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| Discussion on 8-9th Month Early Bagging Up | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 8:07 pm: One of my mares is going into her 9th month. Everything so far has been completely normal. Today I noticed one side of her bag was larger than the other side and has a small soft edema right next to it on her belly.I pinched the tit on the larger side and clear liquid came out...now I am horrified because I know early milk production is a bad thing. I was unable to get a hold of my vet, but will call him again tomorrow morning... I am in hopes someone will see my post and reply with some advice. She is up to date on all her vaccinations ect...Phenumabort in her 3rd, 5th, 7th mo and getting close to the date for her shot in the 9th mo. Help!! Thank you |
| Member: liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 8:35 pm: HelloI shouldn't worry too much unless Dr. O says different but my mare bagged up at about 9 to 9 and a half months of gestation, in fact I'd say she was a bit overdue in delivery but she waxed about three weeks before foaling! Almost as if she didn't want to DrOp that foal, and we had a huge storm one night with lighting and all and next morning there she was with a foal at foot. Incidently she did not let me near her of baby for about a week! All the best Liliana 
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 8:41 pm: Sorry about the horrible green bowl but as you can see she was not going to let me in! |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 8:45 pm: Liliana,Thanks for your reply...I can't help but worry though, but hope she does like your mare did and goes to term and has a healthy foal anyway...she has never bagged up, even on just one side before, but then, mares are rather unpredictable, aren't they!! She always begins her bag about 3 wks prior to birth... I'll be going out there tonight before bedtime to check on her. I sure appreciate your reply as now maybe I'll get some sleep tonight. That is a very nice baby you got there...was this your mare's first foal? It can sure make things difficult if you have to wait a week to get your hands on her babies... Good luck with both, and thanks again. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 9:45 pm: Nice baby,Liliana! Great legs, shoulder, back...very athletic looking.I too have had mares bad up way ahead of time and even start dripping fluid several weeks ahead of foaling. As long as they aren't loosing colostrum, I think you're o.k. Sometimes the bad fills up, you start worrying, go out and check, and it's gone down only to be up again in another day or two. I've been around a lot of brood mares, and I love them dearly, but honestly, they are their happiest when they can make you worry! Get a good night's sleep! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 7:00 am: Hello Joanie,there are some non-pregnant mares you can express a little clear fluid out of the teats year round so this finding is not that significant. Neither are your other findings that far off of normal, for more see Equine Reproduction » Pregnancy, Foaling, & Neonatal Care » Pregnant Mare Care and Nutrition. It is true early lactation can be a harbinger of abortion most often do to twins or placentitis. For more on these problems see Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 11:40 am: Thanks to those that replied to my post...Liliana, Sara and Dr.O.I didn't get much sleep and checked on Toy Moon during the night...this morning there is no change in the one side of her bag, the other side, thankfully, is normal. She seems fine. My vet will be here today to check her and I'll post back with what we find out. Dr.O, I did read thru the articles, I pretty much knew everything stated there, but it helps to read up!! Toy Moon has never done this before, but the real reason I am scared is that she did abort about 6 months along a few years ago...for no apparent reason that we could find...it was the next year we discovered her hormones were not quite right and since then i've had her on a generic Regumate for the first 4 mos. of pregnancy... she also never does get a very big bag, but always seems to have plenty of milk...her foals are outstanding...but because her bag has never gotten very big, I am really concerned about this. Anyway, I'll post back with my vet's findings, and once again...thanks!! |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 12:05 pm: Joanie, I just checked out your web site - great looking horses! And, a nice web site.so...you've had a "little" experience along this line, it seems! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you, even though I doubt there's a problem. The only mare I ever had abort looked no different than she ever did; just went into the stall and there was a dead foal still in the sack. Did Toy Moon have any unusual sign when she aborted? I know some mares do. She's a lovely looking mare; hope all is well. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:11 pm: Hi Sara,Thank you so much for visiting my web site...I appreciate your time and the compliments...Toy Moon is also a sweetie-pie...very affectionate. I have been a very fortunate person to have had the opportunity to live my foolish dream...it's been wonderful, and to be blessed with such high quality mares has made it pretty easy getting all the foals sold to great homes. Using a web site to sell is the way to go, I have babies all over the country and Canada...it's a time consuming labor of love...web sites are never done. I guess you also looked at the stallion Toy Moon is in foal to...he's outstanding and I am sooooo excited about this baby. The mare Black Sandra should have also been in foal to Rare News, but she didn't settle the first time, and the second breeding, using shipped semen, was a total bust because Fed-Ex lost the shippment!! They 'found' it a few days later in Memphis, TN and although I had the collecting vet send more, by then it was too late...we bred her anyway, but knew she was on her way out. I was so depressed and angry...I put in a claim to Fed Ex for the collection fee and the air freight (we shipped by air for the 2nd shippment) but Fed Ex would not honor the claim stating it was an "Act of God' that they lost that container....can you beleive that?? Anyway, my vet was here and after looking at Toy Moon decided he didn't want to 'go in' as it might trigger labor, so we drew blood to have her white count checked, I'll get the results later today, just to be sure she isn't harboring an infection, and also we'll check her hormone levels, but that goes to the State Lab, so I won't get those results until Mon or Tues of next week...meantime, my vet told me not to worry. He said the same thing as you did...sometimes a mare will do this, yet go to term. When she aborted in her 6th mo. I did suspect something that morning...no bag or anything, just from the way she looked 'back there'...and sure enough, a few hours later I saw her standing away from the other mares in the pasture, and I knew what happened before I got out to her...she was standing over a dead baby, a colt, palomino just like th Dash for Cash stallion who sired it. Just such a heartbreak. Thanks again, Sara....I'll keep you, Liliana and Dr.O posted. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:15 pm: Sara,I just visited your web site...lovely site and your stallion is gorgeous!! I'd love to see foal photos on your site...bet the babies are just beautiful. Have a nice one!! |
| Member: freshman |
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 11:57 pm: I've always wondered if the edema, bagging up, etc, that is sometimes noticed in normal horse pregnancies is similar to what many pregnant women experience at some points during their term. Humans regularly experience breast enlargement and swelling, although I haven't heard of early milk production, myself. Just something that I've pondered... |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 10:07 am: I have no idea about this in humans, Kristin, but the edema is really not a worry because my mares have always had some edema nearing their foaling dates...I am very concerned about Toy Moon making some milk at this point in her pregnancy...regardless of the fact my vet, Dr.O and some of our members and some of my friends have all said it's not that un common...this mare has never done this before...but, guess maybe there is a first time for everything!!To update a bit...Toy Moon's white count, via her blood draw, came back fine...so I am not dealing with any infection...next week I'll know the results of her hormone check. This morning she is the same, so guess that's good. I'll keep you gals updated...thanks. |
| Member: liliana |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 5:27 pm: Thank you for your comments Joanie and Sara, he is 19 months now and great looking, independent and oh so full of himself he is going to be a handful but I love him just as much, his dad is a sweat his grandpa is the Alfa so like grandpa like ...whoa you son of a gun |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 6:53 pm: Joanie, I don't think you can rule this problem out with normal blood work as neither leukocytosis or fever are commonly reported with this type placentitis. This is a very local problem that when it worsens to the point of remarkable inflammation the cervix opens and abortion follows.On the other hand, I still don't think what you describe so far puts your mare in a increased risk either. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 7:23 pm: Dr.O,Thanks...her temp is normal, forgot to mention that. You kinda spooked me here, Doc...when you say "this type placentis"...what type?? yet, you make me feel Ok by adding that last sentence!! This is now day 3 since that one side of her bag grew....and so far, nothing has changed. So I wait & watch. The blood for checking her hormone levels had to go to UCDavis, so it'll be late next week before we get the results...at least her white count was normal. If you can, would you please elaborate on your post...'local problem'? If you can, please explain more. THANKS!!!! |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 7:31 pm: Dr O,I just looked up Leukocytosis and doubt it has anything to do with Toy Moon's 'condition'... sems it's a rare thing, and mostly in warmer climates...I live in Northern WY. Maybe I'm confused!!! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 8:31 pm: Yes I think you looked up the wrong word Joanie, leukocytosis means an elevated WBC count and is one of the things you look for to indicate infection.The type placentitis we are talking about is detailed in the article on the abortion menu referenced above. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 12:15 pm: Dr.O,I looked up the word leukocytosis because that is what you mentioned in your reply, just before you say "with the type of placentis"...I guess i am not sure of what type placentis you are referring to...I read thru most of the articles, but still cannot find anything exactly like what's going on with Toy Moon. What type of placentis do you think I may be dealing with? And in your opinion, is my vet doing the right thing by NOT palpating her or doing an utltra sound to check the placenta for any thickening or seperation...or a dead foal? This is day 4 and this morning her udder is again exactly the same...no bigger or smaller, and her vulva looks fine inside and out. Thanks Doc and hope I am not being too much of a pain in the neck. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 6:25 pm: Joanie, what you describe in your posts are not clearly indicative on any problem and I cannot examine your mare I cannot pass judgement on your veterinarians decisions. However you cannot rule out placentitis with blood work as I describe above.Are you having trouble finding the articles I reference above that answer the questions you ask about placentitis (and twinning)? You will find them on the menu: Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 9:47 am: Dr.O,I found all the articles and read thru them all....a lot of information to digest. I realize blood work won't tell us wether or not this is a case of placentitis, but the blood results can at least rule out infection and tell us where her hormone levels are... As for my vets judgment on wether or not to palpate or ultra sound Toy Moon, let me put it another way... would you do either of these things to a mare going into her 9th month of gestation? I am going to take a couple of photos of her udder today (I hope) and post them here. Thanks so much. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 12:05 pm: Dr.O,I am attaching a few photos of Toy Moon's udder. Day 5 and no change excpet that the edema has gotten a bit longer in it's shape. Her vulva looks normal. Thanks so much. PS...Well, I couldn't get the photo to attach...I think it may be too big, so I'll edit and then come back to try agaon....ggggrrrr!! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 6:12 pm: Though placentitis is an infection Joanie, it just does not have much effect on the blood work.If you felt strongly there was something wrong and I could not rule it out with certainty on a physical exam and you were willing to accept the very small risk of a rectal tear, a potential complication of any rectal exam, yes we would do one. For more on uploading images see, Help & Information » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 8:52 pm: Well now, Dr.O, that does clear up my confusion about the placentitus....and I wonder why my vet didn't explain that to me. When he gave me the results that her white count was normal, and I said, oh good, then we are not dealing with an infection....he should have explained to me that an infection that causes placentitus will not show up on a blood work....ggggrrr!!Maybe chancing a small rectal tear is worth it if it'll tell us wether or not she actually has placentitus...she won't be bred again after she has this foal...her baby days are done after this, so unless a small tear will complicate a birth, I'd rather know for sure. Now I am going to try again with the photos...got busy today with our stupid cows!! I did read how to upload photos...just couldn't get it to work... Thanks so very much... 
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| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 8:58 pm: Dr.O,That first photo is with the edema. I am now going to attach 2 more of her udder.   The bottom photo shows her normal side and the larger side...it does feel rather 'hard' when I touch it. I have not pinched her teat because i don't want to encourage anymore milk production. Her vulva looks normal and she acts fine. THANK YOU |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 12:12 am: I know you're waiting for Dr. O's response, but I was just looking at your pictures, and I have mares that have looked about like she does and have had no problems. I hope this bodes well for Toy. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 6:06 am: And what were her exact breeding dates Joanie?DrO |
| Member: qh4me |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 10:04 am: Hi Jonie,My mare usually bags up about 3 weeks prior to foaling, however her past baby, she bagged up like yours about the 9 month and she went to full term and delivered a healthy colt. I hope everything turns out fine with your mare. Shawna |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 11:09 am: Sara & Shawna,Thanks for your posts...I guess this early bagging is not as un common as I thought it was, and it's a relief to me that your mares went full term...I'm thinking positive thoughts that Toy will also go full term. Thanks again, gals!! |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 11:25 am: Hi Dr.O,Toy Moon's breeding dates were May 27 & 28, using cooled shipped semen. She had a 36mm folical on the left on the first 'cover'. Bred her again on the 28th...on the 29th we did an ultra sound and she'd ovulated. Started her (generic) progesterone 3cc every 5th day until her 4th mo, then weaned her off it. Toy was always easy to get in foal, but hard to keep her that way. The progesterone program sure seemed to do the trick for her. She resorbed twice in past years, and in 2001 foaled a still born at 6 mos. The foal and sack looked perfectly normal. Also, she has carried her foals, over the years, from 334 - 341 days. Takes about 2 wks bagging up and never has made a big bag, although had plenty of milk. She also has foaled 2 times during the day, and last year out in the pasture at 7am...and that was a very fast birth, the placenta came off the foal during the birth, except that the cord stayed attached (I thought I'd have to cut it, but it did break on it's own) I know this is more info than you asked for...sorry 'bout that!! Thanks so much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 6:12 am: Just as we get you eased up now I am a bit more worried. The dates you post pushes her beginning to bag up in the last of the eight month which is earlier than what I interpreted from your first post. It is suspiciously early Joanie and I sit with my earlier statement that if you feel something wrong, have her checked, and understand your concern a bit better with this happening roughly around day 268.Joanie you might find our articles on the use of progesterone to maintain pregnancy interesting Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant » Early Embryonic Loss & Abortion. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 4:29 pm: Hi Dr.O,Sorry...busy again with our calving...weather here is horrible and we're having to keep the newborn calves warm...mama cows don't like that much!! And we only have another 45 calves to come...booo-hoooo!! Now I am really worried about this...since I read your last post to me. There is no change as of today...Toy Moon just seems to maintain the bag she developed, at least it's not getting any fuller. The edema is almost gone and her vulva still looks normal and there is no discharge at all...she seems fine. Still waiting for UC Davis to send my vet her hormone levels report. I have read so much about all this my head is spinning...yesterday I called my vet about a transrectal ultrasound...he is checking to find out wether or not the ultra sound machine he has is able to be used for that type ultrasound... remember Doc, this is RURAL Wyoming...so don't be too hard on my vet...I just hope he can do the transrectal on Toy Moon so we know exactly what to do. So, I will be back to post any other info we get from UC davis and the ultra sound...meantime, please keep your fingers crossed for me and if you have anything more to add...please do. Thanks so very much. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 5:31 pm: Hi Dr.O,Update on Toy Moon...it's been a week now. Still waiting for her hormone level results from UC Davis... her vulva is still looking normal. The edema is gone now, but the one side of her udder that filled up now feels quite hard to the touch. My vet had me pinch her teat to see how the milk looked...still clear in color, and he said that rules out mastitus. The 'good' side of her udder still looks empty, although if I did pinch that teat, no doubt some clear milk would come from that side too. I am worried that the full side feels so hard...what could that be? I have some Sulphur tablets, so he said I should go ahead and get her started on 12 tablets per day of the sulphur. (she's about 1,100 lbs) Toy Moon is also shedding...it's been very cold here in Northern Wyoming...is she shedding due to stress? She'll be due for her 9th month Phenumabort shot next week. As for the transrectal ultra sound...my vet said his machine isn't equipped for that type ultra sound...is there any other way we can check the viability of the placenta? I'll have my vet here at the end of the week to check her again...unless that one side of her bag gets even harder... I wish I knew what is going on with this...anything else you can tell me would be very much appreciated. Thanks so much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 6:25 pm: Joanie, there are many possibilities but differentiating them requires examination. How to conduct that exam and what the findings mean is explained at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. The ultrasound required is just a standard ultrasound with measurement calipers. I have never seen a machine without them...if (s)he is uncomfortable with the exam and you remain worried perhaps a referral. It is a good sign the teats have gone down.DrO |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 7:26 pm: Joanie, all the horses around here, including mine, are also shedding, and we've a long way to go until spring. I'm hoping the early shedding means an early spring. |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 12:24 am: Hi Joanie,What exactly is the Sulphur for? Good luck with your mare. Judy |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 10:52 am: Sara,Thanks for that...maybe we will have an early Spring... Judy, Sulpha pills are all around antibiotic...I guess it's a precaution. Things are not looking good to me. Thanks for the good luck...I think I need it. Dr.O, I will read the article about the ultra sound. My vet is coming out here later today...he had me start her on Sulpha pills yesterday because I called to tell him the filled side of her udder (I think you mis understood something I wrote in my post...her teats have not gone down) has gotten pretty darn hard. I pinched out some 'milk' yesterday and it was clear, but this morning I pinched it again and it looked to me like the liquid now has that cloudy look to it, and her bag is still hard. Her vulva looks open & red when she lays down, but once up, it looks normal...and still no discharge. I am now worried sick to my stomach... I'll post back after my vet checks her later today. Thank you. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 11:07 am: DR.O,I read thru the articles but didn't see anything on ultra sound to detect placentitus. Are you telling me that a vaginal ultra sound would work to tell us wether or not Toy Moon's placenta is in trouble or not? I know my vet's ultra sound machine measures because he measures follicals ect with it... I am a little confused now because you has said it must be an intrarectal ultra sound....please clarify for me, if you an. Thank you. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 12:32 pm: Hang in there, Joanie. I'd be worried sick, too, so can't blame you there. Personally, I'd still be wondering about mastitis since her teat is hard. However, I'm sure not a vet and have only my own experience to go on. When you "milked" her, you said the fluid was cloudy; was it also kind of stringy? Glad the vet is coming this afternoon. I'll be thinking of you and sending good thoughts your way. Try not to be tense and nervous around ToyMoon. |
| Member: liliana |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 2:12 pm: Joani,I sure hope everything will turn out right for you! We’ll be waiting for your next report! Hey maybe mum is just making sure there will be enough milk to go round!  Best wishes Liliana |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 2:34 pm: Thanks, Liliana & Sara,I'll post back after the vet leaves...he's squeezing me in this afternoon and have no idea when he'll be here. I hope she does have mastitus...we can clear that up and maybe then she'll get back to 'normal'. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't think a case of mastitus would put her placenta in jeopardy. Maybe Dr.O can say something about that too. To be continued.... |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 2:46 pm: PS for Sara,Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about how Toy Moon's milk looked this morning when I pinched her teat...looked cloudy (I may be wrong about that, I'll see what my vet thinks when he does it today) but no, there isn't anything stringy or goopy there. Thanks Sara. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 6:22 pm: Joanie see the article Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant » Placentitis (It is on the menu I reference above, along with other articles of interest). It explains in great detail how this is diagnosed.DrO |
| Member: twhgait |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 6, 2007 - 7:55 pm: Joanie, thinking of you and your mare and hang in there! I just wanted to let you know that all three of mine are shedding too....it's really early - usually they don't start until March sometime! Early spring, here we come?? |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 10:45 am: Dr.O & gals,My vet was here yesterday, it was kind of late so I never got back here to post. He expelled some milk and took it back to his clinic to look at. He called this morning and said she does have Mastitis. He said the milk has (I know the spelling is going to be wrong) Lymphasites and hardly any, or no Nutrafils and that there is infection in there. Just for your information...the one side of her bag is hard, but I can't feel any heat and she really doesn't seem to be in much discomfort (yet) He said to keep her on the 12 per day Sulpha pills (they are trimethoprim with no folic acid such as brewers yeast) for 10 days and to give her some Banamine today. He is trying to get some kind of a poltice for me to apply to her udder. So now, Dr.O, I have more questions and need more advice. When he ran her blood test last week why was her white count normal? (I am still waiting for the hormone levels from UC Davis) Will the Sulpha pills and poltice work well enough? I did a search here for Mastitus, but didn't find a case like Toy Moon's...most were in open or lactating mares. What I would like to know is the very best way to treat Toy Moon's mastitis (I don't care what the cost may be at this point) what drugs to use and what topical to use on her bag. I'm sure being being pregnant makes treating her more difficult as we can't hurt the fetus. I read penicillin is not safe to give pregnant mares? What about IM Naxel? Is there a good anti biotic, other than Sulpha, we can safely use? What topical would you suggest? Does mastitus in a mare approx. 260 days pregnant have an affect on the fetus? Should I still be worried about Placentitus? How does a pregnant mare get mastitus? I have had only one case of mastitis before in my mares, and she was nursing a 10 day old foal at the time... so I assume mastitis in a pregnant mare is different. I need advice, suggestions, recommendations...I need help!! I looked thru the articales but couldn't find anything relating to a Mastitis in a mare 9 mos pregnant. Is there a chance Toy Moon will still go to term and have a healthy foal? I feel sick to my stomach & heart over all this... Thanks so much. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 2:06 pm: Joanie, I had an older mare that developed mastitis just a few weeks before her foal was born. The foal was fine. We had her on antibiotics and applied hot packs..just hot,wet, clothes, to her udder every few hours during the day. It's been so long ago I don't remember what the antibiotic was. I know I was concerned about it affecting the foal, but it didn't. The mare loved the hot packs and would have stood all day for them if we could have held them up that long.Dr. O., for cows they use a topical antibiotic that is in a syringe that you squeeze right into the teat. Would that also work for a horse a be less apt to affect the foal? Or would the antibiotic be absorbed into the blood stream, so it wouldn't matter? |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 2:43 pm: Sara,Thanks for your post. Trouble is, Toy isn't due until April 20th...she always carries between 332 & 338 days, and she's about 255 days right now. She's on the sulfa pills (I use the coffee grinder and add some warm water & vegie oil to draw it up into a large syringe) she'll be on the pills for 10 days. I am also giving her oral banamine once a day for 5 days. My vet ordered some kind of poltice that he swears by. he didn't have any in stock, but this stuff should arrive on Friday...meantime I am doing the warm packs. Wish you could remember what anti biotics you used. Anyway, I am looking foward to Dr.O's response to all this. What a nightmare!! Thanks again, Sara. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 3:42 pm: Joanie, I had a nursing mare come down with mastitis with her colt only 7 days old.. I gave her Banamine only, hot packs as often as i could per day.. She got over it in 3 days with no drugs.. Like Sara's mare.. SHE LOVED THE HOT PACKS..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 4:18 pm: Ann,Thanks for your post too...been busy trying to research mastitis in the pregnant mare...sure can't find much info on this, which is very frustrating. I did have a mare, Statley Morn, get mastitis while she was nursing, several years ago, and some anti biotics, banamine & hot packs cleared her up pretty darn fast also. Seems mastitis in a late term pregnant mare is harder to deal with. I also hope I get the hormone results back from UC davis today or tomorrow because there is a mastitis type that is caused by a hormone imbalance, and since Toy Moon has had hormone problems in the past, this may be the cause of this mastitis she has... I'm certain we'll get her over this, but I am also still worried about placentitus, although you'd think if her placenta was in trouble, that after 14 days of this she would be showing some outward signs, like a discharge from her vulva or something. GGGGRRRR and heavy sigh!! Thanks so much....time to head out for another hot pack treatment!! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 6:49 pm: Joanie, the specific questions about your mare's case will have to addressed to the veterinarian doing the exam and making the diagnosis. The general questions about mastitis would make a good subject for an article, I will see if I can get one together for you in the next few days.DrO |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 7:17 pm: Joanie, the incident with my mare was 14 or so years ago, and you know what happens to your memory when you get older (if you don't, you will some day.) If the name comes to me in the middle of the night I'll get up and post it.I didn't know there was a hormone imbalance mastitis also. Now I'd love to know what type my mare had. We had kept her on Regumate to sustain her last two pregnancies, so I wonder about the hormones now. I always kept her bag clean, stall clean, etc., but I guess you just can't prevent everything. I sure hope there is no placentitus or any other related problems. I think the mastitis itself will clear up pretty readily. Once again, good luck. I'll be reading and learning. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 8:34 pm: Oh, Sara, I do know about memory loss...haha...I'm about at that age!! Don't worry about it, even if you remember, chances are being 14 yrs ago whatever you used may not even be around anymore...you know every year 'they' change meds ect due to research.That hormonial (is that a word?!!) mastitus is new to me also...maybe Dr.O will shed some light on that...as you see in his post to me, he's going to write up an article on Mastitis. Meantime, I must say you gals have made me feel better about all this...and I do hope the Placentus maybe isn't going on at all. Thanks again, Sara. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 7, 2007 - 8:48 pm: Dr.O,Yes, an article about Mastitis would be wonderful...I have been researching it and having a hard time finding any information. Thank you for that and I'm sure we all will look foward to reading it. I trust my vet will get Toy Moon thru this ordeal...I really just wanted to know if there was a better way to treat it other than using the Sulfa pills & banamine. Those darn hormone results from UC Davis will be here tomorrow...I'll post them. Thanks, Dr.O...look foward to your article and anything else you might add. One last thing...in your opinion, since it's been 2 wks now, if Toy has Placentitus would I be seeing some outward signs by now, such as a discharge? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 4:59 pm: Joanie, that article is now up at, Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems During Pregnancy » Mastitis.DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 7:02 pm: Hi Dr.O,Thanks so much for the article....I'm sure a lot of members will find it helpful. I have a couple of questions, if it's Ok... The table with the explanation of milk extraction ect is not in layman's terms, so could you explain what all that means? I saw Toy Moon's milk in the vial after my vet extracted some...it was a cloudy almost white color and it had some stringy looking white 'globby' stuff in it (sorry but that's my best description). If I squeeze some milk out myself, it's a cloudy almost white color still. No discharge at all. So, I assume since it's not a yellow color, that her Mastitis is not fungal? Her bag is not hot to the touch, and in fact, the back area, sorta between her hind legs, feels quite cool. I tried calling my vet, but he's out on call, and I can't remember exactly what he said about the milk sample, but I think he said there were no Lymphocytes and there was some Neutrophils....but I may have that backwards? I looked up both terms, but there are so many variables and nothing in the description of terms was what I could understand (you must have to be a vet to understand these terms)... can you explain what each of these terms are? Do you think the sulfa pills are the best anti biotic to use for her, or would naxel be more benefical? I can't imagine how she got this. I keep everything clean and she does have good conformation (for lack of a better word) of the vulva. Her hormone results got back from UC davis and show that everything is normal for her at this point in her pregnancy. Also...should I milk her out a few times a day, or leave it alone? Thanks you so very much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 8:42 am: Joanie, your questions are answered already in the article and the article represents my best advice. There you will find information in far greater detail than I can repeat here.Concerning not understanding some words or phrases, if you will list them I will try to explain them. You will also find a medical dictionary in the reference section where you can look up the terms without having to wait for my reply. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Thanks Dr.O,I read thru the article again and then asked my vet some questions about the terms used in your article and the chart. The medical dictionary we have here is extensive for sure, it's just that so many terms are explained using words you need to be a vet to know...or maybe it's just me...haha!! Anyway, today is Toy Moon's last day of getting banamine. She still has 4 days on the sulfa pills, and her stool has gotten pretty loose from the sulfa, so I'll be happy to stop it later this week. I believe at that time my vet will extract some more milk and check it under her microscope again. Also applying a poltice, Numatozyne, to her bag (I remember using this stuff to do up legs when I was rubbing horses at the track) And, as of today, I see absolutley no change in her bag or the edema she has on the bottom of her stomach. Her vulva still looks good & normal. I'll be giving her the 9th month Phenumabort shot this week also. Anything else you may want to add would be welcomed. Thank you very much. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:03 pm: UPDATE on Toy Moon...this morning the other side of her bag is filled. I pinched out some milk and it's a milky color. I guess it may still be the mastitis, but she also had just a little bit of discharge from her vulva also. This is very depressing. I am beside myself with worry and wish there was something I could do. She still has 2 days left on the sulfa pills and I continue with the poltice on her bag...but, my hope is fading. Just wanted you all to know this latest update. Thanks. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 3:00 pm: Oh Joanie...what does the vet say? Have you talked with him lately? Is the discharge colored? Thick or thin? Bloody? I do hope things are still o.k. It is possible for them to be.Dr. O..would putting the mare on Regumate help her? Or would you want to if there might be something wrong? |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 4:42 pm: Hi Sara,Yes, I spoke to him this morning and he said unless she got worse, just keep doing what I have been. He is schedueled to be here on Friday to check her and take more milk to look at back at the clinic. I just came in from another look at her...she seems fine. I put more poltice on her udder, gave her a hug and was gald to see her vulva looks fine. That discharge this morning may have been nothing? She was laying down when I went out and she got up right away (feeding time)...what I saw while she was laying down was a little yellowish discharge...but it was almost in a frozen stage (it was only 8 degrees), not too thick and no blood. When she stood up her vulva looked a little 'puffy' (you know how they look as they get closer to foaling time) and seemed unchanged the 2 times I went back out to check her....but this time I was happy to see it looking tighter and nice and clean. I may ask my vet about regumate on Friday, but we did have her hormones checked (CU Davis) and they are normal for a mare in her 9th month, so I am not sure wether or not getting her on a low dose progesterone would help or hinder. I really wish my vet could do an intrarectal ultrasound to check the placenta....I was rather surprised when he said his machine isn't set up for that type ultrasound. The mastitis has gotten worse after 8 days of sulfa pills, 5 days banamine and this stupid poltice... Maybe Dr. O has something to add. I can only hope that you are right, Sara, that all this worry will be forgotten once she delivers a healthy foal in April... Thanks so much for your support, Sara. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 4:49 pm: Dr.O,Question...since my vet can't do the intrarectal ultrasound, at 9 mos pregnant would a vaginal ultrasound make things worse...would it possibly cause contractions or any damage to the fetus? Wouldn't a vaginal US be better than none...at least we could see something? or...would it be safe to palpate Toy Moon to see at least if the fetus/placenta FEELS normal? Also...other than this Numatozyne is there any other poltice or whatever that I can apply on her udder to help the mastitis? Thank you. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 6:01 pm: Dr.O,I have been searching around for another type poultice to use for Toy Moon's mastitis, and read that castor oil clears it up pretty fast... can you please advise me on this? Thank you. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 9:37 pm: Hey, Joanie, I don't have my own foals to worry about this year, so gotta worry about someone's!When I go out for barn check I'll see if I have any of that antibiotic that's in a syringe that you use for cows with mastitis; if I do I'll write down the name so I can post it. I use it for puncture wounds, but am wondering if it can be used on your mare and would help her. You know, I've had mares whose vulva will soften, then firm up again. I think they are having contractions. You know how when you're pg and the baby repositions itself and you get these "twinges?" That's just what I assume is going on. I have no idea how medically correct that theory is! |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 11:47 pm: Hi Joanie,The color of the milk is worrisome coupled with the continued "bagging up". In the 90s we had a no. of mares give birth prematurely over a several year period(they were getting an organophosphate based feed-thru fly control product). The bagging up and change in milk color were changes we saw also. We had very good vets and help from a vet school. They always wanted to rule out placentitis. I think that is one important role of the ultrasound. The mares were put on a combination of drugs to try to get the gestation to progress as long as possible. Some of the survivors were born in the 305 to 315 day range. The youngest required intensive care for 5 weeks. Clearly you want to buy as much time as you can if something is wrong. Just from our experience, I would suggest an evaluation to be certain the foal is alive and well, evaluation of the placenta, and possibly using medication to try to prevent labor IF the foal is alive and well. One of the drugs we used was experimental and I believed it was not approved in the US for the purpose of stopping premature labor. I believe that the mares were put on an anti-prostaglandin (sp?)(Banamine???), an antibiotic (though no significant pathogen was identified in cultures or biopsies before or after breeding or delivery), and Regumate. In some it worked and in others it didn't. Fortunately the problem was identified and corrected. With rare exceptions, we have had no further problem for years. (The mares' cholinesterase was finally measured and was 1/10th low normal, indicating organophosphate poisoning. The feed thru was stopped. The prematurity stopped. None of the common causes of abortion (herpes, etc.) were identified in any specimen over a multi-year period.) Anyway, I can definitely relate to your concern and worry. I can recall feeling almost physically ill when I thought a foal was going to be born too soon. Even though years have passed, your story just brought back a flood of memories. Our thoughts and prayers are with you, your mare, and the unborn foal. Again, it would seem important to find out about the well-being of the foal and the state of the placenta. Is there anyone else in your area who could do this? Dr. O. - would the meds used for mastitis help placentitis if it were present? Have treatments advanced since '98 re: prevention of premature delivery? Judy |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 7:35 am: Neither castor oil nor anything you put on the skin will help with a true mastitis. You are now in the time where the teats may start to enlarge normally so maybe the change you are seeing is normal?DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 6:11 pm: Sara,Again, thank you... I wonder if that anitbiotic you inject into the teats is just a cow thing...we have cows and I know sometimes you can't interchange their meds between the cows & horses. No doubt that stuff would be good for treating puncture wounds....but maybe not a good thing to put into a mare's bag? Maybe Dr.O can give us some feedback on that....and I will run it by my vet. If Toy was closer to foaling time I might think this is normal...but she isn't due til mid April...and she has never showed ANY signs of foaling until she starts to bag up, usually about 2 wks before she is due...unlike my other mares that would start bagging up 4 wks out!!! Anyway...I appreciate your posts, Sara...I'll post back Friday after my vet checks her again. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:58 pm: Judy,Well you sure went thru hell...thankfuuly I'm not dealing with the same thing...in fact, although it's been proven as 100% safe, I will not feed any of my horses a fed thru fly control product, and feel very sad that you went thru all that heartache & expence...loosing foals is just too hard on you, it takes a huge emotional toll. Judy, you can't imagine how worried i am about Toy Moon and her foal...and I wish we had better vets here, and more of them, but in very rural Wyoming...we just don't have them. My vet is the best we have around here... the one thing I feel really needs to be done is some kind of ultrasound or at least palpate her...I need to know what in heck is going on besides the mastitis... and I also wonder...are there ways to prevent premature delivery? I've spent hours searching the web for answers, and still feel in the dark. Judy, as I mentioned to Sara, I'll post back after my vet checks Toy again on Friday...and maybe he will 'go in' to check her foal...I am about to ask Dr.O about the dangers, if any, of doing a vaginal ultrasound or palpateing her...although wouldn't you think since this has been going on for nearly a month now if her pregnancy was in jeopardy she would have aborted by now? Thank you, Judy... |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 12:25 am: Hi Joanie,Toy Moon, the foal, and you will continue in our prayers. I would hope that the month you have gained is indeed a good sign. The most common thing that preceded our premature deliveries was udder development and the presence of white milk. I believe that might occur prior to delivery regardless of cause. If the milk is not white or dripping I would be much encouraged. Because a cause was not immediately apparent, our mares ended up being put on a "cocktail" of drugs. Some were supposed to relax the uterus and prevent contractions, others were antibiotics, NSAIDS, an experimental drug, Regumate. Some of the mares carried long enough to deliver viable foals. Although some had to be in ICU at the teaching hospital, praise the Lord, none were infected. They just needed to ossify their bones and grow. Would these babies have survived without the mares being on these drugs? I don't know. And clearly it didn't work for all the mares. However, at the time we felt we had nothing to lose. The foals were found to be alive in the uterus and the vets elected to try anything possible to save the pregnancies. I'm wondering if the Banamine and the antibiotics you gave for mastitis might help if there was a placentitis. Perhaps Dr. O. would shed light on that. Anyway, know that you remain in our thoughts. Judy |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 9:13 am: Joanie, I'm going to paste a note to my forehead. I forgot to look. I'm sorry. Will check this shortly when I feed this a.m. |
| Member: lzieman |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 11:06 am: Joanie,I don't know about animals, but I do know every human pregnancy is different. I've only had one pregnancy (with twins--so no need to have more), but some friends had terrible morning sickness during the first pregnancy, and the second wasn't nearly so bad. I had one friend who's first child was born prematurely, and the other was right on time. Some develop gestational diabetes one time, but not the other. Who knows what causes the differences, yet they do exist. There is a drug used in humans called Tributalene. I guess it's a steroid and it's used to stop contractions. I don't know if it's used in animals, or under what name. But in any event, I think the fact that this has been going on for this long without the premature birth is a good sign. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 6:47 pm: Joanie we discuss intramammary infusions in the article on mastitis.DrO |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 9:58 am: Joanie, the stuff I have for bovine mastitis that I use on puncture wounds is: Hetacin-K (hetacilin potassium) by Fort Dodge. However, after reading Dr. O's article on mastitis, I learned that horses have a much smaller milk duct and are harder to infuse than cows. Also, I guess it depends on what caused the mastitis. This stuff is really great on puncture wounds though. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 4:51 pm: Sara, Judy, Ann, Lisa & Dr.O,Thank you so very much for putting up with all my worries & dumb questions... Sara, I'm going to find out about that stuff you mentioned (I wrote it down), sounds like a handy bit of stuff to keep around for puncture wounds...just add it to my arsenal of wound meds!! DR.O, I read again about the mammory infusion...thanks for pointing that out to me...sometimes you read something and just don't SEE it all...DUH!! I also have given up on any poultice for her udder...I'm just applying some bag balm to it in hopes it will ease her discomfort. My vet took more milk today to look at and then we'll decide what else to do...may put her on Naxel now as the sulfa hasn't helped much and has made her poop very loose. Her edema has gotten a bit worse and he may have me give her some Lasix for that. But, I'll have to wait and see what shows up in this latest milk sample...it's fairly cloudy looking at this point. I have quit worrying about Placentis...after all this time surely if her placenta was in trouble she'd either have aborted or gotten sick...something would have happened by now? She's at 265 days now. If there is anything more you can add, Dr.O or any of you gals, please do...if not, I'll keep you posted. THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 7:08 pm: Everyone,I want to thank you all for your help & support...Toy Moon has been heavily waxed all day. so placentitis or mastitis seems to be of no matter now...maybe my vet missed twins...he said if he did he'll commit suicide... I am preparing for the worst, I'm sure Toy Moon will abort within the next 48 hrs. This is killing me. I'll let you all know what happens. |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 8:11 pm: Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Let us know what happens.Judy |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 8:33 pm: FINGERS AND TOES CROSSED for a good out come..** the higher power works in mysterious ways..for many reasons.. hang in there.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: corinne |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 9:04 pm: My thoughts and prayers are with you as well. Hopefully everyone will be okay, yourself included. God Bless and do keep in touch! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:26 am: Joanie, it is important to keep this continuous with the rest of the thread so others may learn from your experiences so I am moving it back under the others.DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 11:43 am: Gals & Dr.O,Dr.O... sorry I put my post in the wrong place. Gals...thank you so much for your support & prayers. Toy made it thru last night, but is still waxed up. She shows no other signs of impending birth, but last year she did foal 2 wks early with no signs...so I am keeping a close watch on her and my vet is 'on call' in case she starts labor...if she does have twins in there, it may become a troubled birth, and I sure don't want to loose her too. I told her this morning it would be wonderful if she could be the first mare to bag & wax up at 9 mos. and still make it to term. I don't hold much hope. My vet said there is nothing we can do now...Dr.O, is that right? Thanks again to you all....if anyone has a suggestion, please post it for me....I'll grasp any straw I can find. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 11:48 am: May as well introduce you all to Toy Moon, since you have been going thru this with me for a month now. She is a sweet, affectionate mare.
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| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 5:38 pm: Foals born from mares that suffered from infectious placentitis during pregnancy may be born between days 300 and 320 and yet not show prematurity as there is an accelerated developmental rate in utero with many of these foals;Foals born from mares that suffered from infectious placentitis during pregnancy may be born between days 300 and 320 and yet not show prematurity as there is an accelerated developmental rate in utero with many of these foals Dr.O and the gals, I found the above information while reading articles to help me find some hope for Toy Moon and her baby...also, a friend of mine that ran a Stallion Station and had as many as 50 outside mares per year for many years told me she had a mare foal at 280 days and the foal was fine. So, maybe if Toy can hold on for a while longer I will get my miracle. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 5:45 pm: I would not suggest therapy for a hypothetical twin pregnancy and we remain uncertain of other problems Joanie. At this point I recommend good care for the mare and let's take it easy on the worry, I have my fingers crossed for good luck.DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:37 pm: Dr.O,Thank you for your best wishes...after reading the article about how foal's from 'infected' mares develop faster and that my friend had a mare deliver a healthy foal at 280 days, I am now looking for my miracle. And Doc, believe me, my mares always get the very best of care...they are my heart & soul, my friends and if I had to go without eating to give them what they need, well, then I wouldn't eat. The worst part of all this is that we still do not know exactly what is going on with Toy...so, I will try to take your advice and go easy on the worry...my hair is already grey!!! Thank you |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:10 am: Keeping you and Toy in my positive thoughts, Joanie, good luck!!!
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| Member: frances |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:40 am: She is a beautiful mare with a lovely expession, Joannie. I can see why you love her so much, and I'm hoping to see a pic of Toy + Foal very soon!
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| Member: frances |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:42 am: .. or rather, not SOON exactly, but in due course!! |
| Member: qh4me |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 11:31 am: I am praying for you and Toy and hope that she holds on and delivers you a healthy baby.She is lucky to have you doing everything you can to help her. Maybe she felt you had it easy on the first births, she just wants to keep you on your toes for this one. My fingers and toes are crossed too. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 5:26 pm: Aileen, LL & Shawna,Thanks so much...with all the positive thoughts & well wishes coming from members, Toy Moon has got to co-operate and wait to foal...LL, I knew what you meant...haha...glad I can still muster a chuckle these days!! And thank you, she is a lovley looking mare...extremely well bred and crossing her on this First Down Dash stallion should produce a heck of a nice baby...if I get one. You should see her forearm...biggest I've ever seen on a TB. I looked at your profile, LL...you also have a lovely horse with a big kind eye. Shawna...yep, she's keeping me on my toes all right...but I would much rather be relaxing at this point in time, ya know what I mean!! And....my mares may be lucky to have me...just as I'm sure every horse owned by someone here is lucky to have them...but you know what...I am the lucky one...I've been blessed with wonderful mares that made my foolish dreams come true!! Thanks gals...I'll tell Toy Moon she has a lot of folks pulling for her & baby to be. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 6:55 pm: Joanie, I'd like to add my best wishes for a positive outcome. Toy Moon is lovely...my first horse was a TB so I have, and will always have a huge soft spot in my heart for them. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 7:14 pm: Hi Fran,Thanks so much...we need all the good wishes we can get. So far Toy seems to be hanging on...I keep telling her I know she wants this baby as much as I do...she's a wonderful mama and her babies are outstanding. I looked at your profile, Fran...absolutley love your Sparkles...and you still love the TB!! I've been a TB person since way back when...worked on a TB breeding farm in Ocala,FL...gorgeous area, at least it was back then...and 'rubbed' horses at Belmont Park (NY) for many years. I worked for King Ranch at Belmont...we had a filly finish 2nd behind the mighty Ruffian in the Coaching Club American Oaks...I had the privledge of knowing some of the best TB's in race history, including Secretariat and the Champ that helped my dreams come true...Foolish Pleasure (I was there the day of that ill fated match race between Ruffina & Foolish Pleasure). I still miss the race track after all these years. Oh...my mare Stately Morn has a filly up in Canada that I sold several years ago that is doing Dressage...she's a gorgeous roan. Thanks again, Fran. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 10:17 am: Joanie, it sounds like so far so good with Toy. Both of you hang in there! I,too, look forward to seeing pictures of her with her foal frolicking in the warm spring sunshine.You ladies who talk about your days at the track make me jealous of all the time you go to spend in the barn rows! When I was a teenager, my dad had a friend who had trotters. He took me down to track to see his horses in the barn and soon that is where I spent all my free time during the training season at Del Mar. When the race season started at Santa Anita my dad would pick me up on the street in front of my school and take me to the races. Those were some of the happy days of my life, even though when the principle caught me ditching school I had to copy the entire California motor vehicle code book as punishment! I loved the sights and sounds and smells of the track. The trainers and the grooms were all really nice to me and let me help groom and walk horses. Maria Keys was my favorite. One of the biggest thrills of my life was when her owner let me warm her up and drive her around the track. It was the closest thing to flying without wings you could possibly experience! What a thrill!! I wish I had known more about the horses and their lines back then, or paid more attention to them. I know I associated with some vary famous trotters - the girl I met was from a big farm in Ohio who bred the original Hanovarion someone or rather - to me they were all beautiful and wonderful and the races were beyond exciting! I would loved to have been able to spend time with the TBs also. And, to have met horses like Secretariat...wow! You are so lucky to have had this in your life. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 10:52 am: Hi Sara,Toy is still hangin' in there, and I am thinking now that she had (has) matitis...and that caused her to bag up...I'll be taking another milk sample to my vet so we can check it. I am getting more hopeful that this is going to turn out OK. I looked at your web site...gorgeous horses, the stallions took my breath away. I don't know anything about Trotters, but at least you did get to spend time on the race track...and Del Mar is wonderful. I can still smell the shed row and feel the atmosphere...the backside of Belmont Park is something every horse lover should get to experience. It's a world unto itself, and I still miss it. Sara, you do know there is Arabian Horse racing? As for the Tb's...we're on the Road to the Triple Crown now, and following the 3 yr olds is very exciting. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 1:11 pm: Up date on Toy Moon...she's now 273 days. Not much new with my situation. Her last milk sample showed she is over the mastitis. Her hormones are normal. Her white count normal. The edema is almost gone. She is still fully bagged up, waxes, drips milk, waxes again. Her vulva looks normal, except when she lays down, then it looks as if her cervix is coming out of her!! One slight change is that she does not look as 'wide' as she did just day before yesterday. her belly is still as low as it's been, but the width of it seems less...my vet stopped by this morning just to take a look at her and he noticed it too...we think maybe when she rolled yesterday it repositioned the foal, If in fact it had itself in a bad position to begin with...surely a possibility? At amy rate, she is hanging in there, and I hope she'll go at least another 30 days. We stopped meds as her mastitis cleared up & edema is almost gone... sure hope everyone else's mares are coming along OK.. I do have a question about testing milk for calcium, but will post that separate from this. Any new updates besides mine? Thanks everyone...Dr.O, chime in if you can add anything for me. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 1:40 pm: Dr.O,Straight question for you, Doc...Toy Moon is still hanging in there. Vulva normal, drips milk, waxes, drips, waxes. Her mastitis is cleared up. Her edema is almost gone and after rolling the other day her belly doesn't look as wide as it did...still DrOpped, and normal looking for 275 days pregnant, but for some reason she just doesn't look as wide if you look from the front or back at her. Anyway...I am going to start testing her milk for calcium levels using test strips, can't hurt...but, and here is my question... can my vet do a rectal palpation to check on the foal and/or placenta. I would at least like to know if she is carrying a live foal at this point...I doubt he could feel twins, if that's the case (hope not)...but he feels if he puts his arm in her it may trigger labor...since he cannot do a rectal u/s, can he palpate her safely at this point? Also, sorry, just thought about this...can you think of a reason why his ultra sound machine cannot do a rectal u/s? Do you need a special type probe? Thank you very much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 7:08 pm: Joanie, yes a rectal could be done to see if the foal is moving around. Usually balloting the fetus will get a response from the foal. Most veterinarians have ultrasound machines that are designed for transrectal ultrasound but there are machines that are not designed for it.DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 7:33 pm: DR.O,Thanks, as always...and, as always, I'm going to take this one step further...have you done a rectal palpate on a mare as far along as 275 days? Is it a common thing for that to trigger labor...or not? I hate sounding stupid or something, but this type of situation is a first for me. Just fed Toy Moon...drip, drip, drip and the color is white...gggrrr!!! I'll wait for your next reply before I call my vet and ask for the palpate on Toy. Thanks again, and I do apologize for asking sooooo many stupid questions!! |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 11:37 pm: Is it possible that she has twins and one is in trouble and the other is still ok? Could that cause early dripping?Judy |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 6:18 am: Yes you can palpate them at this stage though I would not if the mare fights being palpated.DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 2:25 pm: Judy,That is certainly a possibility, and sure hope that is not the case. I wish my vet had an ultra sound machine that would do an intra-rectal u/s, but I am out of luck there...best we could do is palpate, and not sure we'd get that done successfully, or if my vet could palpate her, not sure if he could feel twins if that's what she's carrying. I am frustrated that we can't figure out what is going on with her. Thanks |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 2:34 pm: Dr.O,Thanks. I appreciate your reply. Toy Moon can be a bit of a problem when palpated...in fact we usually give her just a bit of tranq when she's palpated and for an u/s. She will clamp down and tighten up. So, maybe I should not push this with my vet...I don't want to get her stressed at this point. Today is 276 days. Her vulva is still normal, She seems fine. Last evening she was streaming milk from one teat. I believe her belly doesn't look at wide as it was, and in fact, maybe not quite as low as it was. Wether or not that means anything, I don't know. I also believe her bag is a little bit smaller (that may be because the mastitis is cleared up?) but it's still full of milk, which is white in color. I don't know what in heck is going on and would give a lot to know. What a mess. Thanks. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:13 am: Dr.O and all the gals that gave me support and best wishes for Toy Moon...she aborted twins last night around 2am.She cleaned up and appears fine except that she's confused. I cleaned up under the shed where she aborted in hopes of removing their scent. I hugged her and had a cry, but the pain will linger for a while. I will bury the twins today. Thanks to all of you for your support & advice. |
| Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:19 am: OH DARN.. I was so hoping that all would be well and she would go to term.. you followed your gut feelings and explored all that you could ..Take heart that you did all you could for her and her twins.. I am glad that she is ok....On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
| Member: tuckern |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:39 am: Awwwww....I'm so sorry to hear that Joanie. I've been following your thread and sending positive thoughts to you and Toy Moon.It's good to hear though that Toy Moon is doing okay. My thoughts are still with you. Nicole |
| Member: paardex |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:41 am: I am glad Toy Moon is okay, in cases like this you can not do more then you have done. Sorry for your loss I know how it feels and am sure you will need time but try and have a rest before anything else.Jos |
| Member: twhgait |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 10:45 am: Joanie, I'm so sorry! I've been following her progress and was really thinking she'd pull this off. I'm glad she's OK and I hope you are too. |
| Member: kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:06 am: I have been following your post. I am so sorry to hear the outcome. I was so hoping it would have turned out differently. Glad to hear also that Toy moon is ok. Take care of yourself in this sad time. Big hugs |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:10 am: I'm so sorry Joanie! It sounded like things were getting "normalized" for lack of a better word...you did your best, if only they could talk... Thank goodness your beautiful mare is ok.(((Hugs))) to you Joanie. |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:48 am: Oh no, Joanie! I'm so sorry, but so glad Toy is o.k. Poor thing! Did someone suggest twins with one in trouble? I wonder if that was the problem? Does she have a history of twins in her background? Her dam or grand dam? I think foaling full term twins would have been difficult for her, so I guess nature knows best, but still....I know this has been an extremely frustrating experience for you. It's at these times I'm sure, like me, you wish you lived near a good vet school or clinic with all the modern technology readily available. You did all you could. Take a day off and relax if you can. Have a drink, get a manicure, read a book...or maybe just spend time with Toy grooming her etc. |
| Member: canter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:48 am: Joanie, I am so sorry to hear of this news. You did what you could and it is obvious in your posts that you are a dedicated and loving owner. Take comfort in knowing that Toy Moon is OK.Best wishes, Fran |
| Member: 153337 |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:59 am: Like Katrina I have been following your post, and am sorry about the outcome. I'm glad she is ok, she's a beautiful girl. You did everything you could, I hope you and Toy Moon can put this behind you quickly.Deepest Sympathies, Amber |
| Member: jockyrdg |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 1:53 pm: Hi Joanie; condolences on your loss. It is a sad time after waiting and anticipating almost a year. If it is any comfort, even if she had gone to term, twins are tough to survive. I worked for years in a Equine Neonatal Intensive Care unit with one of the foremost neonatal vets. Each year there were always twins and I think in the 8 years I did it only one complete set survived. Of the remaining sets that had a single survival the hospital bill usually ran over $10,000. Mares as well as babies were lost to twinning. You are fortunate to have mom still with you.There was no agreed upon standard proceedure for helping the mares understand. Dr. Vaala liked to leave the babies that didn't make it in the stall long enough for the mom to lose interest and walk away. Other vets would remove the foal asap. |
| Member: frances |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 2:40 pm: Oh Joanie, how sad. I somehow didn't expect it to turn out like this, and you'd worked so hard for a good outcome.I do hope Toy has accepted her loss - it's sometimes difficult to tell what animals are feeling, but I think they come to terms with death more easily than we do. Take care of yourself; you must be exhausted from all the worry. Hugs to you and your lovely mare. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 4:02 pm: My condolences Joanie. Take heart in the fact that twins are something you cannot do anything about this late in the game even if you had a diagnosis. Also twins cause problems at birth sometimes so having a post parturient healthy mare is a plus. It certainly explains the earlier bagging up.I am going to move the other discussion on top of this that others can see the posts from beginning to end so others might be stimulated to get those early ultrasounds done to prevent this problem. DrO |
| Member: erika |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:32 pm: Oh Joanie, we were all so hoping for a better outcome! So sorry, I'm sure Toy Moon would be a lovely mother. Hope things go better for her next time. My heart goes out to all of you. |
| Member: liliana |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 8:32 pm: Oh Joanie,I am so sorry for you both a big kiss and a hug Liliana 
|
| Member: christel |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 9:52 pm: So sorry Joanie. I have been following this post also- I commend you for being on top of this the whole time.Also,thank you so much for sharing, it has sure made me more observant with my mares. This has been a very interesting thread. I am so happy Toy is going to be ok- she is such a cutie. Chris |
| Member: judyhens |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:43 pm: So sorry Joanie. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Toy Moon.Judy |
| Member: jjet |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 11:27 pm: Joanie, heartbreaking for you...you are such a wonderful caretaker for your horse. But thank goodness Toy Moon, at least, is OK. Hope you are able to get through the worst of this pain soon. |
| Member: qh4me |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 1:24 pm: Joanie,I am so sorry for your loss. It is so frustrating to have waited for so long and have such an outcome. Thankfully Toy Moon is doing well and she is healthy after all of this. |
| Member: oscarvv |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 7:55 am: I am sorry - that is very sad.I hve to say, I love the photo of Toy Moon's head - she looks like a lovely girl...... |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:38 pm: To all of you....What a great bunch of people you all are...I so appreciated all the advice, suggestions and help I got, and especially the support... a special thanks to Dr.O who was very patient with me with my silly questions. My vet feels almost as bad as I do about all this...he still cannot believe he missed seeing twins via her u/s....what an easy fix that would have been. We did suspect that was what was going on with her, up until he diagnosed the Mastitis, then we began to have hope Toy Moon would hang on...but, when she went down in labor that night, I just knew she was going to abort two foals...I just knew. Thankfully it all went pretty fast and no complications...I nearly lost Stately Morn last year after she gave birth to an awesome colt...my vet was with me for 3 days helping her...she ruptured and it took great effort to stop the bleeding ect...she pulled thru, and it did take her about 2 months to get back to being herself. I could not deal with loosing a mare via birthing. Toy is fine, she was a bit confused the next day about not finding a foal to love, but by the day after, she was back to normal... I don't know what I will do now...which is a long story I won't bore any of you with....but for now, the mares are out being horses along side our our geldings that I turned in with them yesterday. Thanks again to all of you...it's going to take me a while to 'get over' this, I am still getting 'weepy' about it and it sure will be hard once I start seeing other folks foals out in the fields around here. Horses...they get into your blood, your heart, your soul. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 6:25 pm: Joanie, by looking at the history we may be able to figure out how the missed twins happened. Can you give us a brief map of the examinations during the breeding:this would include the date and the findings. Include the dates of estrus, breeding, and the date(s) of the US preg diagnosis. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 1:46 pm: Dr.O,Ok...but I know what happened...we never did another u/s after the first one that pronounced Toy Moon in foal. But here ya go: Last year her actual 'due date' was May 5th. At 6am on April 21 she was in the pasture, layed down and quickly gave birth to a healthy filly. Her placenta DrOpped while she was still laying down. Once up, I moved her & baby to my foaling stall and all was normal. She came into her foal heat 10 days later. Foal heat lasted about 5 days. She was cultured & 'flushed' on May 8th. Culture was normal. May 22...u/s showed nothing. May 24th, u/s showed 27mm on the right. Toy Moon developes follicals fast, then goes out fast... May 26th u/s showed 36mm on the left. Bred May 27, 28th (AI) May 29th, u/s -- ovulated. began her progesterone program, as her hormone levles in the past showed low P and she did loose a pregnancy because of that. Once I started using the P she maintained and went to term. She would get 3cc of progesterone very 5 days until her 4th month. Her hormone levels would be checked several times during the first 4 months, and again during each trimester. All remained normal, including the last check when she began bagging up back in late Janurary. May 16 at about 18 days, she had u/s and pronounced in foal. I usually have the mares checked again at about 40 days, but since we knew she was pregnant, and it was so late in the breeding season, and I was very busy helping my husband farm, I did not have the 40 day u/s done...just figured she was still in foal, everything was normal, and even if I did have the 40 day u/s done and she had already lost it, I would not have bred her back again so late. Needless to say, if we has done the 40 day u/s we would have seen twins, but twins never entered my mind...no history of it at all for Toy or the mares within her pedigree. So, there you have it...either way, I would have lost the pregnancy...if we'd done the 40 day u/s sound and saw twins, I would have had the pregnancy terminated, it just would have saved me from looking foward to this baby until her 9th month, when all was lost. Dr.O, I will not be breeding Toy Moon back again. I promised her this would be her last baby because she does have arthritus in her hocks (she was badly injured in a starting gate accident at Santa Anita when she was a 2 yr old in training). She's Ok unless she's carrying a foal, so I knew this would be her last...I will not do anything with my mares that will cause them discomfort or pain just to have a foal...she's 15 yrs old now, so I guess that's good enough. Look foward to your reply, Doc...thank you so much for everything. |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 1:49 pm: Dr.O,Just so you know...the mares are always up to date on all vaccinations, including the Phenumabort shots at 3 (optional, but I give it anyway),5,7,9th months. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 6:28 am: Thanks Joanie,Do to your accurate record keeping there is a lot in your post to work with that may help you and others and gives me a chance to bang my head against some equine medicine traditions: The routine culturing of mares is probably a waste of time and money for more see Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility » Uterine Culture and Cytology And let me correct the notion that mares experience early embryotic loss from low progesterone, for more see » Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Problems During Pregnancy » Early Embryonic Loss & Abortion. I notice you quit breeding when the US had showed she ovulated do you remember if this was one or two follicles having ovulated? DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 1:19 pm: Thank you, Dr.O,I do hope my experience can help others... I read thru the articles, but unfortunatley, I can't tell you wether Toy Moon had one or two follicles ovulated...my vet never said. All he said was that she had ovulated...then we did the u/s at 18 days and she was in foal. Maybe giving her the progesterone was not necessary, but blood draws did note it was low at the time, as it was the year before when I used the Prog. the first 4 mos of her pregnancy. I did suggest to my vet when he did the culture to do a Cytology, but he pretty much said it was not necessary since the culture itself was negative for infection. All this really makes me question wether or not things were done right. But, second guessing, for me at this point will only drive me crazy. Yet I will be interested in anything else you have to add on this subject, and surely if it'll help other mare owners. I can ask my vet about the follicals, Doc...maybe he wrote that down in his notes, just failed to mention it to me figuring as long as she comes up pregnant, it wouldn't matter. If he has that in his notes, I'll post back for you. Thanks again. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2007 - 6:34 am: The article referenced above discusses the finding of low blood progesterone Joanie.Once a follicle goes over 22-25 mm it usually is going on to ovulate and so a double ovulation seemed likely from the exams described above. My best guess is that you had a very late ovulation following the noted ovulation, perhaps even after going out of heat but while viable sperm was still in the reproductive tract. Because of the difference in the ovulation dates one was very small at the time of US and not picked up. For those reading it is important to note whenever there is more than one follicle over 22 mm you should check carefully for the presence of twins in the future. DrO |
| Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Thanks, Dr.O,I hope others may benefit from all this...for me, my breeding days are over. I retired Toy Moon....I don't want her to carry another foal with her arthritis, she does fine until she gets big, then I can see she is in pain....this was going to be her last foal anyway. What you described in your post is probably what happened...but I decided not to question my vet because it's over and done now and he is also a friend...he feels bad enough, and I won't help him feel worse. I am going to miss breeding and the foals, but I am proud of what I have accomplished, I brought some fine horses into the world and everyone has great homes & owners...the mares are very happy just being horses now...and I will cherish my memories. Thanks so much. |
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