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  Discussion on Heat Stroke/Exhaustion
Author Message
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2003 - 8:43 am:

Dr. O,
A lady at my barn says she has heard to treat this with banamine. Is this correct?
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2003 - 6:07 am:

Considering the probable complications Banamine (flunixine) or bute is logical but should not be the mainstay of overheating and severe exhausion and if dehydration a problem may be harmful if given by itself. I have just uploaded a rewrite of this article we have been working on which goes in more detail of proper treamtent.
DrO
New Member:
modh

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 12:13 pm:

I can find little to nothing regarding actual heat stroke. My horse has been diagnosed with "heat stroke" previously. I made an emergency call last night only to get a protocol kind of answer which bluntly meant your horse is not worth treating. She is 34 years old, my first foal from my first horse, so there is an obvious emotional human compassion issue. Two years ago an on call after hours vet said she needed to be put down, that she was dying. Her regular vet came within a few hours in the morning and said she had a heat stoke but was not suffering with cardiac and organ shut down as the vet insisted the night before. We are well aware of the symptoms now and during these days of high 90's and 100 degree heat we keep fans on her and hose her down. Despite that, she succumb to another stoke last night. The on call vet literally stated that "we can not start IV fluids in the field." She is stable this morning but still not drinking water; her skin pull test indicates dehydration. She may simply need fluids or she may be shutting down, but her heart sound is so strong it is doubtful. We don't board, we own, and have years of experience and vet history and many IV's hung in our barn for one aliment or another. What is really going on? Save the high dollar horses first? Only so many vets per capita per region?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 1:33 pm:

Hi Maureen. I feel for you. I can feel the desperation in your voice and wish I could help. I hope by the time you read this the vet has been out. I have to say, I've never heard of a vet being unwilling to start in IV "in the field" in an emergency situation! Is there another vet around? Of course, on the weekend, it's tough to find one sometimes.

How is her temp? Has it gone down? Could there be any other cause for her problem than "heat stroke?" I ask, because we often have temps around 100 degrees and our horses, some of them old, don't have problems. They do have shade, and we don't have the humidity you have back East; but still...it just makes me wonder.

How is her respiration? Has she been eating and drinking good up to this point? Pooping? and it look normal?

We've lost several of our old brood mares in their late 20's to mid-30's. The ones that died of just "old age" had a gradual "shut down." The last thing that went was their desire to drink. I'd be doubtful that your mare was "shutting down" right now - at least from her age.

Do you have a good vet clinic within a few hrs drive? If you can't find anyone locally, maybe get her in the trailer, cover her with a wet cotton sheet, and drive to a clinic.

Good luck! If you have the time and can't find a vet, www.thehorse.com had an article on heat stroke some time ago and you might be able to find it.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 1:37 pm:

Maureen, do you have an Arab mare named Miss Scarlett? We used to raise Arabians and still have a few; your name rings a bell.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 1:39 pm:

If you're who I think you are and where I think you are (near Austin) these folks might be able to help you.

https://www.austinequine.com/
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 2:33 pm:

Wow even in the backwoods where I live the vets will give IV fluids.

My 31 yo mare went through something like this a few weeks ago when it was so hot and humid. I looked out the widow and she was grazing peacefully, next time I looked she was flat out in the pasture (in the sun) laying there soaked in sweat. She was not taking a nap. I got her up and she was a little wobbly, hosed her down, scraped, and stuck her in her stall with a fan. At supper she did not really want to eat and I hadn't seen her drink either. I made her a mash with alfalfa pellets (well watered down) with some treats thrown in(apples, carrots, licorice treats all her favorites) added some salt and lite salt and she sucked that down and it seemed to get her appetite and thirst going again. She has been fine since. Hope your mare recovers, until she can see a vet I would try about anything to get fluids in her... sometimes even adding a horse that drinks well in with them encourages them...That helped my gelding this winter

Good Luck
New Member:
modh

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 3:51 pm:

Sara... yes this is me... and yes, Miss Scarlet was our mare the article in Equus was published about.... so you know well my level of experience and frustration. This is beyond my comprehension! I have been by her side non stop since last night.

DianE, your description is a near same. She was fine. Only two hours earlier I hosed her down as I do daily in this heat. We went in to eat, came outside again maybe two hours later and she was down and from the grass and sand burrs in her tail and mane, she had been struggling.

Update, Called and demanded her original vet several times, he finally called back at 11AM, I told him she was stable, but still not drinking. What is strange about this episode though every symptom as two years ago (heat stroke), she has a normal temp, is pooping, urinating, heart is strong and even, good gut sounds, good capillary return, normal pink color gums and tongue, but very weak, wobbly, and glassy eyed. She showed pain spasms like colic but was "going", still is. No changes in feed, hay or pasture, no chemicals injested even a remote possibility. We've gotten OTC Jugs into her, and banamine, as I said, she stablized 100% from last night at about the time the vet called back this morning. I questioned this out of the blue never heard this before "can't administer IV's in the field" and he agreed with the E-vets call!!!
Going back to the barn to give her another "jug."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 4:07 pm:

If she is eating her hay can you water it down? that would get some fluids in her. Funny thing the other day I had some hay soaking in the yard, I had the old girl out there grazing, she went right over to the tub of water with the hay in it and started drinking the water and eating the hay...Is she still eating? maybe something like that would get her drinking if she is.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 5:10 pm:

Welcome Maureen,
I believe we can help you but let me get you started off right so you can get the best answer as quick as possible.

You will get more responses if you start your own discussion rather than post at the bottom on another member's discussion. Each discussion is "owned" by the original poster and all replies in that discussion should either directly or indirectly address the concerns of the original poster.

To start your own discussion back up one page using the navigation bar at the top of this page. This will be a Article Page on this topic. Below the article you will find a list of already existing discussions on this topic. Under this list you will find the "Start New Discussion" button. This is a good topic on your subject so you should first review the article as it will have important information on your subject. Next check the titles of the already existing discussions to see if your question has already been answered.

If your question remains unanswered, now is the time to Start a New Discussion. Select a short title that describes your specific concern. A title like "Help!!!" does not help others find your specific topic. Instead something like "Ace for Colic?" allows others to rapidly find and understand what your topic is about just by viewing the title. This is likely to bring more responses from those with some experience with your topic and allows members to find answers to their questions quicker.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 9:57 pm:

Maureen, how is your mare? Still improving? I'm still dumbfounded at the response you've gotten from your vets! Good thing you have the knowledge you do or you'd probably have lost your mare by now. I hope you have a good night - you and your mare both.
New Member:
modh

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 10:17 pm:

Thank you! Thank you Dr O... forgive the newbie as someone who would even pay for a help service this morning if doing so could help save one of my kids... Update for Sara and DianE... she finally drank water just about an hour ago... probably the first time I felt I could breathe since last night. She seemed to improve a little bit after the 2nd "JUG." I can't even tell you all how much it means to me that there are a few people "out there" who care, and I felt it big time. This gal wouldn't be alive today if a vet didn't think he could save her life as a baby... and the IV's were started right in the stall. Thank you again all. Good night : )
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 10:44 pm:

Good news, I hope she continues to improve. I think when most of us signed up for this site it was in desperation. It's a good knowledgeable place worth sticking around for. Even with the 40 some years I have in with horses now it is amazing what I don't know, and am still learning every day. Dr.O. and the amazing experience of all the members make it worth every penny.

Please keep us updated of her progress I have an old mare too, and after her little episode a couple weeks ago it worries me a bit.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2010 - 11:46 pm:

I'm so glad she's improving!

I think you will find most on this board really care about their animals, and many of us have had serious problems. I've had horses almost all my life,(67 yrs) and am still learning. I read all the posts even if I don't comment. You never know; next time around you could have the same problem.

You can read about Libby and Beaulima and some of my other "sagas" if you do a search. Many others have had long, involved "sagas" of their own. You'll find you have lots of good company here. There's also good reference material on this site, and Dr. O is quite knowledgable himself!

I know when I was up all night with an injured or sick horse, trying to find answers and feeling frustrated; or when I lost a dear old friend, it really helped just to know there was someone else out there who understood.

What other horses do you have now? Are you still showing, or just enjoying them?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Aug 22, 2010 - 7:29 am:

Good Morning Maureen,

I am glad things are looking better for your mare.

Like Sara I try to read everything, and I also try to post a word or two of encouragement even when it's something I have never dealt with before. Even if you don't get many cyber hugs or prayers, you can be assured many HA'ers are thinking of you and your mare, just not everyone takes time to post.

I hope you got some rest.
Member:
canter

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 7:30 am:

Maureen, how is your mare? I hope she continued to improve over the weekend and all is now well. Please let us know.
New Member:
modh

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 6:02 pm:

You're all really wonderful! We can't be certain since no blood work or seasoned aged horse vet examined her, but we're almost certain this was another heat stoke. She is back to "normal" which is a very healthy functioning mare despite her age.

I'm not sure where else to write about her now since I started on this "thread?" so if any of you have a suggestion how to update after this don't hesitate to push me in the right direction.

Now that we are out of the high stress emergency mode I hope sharing the following connects with others who care for our seriously senior horses. We don't want her to suffer, and each time (now twice) she goes into what appears to be a shut down (at least diagnosed by the E-vet two years ago, thus his diagnosis of dying and to put her down) as an owner, this call is excruciating. The first time, we didn't trust the call unless her regular vet made the call. We were right to stick to our instincts. This time, again, we couldn't know unless she was examined.

This is our dilemma: Had we hauled her to the vet on duty, the call would have been put her down. I have no doubt in my mind. There are so many considerations I don't know where to begin. When it's time, we don't want it to happen in the clinic. Logistically, what do we do DR O? She deserves the dignity of euthanasia where we plan to bury her. Hauling a trembling weak wobbly old lady in a trailer just to have an on call vet tell us what is their opinion given age and presenting symptoms, we would have to reload, haul her back home and wait for her regular vet to return to work, in this case the following morning, and then wait in line for an availability to come out to our barn.

What happened this weekend beat us in the head with a reality we need to address. Now we know we cannot trust that anyone will make a "field call" for her after hours. Reality suggests an unspoken protocol; viable or highly likely to survive emergencies will be seen first. So what does an owner do?

I'm highly trained in medicine and practiced many years as a vet tech. However, even 40 years of every conceivable emergency does not give me the skill of a field tech or vet who sticks a vein 20 times a day and/or starts fluids. Even the vets have had a hard time hitting her jugular just for a coggins pull. I'm modestly successful sticking a vein easy to palpate. But I will not even attempt to stick and miss several times even in a crisis to administer banimine. So she has to wait for it to take effect IM like most of us do only as a measure to relieve pain until the vet arrives.

We don't want to put down a 30's plus old horse when they are functioning, eating, alert and happy. To do this while they are fine, like my mare today would feel to me like murder. The frightening reality of this weekend is that we are left without resources when there is a crisis, which like most of us know, happens after hours.

As owners, some of us read everything, try to be the best educated and experienced owners for our horses as well as to be prepared and knowlegable to assist our attending veterinarian(s) and we hope that we matter. This weekend, it feels like I lost my faith and worse, trust.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 7:17 pm:

Maureen,
Thank you for this posting!
I had the exact same thing happen here last week.I got shakey just reading your horse's symptoms. My 4yo OTTB was fine at breakfast, but when I went out a couple of hours later, he was up & down, up & down, had a vacant look in his eyes, labored breathing, heavy sweat, agitated, and I knew he was in big trouble. I cursed a lot when I went to the meds cabinet and there was no banamine, gave 2 clicks of bute, kept him up walking (he manured) and then gave him a good long shower, scraped him off and once I was convinced he would survive, put him in the barn with fans and soaked hay.3 water buckets... one with electrolytes, one with mountain dew and the last laced with WallyWorld green/white mints (that one was teh winner).It took a few hours, of splashing water at his mouth, but he finally came round. Thing is, it wasn't all THAT hot. We have had a lot worse in the past month. Within 24 hours he was jumping around and playing like nothing ever happened. I slept in the barn that night, so it is safe to say he was in better shape than I was the next day! Until I read your post just now, I did not know what happened or why, so I thank you very much for putting it out there. Bet the next one of us will remember this and hopefully create the same good outcome we got.I attacked the symptoms, what else was there to do???Didn't know why I was doing it,but got VERY VERY lucky. SO glad you are out of the woods too! I have no cell reception here so there was no vet or anyone else to call for help.
The old wing and a prayer treatment.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 7:34 pm:

Maureen that is the hardest part of owning the seniors. There have been times I really wondered about my old girl... am I making her suffer? When should I decide to have her put down..just what are the deciding factors?? To me it is very individual, we all know our horses well, we all want them around for as long as possible.

My old girl has arthritis and every fall I start thinking that our cold winters are going to be brutal on her and every winter she fools me I toss it around in my head once in awhile when she looks a little uncomfortable, which is never for very long.

So what to do can only be ans. by them and the owner. I don't have very good vet care available either, my husband is good with a gun and if worse came to worse that is the way it would be done. Not only can our seniors have something life threatening happen so can a young horse.

I try not to worry about it and go day to day that seems to be the best way.

VERY glad to hear your mare is on the mend
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 7:45 pm:

Maureen,

You sound like a very educated and compassionate horse owner wanting to do the best you can for your horses. I can understand your frustration because I have been through it myself. I have had horses on deaths door or with problems that most people wouldn't deal with and vets tell me it wasn't worth keeping the horse alive, but I did anyway and in most cases the horses got well and made it back to the races.

To a vet his time is money, he or she looks at an animal from a different perspective, they are not in the emotional state most horse owners are in when they have a seriously ill horse and they look at the situation more objectively than we do. I think they have to or they would not be able to do their jobs. It also may not be what you want to hear at the time.

You make the decisions for your horses, but if you are like me you will know when to make that final decision because you will realize that the quality of life is what's important. If your mare's quality of life is good then it is not yet time to make that decision. She in her own way will tell you when its time and when it is the time it won't be in a strange place with strange people, it will be with her family in a familiar place. You made the right decision by not putting her on the trailer, and she made the decision to keep on living. She'll probably live to be forty and just every once in a while give you a good scare just to keep you on your toes. Most of the good ones do.

Here's to many more years with her, I am so glad she's feeling better.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 8:37 pm:

Nice to read the updated post that she is doing better. I haven't had to deal with a senior horse being something seemed to happen to them no later than early 20's, but as others know, you will know when it's time, and it don't sound like it's your ol' girls time yet!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2010 - 8:50 pm:

Maureen, as others have stated, you will know. If you know your horse, she will tell you. I have been in the position of having to make that dreaded call many times, and in each case, the animal told me. Her eyes, her manerisms, etc. will let you know. On the other hand, I own one mare that I had three good vets tell me I needed to put down. She told me otherwise. She and I fought through her problems and several years later she is still going strong. Don't worry about it. Enjoy the time you have with your mare. Old mares are wonderful and special and a gift imo. I might add they also have a rather perverse sense of humor, if you want to call it that. Like Rachael, I have spent many sleepless nights in the barn worrying over a seemingly "on her last legs" horse with some unknown ailment, only to have her a day or two later bright eyed and calmly munching away, bossing all the other "low lifes" in the barn. They seem to like to make sure you are paying attention!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 7:42 am:

Maureen, you could cut and paste the relevant information into a new post. See my last post for more information. Once it is started I will clean this discussion up.
DrO
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