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  Discussion on Watery discharge returns after treatment
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Member:
Jerre

Posted on Friday, Jan 24, 2003 - 12:49 am:

My 3 y/o Percheron/TB mare has had recurring low-grade diarrhea with sometimes copious watery discharge. The stool is formed, but smaller and greener than normal. My vet ways she is not metabolizing water out of the lower colon. Her tail is a mess with liquid and fibrous hay shreds. Her hay is orchard grass.

She has responded well to metronidazole, but symptoms return. Course 1 was 12 days, 20 tabs/2x day. Symptoms returned within 24 hours of ending meds.

Course 2 was 14 days, 20 tabs /3x day. Both times supplemented with 1/3 to 1/2/# probios over the course of the day. Symptoms returned 4 days after ending meds.

She has had no change of management and seems otherwise healthy. Good energy and appetite and disposition. The symptoms came on in the fall, with no obvious trigger. Stool is normal within 48 hours of beginning metronidazole.

Any thoughts on cause or treatment would be appreciated.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 24, 2003 - 10:57 am:

Jerre,
Chronic diarrhea in an other wise healthy horse can be annoying and difficult problem. The problem is that this may be just the way this horses bowels work and you are fighting that. However the antibiotic responsiveness suggests you have a microbe-related problem that possibly does not directly infect the tissues of the horse. Perhaps the organism lives in the bowel but produces some osmotically active metabolites that keep water in the bowel. I presume a CBC and complete blood profile are normal and that fecal floats, direct smears, cultures for salmonella, etc... If not they should be to continue looking for the cause, see article for more on this.

First I would try a longer course of metronidazole, perhaps a month, then try weaning off the drug rather than going cold turkey. The idea is to have more normal flora, take the place of the offending organism, assuming my hypothesis is right. If this is unsuccessful you might try a fecal transplant, see the article for a description of this and other diagnostic and treatment options. I have updated the article in response to your questions.
DrO
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2003 - 2:18 pm:

I'm happy to report that in the past month my mare's stool has become nearly normal -- so much so that if I wasn't hyper-aware because of her history I don't think it would be noticeable. Now I see maybe one or two softer piles a week, and every 10 days or two weeks a very small wetting of the tail.

I switched probiotics to Conklin's Fastrack and feed 4 oz. morning and night with just enough grain to carry the supplement. Her other feed is orchard grass hay.

My thinking is that it took about a week for the normal flora to establish after the second course of metronidazole, and symptoms gradually decreased.

She is now on several hours of grazing a day as the grass is coming in here in Washington state! I'm curious to see next fall if this recurs and if so, if I can tie it to something seasonal -- daylight, grazing, etc.

A little side benefit is, she's become extremely mellow about having a bucket of water lifted up to her dock as her tail got washed! Also, her tail has grown so it drags the ground -- fertilized :-)?

My vet was poised to try a treatment called BioSponge, which is a supplement designed to draw toxins from the colon. It's administered by tube for the first treatment, and then fed out over a couple of weeks. If this recurs next fall, we may try that to see if we get a quicker resolution.

Thanks for the help.
Jerre
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 25, 2003 - 6:32 am:

Wonderful Jerry,
Currently none of the benefits listed for probiotics on the Fasttrac site are really known in horses, Jerre. If you would like more information on this see, » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products. I think it is just as likely that is was just time for things to straighten out and this happened to be the last thing done differently. As stated in the article on diarrhea, I have good luck with these doing nothing at all but making sure the diet is suitable and giving them a little time.
DrO
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 11:02 am:

An update on my mare: She had improved greatly, but still had occasional symptoms -- until she foaled (which was a total surprise, she was not known to have been bred).

Anyway, by coincidence or somehow related to the pregnancy, there hasn't been the slightest hint of diarrhea since she foaled six weeks ago. It commenced in what turns out to be the 7th or 8th month of pregnancy. So, if you have undiagnosed diarrhea in a mare -- palpate?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 9:53 pm:

Diarrhea from pregnancy causes is unknown to me and I think the improvement following foaling coincidental. On the other hand....I would have to breed her right back just to find out if it happened again.
DrO
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:33 pm:

Uh, no thanks! Although I'm having great fun with this foal, it was never my plan!! We'll have to chalk it up to one of life's mysteries.

Jerre
New Member:
Maybelle

Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2003 - 7:07 pm:

I have an eight month old filly who has had gas and watery fecal discharge which runs down her leg and covers her tail regularly since she was weaned She does have normally formed bowel movements otherwise. She has a very large belly that fills with gas as the day goes on from eating I presume. Other symptoms include eating mineral blocks at an unusual rate, sweating on occasion, and what my vet describes as an unthrifty coat and build. She has been wormed regularly, checked for the presence of sand in her stools, and had blood work done with no conclusive results. I have increased her grain intake at my vets request and she does seem to have more energy and weight gain but she still does not look healthy and she continues to have gas and spew liquid. Have you any ideas what this could be? My vet is stumped and I need to find and answer so I can help her . Thank-you
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2003 - 10:55 pm:

did you do a double dose for several days to clear your filly of possible tape worms? You can also get the new ivermectrin gold or ivermectrin plus , either has another chemical that kills tape worms. what about the hay she is being fed? Have you tried pobios or yogurt to give her some digestive bacteria? I have found that this really helps, she may just need some good bacteria in her gut to improve her digestion. Also try some soy or corn oil on her grain if she is thin. It will really help her pick up weight, is cheap if you get it at sams or costco, and wont make her hyper like grain. I use tubes of probios for all of my horses that are being trailered long distances. It really does make a big difference. The gas is what makes me think she does not have good gut digestive bugs. Most of my colts and pg mares will chew the heck out of those horse blocks, so that is probably telling you that some important mineral or vitamin, etc, might also be missing from her diet. i would try the probios first. Get plain yogurt and see if she will eat it on her grain, if not get a few tubes of probios from valley vet or jeffers, etc, and try giving her one whole tube the first day and half a tube the next day, then a tube or something once a week for a few weeks and see if that doesnt clear up the problem. there is obviously a digestive problem.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003 - 5:13 pm:

Hello Cheryl,
We have an article on chronic diarrhea that describes a lot of the causes and how to go about differentiating them see...Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO
Member:
Maybelle

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003 - 8:25 pm:

Christine, thank-you for your response. I will try your suggestions. I didnt mention that my foal is a shetland although I would think the recommendation would be the same as for a horse.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2003 - 11:01 am:

Though I know Christine means well and her suggestions good for certain cases, I think trying random suggestions is the wrong approach Cheryl. Many of these type problems are self limiting and eventually correct themselves but it is crucial that you review your management and you attempt to determin if there are possible causes that may worsen without specific treatment.
DrO
Member:
Maybelle

Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 1:49 pm:

DrO Would you suggest that my vet do further testing? He said he could do more bloodwork but what would that show that didnt surface the last time? Her diarrhea has gotten worse since she has been placed in a paddock with leaves on the ground of which she has been eating. If this is related to roughage, is there a special diet that she could go on with a lower level of fiber. I did read the articles on diarrhea but they didnt seem to relate to my foal. The only thing that seemed to be a possibility was malabsorbtion from what I could see. What do you think? Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 29, 2003 - 8:09 am:

What are you using to rule out the listed diseases in Overview of Diarrhea? The article lists a minimum database of tests, based on the form of diarrhea you have, from which you can rule in and out many of the listed diseases. We suggest you have these done.

Laboratory tests are not static they change and often it is the direction of change that is more informative than the absolute values. But the decision to repeat should be based on a physical exam that results in a list of possiblilities that then are supported or ruled out by the lab findings.

Yes I think eating leaves may be a indication of too little forage in the foals diet. Forage and fiber is essential to a healthy digestive tract I would not be trying to reduce the fiber in this foals diet but trying to establish as normal and regular diet as possible, see » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Feeding the Growing Foal, Nutrition for Young Horses for more on this.
DrO
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 2004 - 1:14 pm:

Two years later (and, may I say thank you for how much I've learned from this site?):

Intermittent diarrhea symptoms have been showing up for two weeks, (about the same timing as when I first posted}. I haven't treated it, but have been monitoring. She's healthy, energetic and holding her weight well.

We had diarrhea in Years 1 and 3, and none in 2.

Factors I'm considering are;

Feed:
Year 1 = orchard grass hay, minimal grain, supplement.
Year 2 = local hay, complete alfalfa based concentrate, supplement. (She was boarded in winter of Year 2)
Year 3 = orchard grass hay, 12% protein beet-pulp based feed.

Weather:
Similar in all years, with heavy frosts at approximately the time of onset.

Daylight:
24/7 pasture board years 1 and 3 with no artificial light. Stabled year 2 (with lights for several hours in the evening.) We're in W. WA, where it's about 9 hours of daylight now and will be 8 1/2 by solstice. I have no lights in my barn and it is not an option.

Hormonal:
Year 1: Pregnant
Year 2: Weaning
Year 3: open -- but in season right now.

Medical:
Up to date always on immunizations and deworming. Negative fecals since I started testing (18 months.) Dewormed with Equimax (for tapes) two weeks before first symptoms.

I plan first to start Fasttrack, which I had discontinued last year. Since she responded to metronidazole, I will consider that if symptoms worsen.

Any other thoughts gratefully considered,

Thanks, Jerre


Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 8:36 am:

My first thought Jerre is that as you begin adding-to and changing the horse's diet you may just perpetuate the problem. 2 weeks of on and off diarrhea may not be enough to start changes: it could be the bowel is trying to adjust to changes at this time. How bad is it right now?

My second thought is that now is the time to try and id the problem. When a problem is acute is often the best time to identify it. After it becomes chronic the cause can fade into the background. This would be a good time to reread the article on Diarrhea overview and again try to id the problem: it may come up negative again but if you find it hard to get under control you will be glad you started at the beginning and approached this in a logical stepwise manner.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 10:34 am:

Jerre-I have one mare that is so overly sensitive to any change in diet it is amazing. If I feed her anything other than alfalfa or pasture she gets diarrea immediately. I can't add anything to her feed, even supplements, without it affecting her.Any change in her diet, even adding probiotics, vitamins, etc. must be done very gradually - much slower than i would normally do for any of our other horses. Maybe your horse is just one of these hypersensitive ones?
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 2:22 pm:

Thanks Dr. O and Sara,

Dr. O, I appreciate the reminder on testing. I will do that first before trying hit and miss changes.

Right now, the symptoms are so mild and sporadic that I'll just keep note of them. I notice a slight wetting of the tail every 3 days or so. Sara, nothing in her feed has changed in 10 months, and in the past, she's proven quite tolerant of feed changes.

The factors in common are: Time of year, limited turnout, little or no grazing, reduced exercise and short daylight hours. I'm very curious to determine if this is indeed seasonal and what factors affect it.

Unfortunately, there's not a lot I can do about it, since it's dark when I leave for work and dark when I get home. We get 90-100 inches of rain a year and the horses must stay in a gravel paddock during the wet months or my small field would be hock-deep in mud and never recover for summer.

I'm making a point of hand grazing during the weekends and getting her out for exercise on line even if I can't manage a ride.

Happily, she remains alert and energetic, shiny coat, good appetite and no weight loss.

Jerre
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 2:52 pm:

I'll be real interested to see what tests reveal, if anything. Maybe she's just upset that she's not turned out as much?

If a horse can possibly do anything to confound us, they will!
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 11:46 pm:

OK, since I've tracked this for so long, I thought I'd update the record (as if anyone but me is keeping track of my horse's digestive tract!)

There have been no feed changes in the past year. Still free choice orchard grass hay and about 5 pounds daily of beet-pulp based mixed feed, amended for our area.

This year, 6 weeks after deworming (so I don't think that was a factor), we had about two weeks of very mild diarrhea -- just enough to leave some hay shreds on the tail every few days. Piles were still formed with soft apples.

It was a very hard prolonged freeze with paddock confinement and short daylight hours (nearly solstice-- about 8 1/2 hours in NW Wash.) I'm willing to chalk this up as a seasonal reaction to limited exercise, short daylight hours and maybe temperature.

It's now milder and symptoms have disappeared. Although my horses are still confined to a 40x100 paddock, the footing is more inviting without the hard freeze, and they get out into larger grassier areas several times a week for a few hours.

Jerre
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 7:07 am:

Hello Jerre,
just for interest I went to see how many folks have viewed this discussion in the last quarter and you have had hundreds of people read your story, besides me so keep up the good work. If I understand you right, you have not had diarrhea except for 2 weeks and this sounds pretty good.
DrO
New Member:
vannks

Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2014 - 3:46 am:

I have same (gassy, watery, intermittent diarrhea)issues in two (of 11) horses. One is a 7 y/o mare, the other a 15 y/o gelding. Both are healthy Thoroughbreds. I switched from Timothy hay to Orchard due to a long season of very bad Timothy. I would say it is the Orchard hay that is the problem because it is an extremely laxative hay and I've noticed it is often full of different weeds, foxtails and lots of dust. Both horses get probiotics and never had these problems prior to Orchard hay being their main forage.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 6, 2014 - 8:50 pm:

Welcome Victoria,
First let me comment that orchard grass hay is not a "laxative hay". I am unsure as to whether you have a question or just making a comment but millions of horses, including mine from time to time, are on orchard grass hay without problems. The weeds may be a problem but that is hard to say with any certainty.
DrO
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