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  Discussion on Mare who lost her foal at 7 1/2 months
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Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 14, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

Dr. O,
I am the individual who wrote you back in November because my mare lost her foal. She is back on cycle (we have had her under lights since then), cycling every 18 days, and is in good health. We had a culture done in November after 5 days of treatment when she lost the foal, and it came back clean.

Do you have any further suggestions to prevent this from happening again, as we plan to breed her in February? My vet has suggested flushing her after we breed her and she ovulates, but I would like your opinion. Thanks...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 15, 2003 - 6:05 am:

I really do not think this type flushing will have an effect on the pregnancy 7 and 1/2 months later. Late term monitoring with the ultrasound may give you a early enough handle to respond with treatment, if placentitis is the problem. See the article for details. Very few of us in general practice have done enough of this to have experience but the measurements seem straightforward.
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

Dr. O,
The mare mentioned above is now at 5 1/2 months, and has been given her 2nd Rhino shot; I gave her the first one, one month prior to breeding.

She is beginning to show some of the same signs she showed last year, and I want to make sure I am prepared and provide treatment if necessary to keep her from aborting again. She is a little swollen around her teats, in the udder and is having a little (very little) bloody discharge. The discharge is so small, that I usually see it as caked blood around the vagina.

I have another mare in foal who is showing these same signs, but since she is maiden, I do not know if this is normal during pregnancy or not. Should I have my vet out to examine both mares? If so, what tests should he run on the mare who aborted last year? Anyone else out there have similar issues? (Like a mare who has aborted twice late term in a 2 year period?) Thanks for all your help...this forum is so great!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2003 - 6:31 pm:

This type discharge is common and not really blood, I don't think. I think it is large numbers of exfoliated mucous cells that appear as a pink to reddish discharge. I cannot know if things are normal however, if you are uncertain or worried have her checked as is described in the article on placentitis.
DrO
Member:
Lesleyb

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003 - 9:58 am:

Michelle,
I too have a mare that I would love to breed, but she has had 3 abortions at around 5 to 5 1/2 months in three years. It's a long story and I won't go into detail here, my mare is currently having a year off. I now have a real horse vet and he has laid out a plan to try her again next year and he will be monitoring her throughout. He is hoping it is just a lack of hormones that is preventing her from carrying to term. He would not comment on what may have caused the previous abortions. I am very interested in the signs you noticed in your mare, my mare had none of these signs. About the only sign of anything we saw was the last time, again at aorund 5 to 5 1/2 months, she seemed a little anemic with a little depression. I had the vet out (that vet is a good cow man) and he said give her Red Cell. She perked up in a day or two. A couple of months later at about 7 months she caught her foot in the fence and I had to get the vet out so I also had him check on her pregancy, she had already lost it.
As you can see, I have every sympathy with you and your mare and would be grateful if you can keep me informed of her progress.
I wish you the best and hope everything works out ok.
Lesley.
Member:
Lesleyb

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003 - 10:05 am:

PS
One of my other mares, showed the same caked on blood type discharge, both times she was pregnant and both times she produced beautiful healthy colts! Thinking about it, so did my other mare and she went on to produce a beautiful filly (albeit 2 months late!). So that very little discharge would appear to be normal, I think.
Lesley.
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003 - 11:14 am:

Thanks Dr. O. Leslie, I will definitely keep you posted as I am on pins/needles for this birth. The mare is my prize team penning mare, and has perfect confirmation, so I have been looking forward to her first baby for a long time. I think I will go ahead and have my vet check her, as he is one of the top equine reproduction specialists in our state. My mare does seem a little sluggish, and depressed though, but her appetite has been great. It has been extremely hot in our area the last month or so, so that could contribute to her behavior.

Michelle
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2003 - 12:34 pm:

Dr. O,
I have an update on the above mare. She is now 8 months pregnant and 2 weeks ago, I had my vet (who is a equine reproduction specialist), run blood work because I wanted to prevent or at least be aware of any issues. Her lab result came back with .94 on progesterone level; my vet said normal is between 4 and 6, so she is extremely low. He sent me home with a bottle of generic regumate, progesterone, and I am giving her 1 1/2 ccs a day. Here are my questions: I read the article on progesterone in this forum, but it only speaks of its use in early pregnancies. I did not see mention of its use during late term...is this a commonly used approach, and if so, was is its success rate? Also, could this have been the cause of my mare's abortion last year at 7 1/2 months? Thanks Dr. O, I would really appreciate your thoughts or others who may have similar experiences.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 7:49 am:

Michelle,
I think my last post was more confusing than helpful, here is a edited posting:

Hmmm there are problems with measuring progesterone concentrations late in pregnancy. The problem is there are several types present and that the tests usually just measure one and there is a great amount of variability. Do you know what type progesterone (there are several different types) was measured?

Low progesterone is unlikely the primary cause of the abortion but if there are really low levels it may indicate something is not right and a thorough exam with an emphasis on ultrasonic evaluation of the placenta is important. The low progesterone would be an effect more than a cause. That said progesterone supplementation following severe septic diseases late in pregnancy have been shown to lower the subsequent abortion rate. Note that the infection has to be treated primarily to prevent abortion and the progesterone supplementation is a secondary treatment.
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 9:20 am:

OK...I have re-read all my material on placentitis, and think I understand the CTUP explanation. I will give my vet a call and see if we can ultrasound in the next few days. But I do have another question: you mentioned progesterone as a secondary treatment; I have been unable to find much on how to treat. Do we provide antibiotics at this stage along with progesterone? It seems this is the approach most describe. What have been your experiences?

Also, to answer your question re: progesterone type. The bottle I have just reads "stem equine -progesterone - compound drug."
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 10:32 am:

Dr. O,
Bad news...I checked my mare this morning and she has started bagging up, she is at 228 days. I have called the vet and he should be here by this afternoon, but I can't help but feel it is too late. Have you seen these situations turn around with a healthy foal with the use of medication or treatment?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 6:32 am:

I have been fortunate and currently have not had the problem with placentitis yet and the diagnosis for this is so new we do not have a good handle on treatment and prognosis. It is not clear that it is too late. If your veterinarian feels there is a problem I would discuss the specific recommendations in the article with your vet and get it started now.
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 10:14 am:

Here is an update:
My vet came out last night (bless his heart to put up with me!); and the mare's udder had gone down considerably. He did a full check-up...measured the placenta, checked the foal from one end to the other, examined the cervix, all through ultrasound and everything is normal. He took more blood for analysis to see if the progesterone levels are back up...and we will just keep checking monthly to ensure this pregnancy goes well. He saw no signs of placentitis, and no signs of a pending abortion. The fetus was active, alive, and the mare is doing well. He said the udder distortions were probably due to edema.

So, this all said: I will keep you posted Dr. O. Thanks for all your postings, and follow-up.
Member:
Westks

Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 10:46 am:

I am soooooooooo relieved to hear this was so feeling for you and your mare and baby :-)
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 2:50 pm:

Thank you so much for the encouraging words! It is going to be a long 3 months.
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2003 - 10:41 am:

Dr. O,
I haven't gotten the lab results back from the past week, but this mare is still having udder development. She gets hard masses within her udder, and the vet thinks it is edema. She is currently at 244 days...is this normal? I can't seem to find much information on edema, so haven't been able to investigate on my own.

Last year when she aborted, she swelled everywhere, not just her udder, and so far, there have been no signs of that...as stated above, the vets last check showed everything at normal, so I am not sure what to expect or do. I would be grateful for any information...thanks.
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Monday, Oct 27, 2003 - 10:44 am:

Also, the 1st lab results indicated the result as "in estrus," based on the .94 scoring. What does this mean?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 12:37 pm:

Not being able to see the development for myself I cannot really judge Michelle. Some mares might begin a little bit of development this early. When mares are in heat they have low levels of progesterone, so in a non-pregnant mare this level would indicate a mare in heat. However at this stage of pregnancy maternal progesterone levels would be comparable to those found at estrus and will not begin to rise until day 300.

But I stress that evaluation here is dependent on if just progesterone is being measured or if the several progestanes present are also being measured and what your units are. To further help speed you along if what they are measuring is just progesterone, levels of around 1 ng/ml or less are OK. These levels will continue to slighltly decrease until day 300 then will rise.
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 2:57 pm:

Dr. O & Others,
This mare continues to be in foal; the results of her 2nd blood test came in, and her progesterone level has risen to 1.6 from .94. My vet seems very happy about this...Dr. O, I specifically asked him what type of progesterone this test analyzes to your question above, and he stated that you could only measure one, and that is progesterone. He also said the 1 1/2 ccs we have been giving her daily were natural progesterone, not synthetic like Regumate. Just wanted you thoughts on that as well...I will continue to keep you posted.

By the way, we turn this mare out at night with the stallion that bred her, along with another mare that is pregnant. They get along fine, but I was just wondering if that was a wise thing to do? Will it affect her hormone level? She does sometimes squeal and squirt urine when we first turn him out...thanks for any advice.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 6:35 pm:

As it is normal during this time for progesterone to decline and if your units are ng / ml the numbers you post are normal and I presume the rise is do to the progesterone you are supplementing orally.

Some of the available ELISA tests that use to be commonly run confused fetally derived progestanes (progesterone like molecules) with the maternal progesterones. It is important here to know what is being measured. If the vet has checked with the lab and knows this is not a problem with the tests run and if the units are the same your horses numbers were normal prior to supplementation.
DrO
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 7:26 pm:

My mum who has bred arabians for over 30 years keeps her mares out with the stallion untill close to foaling. she never had a problem with this.
Katrina
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 9:27 am:

Dr. O,
I have been searching diligently on the internet and this site for information regarding equine edema. Since the mare referenced above aborted last year, and has been bagging up for the last week, I am concerned. This is the same behavior she exhibited last year.

Over the last 2 days, she has become increasingly uncomfortable. Her udder goes up/down during the day, but is visibly larger than I have seen any of my other pregnant mares during this stage. She is now walking stiff-legged and raises her tail when she does walk; this indicates to me that the swelling has made her uncomfortable. I called my vet, and he said while this was not common, it was normal in maiden mares. She is at 265 days gestation.

Here are my questions: Although early edema is not real common, what have been your experiences? She is about 70 - 75 days from foaling, and it seems a little early to me for her udder to fill...it does not feel hot, and is not completely full, but it does sometimes get hard. Her teats do not fill, and she has not been running a temperature (I check it everyday), and there is no vaginal discharge.

How early is too early for a maiden mare in this case? AND, what is causing the stiff-leggedness and her tail to raise? Could the foal already be moving into position? Sorry, for so many questions, but I have found NO information on normal edema in equines.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 6:00 pm:

I think you misunderstand the term edema: it is not a specific term for a condition of the mammary glands. Edema is when ever any tissue swells with serous (blood without the cells) fluid for any cause.

While some mares begin enlarging at this stage, and some mares become uncomfortable the last month or two of gestation, yours is a bit early than most and this in not particularly more common in maidens. The only way to be sure things are alright your vet needs to reexamine your mare. Did you and your vet every get this progesterone issue straightened out?
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 10:15 pm:

Thanks for your quick response Dr. O, but I can't help but feel something is wrong, especially with this mare's history. I think my vet is losing patience with me, as he saw no reason to come out to check this mare because there was no fever, and no discharge.

He still does not understand my question about different types of progesterone, and which one the lab tested for, so I am at a loss. I will just continue to monitor this mare and hope for the best, but I truly do not feel she will carry to full term. Thanks for your help.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 7:46 am:

I think you should try someone who can either discover the problem or make you feel comfortable that things are OK.
DrO
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 10:15 am:

You are right...shouldn't I be able to call the lab and talk with a technician as to what type progesterone was tested? I have the paperwork with a phone number listed on it.

Thanks...
Member:
Mcarna

Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2004 - 10:03 am:

Dr. O/Others:

Well, I am sitting at my kitchen table looking at a beautiful palomino colt out of the above mare. He was born Saturday night at 360 days gestation with no complications. So, I just wanted to end this post with some great news! He is a beautiful colt, and we are so pleased the mare made it through with no problems...of course, she made us wait for 360 days, (I thought I would have a nervous breakdown before she foaled).

So for all you folks out there who have lost foals due to late gestation abortion, it is possible for the mare to have a healthy foal. She did bag up early, and we did have to put her on progesterone for 3 months, but all is well now. We will not breed this mare again, because of her earlier problems, and we finally got what we wanted: a healthy foal! :-)
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 1:59 am:

Oh! Michelle!!!! I just love happy endings! Best wishes for lots of fun and lots of sleep!
Member:
Lesleyb

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 10:12 am:

Michelle,
Thats great news! A palamino as well! That happens to be my favorite color. Good luck with both of them.
Lesley.
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