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  Discussion on 12 month old filly with large knees
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Member:
Lorimich

Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 7:47 pm:

Hi we have a filly who's knees have been swollen on the upper half on the inside of both front knees. We have been working with buckeye and have sent them hay analysis. My biggest concern was the alfalfa hay I'm feeding her has a cal/phosp. ratio that is very high cal.1.44 and phos. .28. Back in December buckeye put everything in the computer and said of all my hays this was the best. What can I do to get it more blanced and could the high calcium cause this problem. She is not overweight and now her rib are easly felt and when she sheds all her hair you will be able to see them. She is 13.3 today and weighs about 645 lbs. I don't want to stunt her growth but I want her sound. She has no heat in her knees and is not lame at all. Ant suggestions. I read the articles and according to them she should be getting more grain. She geets 8 lbs. of the alfalfa hay, 3.5 lbs. Alfa Gro n win and I am reducing it to 2.5 lbs with 1 lb of oats per day split in to two feedings. Should she stay on this hay or mix it with grass hay and how much grain. She also gets a mineral block free choice and a salt selinum block free choice. She is also small boned. I have a yearling gelding who gets more grain plus what she is getting and he is fine.

Thank you
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2003 - 4:26 am:

Lori, though examples of average amounts of feed are given in the articles, grain is fed to maintain condition after a horse's forage needs are met. If your foals condition is good, I am not sure more grain is indicated.

How old is she Lori and how is her conformation? In order to evaluate your calcium / phosphorous we need the cal/phos content of all her feeds and whether she is on pasture and how long each day. You cannot look at the alfalfa alone.

Concerning the swelling it sounds like the physis but for a better handle on the problem you may need to have these looked at and radiographed. The article associated with this forum contains information on physeal problems.
DrO
Member:
Lorimich

Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2003 - 7:42 pm:

The filly was 12 months the 22nd of March. I have no pasture because of the snow and now what grass is out there is brown and mostly mudd.

The Alfa Gro n Win is Min Calcium 1.00% 4.5gm and Max Calcium 1.50% 6.8gm. With Phosphorus min. 1.50% 6.8gm.

She has good conformation she is correct in the front and toes out a little in the hind. She is very refined in the legs and she has had problems with her hind fetlocks from growing to fast. The knees are of more concern to me but if I can correct the problem it should solve both fetlocks and knees. I am going to have my vet out but we had him take xrays last year of our weanling colt
who is also a yearling but his was from running with his dam in the pasture at 2 weeks old and hurting his fetlocks which caused problems but are fine now.

My vet will probably tell me to switch to grass hay as he did last year. When I put them on grass and and a grain that balanced as my vet suggested I ended up having more problems with the colt and then this filly. I have always fed Alfalfa hay and Alfa gro n win and adding oats if necessary for weight gain and I have never had problem until now.

Thanks
Lori
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003 - 8:02 am:

While the Alfa GnW does help bring the calcium and phosphorous ratio back in line it is still a lot of calcium and total protein in the diet. I went to the Buckeye site and you are feeding this at rates much greater than recommended for the amount of hay and age of your horse, which is less than 0.5 lbs GnW per 10 lbs alfalfa hay for horses over 18 months of age. You are currently feeding over 7 times that amount! This is a supplement that tries and complement alfalfa hay and needs to be fed in specific ratios to the alfalfa. These ratios are based on the age and state of production of the horse. From the important job of balancing calcium, I do not think it does a good job leaving the calcium too high. Also alfalfa fed at the levels suggested on the bag to growing foals has been associated with developmental problems (see our article on feeding growing foals).

The best solution I can see is the one you propose in the begining a mixed good-quality-grass alfalfa hay, that has about 50% grass should be fed at about free choice levels. A 10% - 12% good quality grain mix should then be added to maintain conditon. If you like your Alfa you could continue it at the recommended rates. At the levels you are feeding here this should bring the cal/phos to less than 3 to 1 and lower the all over levels. Any changes you make should be done over several weeks.
DrO
Member:
Lorimich

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003 - 3:19 pm:

This filly is not over 18 months and Buckeye's web site looking up for a yearling getting Alfalfa hay 18-24% protien should get 8 pounds hay and 2.5 pounds Alfa gro n win and up to 5 pounds oats. My yearling is getting 8 pounds hay, 2.5 pounds Alfa gro n win and 1 pound oats total per day split into two feedings.

So giving her half the alfalfa hay 4 pounds and half grass hay 4 pounds split into two feedings with 2.5 pounds alfa gro n win and 1 pound oats split into two feedings should bring the cal/phos to less than 3 to 1? She also eat up salt/selenium blocks could that contribute to the problem maybe she is getting too much selenium?

I really appreciate your help thanks.

Lori
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2003 - 5:26 am:

I apologize Lori, somehow I read your post as 22 months the 12th of March, so I assumed you had a pony.

The amounts you have been feeding are still mismatched: until now it recommended 3 lbs Alfa with 5 lbs oats. When you look at that specific diet, including the alfalfa, the oats really brings the calcium down to a more exceptable level(under 1%) Without doing the calculations still a touch on the high side. Instead you had been feeding the Alfa at 3.5 lbs and were not feeding oats, if I understand you post correctly. This has kept your Ca at very high levels. It is the problem with such a system: different horses (though the same size and age) require different amounts of nutrients to maintain the same condition.

If we assume the combination of all our feedstuffs contain adequate amounts of all nutrients it would appear that if we maintain the relative proportions of all the nutrients for each age group we can adjust their recommended diet.

I still like going over to a mixed hay, but the amount of Alfa still too high in your diet above. If you trust the Buckeye diet, I suggest you keep the ratio of Mixed Hay /Alfa/ Oats at their recommended 7.5 / 2.5 / 5.5 respectively or if you simplify approxiamtely 3 / 1 / 2. In other words more oats (3 to 4 lbs) and less Alfa (1.5 to 2 lbs). This diet is fed at levels that maintain moderate to good conditiom. My criticisms of this diet still apply.

If you are using a high selenium block you need to calculate the amount being eaten and determine if this is appropriate. For help see Care>>Nutrition>>Minerals.
DrO
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