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Discussion on Brain tumors as a result of heavy metals from bridles?
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New Member:
dutchans
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 12:19 pm:
I am since long interested in horse health. Some twenty years ago I never heard anybody talking about a brain tumor. However, during the last years I do hear this diagnosis from different people.
I wondered whether this can be a result of the use of bridles made out of copper and/or other heavy metal mixes.
I would like to hear the opinion of dr.O. on this issue and whether other people also see or hear more brain tumors as before.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 3:00 pm:
Hello Dutch Ans,
One problem I see is that copper bits have been around a good deal longer than twenty years. I remember copper bits in common use when I was a teenager and that is a good deal longer than 20 years. There are suggestions in the human medical literature that high copper exposure can lead to increase cancer rates but it is unclear what the association is causal. I have not noticed an increase is the rates of brain tumors in horses but do notice that horse owners tend to have more necropsies performed, which might cause an apparent increase in reporting of the problem.
An interesting project would be what are the serum and hair copper levels of horses that regularly use copper bits compared with horses under the same management that use iron bits.
DrO
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:52 am:
Just a thought, Dr. O, it seems to me that horses are living longer than ever. It would make sense to me that they are therefore dying of different causes than years ago.
Parasite management in particular has increased longevity, has it not? So when a horse is allowed to grow old, I would hypothesize that cancers would start to play a larger role in mortality in general. So just because copper has been in bits for a long time, it doesn't necessarily point to its innocence, but neither does it implicate it in tumor growth.
I would also be interested in a study of the type you describe.
Thanks for bringing up an interesting theory, Dutch Ans.
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:35 am:
Very interesting topic! Personally I think that copper would not be the cause,
Copper and iron bits have been used for centuries the earlier records of domestication of horses for work instead of for food date well before Christ by the Chinese, Mongolians and the like.
I would be more inclined to blame it on the use of chemicals that have become very popular en the past 50 years or so, like fertilizers, food additives and colours, and I might have my head bitten off by Dr. O but as we know drugs are a big business, I don’t mean LSD and the like I mean drugs as in medicine.
All one has to do is listen to the adverts, “You have a paaaiiin” you are depressed, you’ve got cholesterol, , you need Advil, Aspirin Vitamins… it is seems that the spend as much time in creating illnesses that they do on medicine to cure it.
And horses are relatively new in this fashion.
Ok ok ok I shot up
Liliana
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 9:23 pm:
Dr. O is very correct that human studies show an excess copper and cancer connection. A question in my mind is whether the person was exposed to excess copper (i.e. in the water, or as a result of copper piping) or whether the cancer caused copper to be retained. Do know I read a book recommending that if diagnosed with cancer, eliminate any exposure to copper in water pipes, etc. I have been using a bit that has copper. Now I am rethinking whether I ought to switch to stainless steel or "German Silver." I don't know what German Silver is -- maybe it is a composite that is not good. I would rather err on the side of caution. Dr. O -- would stainless steel be the better choice?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 11:09 pm:
Trouble with stainless bits is that many horse prefer iron or copper and those two metals seem to keep their mouths more moist and better lubricated.
How about sweet iron? What is it made of?
Aren't there more cases of human cancers now than there used to be? Like horses, humans are also living longer than they used to. I'm wondering if there's a corelation and that one reason there is more cancer reported in both humans and horses is both are living longer. Maybe in the past both died from poor nutrition, over work, etc before they could die of cancer.
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New Member:
153337
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 12:30 am:
As a certified nutritionist I look at brain cancer relating more to self inflicted environmental pollutants and lowered immune status, along with lower liver function. I've talked with several men with brain cancers, and they used to mix equal and sweet and low in their coffee or teas. Great combo for the brain.
I'd imagine there are more man made toxins in horses food today, plus we have better diagnosis when a horse dies to look at the why's. But to extrapolate from human to horse which is 8 to 10 times the body weight, means a horse needs a lot higher amount of copper, than what i can imagine he could chew off of a bit. Horses also don't in general get the horrible diet most humans eat, with trans fats, that lower the foundation of cellular communication.
Then again we vaccinate the heck out of them, and I'm not sure how much mercury are in those vaccines, either. Maybe Dr. O knows more about the
additives in all these vaccines that are used.
Well just a thought.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:13 am:
Well, isn't this interesting! Great to hear from a nutritionist, Amber.
Sara, I agree that living longer results in different causes of death.
I personally have known a few people with brain tumors of various sorts and aggressiveness, but no horses. Have heard of lots of other horse cancers, though.
Just curious, are the grain products that are used in feed the same as those grown for human consumption, or are they able to use different pesticides on animal-bound crops? Or does it just get sold to different processors from the same crop? (When I was a kid, I remember munching a little on the oats from my horse's sweet feed--I know, weird).
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:23 am:
Guys the first question to ask is whether brain tumors, or other possible ill effects from perceived problems, are really on the rise before we attribute a cause. This is not at all clear and the near doubling of the life of the horse just during my professional life time suggests we are doing something right. As to the more direct questions, I see no reason to fear a copper bit or a copper water pipe.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 8:34 am:
According to the American Cancer Society, death rates from cancers are declining (due in part to improved treatment and early detection) and the actual rate of cancer incidences is stable since the mid 1990s. This is true of humans. I think it is fair to assume that the leaps in veterinary medicine combined with increased longevity points to the same would be true of horses.
Liliana, I hate to open up another can of worms...and I do so with all due respect...but I take exception to you implying that drugs are harmful. Yes, of course, if not taken correctly, ANYTHING can be harmful. Too much water can kill a person. But let me assure you, that "big business" pharmaceutical companies are not in business to kill their customers.
Now, I will be completely honest and tell you that I work for one of those "evil" companies and quite frankly, I'm tired of having a bullseye on my back. I am extremely proud of the fact that I work for a company that saves millions of lives every year and improves the lives of millions of others.
Implying that pharma is in business to deliberately harm people makes no sense. Again, people (and our animals) are living longer and healthier lives, due in part to advances in medical care and the availability of safe and effective drugs.
OK...bring it on...
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 12:59 pm:
Oh come on Fran obviously you are not a Tom Cruise fan and haven’t seen Mission Impossible 2.
Me thinks I pricked a widle nerve here for a change… It SEEMS they are… I didn’t say they are, both my dad and my brother are surgeons and my sis a psychologist.
I wanted to be a Vet but when I was about 8 or 9 I used to love helping my cousin who was vet and one day this fancy lady came into his surgery with a beautiful Alsatian puppy about 6 months old to be euthanase as he had chewed her Armani shoes… So I knew then that I would euthanise the woman, keep the puppy end up in jail… so I became a business administrator instead
Liliana
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 1:35 pm:
Liliana, you'd probably have made a great vet. Maybe you could have practiced from jail?
The one reason I'd make a terrible vet is that I could never handle the animal owners! Our vet had numerous cats and dogs whose owners wanted put down for various reasons. Every spring he also has quite a few orphan lambs he feeds because the sheepmen that owned them didn't want to be bothered feeding them and would just let them die.
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 10:31 am:
So true, I'd have definitely have had to practice from jail! I’d probably chloroform all the bad keepers!.
At the yard in England I shared the grassing with farmers, and at lambing season either myself or my daughter would find little orphan lamb left to die, the excuse was that they would not take to human feeding! What a load of …
Incidentally has anyone read All creatures great and small by… sh.. I can’t remember…he is a Vet from the 30’s who practiced in Yorkshire. Mr. Herriot!
Anyway if you haven’t it is definitely fun sad and very illustrative reading!
Liliana
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 11:25 am:
There are at least 4 books written by James Herriot - All Creatures Great and Small, All things Wise and Wonderful, (can't remember the 3rd title) and The Lord God Made Them All.
I read them as a teenager and continue to re-read every once in a while over the years. I've always loved them. I too would highly recommend them. Although the veterinary practices are positively antiquated, I agree with Liliana - they are a fun, funny, educational and definitely heartbreaking read. Even after all these years, there are specific stories within them that can still bring me to tears.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 11:27 am:
I love Herriot's books! I can't remember if it was a movie or a BBC special, but I saw an adaptation of All Creatures Great and Small on TV and enjoyed it a lot.
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 12:23 pm:
Alas I only have All creatures, and I committed a crime to get itIt kind of accidentally ended up in my suit case when I stayed at little cabin in Celestun in the Golf of Mexico where one can see the Flamingos and Alligators in the wild.
I love all the stories, Petunia the pig that screams every time she sees Herriot, the way he obviously loved his wife, (just like my husband )
It is so wonderfully written that it transports me to ol’ Yorkshire folk town.
Gosh it made me homesick darn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 1:20 pm:
It was a long running series produced by the BBC, based on the Herriot books, that was picked up by PBS and we still get reruns here locally. The 4 titles are taken from 4 lines of a poem or a hymn:
All creatures great and small
All things wise and wonderful
All things bright and beautiful
The Lord God made them all
I may not have line 2 and 3 transposed but you get the idea.
DrO
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 1:32 pm:
I remember it now! It's a church song also,
All things bright and beautiful,
all creatures great and small,
all things wise and wonderful
and the God Lord made the all. la la la
Lucky you to get it on TV, all I got once by a fluke was Faulty towers..
Mmmm Dr. O I guess you've seen your share that need chloroform
I know you can't tell...
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 2:02 pm:
Liliana, his share of patients or owners?
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 2:31 pm:
Let's call it animal keepers!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 4:17 pm:
I just re-read three of the books - and we watched the TV series also, when it was on PBS.
Great books - there are some others too. One with only cat stories, that I got for my daughter and then did not give it to her - too many sad endings. She has had enough of those in her life.
Lilo
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