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  Discussion on Is there any correlation between redbag and fescue toxicosis
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New Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 1:59 pm:

I'm utterly heartbroken and kicking myself for trusting our vet's advice and not doing enough research on my own until it was too late. I've spent the past three days pouring over everything I can find related to fescue, redbag, stillborns, and foal diseases. We are new at breeding miniatures. This was supposed to be a delightful time as we were expecting to greet our first group of five little fouls, instead it has been a nightmare. We've had two stillborns and one foal that died before 48 hours, and these little fellows were under the care of a vet.

We moved to this area just over a year ago, and had been told by neighbors that fescue was a problem with pregnant mares. We made preparations for separating the mares from the fescue because the last thing we wanted was trouble for our girls. We went to the local vet in our little town who specializes in horses, and is used by a very high dollar Arabian breeding ranch here. Unfortunately he is the only vet within an hour's drive that deals with horses. We told him about our plans to pen up the horses and he told us it wasn't necessary. He said that fescue did not affect miniatures the way it does full size horses. He went on to state that the only "real" problem fescue caused was lack of milk production and that this could be overcome by domperidone. My husband was relieved that the mares could continue to graze. We continued care with this vet and all seemed fine. The mares looked very healthy. The babies were active. There were no abortions, until due dates anyway.

The trouble started when we had taken Shadow in for a checkup. She was at her due date, but not showing as much as the others, and not bagging very much. She had had some congestion the week before and been on penicillin. That morning the vet looked her over and gave her a clean bill of health. He then quickly checked for the foal's heartbeat with his stethoscope. When he didn't hear it, he said that she must not have conceived right away and believed that she still had at least two more months before delivery. He did not make any attempt to examine her manually because she was too small, he claimed. Well, since things had been fine to this point we trusted him. I feel so stupid! We brought her home,and turned her out with the others since she was now well. Also, because she wasn't supposed to foal for two more months we weren't checking her every hour. That evening after dinner my youngest went to see her and found her in the stall next to a dead foal. The foal was clearly full term. My daughter described the foal as having been inside two bags, a thick red one, and the normal transparent one. My daughter tore open the bags as quickly as she could, but it was too late. We called our vet and he stated that the foal had probably died from Shadow sickness the week before. He didn't give an explanation about the two bags being abnormal. He didn't come out and my daughter had already removed the foal from the sack before I saw it so all he had was my description. He said it sounded like we were looking at the placenta, but didn't indicate that anything was wrong with that.

The next day our mare, Blossom, went into labor. I got out there as quick as a could and things seemed to progress quickly. Blossom made progress with every push and the labor didn't take long at all. I tore open that bag the second the foal hit the ground, but it was already dead. At this point we called the vet and left a message to please come out because we had two stillbirths and things weren't going well AT ALL!!!!!! There was no return call.

Later that night our littlest mare, Pumpkin, went into labor. She is only 27 inches high. It was obvious from the start that she just wasn't going to be able to get that baby out without help. She had one little hoof protruding from her opening. With every contraction a second hoof would appear, but then it would retreat back inside of her at the end of the contraction. We quickly called the vet because clearly the foal needed to be pulled. He did come out and pull the foal. Pumpkin's labor had been going on for an hour or so at this point so she was exhausted and the foal was lethargic. From the beginning this little guy was not well. We followed the vet's advice, doing what we could to get colostrum into the little guy. This included another visit to the vet in which the foal was tubed to deliver nutrition. We got yelled at by the vet for this visit because we had woken him up two times in two days. I began my search for a new vet after that visit. Unfortunately, this little foal was so sick and didn't make it to 48 hours.

We are in a rural area, and finding veterinarians isn't as easy as you'd think. Even when you get a number it seems that no one is around to pick up the phone, and most don't have emergency numbers. I did find one about two hours from our home. His wife raises miniatures so I feel better about this relationship. We have an appointment tomorrow for our last two mares, both are still pregnant. I hope to goodness that he can help them. I appreciated they're concern over the phone when I talked to them. They completely disagree with the previous vet about fescue.

I'm so heartbroken because this was completely avoidable. I wish we had just penned the horse for the last three months like we had planned on. I wish the vet wouldn't have assured us it wasn't necessary. I've been up for three nights now delivering dead foals, nursing sick ones and watching my other two mares like crazy. I am just to pieces over this. I feel so bad for my mares. I've let them down horribly! Not to mention my kids who are just as heartbroken.

I know I have a question in here somewhere. I'm rambling and rambling because this ordeal has been so awful. Okay, my question, from what I've read, I feel that the stillbirths, and the sick foal could definitely be linked to fescue toxicosis. Our ex-vet didn't perform an IgG test on that foal. This is something I will demand of our new one, but from our conversation I think they will be happy to oblige. What I'm wandering is if our first stillborn, the one inside the redbag, could also be linked to fescue?

I'm so sorry for this disaster. I know that many reading this must be appalled. I didn't mean to let our mares down. I thought we were doing what we were supposed to. The mares were getting prenatal care and we were following the advice of a veterinarian. I know far better now. I should have taken more time to educate myself from other sources as well. Agalacia is certainly not the only problem with fescue, and of the many, it seems to be the least to worry about.
Member:
36541

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 2:29 pm:

Shawna, I'm so sorry for what you are going through. It is especially hard when you plan and dream and have that happy anticipation, then it all crashes down. I had a bad breeding year which was the reason I joined this site, and I have relied on Dr.O's articles ever since. I am now a more educated consumer of all things equine, and I have lots of emotional support from HA friends when outcomes are sad. I can't answer your questions, but please accept my sympathies as you are welcomed to HA. Stacy
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 3:02 pm:

so so sorry to hear of your tragic experience. I hope the rest of your foaling will go better... please keep us in the loop. We are all sending high hopes your way.
Member:
twhgait

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 3:30 pm:

Shawna, you are in the right place here! This site has info on anything you can imagine and the support is tremendous during the bad times. I am sending you hugs and strength! I'm so sorry for the ordeal you have had to go thru. I can't imagine.
New Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 3:53 pm:

Thank you,
I'm really struggling with this. I'm sad, and I'm very angry too.

The night the foal died the only vet I could get a hold of was the one that deals with small animals. They actually had an emergency number and I was able to leave a message begging for help. The physician's assistant called me within ten minutes and she had already spoken to the vet. He had the courtesy to tell me that he had no experience with horses, but gave us the phone numbers of some vets that did.

We apparently are not an isolated case though. The PA told me she had no respect for our ex-vet. She said that he was a decent vet if he felt like bothering with you. So, I guess he does a good job for the high end operations that use him. I suppose that's the reason for his prestigious reputation. The PA told me that the small animal vet that she works for has contemplated trying to recruit another equine vet into his practice. They have the facilities on hand because there used to be another equine vet at that location, but he is very old now and retired. She said that we aren't the first to have called out of desperation for some kind of help. Given the reputation of our ex-vet, she said that her employer is afraid of stepping on toes if he does try to recruit another equine veterinarian. Our ex vet's office is only open two days a week because he has commitments elsewhere on the other three days, and there is no way to contact him in an emergency. We happened to have his home number because our neighbors, who were trying to help with Pumpkin's delivery went to church with him. WE have only called him at home twice, both times were related to the mother and foal that lived for 48 hours. He made it quite clear that he did not appreciate it. For these reasons I begged the PA to tell her employer that we need him to bring in another equine veterinarian. I just figure that unless someone has had trouble they've never gotten to see the other side of our ex-vet. I can appreciate him specializing in care for the high end breeding ranches. I wish, however, that he would go into private employment for them so our community would know to look for someone else.


I can understand that he is human, and, most certainly, very busy. I accept that it's not always possible for him to come running to help in an emergency. What I don't understand was his insistence that fescue wouldn't be an issue with our mare's pregnancies. He could have easily said he didn't think it would, but to still ere on the side of caution. How could he get this so wrong? I just don't get it!

I'm venting a lot.....I'm just so very upset! I wanted to save that little guy so badly and would have paid for him to be hospitalized, a tranfusion.....whatever was necessary. The vet offered none of these services. It was pretty much, "Here's some penicillin. Now go away."

Comet, my username, was the name of the little foal that lived for almost 48 hours.
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 4:17 pm:

Shawna, I'm so very sorry to hear of your lost little foals. What a shame. I will keep my fingers crossed for your other mares to have healthy deliveries.

Fran
Member:
zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 5:24 pm:

Shawna, so much pain for you right now am very sorry. But you were NEVER stupid ! You trusted and that is what we all do. Clearly this DR. was not worthy but you had NO way of knowing. You are now doing the very best you can to correct the situation I hope all goes well for your 2 mares and you! and know that all of us would be as furious as you are at the stupid SOB who caused you and yours such unnecessary pain. Cindy
Member:
annes

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 6:33 pm:

Shawna,
I am so sad for what you and your family have been through and hope you get answers and support from your new vet. I will be praying for a happy outcome for your other two mares. - Ann
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 8:29 pm:

Oh what a horrid time of it you have had.. Breeding and foaling out mares is not at all as easy as it can appear.. Stuff happens and it so sad when it does..and it happens quickly.. My understanding is that minis are more difficult to foal out then the larger horses.. everything is just smaller.. THAT is what i have been told don't know if it is fact , Dr. O will clear that up for me..
Don't blame yourself but do move on..
I am sending good positive foaling thoughts for the remaining mares..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
New Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 8:50 pm:

I'm looking forward to the appointment with the new vet tomorrow. I'll post to let you know how it goes and what hope we have. Of the two mares I'm taking in, one is due to foal any second. I'm hoping she holds off until after we've seen the veterinarian. The second was supposed to be bred when we bought her. We actually got her at auction and are somewhat uncertain of her due date. I want this vet to check her out and see if he can give us a more specific frame of time. I believe she still has about three months though, so at least there is a chance to do better by her.

We've already pent these two mare up and gotten them away from the fescue. I realize that it's probably too late to make a difference with Jewel, but it can't hurt either. Jewel looks so big to me so I'm somewhat concerned about her prolonged pregnancy. According to our records, she should foal this week. However, I was basing that estimate on a 340 day pregnancy, as the ex vet stated that miniature's pregnancies are the same duration as full size horses. During all my digging of the past few days I have come across information that suggest mini's pregnancies actually average 319 days. If so, then unless she didn't conceive right away, she is way overdue. I feel great relief though that we have much better information, and from what I gathered on the phone with the new vet, I think there is some hope for Jewel.

We also have a large mare that was bred when we bought her. She was just supposed to be a riding horse as it was not our intention to breed large horses, so we didn't know she was regnant until we realized she wasn't cycling. Then we had it confirmed. She will be seeing this new vet as well.

Thanks for all your concerns. I know that a great deal of my first posts have been just me ranting and spewing venom because I'm so upset. Don't mean to abuse this board as a therapy session, but it did help. I do feel better. I'm also so glad to have a place I can go for advise now.
New Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 9:05 pm:

Minis are harder to foal from what I understand. I don't have any experience with large horses yet, and needless to say, my experience with foaling minis is disastrous. I talked with the breeders that we bought our mares from. They agreed that minis can be difficult, but thought that what we were experiencing was far from ordinary. They don't have fescue in their area, so what I was telling them was news to their ears as well.

I think I'm getting past my grief. I really want to concentrate on a positive outcome with Jewel, Cupcake, and Misty, our large horse. I regret so much at the moment and that is kind of hard, but I'm trying.

My kids seem to be handling things much better today also. As a mother, I think a lot of my anger is also having to see my kids hurt as well. Truthfully though, I think they are doing better than me...so I intend to pull it together and be positive from here on. What's happened can't be changed.....(sigh). I wish it could though. Okay, I very much appreciate all of the thoughts and prayers.
New Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 9:14 pm:

Just wanted to add this: I feel pretty good about Misty, our large horse. She is an old girl, around 20, and was having trouble getting enough nutrition, so we took her out of the pasture about eight weeks ago. She has been in a pen up by our barn on a special diet of feed, suppliments, and alfalfa hay. I am concerned about her age,but she seems healthy and the baby is very active. She is due now also, so we are keeping a very close eye on her. She has been away from the fescue for about sixty days. She has a good bag and is secreting colostrum. I'm very glad about that.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 12:19 am:

Shawna, you're certainly getting a rough start in what can be at times a rough business, as Ann said. Most of the time things go well with mares and foaling, but when they don't, it is heart wrenching. I wish you well with your other mares. I'll be keeping an eye on your posts to see what happens.
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 7:17 am:

Shawna, what a nightmare it's been for you, and certainly none of it was your fault in the least. That vet has a lot to answer for, and as usual it's innocent horses and their owners who suffer for his arrogance/ignorance.

It sounds as if Misty may have been away from the fescue long enough for all to go well, and let's hope your new vet can help Jewel and Cupcake (such nice names!).

Fingers crossed for you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 10:15 am:

My condolences Shawna I know this is a very tough time.

Concerning your question about a relation between fescue and redbag, since fescue can cause a thickened placenta and one of the predisposing cause to placenta previa (red bag) is thickness at the cervix you can conjecture a relationship. I find it listed as a cause is several equine reproductive text books but cannot find any support for the statement in the scientific or reviewed veterinary literature.

That said, I can find no support for the idea than minis are not effected by fescue toxicosis and if there is a reference to this I would be interested. For more on fescue toxicity see Equine Reproduction » Pregnancy, Foaling, & Neonatal Care » Pregnant Mare Care and Nutrition.
DrO
Member:
comet

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 11:36 am:

Thank you Dr.O. One of the reason's I asked this question is that an acquaintence here in town was telling me, after this, that fescue caused the mare to develope a thick red bag. I had already been researching and was aware that red bag was placenta previa and wondered if this thick red bag that this person was describing was actually the placenta. In our case, since my daughter found the foal inside two bags, a thick red one and the normal one, I feel that red bag was probable. Does this description sound like red bag to you.

I'm trying to get past my anger. The more I think about it the more baffled I am though that our vet would tell us this. My husband and I had approached him to describe the manner in which we planned to construct the new pen that would keep the horses away from the fescue. We wanted to confirm that they need to be away from it two months before delivery, and two months after. So, the conversation we had with him was very direct concerning these things. It was then that he told us it wasn't necessary to pen them because fescue didn't effect them. He stated no reference for this. I wish that I had asked, and pressed for more on why he thought it wouldn't hurt. I just accepted it because he was supposed to be the expert. I've done a considerable amount of reading these past 5 or 6 days, and given the science behind why fescue effects horses the way it does, I'm referring to the hormone disruption, it is beyond me that he think this. Miniature's are horses after all. I will be interested to know why he thought that, and I am going to ask him. He owes us an explanation.

I appreciate that some have said that this isn't my fault, but it is, at least partly. I should have done what I'm doing now from the beginning.

We're leaving in an hour to see the new vet. I will post how that goes.
Member:
comet

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 11:58 am:

I feel good about Misty. She had been grazing on fescue as well. The vet knew and said that with her the only worry was milk production. He said we could counter this by giving her domperidone a few days before she foaled. Well, in a very short period she went from looking well to be very skinny. We rushed her in. At this point in time we believed her to only be 13 because that's what her Coggins papers said. The vet agreed that her weight loss wasn't good. He checked her teeth and said that she was twenty instead of thirteen. Because of her age, he said she wasn't chewing well, and without chewing well her body couldn't process the food. It was at this point we removed her from the pasture and began a special diet. She has gained back most of her weight.

The foal is very active! You can see it moving around in her hips on either side of her tailbone when she's laying down. Misty is so gentle. I'm really looking forward to her baby being born. I think she will be a great mom.

Oh....I had no idea what a beautiful moment it would be to see mother and baby. The night Comet was born his mother, Pumpkin, nuzzled beside him making little noises to which he would respond in kind. As he tried to stand he was having trouble balancing and she placed her nose underneath him to steady him. I couldn't believe that! It was just gorgeous to watch.
Member:
morg1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 1:50 pm:

I'm sorry for your loss. I had to put a foal down a couple of years ago, and it was an agonizing thing to go through. You wait 11 months for them and then when they are dead or die it just breaks you. I used a vet once that told me that fescue grass caused a mare to have too much milk. That along with a few other untruths he told me caused me to look for a different vet. I hope that you can get a new vet to your area. Two hours away is too far to have a vet from you in an emergency. Good luck with your next two. I'm waiting for foals myself. I have one mare that is at 354 days today, so I'm am getting very anxious for her to have it already.
Member:
jockyrdg

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 4:47 pm:

Hello Shawna; my condolences on your losses, it is so hard to lose life before it starts. It sounds like you might be doing more breeding in the future. I would like to make some suggestions. Often veterinary clinics that deal with a lot of breeding or universities with equine science programs will run seminars about foaling. It might be worth your while to see if anything like that is run in your area and sign up for it next year.
Regarding the foaling itself, I'm sure you've been reading how quickly it happens. It would be unlikely that any vet could get there in time to help with a difficult delivery. Your vet might recommend some literature or get a copy of "The Complete book of foaling" by Karen Hayes and then discuss it with your vet. There are several things to be aware of during and after delivery which are imp. Good luck with the rest of the crew.
Member:
comet

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 10:32 pm:

We saw our new veterinarian today and we do have some proactive plans for what to do for Jewel and Misty. It turns out that Cupcake isn't pregnant, just a little overweight. I'm actually relieved at that. We can get things set up right before we try breeding her again.

The vet said that Jewel's baby feels very large. She looks it, so I expected that. Jewel has a bag, but there is no milk. We are starting her on domperidone for the next seven to ten days to get her milk in. Once her milk is in, if she hasn't foaled the vet will induce at his office. Jewel is quite overdue. I'm certain that this is a result of the fescue. According to our records and the estimate from our old vet we thought she was due now, but that was based on our old vet's insistence that Mini's gestation is 340 days. This vet did confirm that miniature's only have a ten month pregnancy. This places Jewel in a lot of danger. I asked this vet if he thought she could have the foal on her own and he gave me a skeptical look. I'm very nervous!

Misty did not go with us today. I had been feeling pretty good about her. She had bagged and seemed to have milk. I expressed some and we took it because I'm just so paranoid about it being deficient. It was almost clear looking and that concerned me. I showed it to the vet and he said that it wasn't colostrum. So, we have also started Misty on the domperidone too. We've had her off of fescue for a while, but I guess not long enough. If she hasn't foaled within the week we will take her in to evaluate whether or not she needs to be induced.

The vet said that the domperidone will only cause their milk to come in if they are near foaling. I'm very afraid that both of these girls have extremely large babies. I don't want to loose them, or their foals.

This vet took a lot of time to answer many questions. He will perform an IgG test. His office was actually closer than I thought. It was only an hour and twenty minutes away. Obviously that is too far to be of help in an emergency. Our neighbor is very good friends with another horse breeder in town. This lady has raised them for years and years and has pulled many. She offered her help if an emergency arises.

I most definitely will look into any type of seminar on foaling, and horse breeding. I think I may also ask this other horse breeder if I can spend some time at their place when her mares began to foal. They aren't miniatures, but I'd like to learn how she handles things.

The vet we saw knows our exvet. He was greatly concerned over the advice we received. We asked him to please find a way to get the correct information concerning minis to our exvet so he doesn't do this to any other horses and their breeders. The worst combination of his advice was that of the 340 day pregnancy with the lack of concern over fescue. Since fescue prolongs pregnancy, if someone doesn't know that a mini should foal around 320 days, they don't know that their mare is overdue. They simply think she hasn't reached her due date and don't realize that the pregnancy is overdue because of fescue.
Member:
comet

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 10:46 pm:

Oh...forgot to add that he also sent us home with some donor colostrum in case they foal before their milk comes in.

Domperidone had been discussed with us by our exvet's wife in regards to Misty a month ago, but the directions she gave were completely different from what we got today. She said to give her, 5cc then wait 12 hours and see if she begins to bag. If she doesn't then she's not ready to foal and don't give her anymore. We followed these directions and she didn't bag, so we quit giving it to her. She did bag a week later or so, but there is no colostrum. This vet, whose instructions are much more in line with what I have read on the internet, said to give her 5cc per day and that if she's ready to foal her milk should be in within 7 to 10 days.

Okay...well, obviously I'm still mad and just wanting to pick apart everything our exvet did, so I should probably stop typing now.

I need to end this post positively. I'm very nervous at realizing just how much danger Jewel is in, but at least we are doing something and have better information now. I need prayers for her and Misty's safety....badly....me too, I'm very torn up and scared.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Apr 5, 2007 - 11:12 pm:

Shawna, I'm really glad you have someone experienced nearby that will help you. I have a friend here (also a breeder) whose neighbor bred minis for several years. I don't know how much the mini breeder knew about foaling, or horses in general; but I do know she had lots of problems and my friend had to go up and assist her several different times. IMO no matter how experienced you are it's good to have help "on call." Even with big horses and lots of experience, there can be problems. I'm sure you're already doing this but be sure and talk with this woman and learn as much as possible, and watch your mares closely. One of the biggest problems the mini breeder that used to live around here had was that she didn't watch her mares close enough. She and her husband both worked, and the mares were alone for long periods of time. A mare would have a bad presentation where the foal needed to be turned and by the time the poor mare was discovered it was too late to save the foal. As I think I said before, usually all goes well; but when it doesn't the mares need help right now!

Smart move to have the colostrum on hand. I always kept some in the freezer. Another thing that's good to have on hand, imo, is Foal-Lac or another mare mild substitute. It's hard to find in the middle of the night if you happen to need it.
Member:
comet

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 1:32 am:

We also have Faol-Lak on hand. I picked up two more bottles with smaller nipples that I think will suit the mini foals better from the vet today incase we do end up bottle feeding.

We are doing our best to keep a close eye on the mares. That's why I'm still up at this hour. My shift isn't up. We had a lesson in how fast things can occur when Pumpkin began to foal last Saturday. We have a family that lives at the front of our property. The husband/dad helps us with fences, cattle, and horses. Mini horses are new to him though too. He had checked Pumpkin fifteen minutes before we did and nothing was going on. My husband and I were about to crawl in bed, but decided to check once more, just in case. That's when we found her in labor. Since her foal had to be pulled I do not think she would have lived if we hadn't found her. Since that night we've been looking in on them every 45 minutes in shifts. Mine ends at 2:30. My husband will take 3:15 - 4:45. My 13 year old son checks them at 5:30 and my eleven year old daughter takes 6:15 and my nine year old daughter takes seven. David, the neighbor who helps us checks at 7:45 and again at 8:15. Then it's us for the rest of the day. The vet that we saw today told us that there is a monitor that can be attached to the mare that will set off an alarm when she is in labor. I definitely think I will look into that. I am fortunate enough to be a stay at home mom, so I am here almost all of the time. Right now we coordinate with the family at the front of our property to make sure that someone is always checking them regularly. I don't what anymore preventable tragedies if I can help it.
Member:
jockyrdg

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 8:12 am:

Hi Shawna; Looks like you are getting some really good information and have your feet on solid footing. Unfortunately, you are learning because of problems- but that is the way most horse people learn. I always envy the owner who doesn't know how to wrap a leg because they have never had to!
Another thought on Jewel because it sounds like another difficult road ahead. If your breeder friend is really set up for foaling- i.e. night watch, someone on duty, etc, you might consider having Jewel foal out there. Question is who is her vet- your ex-vet? You are very wise to keep a close watch on Jewel. There are a lot of different mechanisms on the market for prediction, all have pros and cons. At the neonatal clinic they used the predicting kits based on calcium and it was pretty accurate. But wasn't useful for the mares that brought their milk in "with the baby" so to speak. You're idea of spending time at the breeding farm is a good one.
You are already sounding so much more knowledgeable, you will come through this and someday be a big help to others. One last thought- get your new vets cell number- if you have a dystocia in the middle of the night- he might be able to talk you through some things- if he is willing.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 9:48 am:

VIDEO CAMS in the barn.. you can get them for not much money and will save you walks to the barn.. or sleeping in the barn..
Is this mare with the big foal a maiden mare..? If so, if you can have your vet foal her out that would be my choice.. Maiden mares are TIGHT ,specially mini's , this can prove to be very difficult to deliver..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 10:57 am:

If you don't want to spring for video cams, even the baby monitors help you know what is going on and they are really cheap. I think I've seen the monitors for about $100 in Walmart. Just me, the worry wart, but if I don't have a monitor, I sleep next to the mare's stall on a cot. If all goes well, the foaling will take about 20 mins. to half an hour or so. Problems can be prevented if you see them right away. ie, if you don't see the normal presentation of a hoof and nose, but see a rear hoof or other body part, as soon as you see it, you can get the mare up and walk her and often the foal will reposition itself. This can only be done when it first starts to present. If you have to reposition a foal, it's also easier to do it when you first start to see it try and emerge as opposed to after it's part way out and stuck. Don't mean to worry you. Just some "been there, done that" advice.

It does sound like you've learned a lot in the last week...sorry it had to be a "crash course" so to speak.
Member:
comet

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 12:47 pm:

Jewel is a maiden mare. The foal's nose is in position, but the hooves are not up. Yesterday the vet said that it wasn't a big deal in that the foal could lift it's little hooves at any moment and be ready to dive out.

The other breeder doesn't use our exvet. She actually tried to hint to us to find someone else the day after Thanksgiving. We had a proud cut gelding that tried to run through a fence to get to a mare in season. He got a deep gash in his chest muscle, slashed opened his knee and nicked a vein by his hoof. This was Thanksgiving day, so our exvet was unavailable. I was able to get ahold of the PA at the small animal clinic. She happened to be in feeding their animal. This is the same PA who helped us the other night by giving us phone numbers of other equine veterinarians. Even though they don't care for horses she still came out to see if she could help. She wrapped the leg and got his bleeding at the hoof to stop. Cheryl, the breeder, came out also. She was concerned about blood loss. There was a suppliment, can't remember the name, but it helped with anemia. Cheryl made a statement about using a her vet if we ever had something very serious at that time. Unfortunately he is two hours away. That horse is completely healed and healthy now.

The new vet gave us his home phone and said to call at the first hint of trouble. He said to leave a message because that's how he filters the emergencies from "a worm crawled out of my dog's butt" situations at 12:00 in the morning.
He instructed me on what to do, and not do, if we have to pull a foal and no one can get there quick enough to help. The communication was very good between us yesterday. I would prefer that Jewel foal at his facility. If her milk comes in quickly, before the ten days is up, I will ask him if he can go ahead and induce.

My husband is going to check out baby monitors and cameras today. I'm pooped.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 3:02 pm:

Dr. O.. correct me if I am wrong here.. but inducing horses is usually NOT an option.. its not like with humans , correct..??

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 8:21 pm:

Shawna, boy do I know tha pooped feeling! Sounds like you've got things pretty well under control. I'm so glad you got some good advice. It's hard and nervewracking the first few times around when you're on your own! Seems like you're a quick learner!
Member:
comet

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 10:14 pm:

I just want to clarify that this new vet is not taking the issue of inducing labor lightly. He's very concerned about the size of the foal. I feel better about it being done under controlled conditions.

Second day on Domperidone, a wee bit of a bag today, very wee, but there. No foal on either horse yet.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 11:39 pm:

He probably feels it's safer to induce and get the foal and not let it go any longer than necessary. From what you've said, it sounds like he knows what he's doing.

Are you able to get some sleep?
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 11:42 pm:

Shawna,
If I may, I would refer you to Marestare.com. It is a website created to cam stream imminent labor and foalings for large horses, minis, minidonks, dogs, etc...run by Heather Troglauer of Mulligan's Run who is my "MINI MENTOR". She is a treasure trove of information and is as generous with her self, her knowledge and her enthusiasm for all things "mini" as is the HA community. IMHO Marestare, an internet accessed streaming cam service, is an invaluable tool. IT is FAR less expensive than I though possible, and provides a priceless service. We can all watch each other's foalings, when a mare is on "alert" all those interested in the foaling are emailed a notice, and when hard labor starts, another email alert is sent out. While watching the cam online, one also sees 2 phone #s to contact the owners if one sees a mare in hard labor with noone in the stall. This service was created so that the watch is always shared. Heather does not sleep at night during foaling season. This is her baby. She is always "ON" from December to May.
She also heads a Foundation called "Mare Stare Cares" whose purpose is to assist horse owners faced with devastating equine health issues. They provide resources and at times, financial assistance. I have been learning about foaling from her and watching as many foalings as possible through mare stare to get ready for our first season next year. Heather has also gotten me into Lil Beginnings, a website chatroom/board regarding all mini issues. Heather is an amazing woman who will help you any way she can, but will NOT tolerate you beating yourself up over this. Your grief and anxiety is painfully obvious to us all and OUR anger is directed at the seemingly burned out professional who caused you all this needless horror. Please just be as gentle with yourself as you would be with any one of us who suffered this awful experience.
When you contact Heather,(PM me to get her phone#s if you prefer) tell her I sent you (Cyndy with Miller Farms Equine Transport) and tell her Hopey and Belle are happy and keeping me laughing. She DrOve out here and gave them to me last year when she felt I needed a bucket of Zoloft, they are my babies, my clowns, my oasis. Precious in their own right, but even more so as they were a gift from a now treasured friend. This mess begs for a happy ending!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 7:24 am:

Inducing parturition in horses is fraught with problems but under certain specific conditions might be the best choice and can be done successfully in some instances for more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Induced Labor, Parturition, or Birth.
DrO
Member:
mitma

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 11:42 am:

Shawna,
My heart goes out to you for your recent losses... you will find comfort and wonderful information here at HA. That being said, get through this foaling season and later, when things have settled down, you need to do this: CONTACT THE LICENSING AUTHORITY responsible for issuing your ex-vet's license to "practice" veterinary medicine in your state (probably something like the "your state" Board of Veterinary Medicine) and file a FORMAL COMPLAINT. I have no idea if vets get sued (often) for MALPRACTICE as human physicians do, and I'm not suggesting you file a malpractice suit, however, you can't take back your tragedy, but you can help prevent someone else's misfortune. When any practitioner lacks the professional commitment and ethics (doesn't answer your calls and gets mad at you for "bothering him" two nights in a row) and requisite knowledge, skill, and competency (asserts a position, i.e., "don't worry about fescue in minis", NOT supported in the scientific literature or manifest as a standard of care) to practice the speciality of veterinary medicine, they should NOT be allowed to continue in the endeavor!!!!!! Also, find out if this individual is a member of AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners) and/or any other professional veterinarian association and lodge a complaint at those sites. Please believe me that I am not encouraging you to do this to be punitive or vindictive, but to PREVENT further tragedy and misfortune!!! Good Luck to you and your family and please keep us posted!
Martha
Member:
comet

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 1:13 pm:

Thanks so much Cyndy. I'm going to that website just as soon as I finish here. The vet we saw the other day recommended the Lil Beginnings also.

I'm feeling better. I had no idea that something like this could affect me to the degree that it has. I typed a letter yesterday to the exvet, and I think that helped me express my anger a little more productively. I'm going to sit on the letter until after Jewel and Misty deliver. Once this has settled I'll read it again and see if I need to change anything. I know it's better to wait until I'm not so angry before sending it.

This is a little community and I suppose that people are afraid to say anything since this person is the only equine vet in our area. Since this has happened though I have had five others express their dissatisfaction over their own experiences with this vet too.

Last night I came to a curious calm over the situation. I'm watching my girls closely, but I can of feel like it's going to be okay. I know we are doing all that we can from this point. Both mares seem quite happy. Little Jewel wants back in the pasture with her friends, but she's got to have that baby first.

The mares that have lost foals also seem to be recovering. I think Pumpkin and I are eternally bonded now. Now, she comes right to me and lets me just love all over her every time she see me. She's just the cutest little thing...only 27 inches high.
Member:
comet

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 1:25 pm:

I most definitely will contact the Licensing Authority. I think we may not be alone either. Yesterday I spoke with someone who couldn't get in touch with him when their mare was foaling. She couldn't get the foal out. They ended up doing what we did, calling the small animal vet here in town. That vet came out even though it's not his specialty. He tried, but didn't have the expertise to help. In the end, the mare was in such agony, and the foal was likely dead since this just went on and on, so the owners ask the small animal vet to please put her down.

I think that people are afraid to speak up because they're scared that he won't help them in an emergency if they do. Since he is the only one here there aren't other choices. He hardly helps anyway, so what it there to loose.
Member:
comet

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 1:40 pm:

Thank you Dr. O. I'm making a copy of the info on induction. I'd like to discuss the method of induction with the vet before we go through with it, if it comes to that.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 1:46 pm:

Shawna, how about pictures of your little mares?
Member:
comet

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 3:23 pm:

I'm certain I'm not doing this right. It's been so long since I've posted pics. This works though if you click on the links. Cupcake is the first, followed by Blossom, Pumpkin, Shadow, and Jewel. The picture of Jewel isn't too great. I'll look for another to post later.

[URL=https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/picssept1106053.jpg][IMG]https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/th_picssept1106053.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/picsmay06195.jpg][IMG]https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/th_picsmay06195.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/picsmay06194.jpg][IMG]https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/th_picsmay06194.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/picsmay06191-1.jpg][IMG]https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/th_picsmay06191-1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/picsnov30011.jpg][IMG]https://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/menamama/th_picsnov30011.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 7, 2007 - 4:00 pm:

Thanks. They are SOOOO CUTE!!! I sure hope all goes well! Hang in there; get a little rest when you can.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 12:32 am:

WOW! Thanks for the Easter treat! They are so sweet it was just like getting a chocolate bunny in my basket!

Wishing you the very best of luck....
Member:
dres

Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 10:00 am:

They are very cute.. Ok question on Mini's please..

they appear to have rather larger heads for their bodies..... and have noticed at birth that they have a large space between the eyes, almost a ''jibba' (sp) like the arabs can have.. Could this be why the births tend to be more difficult?

On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 6:24 pm:

Hopey and Belle took a vote, they like your pasture better than ours....Heather just has her whole place fenced in 4' chain link... can you imagine fencing your horses in that???lol Belle has been back in her blanket lately, our weather was in the 90's a couple of weeks ago, and now it is in the 20's at night and we had already clipped Belle, poor baby...thank GOd the blades gave out before we got Hopey done... who knew God was turning the heat off again this week??? Your kids look happy, grass and sunshine blessed. Enjoy... hope the rest of your foaling goes well... expecting more pix when it does.....
Member:
comet

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:26 pm:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we are taking the girls into the vet today. This is their fifth day on Domperidone and both Misty and Jewel have full bags and are waxed over. I called the vet yesterday to tell him. He wants to see them again today to evaluate the situation again. The plans are to induce labor, at least for Jewel and possibly Misty too. If he still feels this is the safest course of action, we should have a couple of foals today. I'm very nervous, but excited too. Hopefully all will go well. I've got my questions ready before we proceed. Our appointment is at 2:00. I'll post tonight, or in the morning, to let everyone know how things are.
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:37 pm:

Good luck! Sending good thoughts your way for healthy mares and foals.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:52 pm:

Best of luck, Shawna, to you, Misty and Jewel! They are such little darlings; I hope all goes well and will be anxious to hear your report this evening.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:58 pm:

I'm adding my best wishes as well. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your new little cuties.
Member:
annes

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 1:34 pm:

Shawna,
I hope you, Misty and Jewel have a day full of blessings...
Ann
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 2:38 pm:

Yes, best of luck!
Member:
comet

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 10:32 pm:

YIPPIE! The day was a huge success! We got a little filly from Jewel, and a colt from Misty. All are doing great!

Misty's delivery was very easy. He checked her out very thoroughly, and assessed the size of the foal. He felt that it was fairly large. She was already all gushy in the back end and the foal was in the birth canal. It took the shot of pitocin exactly 27 minutes to take effect. Then Misty laid down and pushed out the foal within five minutes. He's a dark brown little guys with white socks and a star on his forehead. He appears very healthy. We left him and Misty at the vet's until morning because it was too unsafe to bring both mother's and their babies home at the same time in our trailer. When we left he was up nursing. Misty is an old gal, but she looks so proud. She's very attentive and acts like she has done this before, which she probably has. She looks a lot better than I had anticipated given her malnourished state. Now we need to get her teeth tended to and fatten her up again. We named the little fellow Rocky.

Jewel's delivery was a bit more dramatic. I'm so glad she was there and not at home because there is no way that foal was coming out without assistance. The vet induced and after about 20 minutes her tail began to rise and she went down. He had already determined that this was an extremely large foal. Well, it turns out that it wasn't an extremely large foal, it was an enormously gigantic foal. It was so big that it didn't want to enter the birth canal. The vet had his whole arm up there trying to position the foal and retrieve her. I got fairly nervous when he asked his assistant to get some type of lasso like device. He only put it around the back of the foal head and pulled gently. Finally this little girl emerged. She was vigorous! I think she may be 10 pounds heavier than the other foals, which were full term. The vet felt that she was most certainly several weeks overdue. He also believed that it was very likely that both mother and baby would have died trying to have it without help. This little gal was up so quickly, and walking so fast within the first hour that it was almost a trot. She winnied loudly. The vet's wife said she'd never heard a foal winnie that loudly so soon after birth. After that delivery I was afraid that Jewel might have a hard time, but she was up within ten minutes herself. She went straight to grazing. She hasn't been able to for almost a week, so I know she was happy about that. This little filly is a bay.

The only thing that makes me sad is that when we got Jewel and Lil'Diamond back home in their stall, Pumpkin came up. She was so curious and then she started pawing at the gate like she wanted in. I think she may think the foal is hers. Bless her heart....she was a good mamma to her little foal. I do wish things had turned out different for her.

All in all, it was a fantastic day. The little foals are the image of health. I'm pleased as punch. I love this new vet. He was grinning ear to ear at the sight of the healthy foal, and when he heard her winnie so soon, he looked just like a proud pappa. I will definitely recommend him to others around here. The other vet is a danger.

Yesterday I was talking with some friends at a school function. Two of them knew of the week we'd had, so of course, this all came up in the conversation. Of this group of five, all had issues with the former vet. One, obviously, was me. Another had a show lamb that delivered triplets. They had to be pulled. One of the triplets had died in utero and infected the other two. They died shortly after birth. My friend was concerned for the mother because she figured that if a dead lamb could infect it's siblings, then it could probably do so to the mother as well. For this reason she asked for antibiotics. The vet said she didn't need them because he had irrigated the womb. The mamma died 24 hours later. Another took her dog in for a routine sterilization. The vet gave the wrong dosage of anesthesia and put the dog into a comma. He didn't tell her. When she picked up the dog it was asleep and wouldn't wake up. She had to take it to another vet. It nearly died. Two other had horses that this vet had examined and determined not to be pregnant. Both were. One foaled, to the surprise of her owner, and fortunately there was no problem. The other also foaled unassisted since she wasn't supposed to be pregnant. Her foal died. This man is dangerous! I've got to do something.

It's late and I'm pooped. I'll try and get pictured downloaded and posted tomorrow.
Member:
mitma

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:03 am:

Shawna,
I'm so thrilled to hear of your wonderful outcomes for both Misty and Jewel!!!! Everytime I think about what you, your family, and your beloved horses have had to endure from an obviously incompetent vet, I become furious... but, as I said before, your can't change your experience, but hopefully, by reporting this person's behavior to the regulatory authorities, you will help protect someone else from this type of misfortune. Also, though I stated earlier that I was not suggesting that you file a malpractice suit... the more I think about it, you probably have sufficient grounds for that action and maybe you should consider it. If you do, make sure you wait a while, then get some legal advice... For medical doctors in most states, there is a statute of limitations for malpractice claims... I have no idea if that is true for veterinarians. No matter what you do, TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW NOT TO USE THAT VET!!! Also, maybe you and your friends could form an advocacy group to help recruit an equine (or at least a large animal) vet to your area... consider contacting the vet school in your state (if your state has one) or the surrounding states and "tell your stories". Also, maybe your new "wonderful" vet could help recruit someone to your area specifically??? Meanwhile, enjoy your new babies and best of luck!!!
Martha
Member:
freshman

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:53 am:

CONGRATS on your new arrivals! I'm so glad that these two produced healthy foals and everyone involved seems to be doing well. This is truely due to your persistence in seeking good medical care for your mares, and also your willingness to invest considerable resources into their care--a truely dedicated owner! I hope that you can take some comfort in knowing this, and that watching the ones that you saved will help ease your grief you have struggled with this season. I hope that the mares and foals continue to do well, and that you can finally take a deep breath and relax--you deserve it.

I'm glad that you have found a veterinarian that you like and trust to do right by your horses. Only wish that you never had to deal with anything less. Please keep us updated about your mares and new foals, and send pictures!
Member:
morg1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 7:23 am:

That's wonderful! I can't wait to see pictures.
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 9:56 am:

I'm so happy and relieved for you that Misty & Jewel delivered safely - and that New Vet is so great.

Having said that, I also feel like THROTTLING Old Vet every time I hear of another of his crimes.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 10:16 am:

Great news! Would love to see pictures. Those little foals are so precious looking. It certainly sounds like you've found a wonderful vet.

If all you say is true regarding the first vet you can call the state licensing bureau or the American Veterinary Association and ask that they look into his practice. I'd caution that there are always two sides to every story, but from what you say his methods sound pretty strange.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:49 am:

Shawna, congratulations on the new foals.But much more CONGRATULATIONS on being someone willing to rise up and take command of an ugly situation and find your mares someone who sounds great as well as caring and competent.Which will allow your mares the chance to raise happy healthy foals! As requested above pics Please! Cindy
Member:
comet

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 12:12 pm:

My husband went to get Misty and Rocky but they aren't back yet. Lil'Diamond and Jewel are doing wonderfully. I've been thinking that this probably wouldn't be the case if Pumpkin's foal had lived. I was already questioning the old vet, but it was Comet's death that really put the fire under me to find someone else. Given how hard it was to pull Jewel's foal, and her size, the new vet felt that we were likely to have lost them both if she tried to deliver at home. Also, it's no telling how much longer she would have gone, and how much bigger that foal would have gotten. So, I kind of feel like Comet saved Jewel and Lil'Diamond.

I'm going to contact the Licensing Board. I do not intend to seek legal action. I don't feel up for it. I want to move on. I am finding though that the old vet isn't as prestigious as I thought. There are several major horse people in town that won't use him. One of the ladies I talked with the other day said that she has known him for a long time and that he has his ups and downs. I got the feeling that she was referring to a bipolar disorder. On his ups, she says he is fairly competent, on his downs he is likely to kill your animal. I think he must be on a down. He just seems to have no love for the animals. The night he came out to pull Pumpkin's foal he grabbed her by the tail and drug her across the stall. If he needed her moved we would gladly have helped. I feel for him if he suffers from this condition, but it makes it even more urgent that something be done. I'm going to try and see how we can going about recruiting another large animal, or equestrian specialist, for our town. This guy's title is Equestrian Reproductive Specialist, how baffling is that!

The moodiness of the ex vet I can forgive. I don't think that alone is grounds for complaint. His advise about the fescue is an obvious mistake, and I will include that. I will also include that he was wrong on the gestational length of miniatures. He declared with such conviction that it was us who were mistaken on this, so this has to be addressed.

There is one other thing that bothers me GREATLY!!! I don't know if this is a common practice with veterinarians. When we took Shadow in the morning before she foaled he listened for the foal's heartbeat with his stethoscope. When he couldn't hear it he told us that she still likely had a couple of months. Shadow has a taller, longer frame, so she wasn't showing like Jewel, Blossom and Pumpkin. We trusted his advice, as we had no reason at that moment not to. We turned Shadow out to pasture. She foaled that night. My daughter found the foal dead inside a thick red bag. I figured that since he hadn't heard the heartbeat the foal was stillborn. The foal was clearly full term. The vet had made no attempt to Palpitate Shadow's belly to determine the foal's size

When we took Jewel to this new vet I was so concerned about another stillborn that I asked him to listen for the foal's heartbeat with his stethoscope. He said that it was nearly impossible to hear the foal's heartbeat that way. I said ,"really!" And he replied that he certainly couldn't hear it that way. Anyhow, now I'm wondering if it was completely irresponsible for the old vet to have declared that Shadow shouldn't foal for two more months based on this assessment. I'm also thinking that this foal may have been born alive. Since we believed she still had two months before foaling we weren't checking on her frequently like we were the others. If it was a redbag delivery, I guess the chances of saving that foal were minimal, but I hate it that we weren't watching her. Do any of your vets use a stethoscope to listen for the heartbeat? If they do, and can't hear it what do they do next?
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 1:45 am:

Congratulations on your new arrivals. It's so wonderful to hear of the good outcome. Like everyone else, I'm appalled at your experience with the first vet. Hopefully, you'll have some luck in recruiting another vet. From what I've heard, there may be a serious large animal vet shortage coming. My niece, an equine vet in Mass. has been talking about it for a couple of years. I didn't give it much thought, because I knew that here in New Jersey, I was set. But then, last Friday, my vet was here for spring shots, etc., and began talking about the same thing. She's just lost her young partner of 4 years, who decided to give up equines for a much safer, saner, more lucrative, small animal practice. She had trouble finding another well suited partner and decided to cut back drastically on her practice. Thank heaven, we weren't cut. If there is a coming shortage, the first thing to do, if you have a great vet, is to take wonderful care of them.
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