandma! I can't believe--loping!!! Of course it's because no parents around. Fear only sets in with age I think. I saw a leadline class a few weeks ago. It was too cute. Horses and little cowgirls all gussied up--little chaps and even tiny spurs! And you're right--all the boots were pink!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 10:33 am:
Great update Michelle but I need some clarification on what you are using for treatment. When you say "8" for the dosage of medicine, what medication are you using, the amount you are giving (8cc's ?) and what is it's concentration.
Concerning control of flies, note that most biting flies do not breed in manure, for more on control see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Controlling Houseflies and Biting Flies and be sure to follow the link to the midges article.
DrO
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